New Bounce Cards

Well, since we probably won't get any more reprints, we should maybe get some new cards that do old stuff. Here is my take on a new bounce card. Seeing past the cloak Reaction Cost X blood X is the same as the acting minion's current stealth Only usable when you are being bled, after blocks are declined. Tap this reacting vampire. Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the acting minion. The acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah. As above, and gain 2 blood if your prey is successfully bleed.

Please don't design another bouncecard on an inferior discipline. Deflection is strong enough. I don't think we need another of this on aus, which even can be played with zero bloodcost . Your AUS-version is even worse for the game. It is a huge advantage to defend versus a bleed AND have the benefit to put pressure on the prey (both does a bouncecard). On superior auspex you plan to give the bouncing minion and his Methuselah even more gifts in gaining two blood if the plan works out nicely. Urgh, disgusting . Baron of Frankfurt

yeah. It's defenatly to strong. How about this. Seeing past the cloak Reaction Cost X blood X is the same as the acting minion's current stealth Only usable when you are being bled with at least 2 stealth, after blocks are declined. Tap this reacting vampire. Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the acting minion. The acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah. As above, and gain 2 blood if your prey is successfully bleed. Now you have to try to block before you can bounce. The motive for the card is that new players, without any bounce cards, can use it.

> Baaliprimogen wrote: > The motive for the card is that new players, without any bounce cards, can use it. > Uh? Might be just me, but I dont understand this at all. Finnish Politics!

I don't get that either, but anyway we do not need to be introducing more bounce cards into the game. Auspex has Telepathic Misdirection, it is powerful, it is common and it can be fairly easily obtained (most established players can spare a newbie something like 8-16 copies which is more than enough for a deck or two). Auspex is the discipline of "defence against actions", they already have plenty of intercept cards, plenty of pool defence (flick & reduce) and hand manipulation... Not to be too brutal, but this card is not needed and detrimental to the game (it makes wall decks even harder to oust). Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

No eBay APP ID défined in Kunena configuration > > Lönkka wrote: > > > Baaliprimogen wrote: > > The motive for the card is that new players, without any bounce cards, can use it. > > > Uh? > Might be just me, but I dont understand this at all. > Same here. There is no supply problem with Telepathic Misdirection. Even not-so-old players have plenty to give away, and you can find some cheap on ebay: There are not more for sale because they are near worthless, not because they are rare. There is no need for a new bounce.

It's okay that you don't like the card. Maybe it's quite powerfull. I don't see the card as a boost to wall deck, but a drawback to stealth bleeders. That was the motive for it. Maybe this is not the card for it. That's okay. The other motive was to make new cards instead of reprints. If future VTES cards will be printed on PDF-files, and there will be no reprints, it would be a good idea to make new "old" cards. Cards that do the same as before, just slightly different, and does not break any copyright laws. If we make a 4ed. expansion, new players may emerge by it self. (hopefully)

Rather than more bounce cards to defend against stealth bleed, maybe designers should think about something half-way between bounce and reduction: bleed cancellation. Bleed bounce does two things: it cancels a bleed against you and makes another Methuselah have to deal with the same bleed. The limitations are that the bleed can be bounced back to you and that bleed bounce is useless when there are only two players left in the game. I would like to see bleed cancellation be introduced into the game as opposed to new bounce cards. In other words, I would like the defense without the crazy offense of Deflection. Something like: Paralyzing Glance Reaction 1 blood Tap this reacting vampire. Reduce a bleed against you by 2. Tap this reacting vampire. Cause a bleed against you to fail. It gives FoS and Brujah/!Brujah bleed defense besides grafted Dominate. It fits the flavor of Presence. Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection are still better.

Not a fan of bleed cancellation cards. Good thing with bleed bounce is that it makes games go forward. Bleed cancellation just adds more stall and timeouts. Offence should be encouraged. Problem with bounce that it is available only for AUS or dom (also don't like so much deflections no tap clause with DOM). I wouldn't mind to see one more bounce card (maybe for OBF) but not as strong as current versions.

