City Archives - The Deep Levels
Cost: 3 pool
Master: unique location. Hunting ground.
During your untap phase, you may tap City Archives - The Deep Levels to move 1 blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control, or to remove a card in your preys ash heap from the game.
A vampire can gain blood from only one hunting ground card each turn.
Too good? Try this:
City Archives - The Deep Levels
Cost: 2 pool
Master: unique location.
During your untap phase, you may tap City Archives - The Deep Levels and burn 1 blood from a ready vampire you control to remove a card in your preys ash heap from the game.
Or something like that.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Ashur wrote:
> City Archives - The Deep Levels
> Cost: 3 pool
> Master: unique location. Hunting ground.
> During your untap phase, you may tap City Archives - The Deep Levels to move 1 blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control, or to remove a card in your preys ash heap from the game.
> A vampire can gain blood from only one hunting ground card each turn.
>
> Too good?
>
No, I would even make it (for 3 pool)
City Archives - The Deep Levels
Cost: 3 pool
Master: unique location. Hunting ground.
During your untap phase, you may tap City Archives - The Deep Levels and remove a card in your prey's ash heap from the game to move 1 blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control. A vampire can gain blood from only one hunting ground card each turn.
It has a double effect (remove a card from the ash heap + gain a blood) but cannot be used when your prey's ash heap is empty.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I like the card idea and Ankha's suggestion.
I really like the name of the card. But shouldn't have ancient, big, forgotten city archives a different effect, more related to wisdom and information and not to blood gaining and robbing of resources? As I saw the title of the thread "tap to draw X cards" immediately popped up in my mind. Or an "exchange an action-card from your hand with an action-card in your library" or sth. like that.
Baron of Frankfurt
I can think of other ways to use the title.
The card concept, well I can think of other titles.
City Archives
Master
2 pool
Master Location.
Once per turn you may tap this and burn a blood on a vampire you control to move a card from your ashheap to your hand (discard afterwards). You may not tap this card during combat.
Every City has Alleys
Master
2 pool
Master Location. Hunting Ground.
A Methuselah may not control more than one copy of this card. You may not control this card and any unique Hunting Ground.
During your untap phase, you may tap this card and give a vampire you control 1 blood; a vampire may only gain blood from 1 hunting ground per turn. When a vampire you control successfully completes a hunt action, you may tap this card to give them an additional blood.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
It has probably similar levels of power to Spirit Summoning Chamber; requires you to basically swap cards from ashheap for hand, costs 1 blood on a vampire, can happen once per 'circuit of the table'.
For a comparison:
Spirit Summoning Chamber
Type: Master
Requires: Tremere antitribu
Cost: 2 pool
Master: unique location.
Tap this card and burn 1 blood from a ready Tremere antitribu you control to search your library for a minion card that requires Thaumaturgy [tha]. Show that card to all players and put it in your hand. Discard down and shuffle afterward.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> I can think of other ways to use the title.
> The card concept, well I can think of other titles.
>
> City Archives
> Master
> 2 pool
> Master Location.
> Once per turn you may tap this and burn a blood on a vampire you control to move a card from your ashheap to your hand (discard afterwards). You may not tap this card during combat.
>
Quite strange suggestion coming from someone who said:
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
>
> > LunaSlave wrote:
> > Recycling Plant
> > Master: Unique Location. Brujah Antitribu.
> > Cost: 1
> > Tap during your discard phase to move the bottom card of your library to the top of your library.
> >
> Um, Waste Management + this card = customise hand. Too powerful.
>
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> alek wrote:
> I like Ankha proposition. The name of the card could be changed, but it doesn't matters much.
> Juggernaut version of City Archives is very overpowered.
>
I agree. Taking a Villein or Pentex Subversion from ash heap is too strong.
If you want it to be a card re-cycler, then you could limit to minion cards or even action cards:
City Archives
Master
2 pool
Master Location.
Once per turn you may tap this and burn a blood on a vampire you control to move an action card from your ash heap to your hand (discard afterwards). You may not tap this card during combat.
----
Banging trashcans, breaking windows
We'll wake you up tonight
We like the good time, we scream and shout
And that's what fun's about
> Pendargon wrote:
> I like Ankha's solution, and i really like the card. Bloodline clans really could use some hunting ground other than Kingston penitentiary, Ontario
>
Thanks.
Just as a quick note, True Brujah and !Salubri already have their hunting ground-like cards (namely Tabriz Assembly and Code of Samiel). Samedi have Houngan (cheap, but limited to 1 vampire).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> City Archives
> Master
> 2 pool
> Master Location.
> Once per turn you may tap this and burn a blood on a vampire you control to move a card from your ashheap to your hand (discard afterwards). You may not tap this card during combat.
