Card Idea: Good Sabbat Vote (Parity Shift Equivalent)

I'd love to see sabbat get a vote on par with Parity Shift or even Reckless Agitation. This is my attempt Public Castration Requires a Priscus, Archbishop, Cardinal or Regent Polical Action Worth 1 Vote Choose a younger vampire or ally controlled by another methuselah. Successful referendum sends the vampire to torpor or burns the ally and you gain X pool where X is the capacity of the vampire or cost of the ally (up to a maximum of the number of methuselahs in the game). The picture in mind would be Sacha Vykos clawing at some vamps midsection while a bunch of other vampires look on.

Very bad design. As it is written, your 10 cap could target YOUR 5-cap, and send him to torpor, gain 5 pool, and then 5 cap takes himself out. Rinse and repeat.

just edited to make the minion controlled by another meth.

I think it's too strong. Placing another vampire in torpor with one measly political action and won referendum is already strong by itself (think of the possibility of graverob or diablerie and compare it to Banishment, where your banished vamp at least is save and keeps his blood and cards on it). Gaining pool for that in addtition is too much. The part of burning an ally seems okay. To burn an ally with one card is possible already. With this card you do it with +1 stealth like the other burn-ally-cards, need the win of a referendum, but gain its cost in pool as a reward. Should be okay. Think of how many cards you need to send a vampire to torpor through combat (rush-card, damage-dealing or aggr. strike-cards, something against S:CE or maneuver, the risk of being in combat and get damaged yourself by it and so on). With your pol. action you just need an unblocked action and a won referendum (which actually could be one after a Cryptic Rider or another autowin card). You could be delayed, but still. One last point: A card targeting vampires AND allies is already strong by that fact. The flexibility is a huge advantage. Baron of Frankfurt

thanks for the feedback guys! definitely as written is above curve at the moment. that being said, I have a question. given this card existed; would Castration decks be appreciably stronger that their prince/justicar parity shift equivalents? does torporing a vamp and gaining pool get you closer to winning the game than parity shift?

> simcof wrote: > that being said, I have a question. given this card existed; would Castration decks be appreciably stronger that their prince/justicar parity shift equivalents? > > does torporing a vamp and gaining pool get you closer to winning the game than parity shift? > I'd say yes. Granted with Parity Shift you can act more strategically and give pool to others. But you need to have fewer pool than the target and leave his minons intact. Although you lower his pool he still can hit back. By torporizing/burning the target's minions you cripple him a lot. That is/can be a huge advantage. Gaining pool for that in addition is far more what a Parity Shift does. Although just my 2 cents of course. Baron of Frankfurt

I just want to add that I think it's hilarious you chose Vykos as the vamp for the picture... according to the source material, Vykos' appearance at the Convention of Thorns included him performing a self-castration.., and then some... and throwing his, er, manhood across the table at Hardestadt. Brings another meaning to the 'flung junk' deck concept, doesn't it? cheers Disco Stu

> Disco_Stu wrote: > I just want to add that I think it's hilarious you chose Vykos as the vamp for the picture... according to the source material, Vykos' appearance at the Convention of Thorns included him performing a self-castration.., and then some... and throwing his, er, manhood across the table at Hardestadt. > > Brings another meaning to the 'flung junk' deck concept, doesn't it? > > cheers > Disco Stu > lol definitely intended

> simcof wrote: > thanks for the feedback guys! definitely as written is above curve at the moment. > > that being said, I have a question. given this card existed; would Castration decks be appreciably stronger that their prince/justicar parity shift equivalents? > > does torporing a vamp and gaining pool get you closer to winning the game than parity shift? > I don't think Castration decks would be stronger than parity shift decks but I don't care so much about that. You need to factor also is the card fun to play against. I can imagine many situations getting hit by this vote from crosstable to my tooled up vampire with almost nothing I could do. So this should be limited to pred/prey only (pref only prey). Also this + graverobbing is very easy to do and can be too gamebreaking. Maybe change that vampire goes to torpor during that player untap phase. Different version: Public Castration Requires a Priscus, Archbishop, Cardinal or Regent Polical Action Worth 1 Vote Choose a younger vampire or ally controlled by your prey or predator. Successful referendum sends the vampire to torpor or burns the ally during his or her next untap phase and you gain X pool if minion is controlled by your predator or your prey burns X pool if minion is controlled by your prey where X is the capacity of the vampire or cost of the ally (up to a maximum of the number of methuselahs in the game). Only one Public Castration can be played each turn.

