What would you like to see in a new expansion?

What would you like to see in a new expansion? Since the development of V:TES is now more or less entirely player driven, and for many other reasons, we suggest making use of the creative efforts and energy displayed by players in this forum in the development of any new cards and expansions. A good and structured dialogue will provide valuable input to VEKN/any design team working on new expansions. This will make their work easier and at the same time ensure that the views and preferences of players in relation to new cards/expansions are communicated to VEKN. Feel free to add your input to one or more of the points below, and/or introduce new points that you think should be added to the list. 1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? It would seem appropriate for new editions to follow and/or develop the World of Darkness background. 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? Do we need new game mechanics? This is meant in the broadest sense, and would cover introduction of cards that work in a new way (such as Imbued), new types of cards (such as Events) new attributes (such as Trifle), etc. 3. NEW CARDS? Are there any areas that need additions/improvement? This would include supplementing the various groups with new vampires, and e.g. expanding existing mechanisms. Are any revisions of already printed cards required? This could either be in the form of re-writes (like the revised Anarch Revolt), or new cards adressing old problems (like Two Wrongs) 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF So far, new expansions have followed a similar format with boosters packs and starter packs. New expansions need not necessarily follow the same format. Many formats are used by existing collectible card games from which inspiration could be drawn. Issues to discuss under this point includes: size and frequency of expansions; production, funding, distribution and price of cards; status of new cards; and the rights to publish new cards. V:EKN Website Coordinator

1. Sabbat. Focusing on templars and inquisitors is a good starting point. 2. Yes, Trifle action cards (vampire can play one trifle action and untap after successful action, but if it's not a first action of this vampire, he taps as normal). 3. G5 for sabbat. Lazarene Inquisitor should be inquisitor and be able to play auto-da-fe and other inquisitor related cards. Parity Shift can use some nerf (reduce it's damaging potential by one by single correction of text), Master heavy decks can use some nerf (or to be more correct, ashur-liquidation combination as well as anthelios+lots of masters). Some bounce+reducion from obfuscate would be great, too. 4. small expansions 30-60 cards, twice per year or even once, founded in similar way as v:tm 20th book. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Sabbat vote cards to give them a better footing against the Camarilla. It's too common to see Sabbat votes decks shot down because "Parity Shift would be better." I'd like to see more bloodlines work to flesh out a few weak clans. Samedi and Harbingers both need more help, especially the Harbingers. I want to see card effects that play off of Lilith's blessing, but not a total nerf. I like the card, but it's just too powerful as it now stands. A cog needs to be thrown in the multi-master machine. I'd like to see some help for melee weapons in general. Baron of Berkeley

Id agree that Sabbat, should be the next expansion. With focus on Gr5 vampires to offset the KOT influx maybe just 20+ new cards and 80-100 vampires. If we can reprint some older cards by all means please reprint some of the KOT library cards in the mix. For the next set after that id like to see a Cam/Sabbat expansion Archons and Templars then who knows.

1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? The theme should reinforce the ties to the World of Darkness story. It should also highlight the strengths and weaknesses of particular clans and/or sects. For example: a set of 4 different preconstructed decks balanced against each other, representing 4 clans competing to control a city or region. Each deck would introduce new cards that reinforce a particular play style. But most importantly, it can't have anything to do with infernalists. 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? New game mechanics aren't necessary, as long as new expansions can shake up the metagame or bring new life to old vampires. I think if the design team sets the proper goals they can decide how to meet those goals, with new mechanics being one of the many options. 3. NEW CARDS? See 2. New cards are a means to an end. For example, how to address the relative weakness of titled Sabbat vampires? New cards that match the power of Parity Shift and No Secrets? 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF Now that the game is no longer being printed for profit, it's about time we rid ourselves of the ripoff scheme of booster packs. Anything would be superior: full starter sets, selling boxes of commons, etc. I think small, focused expansions are ideal: they should be quicker to design, playtest, and cheaper to publish (if indeed they are to be printed).