I was thinking about a way to "help" decks without AUS or dom to withstand heavy bleed stealth decks. I came to this: Name: Unexpected Assistance Cardtype: Reaction Discipline: Presence The acting minion may move 1 blood from him or her to this reacting vampire to get +1 bleed. Only one Unexpected Assistance may be played each action. The acting minion gets +1 bleed. Only one Unexpected Assistance may be played each action. Presence is quite a widely spread discipline. The key thing is that at PRE, the acting vampire gets +1 bleed. A bleed for 3 becomes a bleed for 4... meaning Archon Investigation is not far. Therefore, your predator may hesitate before bleeding you with Govern the Unaligned... Otherwise, it can be used a crossbuddy reciprocal help (1 blood against +1 bleed). Furthermore, it won't make tables stall... Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > I was thinking about a way to "help" decks without AUS or dom to withstand heavy bleed stealth decks. > > I came to this: > > Name: Unexpected Assistance > Cardtype: Reaction > Discipline: Presence > The acting minion may move 1 blood from him or her to this reacting vampire to get +1 bleed. Only one Unexpected Assistance may be played each action. > The acting minion gets +1 bleed. Only one Unexpected Assistance may be played each action. > > Presence is quite a widely spread discipline. > The key thing is that at PRE, the acting vampire gets +1 bleed. A bleed for 3 becomes a bleed for 4... meaning Archon Investigation is not far. Therefore, your predator may hesitate before bleeding you with Govern the Unaligned... > Otherwise, it can be used a crossbuddy reciprocal help (1 blood against +1 bleed). > Furthermore, it won't make tables stall... > With that card you are expecting to get heavy bleeder as your predator? Better just pack pack bounce then. But I like +1 bleed to any minion. I would like to see card to benefit your minions also and make it more usefull. My version: Control the Masses Cardtype: Reaction/Action Modifier +1 bleed. You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed amount. Reduce a bleed against you by 1 or the acting minion gets +1 bleed. Only one Control the Masses may be played each action. Could lose the reduce if too strong. Wouldn't want to make it cost blood tho. Reduce could also be and +1 bleed .

I feel like the ability to add bleed to another methuselah's minion sounds very or . Maybe it should be a combo with one or both of those and presence? Unexpected Assistance +1 bleed. You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed amount. The acting minion gets +1 bleed. The acting minion gets -1 bleed. Now there isn't a precedent for a card structured like this... but I like to think outside the box Also, on that note, I would like to address a point the OP made. The impetus for creating this card was to make a new card that could take the place of an existing card. This assumes that reprinting old cards will not be an option and will become more difficult to obtain. In that respect, it would be necessary to create a whole new base set of cards. There are some issues with that. If we had to do something like that, you can bet we would need some new deckbuilding rules. For example, if we need to print six new stealth cards for obfuscate you shouldn't be able to use old ones with new ones. We really don't want to see players dropping 16 stealth against 15 intercept. If it comes down to that, we will need groupings for new library cards. IE, we won't be able to mix new base set cards with old cards (but new "expansion" cards should be usable with old cards and new base cards. Thinking that far ahead now isn't such a bad idea. But if new cards are distributed print-n-play style then it's not as much an issue, because VEKN cards can be updated and reprinted. Also, if cards are to be legal for play in tournaments, maybe there should be a "version" printed on cards so we know they are up to date when played. That's a formatting issue, but something to consider. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > I feel like the ability to add bleed to another methuselah's minion sounds very or . > > Maybe it should be a combo with one or both of those and presence? > Maybe, but the goal is to make it accessible. Dementation and chimestry are not widespread disciplines. Presence fits not to badly. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Surreal wrote: > With that card you are expecting to get heavy bleeder as your predator? Better just pack pack bounce then. > Lol. I wrote just before > Ankha wrote: > I was thinking about a way to "help" decks without AUS or dom to withstand heavy bleed stealth decks. > Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I think this might be an interesting card: Blow Through Reaction. Only usable when a bleed of 3 or more against you would be successful. for: tap this reacting vampire. The acting vampire bleeds you for 2 (bleed not reducable.) If you are not ousted, the action continues at -2 bleed, directed at your prey. FOR: as above, but you are only bled for 1. What I like about it: - it's different - it's something for FOR clans like Ishtarri, Samedi, Gangrel, and Ravnos to do other than die to DOM or splash deflections - but it still doesn't compete with "real" bounce. - It's in theme for fortitude and isn't "prevent damage" Text may need a bit of tweaking to handle the "last 2 players" case, not sure. I also like this idea: Cut the Puppet Strings Action The acting Sabbat vampire enters combat with a minion controlled by your predator or prey. If that minion successfully bled you since your last turn, +1 stealth. If that minion has Dominate, untap this vampire. Rush as bleed defense had been done before, but I like the theme here. Sabbat are supposed to be all about being angry and throwing off the oppressive collar of the antedeluvians, after all. ... and, frequently the issue for a rush deck with dominate behind it is that rush is just too slow. That's the exact situation where an extra untap can be very useful. I'm also amused by the interaction with DOM Obedience. As for the Presence suggestions: I honestly don't think Pre needs an assist in this area. Presence clans are: - Ventrue and Toreador, who already have bounce. - Brujah, who are doing just fine due to Second Tradition, out-of-clan Dominate, and great vampires. - Ishtarri, who would be better served by help in Fortitude. - !Brujah, who need help of their own, but need to get it in a way that doesn't make Brujah any more powerful. - Setites, who shouldn't get easy access to bounce for the good of all.