I'd rather have the vote inflict damage instead of sending it right away to torpor. I think it's strong enough without gaining pool. Name: Public Castration Cardtype: Political Action Requires a Priscus, Archbishop, Cardinal or Regent Choose a younger vampire or ally controlled by your prey or predator. Successful referendum means the chosen minion takes X damage, where X is the difference between the acting vampire's capacity and the chosen minion capacity or cost. Damage could be capped to 5 maybe. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Damage could be capped to 5 maybe. > No need to: it takes an 11-cap targeting a full 5-cap to inflict 6 useful damage. In all other other cases, either the vote inflicts 5 or less or the extra damage is lost once the target is empty in torpor.

I think Ankha's idea makes the card way below Parity Shift, and if finding an equal to Parity Shift is the goal, that's not going to do it. The concept is good, though, and thematically the card is hilarious. Some major tweaking of the ruling should be made, though. For those that are afraid of grave robbing and this, combat can already manage this kind of a thing. Sometimes getting votes through is the easier way, sometimes not. And to really benefit from this kind of a card you'd need to voter cap it. A better approach in my opinion would be making the card more usable by all Sabbat guys, not just those with presence. I don't have any answers to how to manage this, but I'm just bringing it up. The thing here is, that is stealing pool from players stronger than torporising a vampire, and gaining pool in the process. That might result in either a burnt/stolen vampire, or a wee bit delayed next turn and loss of two blood. So, I dunno. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

@Kraus: I have to quote myself on wether it's as hard to put a vamp. to torpor with a pol. action as through combat. > Joscha wrote: > Think of how many cards you need to send a vampire to torpor through combat (rush-card, damage-dealing or aggr. strike-cards, something against S:CE or maneuver, the risk of being in combat and get damaged yourself by it and so on). With your pol. action you just need an unblocked action and a won referendum (which actually could be one after a Cryptic Rider or another autowin card). You could be delayed, but still. > The idea of doing damage to another vampire with the pol. action is a good one I think. Maybe you can add "If the chosen minion is not ready after the referendum the controller of this acting minion gets two pool" or sth. like that. The damage dealing part would punish all the Villein-players who go too low on blood on a minion. Baron of Frankfurt

> Joscha wrote: > @Kraus: I have to quote myself on wether it's as hard to put a vamp. to torpor with a pol. action as through combat. > > > Joscha wrote: > > Think of how many cards you need to send a vampire to torpor through combat (rush-card, damage-dealing or aggr. strike-cards, something against S:CE or maneuver, the risk of being in combat and get damaged yourself by it and so on). With your pol. action you just need an unblocked action and a won referendum (which actually could be one after a Cryptic Rider or another autowin card). You could be delayed, but still. > > Then again just going into torpor is a different thing than going into torpor after getting a serious beating, and being tasted. I know about the card issue, but take into consideration: A vampire goes in torpor with a pol. actin with 4 blood, vs. a vampire goes in torpor without any blood, and the rusher gains 4 blood due to taste. Just thinking. Sometimes getting into combat is worthwhile. Then again here's the option for voter cap, and such. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's a bad card idea or anything. Just that there're also benefits for being in combat. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Remove blood from the vampire equal to the number of players in the game and move that blood to the acting vampire. Any sabbat vampire voting in favor of it gains a blood from the blood bank. If you want to make it give pool like parity shift then how about: Deal damage to the vampire equal to the number of players in the game and gain pool equal to the amount of blood burned by that vampire to heal. Any methuselah controlling a sabbat vampire that votes in favor gains a pool. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> Ankha wrote: > I'd rather have the vote inflict damage instead of sending it right away to torpor. > I think it's strong enough without gaining pool. > > Name: Public Castration > Cardtype: Political Action > Requires a Priscus, Archbishop, Cardinal or Regent > Choose a younger vampire or ally controlled by your prey or predator. Successful referendum means the chosen minion takes X damage, where X is the difference between the acting vampire's capacity and the chosen minion capacity or cost. > > Damage could be capped to 5 maybe. > I like the idea of damage, but I think this version makes the vote wallpaper vs other big cap decks. the idea is to make this on par with parity shift, which does two powerful things things (pool loss and pool gain). how about something like this? Name: Public Castration Cardtype: Political Action Requires a Priscus, Archbishop, Cardinal or Regent Choose a younger vampire or ally controlled by your prey or predator. Successful referendum means the chosen minion takes X damage and you gain X pool, where X is the number of methuselahs in the game.