I like small expansions of 20-45 cards 3 for year. Each expansion with a different theme and which serve to enhance this theme cards, for example: -Secrets of the Sword - Sabbat group 6 - enhancing policy actions to bring it to the Camarilla and make political Sabbat cards have their own personality. -Blood Moon- , werewolf allies and library/crypt cards with -The savor of Death- and library/crypt cards with Camarilla Prince of Jaen

Make solid group 5-6 vamps and I am happy NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

1. Theme I think the theme for any new expansion should be making the Sabbat more brutal/violent. More violence in their politics, more options for indirect pool damage (e.g. a Sabbat Bums' Rush that would deal pool damage if the opposing minion goes to torpor) and tipping the balance away from either "Play with Princes" or "Play with disciplines". The Sabbat, as I have seen portrayed in VTES, in VtR materials and the like actively choose violent resolutions when dealing with the Camarilla (and sometimes the Independants). 2. New Game Mechanics Only those mechanics which would directly enhance the theme, and those that are elegant and simple. I personally would not like the introduction of a new broad-based group of cards which did not neccessarily work similarly to the existing vampires. (e.g. I don't want Imbued Mk2). I would like the Black Hand to have a more playable on their own nature. It seems there are few options for Black Hand that don't involve either a lot of Auspex or Assamites. It would be good to have options for the Black Hand that function better than Anarchs. Otherwise, in the vast majority of decks, Black Hand is a wasted card feature (which is a shame considering there is at least one 11-cap Black Hand member). 3. New Cards I would like to see any new cards created to meet the objectives of the set. One other category of new cards I would like to see are Necromancy Allies. The Giovanni have had a monopoly on Zombies, Wraiths and non-Vampire undead buddies. Anything other than a Shambling Horde that is recruited with Necromancy seems that it is not worth the action. 4. Format Two formats should be an option. They can get a high-quality pre-printed card bundle from VEKN or they can get a PDF (possibly with a fee) of the cards they can take to their nearest printer and print them out. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I'm not going to be original here and I'll most likely repeat what's been said already, but anyway... 1. Definitely around the Sabbat. I see it pretty much the way Juggernaut does - more brutal, violent, "the bad guys" of WoD. Maybe some new ideas around the way the Sabbat works - creating shock troops, resolving matters in a "less peaceful way" etc. A bit more focus on Black Hand would be nice as well. 2. Nothing new or gamebreaking really, I don't think we need that. I'd expand the Bahari thing, make the Research mechanic playable (or at least make it easier to use and add in a deck that can still be competitive), a bit of work on the Trophy mechanics. 3. New G5/6 vampires are a must. I'd also be happy to see new interesting ally cards for the Sabbat clans (!Brujah would be on top of the list). Perhaps some long - awaited Sabbat 11caps (we have only two as for now). I totally support the idea of more necromancy allies. I'm in favor of addressing the existing cards as well - namely Ashur Tablets + Liquidation combo, Pentex and Parity Shift. Not banning them, but either an errata (worse option) or printing new cards / vampires with abilities that reduce the power level of those cards / combos. 4. PDF is fine, any other format would create a lot more hassle. I hope that helps. Cheers

1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? I like the idea of a distinctive Sabbat expansion. Emphasis on the violent nature of the sect (Notorious Brutality is thematically a very good example), a few decent political actions (maybe requiring a clan like Lasombra?), and possibly adding some cards supporting Sabbat packs (similar to those of Blood Brother Circles?). Please don't do .. Kindred of the East -- too dissimilar from the rest. Another expansion as disconnected to the rest of the game as the Imbued were .. not good. Inconnu -- the Inconnu were deliberately not fleshed out in the WoD by the designers. I think VtES should follow suit. I am not against any Inconnu card, just not a whole expansion. Blood Dimmed Tides ... 'nuff said. 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? If any, use sparingly for the moment. I like the idea of expanding existing mechanics. Best example is the Power Edge variations Juggernaut81 had proposed here and on his blog. Take some underused mechanic in VtES and make it something more interesting/better. 3. NEW CARDS? As others mentioned here, priority one is fleshing out the group 5/6 vacancies for non-Bloodlines clans (with the Sabbat clans being on top of the list). With respect to library cards, yes, of course, but please don't further dilute the distinctiveness of disciplines. 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF Regarding distribution/packaging I am pretty much open to anything: print-your-own-cards, living card game (packs with 4 copies of each) or boosters, I don't care, as long as it's VtES. I am not in favour of "reprints" in a print-your-own-cards distribution model. I paid good money for the cards, which would instantly reduced to nil when these "reprints" became legal in tournaments. In general, I would like to see the VtES Storylines (tournaments) to be continued.