>
This the type of card a do not want to see in VTES. Ash heap manipulation should be very, very restricted, as it were up until a couple of years ago. I came to think of ...
Vlad´s Gym
Master
Brujah
2 pool
Master Location.
Tap this card during combat and burn a blood on a vampire you control to move an combat card from your ash heap to your hand (discard afterwards). Only usable at the end of a round of combat. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going to torpor.
... although that might be to strong too.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
I like yours, Ashur. Restricting it to combat cards should keep it balanced. You should probably add that the blood must come from the fighting vampire, as it seems to be your intent.
Vlad´s Gym
Master
Brujah
2 pool
Master Location.
Tap this card at the end of a round of combat involving a vampire (Brujah?) you control and burn a blood from that vampire to move a combat card he played in that round back from your ash heap to your hand (discard afterwards). Not usable by a vampire being burned or going to torpor.
> Ashur wrote:
> This the type of card a do not want to see in VTES. Ash heap manipulation should be very, very restricted, as it were up until a couple of years ago. I came to think of ...
>
> Vlad´s Gym
> Master
> Brujah
> 2 pool
> Master Location.
> Tap this card during combat and burn a blood on a vampire you control to move an combat card from your ash heap to your hand (discard afterwards). Only usable at the end of a round of combat. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going to torpor.
>
> ... although that might be to strong too.
>
Repeated Majesty/Staredown for new Brujah royalty? Quite strong. How about giving it to the poor old !Brujah and changing it to "<Do X> to exchange a combat card in your ash heap for a combat card in your hand"?
> Suoli wrote:
>
> > Ashur wrote:
> > This the type of card a do not want to see in VTES. Ash heap manipulation should be very, very restricted, as it were up until a couple of years ago. I came to think of ...
> >
> > Vlad´s Gym
> > Master
> > Brujah
> > 2 pool
> > Master Location.
> > Tap this card during combat and burn a blood on a vampire you control to move an combat card from your ash heap to your hand (discard afterwards). Only usable at the end of a round of combat. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going to torpor.
> >
> > ... although that might be to strong too.
> >
> Repeated Majesty/Staredown for new Brujah royalty? Quite strong. How about giving it to the poor old !Brujah and changing it to "<Do X> to exchange a combat card in your ash heap for a combat card in your hand"?
>
!Brujahs need all help you can give.
Changing a combat card to combat card would do good for combat decks.
----
Banging trashcans, breaking windows
We'll wake you up tonight
We like the good time, we scream and shout
And that's what fun's about
> Suoli wrote:
>
> > Ashur wrote:
> > This the type of card a do not want to see in VTES. Ash heap manipulation should be very, very restricted, as it were up until a couple of years ago. I came to think of ...
> >
> > Vlad´s Gym
> > Master
> > Brujah
> > 2 pool
> > Master Location.
> > Tap this card during combat and burn a blood on a vampire you control to move an combat card from your ash heap to your hand (discard afterwards). Only usable at the end of a round of combat. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going to torpor.
> >
> > ... although that might be to strong too.
> >
> Repeated Majesty/Staredown for new Brujah royalty? Quite strong. How about giving it to the poor old !Brujah and changing it to "<Do X> to exchange a combat card in your ash heap for a combat card in your hand"?
>
Mmm, ok, but not still 2 pool cost then?
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
Constant Immortal Grapples?
Jacko Grapples, 2x H1 (or more), Taste, Take up Grapple.
Range is close, Grapple, 2x H1 (but probably more)...
That sounds fairly broken to me.
Boris/Ashur, why do both of you believe that the only way to help Brujah-Antis is to give them card recursion? This isn't the first card recrusion for the Brujah-Anti we've seen proposed. They already have their own clan-specific card recursion tech, why should they be given more?
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> > I can think of other ways to use the title.
> > The card concept, well I can think of other titles.
> >
> > City Archives
> > Master
> > 2 pool
> > Master Location.
> > Once per turn you may tap this and burn a blood on a vampire you control to move a card from your ashheap to your hand (discard afterwards). You may not tap this card during combat.
> >
> Quite strange suggestion coming from someone who said:
>
> > Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> >
> > > LunaSlave wrote:
> > > Recycling Plant
> > > Master: Unique Location. Brujah Antitribu.
> > > Cost: 1
> > > Tap during your discard phase to move the bottom card of your library to the top of your library.
> > >
> > Um, Waste Management + this card = customise hand. Too powerful.
> >
Because Ankha, I can see the value of this (City Archive) card being available to *every* clan, and not just a !Brujah toy. Also, as a general location it should cost more (i.e. 2 pool). It also means that if it is such an "automatic inclusion" it will be more likely to be contested like Dreams of the Sphinx, Pentex, Ivory Bow, etc. That also mitigates its power. It should probably be unique as well.