Would it make a difference if the target has to be ready? I'm seeing 3 of this called successfully on a single weenie in torpor, netting a total of 15 pool... Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

"Name: Public Castration Cardtype: Political Action Requires a Priscus, Archbishop, Cardinal or Regent Choose a younger vampire or ally controlled by your prey or predator. Successful referendum means the chosen minion takes X damage and you gain X pool, where X is the number of methuselahs in the game." ******* Much better idea! Self-limiting power (akin to PS) as Meths r knocked out Involves some pool gain, but again not too much I hv doubts it compares equally to PS, but at least it offers something FWIW - Is it necessarily a good idea to introduce damaging effects thru pol. actions? I appreciate the independents already hv it (& RA also...hmmm), but is this angle bordering on a point raised by another player in the game-tester thread a few days ago: that we really dont want to see too much cross-over of typical discipline abilities. ie: its not good to give POT bounce or intercept; force crypts to involve multiple disc's to cover that angle if desired. Similarly, if pol. can already do pool gain/loss, burn/steal allies & locations & weapons, banish, untap, increase/decrease hand size, & add master actions... does it really need to mimic combat also? I kinda like the card idea in many ways, but i'm wary of this crossing-over abilities...

Stepping away from the damage-dealing ability (sorry for the tangent!) would it be better to look at a card that is, say limited to 4+ caps, targets any meth w/o a sabbat vamp, loses 2 pool, u gain 2 pool? So you get a similar effect to PS, maybe not as powerful, but still a vaguely similar effect eg: Name: Nibbling at the Cheese Cardtype: Political Action Requires a Sabbat vampire over 4 capacity Choose a Methuselah that does not control at least 1 Sabbat vampire. That Methuselah loses 2 pool. You gain 2 pool. Option b is the last sentence reads: "...Choose a second Methuselah, they gain 2 pool."

> technobabble66 wrote: > eg: > Name: Nibbling at the Cheese > Cardtype: Political Action > Requires a Sabbat vampire over 4 capacity > Choose a Methuselah that does not control at least 1 Sabbat vampire. That Methuselah loses 2 pool. You gain 2 pool. > > Option b is the last sentence reads: "...Choose a second Methuselah, they gain 2 pool." > I actually like this, but why make it so much worse than PS? I´m more for either banning PS or giving Sabbat a card of similar power. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Because it's a Sabbat vote card. I don't think Sabbat should even have a vote card that's as good as Parity Shift. Yes, I understand that will always cause pure Sabbat vote decks worse than pure Camarilla vote decks but that's themetically a good thing. When designing a new vote card specifically for Sabbat, you have to consider that it will ALSO be usable in Sabbat vote-archtypes that are ALREADY very strong. !Toreador breed comes to mind obviously, but the G 2/3 Lasombra PRE crypt with Polonia and Moncada is also very very powerful. Let's not forget that Cardinals are fairly easy to make (a LOT easier than Justicars) and that Cardinal titles are not unique. I feel adding something as good as Parity Shift to those decks would make them way, way too good; especially the !Tor one. I mean, I would replace every Art Scam in my Foundation Exhibit deck with a Nibbling at the Cheese and have a much, much stronger deck. And it already *is* a very strong deck thanks to vampires like Jost, Greta and Sheila.

> Izaak wrote: > Because it's a Sabbat vote card. I don't think Sabbat should even have a vote card that's as good as Parity Shift. Yes, I understand that will always cause pure Sabbat vote decks worse than pure Camarilla vote decks but that's themetically a good thing. > > When designing a new vote card specifically for Sabbat, you have to consider that it will ALSO be usable in Sabbat vote-archtypes that are ALREADY very strong. !Toreador breed comes to mind obviously, but the G 2/3 Lasombra PRE crypt with Polonia and Moncada is also very very powerful. Let's not forget that Cardinals are fairly easy to make (a LOT easier than Justicars) and that Cardinal titles are not unique. > > I feel adding something as good as Parity Shift to those decks would make them way, way too good; especially the !Tor one. I mean, I would replace every Art Scam in my Foundation Exhibit deck with a Nibbling at the Cheese and have a much, much stronger deck. And it already *is* a very strong deck thanks to vampires like Jost, Greta and Sheila. > I don't think pure Sabbat vote decks should be worse than Camarilla vote decks, that's bad design. Sabbat vote decks should be different from Camarilla vote decks. Let Camarilla have big pool gain from votes, it fits thematically better for them also. I would want players to think what kind of sabbat votes should be like. I don't want to see existing camarilla votes changed little and converted to sabbat. I think sabbat vote cards should be about aggression and rewarding your aggression (not necessary combat but that fits nicely thematically). Also doing dmg or limiting choices of other players fits sabbat too. I really like flavor of Hand Intervention, Tribunal Judgment, Auto-da-fé and Deploy the Hand. Those are good examples what sabbat votes should be like. Just shame that all those cards are weak. I also think cards like Alastor/Archon/Judgment: Camarilla Segregation would had fit better for sabbat.

Also I don't think this discussion is trying to find Parity Shift for sabbat but Parity Shift Equivalent. Everytime I see sabbat vote as my predator I'm like "Glad it's not camarilla politics and I'm not being hit by Parity Shift or Alastor". Sabbat really needs some cool strong vote card which is feared by your prey. Even independents have Reckless Agitation, sabbat has nothing.