1. Theme Sabbat is good, there was nothing new for it for a long time. Allies based set would be interesting as well (but NOT imbued). Others options include Inconnu (not necessarily whole set), Old Tzimisce 2. New game mechanics not needed. not wanted. The game is already complicated which can become problem when recruiting new players. 3. new cards vampires for g5/6. As extrala wrote please don't further dilute the distinctiveness of disciplines, so please no deflection for obfuscate, potence, etc., no intercept for presence, etc. 4. format any, preferabbly not .pdf but real cards

As someone mostly opposed to the release of fan-based material and making it official, I feel I should respond to this. Let me rephrase my earlier postings in saying that I wouldn't mind the game getting an update, but the the form or shape here is extremely important. I'll get into that at point #4. 1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? I don't think the expansion needs a theme. The expansion should be about what the game NEEDS at the moment. It should be an opportunity to try and fix the things that are plagueing the more competitive tournaments. Specifically: weenie bleed is always a safe pick, walls make tournament rounds last forever and 75% of the cardpool has been unplayable competitively for years. 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? Mechanics, I'm not sure if we need new ones. There are a lot of mechanics and phases in the game that are hardly used. Cards like Wider View and Events in general expanded on things you can do in the Influence and Discard phases and I'd rather see more options there then adding an entirely new mechanic. I'd like groups 1 and 6 being playable together too. The only new mechanic-like thing I can think of would be something to encourage people to actually oust their preys. At last year's EC I talked with various "high-profile" players about the timeout issue and the general opinion was that people just need to get ousted at some point. Slowplay combined with auspex and poolgain is a recipe for 2 boring hours. I can't think of anything specific right now, but anything that rewards ousting (clearly the VP+6 pool is insufficient) more is good. 3. NEW CARDS? Well... group 5/6 Sabbat is obviously hurting, so filling that up seems obvious. I think otherwise the crypts are mostly fine at the moment. Some disciplines probably need a card here and there to open up more diverse strategies, but nothing too big. The game is mostly fine as it is. As above, I think a new set should be focused on making the metagame more interesting. Again specifically: * I'd like to see more useful defense against bleed that isn't bounce and isn't useless when you're not being bled. I wrote somewhere that if Touch of Pain said "+1 bleed" at inferior, it would be a contender in Potence decks. That's the kind of cards I'm thinking of. If bleed becomes less effective and dominate/auspex isn't the only way to go anymore, people will experiment more. There should be more ways to deal with bleed than deflections or beating them up (resulting in both you and your prey getting 0 VP) * I'd like a way to punish decks that don't move forward and just make their predator miserable. What V:TES needs is less timeouts and more games ending. Short version: make annoying and/or strong archtypes weaker by offering counters to them that are not silver bullets. Do not make weak archtypes stronger; there is enough powercreep already. 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF Ye... this is pretty huge for me. See, PDF is just not going to cut it. I would want actual physical high-quality cards, printed on proper paper in the proper proportions and colors. I'd like to see uniformity. The reason for this is, if player A prints the "cards" on their cheap desktop LQ black and white printer, cuts them loosely, glues them on some cardboard and sticks them in a sleeve, it's not a VTES card. Then it's a proxy. We might as well start sticking white papers in sleeves and writing "Villein" on them and allow proxy´s on tournaments. Secondly, PDF opens the way for infinite cards and while this might sound good, it's actually bad. Infinite (and free) cards hit the very core of the game genre. MTG is virtually unlimited cardpool due to the 4CL and Magic tournaments are the most boring metagame you can imagine. That is, until a new set is released dictating the new best 3-4 decks. Of course, the challenge in magic is not actually playing the deck, but also in designing it and finetuning it against itself and its counters. V:TES, otoh, is about playing the table and deck similarity would hurt that a lot. How they are distrubuted, I don´t mind. I´d imagine W&N selling boxes with 1 of each new card or some fixed starter-decks with appropriate content at cost and Jeff doing the same for the US. So ye, physical cards. I'm not too fussed about fixed decks (akin to BSC) or boosters.

I'd love to see a living card game version or print on demand, so we dont have problems with the quality.