> finbury wrote: > Cut the Puppet Strings > Action > The acting Sabbat vampire enters combat with a minion controlled by your predator or prey. If that minion successfully bled you since your last turn, +1 stealth. If that minion has Dominate, untap this vampire. > While this card is a bit too much of a drastic anti-card for my taste, something like it should be considered. I played the swedish nationals this weekend, and Dominate was insanely dominant (*raggadish*) 1st table: 2 decks with Dominate (the 2 was headsup) 2nd table: 2 decks with Dominate 3rd table: 5 decks with Dominate Final: 4 decks with dominate (And the winner had Dominate) Touch of Clarity is nice anti-dominate-tech, but other tries at that has kind of failed (Iron Heart, Purification etc.) It would be nice with some solid WoD-flavor for this though. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

I always wish there was some card like this, kinda like a last ditch effort to live card. Will of the methuselah, Reaction, 1 blood, C Only usable by a vampire with capacity above 6. Reduce a bleed against you to 0 and this reacting vampire takes one unpreventable damage for each point of bleed the acting minion has when this card is played. If you want nerf, make it cost 2 blood and it becomes cornercase =). Ivan - Maybe this?

> Myrdin wrote: > Will of the methuselah, Reaction, 1 blood, C > Only usable by a vampire with capacity above 6. Reduce a bleed against you to 0 and this reacting vampire takes one unpreventable damage for each point of bleed the acting minion has when this card is played. > I would like some kind of "Only usable when you are being ousted"-wording also. Then it become kind of a Golconda - sacrifice a big vamp to survive. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

I don't think we need more bounce cards, what's already available is more than enough. I'd very much like to see bleed reduction more viable though, for example - mixing two effects, like +1 intercept on basic, reduce bleed by whatever on superior. currently bleed reduction kinda blows, since these cards dont offer any alternative, specifically - they become a dead slot if your predator is basing on politics or some other non-bleed strategy.

okay, here is one: No, you can't!!! reaction Only usable on a action against you. The acting minion gets -1 stealth. Only usable on a bleed against you, or a political action. Reduce the acting minion's stealth to 0. The minion may still increase his or her stealth. A mix between Scobax and Draba. Cost less, more limitations and requiering two disciplines.

> Baaliprimogen wrote: > okay, here is one: > > No, you can't!!! > reaction > Only usable on a action against you. The acting minion gets -1 stealth. > Only usable on a bleed against you, or a political action. Reduce the acting minion's stealth to 0. The minion may still increase his or her stealth. > > A mix between Scobax and Draba. Cost less, more limitations and requiering two disciplines. > Uh? Potence presence to generate "intercept"? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > Baaliprimogen wrote: > > A mix between Scobax and Draba. Cost less, more limitations and requiering two disciplines. > > > Uh? Potence presence to generate "intercept"? > I agree, this is not good. We still need some predictability. All disciplines should not be able to do everything. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> dude_PL wrote: > I don't think we need more bounce cards, what's already available is more than enough. I'd very much like to see bleed reduction more viable though, for example - mixing two effects, like +1 intercept on basic, reduce bleed by whatever on superior. currently bleed reduction kinda blows, since these cards dont offer any alternative, specifically - they become a dead slot if your predator is basing on politics or some other non-bleed strategy. > Yes, a Auspex card with 1 blood cost and inf +1 intercept and sup reduce 1 (or even 2?) would maybe be both playable and not to strong. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > dude_PL wrote: > > I don't think we need more bounce cards, what's already available is more than enough. I'd very much like to see bleed reduction more viable though, for example - mixing two effects, like +1 intercept on basic, reduce bleed by whatever on superior. currently bleed reduction kinda blows, since these cards dont offer any alternative, specifically - they become a dead slot if your predator is basing on politics or some other non-bleed strategy. > > > Yes, a Auspex card with 1 blood cost and inf +1 intercept and sup reduce 1 (or even 2?) would maybe be both playable and not to strong. > +1 intercept at most often is free. Reduce by 2 at is also free. Why should there be a blood cost? pckvtes.wordpress.com