Do I have a problem with card recursion: No. Do I have an issue with being able to rebuild your library to hold exactly what you want in the late game? Yes. That was my problem with Waste Management plus the proposed card, the ability to completely customise your hand and library throughout the game.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Boris/Ashur, why do both of you believe that the only way to help
>
I don´t. What makes you think that? There are plenty of ways. My point is that card recursion should be restricted. One way of doing that is to limit it to certain clans, for certain card types.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Do I have a problem with card recursion: No. Do I have an issue with being able to rebuild your library to hold exactly what you want in the late game? Yes. That was my problem with Waste Management plus the proposed card, the ability to completely customise your hand and library throughout the game.
>
This I agree with though. It is also a problem with those damned Tablets.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Constant Immortal Grapples?
> Jacko Grapples, 2x H1 (or more), Taste, Take up Grapple.
> Range is close, Grapple, 2x H1 (but probably more)...
>
> That sounds fairly broken to me.
>
Not significantly more broken than permanent Signposts, Bum's Rushes, additional strikes etc. Grapple is just one more card in the chain. In a combat deck, it doesn't matter which part of the transient chain you replace with a permanent effect, the end result is pretty much the same: increased consistency. This card basically bolts a combat special on one of your minions once per turn. Compared to usual combat specials, it has the huge advantage of versatility and the huge downside of being a unique master (!) in a !Brujah combat deck. It's a great 1-of for a pretty weak deck category.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> > > I can think of other ways to use the title.
> > > The card concept, well I can think of other titles.
> > >
> > > City Archives
> > > Master
> > > 2 pool
> > > Master Location.
> > > Once per turn you may tap this and burn a blood on a vampire you control to move a card from your ashheap to your hand (discard afterwards). You may not tap this card during combat.
> > >
> > Quite strange suggestion coming from someone who said:
> >
> > > Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > LunaSlave wrote:
> > > > Recycling Plant
> > > > Master: Unique Location. Brujah Antitribu.
> > > > Cost: 1
> > > > Tap during your discard phase to move the bottom card of your library to the top of your library.
> > > >
> > > Um, Waste Management + this card = customise hand. Too powerful.
> > >
> > >
> >
> Because Ankha, I can see the value of this (City Archive) card being available to *every* clan, and not just a !Brujah toy. Also, as a general location it should cost more (i.e. 2 pool). It also means that if it is such an "automatic inclusion" it will be more likely to be contested like Dreams of the Sphinx, Pentex, Ivory Bow, etc. That also mitigates its power. It should probably be unique as well.
>
If you want to avoid auto-inclusion, do not leave it available to everyone in the first place. Making it unique or what else won't make it less autoinclude if it's a strong card (and what you're suggesting is a very strong card).
Furthermore, it is much more easier to make it balanced if it's restricted to a clan.
>
> Do I have a problem with card recursion: No. Do I have an issue with being able to rebuild your library to hold exactly what you want in the late game? Yes. That was my problem with Waste Management plus the proposed card, the ability to completely customise your hand and library throughout the game.
>
There must be something wrong somewhere. Your suggestion allows far more easily to completely customize your hand and yet you say that you're against that? There's a big contradiction there.
And don't tell me that it's customizing the bottom of your library that is broken.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Actually, I'd prefer it to be a near-auto-include in decks than not. If its going to be created, I'd want it to appear on every table and be contested regularly. I would want that thought to come into the card's design.
Read me carefully Ankha, I am not against card recursion. I am against the idea that any one clan should be given the tools to basically control the contents of their library and/or hand limitlessly for the remainder of the game. The previous version I had would be limited in the early part of the game by the size of the ashheap; it is also susceptible to interference by things such as Trochomancy. The hand customisation is limited in the beginning, but does not allow for the "fishing for the card I need but haven't seen" like you get from Spirit Summoning Chamber. It still costs resources and it is a once per 'round the table' effect combined with the fact that you still have to discard afterwards.
EDIT: Also, this card doesn't 'incease the size of the library' but allows you to effectively rearrange the contents of the library. It give you the ability to slightly customise the hand/library without increasing its effective size. 3 Ashur Tablets effectively increases a library by 12 cards (12 to library, one to hand and discard one has no net effect). This card forces you to exchange a card in your hand for a card in your ashheap which leaves you with the same sized library, you are in effect discarding resources you may need later. WMO + the card designed in the other thread results in +1 library size every turn and immediately drawing the card into your hand. //EDIT
The thread you have brought up allowed for cards to be moved from the bottom of the library to the top, which when used with Waste Management Operations allowed the hand to be customised immediately without any loss of cards to the ashheap and with few ways for it to be prevented. I have a BIG problem with that.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418