What would you like to see in a new expansion? 1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? Even LSJ gave hints in Palma that the next expansion would be Sabbat. It is obvious (looking at the groupings and later releases) and it is much needed. For those of you who like Sabbat... 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? No. Please don't. We need, more then ever, to get new players into the game in every way we can. New mechanics doesn't help because that's more to explain and would only generate interest in the players who already play the game (for the new ones, everything is new, so...) New cards will generate enough interest with us older timers. 3. NEW CARDS? Yes. Continue G5 and G6 with Sabbat Vampires. Maybe do it like in Camarilla Edition and also give us one of each of the Camarilla clans. Make the new vampires interesting and strong, so new players get a feel that they have a chance to be competitive right away. Please release Montano. 11 cap Camarilla Lasombra. B) No nerfs on cards please. No release of cards naming other cards. People complain about Sensory Deprivation and Parity Shift for years and VtES still exists with those cards without a distinct separation between those who used and those who don't. Same goes every other card / combo you can thing of. Some people might not like them, but numbers don't support that. 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF I think the best option (from discussions amongst NC's and the good folks in this forum) is making it LCG style. From time to time (this number depends on the people involved and their availability) VEKN releases N cards in high quality PDF or web format for players to print for free. No money or profit can be made from any of this and I think it is the best way to keep people interested. Cheers! Tiago

This sticky is based on discussions we had in this thread: vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/8713-new-expansion-and-card-ideas I have summarised below the input from the people involved in that discussion - a lot of loose ends 1. Theme for expansion? -- follow existing themes 2. New game mechanics? -- not for now 3. New cards -- no revisions. More G5 Sabbat vampires, more G6 vampires, expand research area mechanism, improve trophy mechanism, e.g. expand Bahari mechanism 4. Format and practical stuff -- size of expansion(20-30?), frequency of publication, production, funding (prepaid by players?), distribution (via princes/direct sale?), status of new cards (promo? unofficial/official?), price, rights to publish new cards.

Themes Real Laibon expansion set. The four Laibon clans get 15 or whatever vampires each. Laibon Lasombra, Laibon Tzimisce, and to a lesser extent Laibon Ass/FoS/Gio/Rav all being blown out to be workable crypts. It seems a lot more interesting to me to increase the balance in commonality of disciplines. Admittedly, Kiasyd mean that Obt isn't as rare, but why shouldn't the non-bloodline clans with unique disciplines have extra vampires to lend more variety? Camarilla cards that don't have anything to do with Princes/Justicars/ICMs. This could fall in a mechanics section, but primogen have always needed help and it's only worse since anarchdom became worth doing. It's kind of strange that Camarilla clans don't get more allies since the point of the Cam is to live with humans. How many Brujah allies are there in the game? How many of them were printed in Jyhad? How many Malkavian allies are there in the game? It's just stunning. New Mechanics It's really hard for me to think of all of the examples off the top of my head, but I'd much rather see development of existing mechanics. Government. Inconnu. Research area. Inquisition. There's certainly room for playing around with merging existing mechanics like a political action card that could be discarded for a combat effect or whatever, but if I had the time, I'd go through and hunt for mechanics that show up in (mostly) one card that should be more fully developed mechanics. New Cards Group 1 - Indies, Sabbat, Laibon, bloodlines. Group 2 - Laibon. Imbued - I'd like to see one of two things happen. My preferred choice is that Imbued are banned from tournament play. I don't see this happening, though. If it's not going to happen, more Imbued cards. This is another case of having an underdeveloped mechanic in the game. As nice as it would be for it to have never existed, if it must exist, then it should be varied. It's thematically poor to have Imbued and vampires in the same deck, but it's far more interesting to improve the synergies between them. Abominations - clan card. Format First, are we talking about actual printed cards? It's a big difference whether we are playing fake cards or real ones. And, then, there's the issue of whether they are going to be sold or not. I prefer 150-200 card sets over smaller or larger. I consider Twilight Rebellion the only quality 60 card set with the others being overly narrow. Meanwhile, the massive sets, even putting aside how tiresome it is to get a bunch of reprints of cards I have hundreds of, make cards too rare. Legacies of Blood, for instance, should have been, from a player friendly point of view, two 150-200 card sets. As to how often they should come out, how rarity is done, etc., I see all of that depending upon whether we are talking about real cards or not. If the game were to effectively go back into production, then I could see two of these midsize sets a year, though I'd imagine many would prefer once a year. Traveller Card Game