It does not give you intercept. It's the intimidated effect of an acting minion. You could get +2 intercept with pack tactics, and that doesn't require a disciplin.

"-1 stealth" is more strong effect than "+1 intercept", because it technically gives each minion +1 intercept. And there is a gap in logic: how does potence or presence reduce stealth? How can a vampire intimidate an acting minion if he can't track him?

> Amenophobis wrote: > Yes, a Auspex card with 1 blood cost and inf +1 intercept and sup reduce 1 (or even 2?) would maybe be both playable and not to strong. > +1 intercept at most often is free. Reduce by 2 at is also free. Why should there be a blood cost?[/quote] Because of the versatility. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

If you are affraid, then you might f*ck up

> Ashur wrote: > > > Amenophobis wrote: > > Yes, a Auspex card with 1 blood cost and inf +1 intercept and sup reduce 1 (or even 2?) would maybe be both playable and not to strong. > > > +1 intercept at most often is free. > Reduce by 2 at is also free. > > Why should there be a blood cost? > Because of the versatility.[/quote] Honestly, I can see it being used as a free card with +1 intercept, Reduce a bleed against you by 2 or burn 1 to reduce a bleed against any Methuselah. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Baaliprimogen wrote: > No, you can't!!! > reaction > [pot] Only usable on a action against you. The acting minion gets -1 stealth. > [POT] Only usable on a bleed against you, or a political action. Reduce the acting minion's stealth to 0. The minion may still increase his or her stealth. > > Baaliprimogen wrote: > If you are affraid, then you might f*ck up > How about this variant: No, you can't! [action] [pot] Put this card on a minion. That minion gets -1 stealth on bleed actions. [POT] Put this card on a minion. That minion can't play action modifiers to increase stealth during bleed and political actions. -- That's would be intimidation. A vampire comes to target minion and with his high charisma and strength persuades him not to f*** up with serious people. (add blood cost and stealth as needed) I think that a methuselah is somebody who can track the events in general, but it is diffucult for him to interact with "small" events. He can track a vampire's heaven, but can't say where that vampire is at this moment.

> Baaliprimogen wrote: > If you are affraid, then you might f*ck up > Yeah! Potence rulez! There should be a potence card that gives +2 bleed. Because when you destroy a building at breakfast, the methuselah owning it loses power. And make vampires abstain, because they're freaking afraid of being smashed for making the "wrong" decision. And make action fails. Noone wants to get his arms torn apart for doing something that may annoy Beast. There should be a bleed redirection in potence too. You don't want to hack Enkidu's computer, do you? And a card that gives you pool from other players, to keep Lorrie in a good mood. In fact, potence replaces every discipline. Need to get informations from someone? A good beating does the trick. Need to pass those security doors? Just tear them open. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > Baaliprimogen wrote: > > If you are affraid, then you might f*ck up > > > Yeah! Potence rulez! > > There should be a potence card that gives +2 bleed. Because when you destroy a building at breakfast, the methuselah owning it loses power. > And make vampires abstain, because they're freaking afraid of being smashed for making the "wrong" decision. > And make action fails. Noone wants to get his arms torn apart for doing something that may annoy Beast. > There should be a bleed redirection in potence too. You don't want to hack Enkidu's computer, do you? > And a card that gives you pool from other players, to keep Lorrie in a good mood. > > In fact, potence replaces every discipline. Need to get informations from someone? A good beating does the trick. Need to pass those security doors? Just tear them open. > Those are all great background justifications if it ever becomes apparent that making those effects available to Potence is justified from a game balance point of view. I don't think that anyone's implying that justification by background equals balance.