1. THEME FOR EXPANSION - Sabbat 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS - No. Expand existing mechanics not working properly (Bahari, Research Area, Black Hand) 3. NEW CARDS - Group 5 and 6 vampires. Reprint some hard to gain cards (Ashur's Tablet, Villein) - or reprint them as part od new starters 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF - middle expansion, cca 120 cards. May be LCG and Starters. Prefere real cards.

just two more cents from me. Villein needs to be reprinted or banned/errated (better solution, it's badly designed: it's naming another card (minion tap), which is bad and villein + giant's blood is just stupid). Otherwise it will become harder and harder for new players to be competetive. Villein is base card in any deck with big cap vampires (like Minion Tap was when it was playable) and now it's really hard to get. Such card should be widely available like blood dolls, wake's, etc.

1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? I don't think Theme is to important. On the other hand, I don't want to see vamps based on the Twilight movies. Keep it good old VtM. 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? Not now. First flesh out gr. 5/6 vamps. Maybe add to old mechanics. As alot of other players have pointed out: Research, Trophy/redlist, bahari and Aye/Orun should get more cards. At a later date, it would be great to see Disco-Stu's Kuei-jin. 3. NEW CARDS? As above. And please fix the Ashur/Liq and the Lillith/villain problems. 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF I would like printed cards. I you could get a company to print on demand. That would be the best. Don't need Booster packs or Starters. I'm not so keen on printable pdfs.

Hi Damnans, 1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? As I think I might have mentioned in another, earlier, post on this topic; the Sabbat currently lag behind the Camarilla in G5, so they’d be an obvious place to start. An emphasis on Inquisitors and Templars would make for a great way to play up the qualities of the sect without deviating too far from existing cards. There are a bunch of heretofore-unused characters from Montreal by Night that could be a good place to start; MbN has an emphasis on the Inquisition, plus has plenty of stuff about Infernalism that could play up the growing threat of the infernalism/Baali/Bahari in the metagame and VTES-specific metaplot. 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? I think a ‘silver bullet’ to some often-horrible master combos would be a keyword that prevents certain masters from being played with an additional master phase. Let’s call it, I don’t know, ‘Primary’. If Giant’s Blood had the keyword, you could no longer Villein + Giant’s Blood (in that order) in the same master phase. You could even add it to other heavily-abused cards (Pentex Subversion, Liquidation) if the playgroup thought it appropriate. Hell, add it to Villein and all of a sudden people have a reason to play Minion Tap again. Otherwise, no brand-new game mechanics. 3. NEW CARDS? G5 Sabbat is, as mentioned, the obvious hole in the existing crypt spread. Cards giving new effects to the Inquisitor and Templar keywords would be great. New tricks for the Research Area would be excellent, as that’s a ‘dead zone’ of deck design right now. 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF If it’s an e-expansion (PDF, etc.), then rarity goes out the window. This is less of a concern for VTES than for other card games due to the fantastically balanced nature of the game, but still something to consider. One way of getting around this is formalise a ‘substitute’ rule; if you have 10x Undead Strength (say) in your deck, you are allowed to print up 10x Fist of Punchiness (new common potence card) and put them in sleeves with Undead Strength behind them. If you don’t have Undead Strength, no Fist of Punchiness allowed - and tournament Judges are there to check you’re following the substitute rule. Doesn’t matter for commons much, clearly, but this limits the power curve if you want to print Cenkil Og, a new superpowered card that is designed as a rare. If you’re going for printed cards (my preference, and probably that of everyone here), then let’s go for fixed-card distribution. It’d be almost like a 10th Anniversary tin, just without the tin. If we’re talking about <50 cards here, then that’s one ‘pack’. If we’re saying 200+ cards with half-new, half-reprinted, split it into 3-4 themed packs. This format controls rarity distribution nicely, and allows for bundling of cards into quasi-starters. Starters themselves aren’t really necessary; they’re great for the hobby-store shelf to introduce brand-new players but the point of this set is probably going to be proving to jaded VTES players that the game is indeed alive and well; Earth Melded, not in torpor. As far as funding, I could imagine that a pre-order payment from players via key, trusted, distributors might be the good way of organising it. cheers Disco Stu Prince of Melbourne, Australia

> Mephistopheles wrote: > Make solid group 5-6 vamps and I am happy > 2nded Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

I especially agree with "extrala" and "Izaak"! In my opinion, the most important thing is to keep the game living out of its own (already existing) mechanics, and to add only carefully something really "new". National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

I second extrala. Main point for me: > > extrala wrote: > With respect to library cards, yes, of course, but please don't further dilute the distinctiveness of disciplines. > Baron of Frankfurt

> Damnans wrote: > What would you like to see in a new expansion? > Attention to the source material. If a card doesn't explicitly come with a reference to a Vampire: The Masquerade source book (page number), then it shouldn't be included in a set. Pulling card ideas out of your ass just results in shitty cards. Set the bar high, do not allow cards that don't fit the source to be made.

> Adonai wrote: > If a card doesn't explicitly come with a reference to a Vampire: The Masquerade source book (page number), then it shouldn't be included in a set. > Pulling card ideas out of your ass just results in shitty cards. > The last sentence seems quite extreme. Could you detail? It seems to me that more than 50% of the existing cards do not relate to a source book (Public Trust, Target Vitals, Aid from Bats, etc.). And those who do are not necessarily great cards (Reality, Conquer the Beast etc.) Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Would it be possible to add supportive rules text for keywords? For example, adding the Titled keyword to all titled vampires does not increase the card text by much, but is easier from a new player point of view (cards that say requires a titled vampire will then clearly refer to all titled vampires). I know that the titles themselves imply that these vampires are "titled vampires", but would it hurt to make that explicit? Also, following the same line of thought, could we add "(X votes)" after each title with a fixed vote for ease of reference? Again, this would make things easier for players. Of course, this could, if possible, be extended to keywords such as Blood Cursed, Cold Iron Vulnerability, Sterlie, Scarce and Infernal. Space on the card may prohibit the rules text for these other keywords, but I think at the very least, the titles should have these rules texts. Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

> fojtik wrote: > 1. THEME FOR EXPANSION - Sabbat > > 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS - No. Expand existing mechanics not working properly (Bahari, Research Area, Black Hand) > > 3. NEW CARDS - Group 5 and 6 vampires. Reprint some hard to gain cards (Ashur's Tablet, Villein) - or reprint them as part of new starters > > 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF - middle expansion, cca 120 cards. May be LCG and Starters. Prefere real cards. > I second this, Bahari and Research area in particular. Aaron Archbishop Adelaide

> Sudden wrote: > > > fojtik wrote: > > 1. THEME FOR EXPANSION - Sabbat > > > > 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS - No. Expand existing mechanics not working properly (Bahari, Research Area, Black Hand) > > > > 3. NEW CARDS - Group 5 and 6 vampires. Reprint some hard to gain cards (Ashur's Tablet, Villein) - or reprint them as part of new starters > > > > 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF - middle expansion, cca 120 cards. May be LCG and Starters. Prefere real cards. > > > I second this, Bahari and Research area in particular. > Ok, what is the background of the Bahari? Aren't they some kind of infernalist-offshots? pckvtes.wordpress.com

wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php?title=Path_of_Lilith

A vast majority of cards are pulled from WoD sourcebooks. This, of course, becomes increasingly more difficult as time goes on and the pool of unused source material shrinks. But a great deal of effort is made to cull ideas from WoD source material. -Robert _________________ Robert Goudie

1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? Sure if you can devise a nice unifying theme. Not a biggie in my book though. 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? Concentrate on plugging the current holes first. 3. NEW CARDS? -G6 is a no brainer. -Being a Bahari (via Lilith) is so cheesy that it demands some counter cards that while usable in any situation give an additional benefit vs. Bahari. Kinda in the vein of, say, Fiendish Tongue. -An occasional Imbued card or two wouldn't hurt. Just to give some variety to the extremely limited number that is currently available. 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF -PDFs rule! They'll be easily available for everyone and practically until sun freezes too. Printing would have probs like who would front the money for them and what to do when the probably very modest print run sells out (thus infalating prices -see recent examples of that with new sold out expansions). -I'd prefer VERY small expansions. Like 9-18 cards (an A4 sheet or two when talking about PDFs) This way big mistakes with game balance would probably, if not totally, be skipped. Also future cards still on the pipeline could be easily adjusted based on the response the earlier miniscule expansion has gotten thus awoiding game balance roller coaster ride. Finnish Politics!

I would welcome an idea or some cards that support fighting with SWORDS ... There are so many of them, but there ist – in my opinion – no really effective and reliable (!) way to use them ... It has not to be something equal to "Torn Signpost" plus "Immortal Grapple", though it would be nice & stylish! National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

> Hakuron wrote: > I would welcome an idea or some cards that support fighting with SWORDS ... There are so many of them, but there ist – in my opinion – no really effective and reliable (!) way to use them ... It has not to be something equal to "Torn Signpost" plus "Immortal Grapple", though it would be nice & stylish! > Are you suggesting that there be a Highlander mini-set? Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

Just a thought I'd recently had... Maybe if we are going to try for b buying printed cards we should try set it up like GMT Games. Players make a committment to pre-purchase a set number of cards for a fixed price and that cash is used to make the first print run (cover setup costs etc). GMT I think have a bottom limit of 500 copies of a game before they do a print-run on out-of-print games. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

1. THEME FOR EXPANSION - I don't care Templars, Inquisitors, Archons, Inconnu, Bahari, I love them all so put them all together. 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS - I dont care, I will play with anything that is thrown at me. 3. NEW CARDS - Group 5 and 6 vampires for sure. No reprints. Maybe some Imbued cards. New Allies. Dont forget to put Montano as 11cap Lasombra into the game, he ist still missing. 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF - I dont care as long as no hard to get reprints are involved, you can use pdf. But please allow only good prints for tournaments. I would love to see actually printed cards, but I think this ship sailed already. - Prince of Karlsruhe, Germany

1) Theme: bloodlines (small expansion that finishes 6th group for them) 2) New mechanics: nothing particular, some improvement to existing ones. 3) Better combat on pure valeren, some non unique allies for Harbringers (they should be experts with zombies not Giovanni) and Kiasyds (since they made pact with Shadow court - I would rather give S.C. Satyr to them and not to Gangrels), good allies (unique or not) for (!)Salubri (since they have quite few cards that helps allies but no good ones to make deck with them, 2 group 6 vampires for each bloodline (except for scarce ones). 4) I would love to see such set printed as normal cards in living game format. If it is not an opption printable cards in pdf/jpg/png/etc. would be good too. I think that expansions should have size around 40-60 cards each and be focused on 4-6 clans (or bloodlines counting scarce ones as half). I'd also love to see new crypts of allies based upon mix of mechanic between imbued and vampires (Imbued - their powers and convictions + low levels of vampire disciplines). I would love to see few latest storylines poured into toilet since people who made it didn't read books that described vampires (Maris had different mental illness, some dead vampires lived like nothing happened, sholar bloodline was changed into fascist like band).

1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? Imbued!! only kidding Not super important, but for what it's worth Sabbat - they're lagging a bit behind. Rip-off those lovely Fin's: "Sabbat Politics!!" as the sabbat seems to be a punchy sect of suckers 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? Negatory - improve/flesh-out existing ones: Research area - currently the nearest black hole to Earth. I would 2nd Disco-Stu's idea to limit the Villein-Giant's Blood combo. The "Primary" master phase concept could be perfect for this. Generally i'd welcome the curtailing of Master-abusing decks. 3. NEW CARDS? I guess G5 & G6 Sabbat vamps. I'd be tempted to insert a few G6 Camarillas & Independent/Bloodlines also. Included in this should b a few Black Hands & Seraphs (BH is useless w/o enough Seraphs, namely you want at least 2 available to make a *good* deck) Bahari - some penalizing cards are needed, but maybe include 1-2 nice cards for the B's Red List/Trophy - some new Trophies would be nice, new ways to Red List minions, but also maybe some cards that benefit being the all-scary minion that just got Red Listed (ie: 1-2 cards w dual functions, 1 of which benefits a vamp that is Red Listed; to counter any tendency for lots of Trophy decks that may develop). It would be nice to see an alteration as to how Trophies are deployed - make them Trifles, play a card that allows them to be played as Trifles, etc. Currently you need to jam your master slots w Trophies, & this is *one* of the major disadvantages of the trophy concept. More allies (NOT IMBUED!) - dont care who for. Werewolves would be preferred tho. Generally a focus on aggression - (Sabbat) combat namely, but a few political cards for the Sabbat address the issue of almost any Sabbat vote deck is better if it was Camarilla. Some boost to Seraph/Black hand tech would be nice Would love to see the expansion of Sabbat titles - Inquisitor, Templar, etc I kno zip abt WoD, so on reading the Wiki, there's all this stuff about Ductus (warleader of a pack?), etc. Why is there no mention of Ductus in our CCG?? Could there b a type of temporary Templar-like card called Ductus? Definitely avoid diluting the disciplines - ie: not bounce for Potence, nor intercept for Presence etc 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF What are the options?? Proper printed cards would be preferred, but is this plausible? If not, PDF's i guess

Just a short note. Lots of people here point out that research area is practically not used and could be developed in future. IMO, while it's underdeveloped it should remain as such. There is already more than enough different areas in this game. It would be better if research area never appeared, but if it exist let's keep it as unused as it is.

3. NEW CARDS? Sabbat & G5,6 is obvious, following continuity, and then indies, etc.; as always. But i like to see bloodlines G6 completed. 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? First expand existing mechanics and traits (Aye/Orun, Bahari, Research Area, Trophy, Corruption). 1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? Theme is very important to attract future players from WoD fans. Specifically i want to see 'Serpents of Light'(Sabbat Setites), there are only two in VTES and is a well-known group in the WoD (with several important characters: 'Sangris, exArchbishop of Montreal', 'Abbie Norberg, Regent Melinda Galbraith's Templar', etc.). Kindred of the East stuff, because in the books have an important politic relation with vamps (specially in latter events). * * * * * * *

> Lönkka wrote: > I'd prefer VERY small expansions. > Like 9-18 cards (an A4 sheet or two when talking about PDFs) > > This way big mistakes with game balance would probably, if not totally, be skipped. Also future cards still on the pipeline could be easily adjusted based on the response the earlier miniscule expansion has gotten thus awoiding game balance roller coaster ride. > I totally agree with this! It is VERY important. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? It is kind of new start, so I think basic style expansion is appropriate. As old WOD theme, some Technocracy themed cards or some old clan Tzimisce, maybe. 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? "new attributes (such as Trifle)" is OK. "new types of cards (such as Events)" is too much. 3. NEW CARDS? How about just declare group 6 vampires can be counted as group 1 (or 2, 3). Just an idea... 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF Good old boosters and starters is the best. IMO, starters are essential, to introduce vtes to new players. If the new expansion is only for old-already-players, vtes players will decrease and vtes eventually get true death. Even if it's PDF style, some kind-of-starter which includes at least Blood Doll or alike, basic stealth and basic intercept, is required.

Just quick notes of reference which have been growing in my mind: Bahari was something that wasn't done too well. Maybe they thought that Anarch and Black Hand tags weren't strong enough or were too difficult to achieve - I really don't know. But the addition of Lilith's Blessing was just weird. I'm not saying the card should be banned, but some sorts of restrictions wouldn't hurt. So yeah: 1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? Sabbat, obviously. Reinforcing the World of Darkness background would be pretty nice. In a nutshell, I'm very happy with the suggestions others have contributed. 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? Agreed with many others: no new mechanics, please. Some additions to some, though, of which Research Area and Bahari angle spring into mind. About the latter, I've got an opinion of my own, however. Whereas Bahari should gain more profilic cards to play with, there also should be other means to go Bahari than Lilith's Blessing. There has already been some nice card suggestions on the forums. Also, as I honestly think that Bahari was a poor addition to the game as it is, I'd suggest that there is a drawback to the keyword, similar to Infernal. What this might be, I don't know. This could be added to the Rulebook, under a new Keyword, like Anarch and Infernal and Red List were added during their times. Just quick something that might give an idea: Bahari get -1 Intercept. Titled non-independent vampires cannot be Bahari. If they would become Bahari, they lose their titles. Infernal minions gain +1 Intercept when a Bahari vampire is acting. Firstly this is to reflect the unique nature of Bahari. Secondly it would discourage playing so abundant numbers of Lilith's Blessing + Villein combo. Thirdly Bahari wouldn't be such strong numbers of vampires anymore. I thought they were supposed to be a very minor number of all vampires, regarding the WoD background. A long couple of paragraphs, but there's something to consider. 3. NEW CARDS? A couple of G5 Sabbat vampires, maybe an Advancement to fill in the Bahari or Research vacuum (Miller, Teacher of Bahari ADV to make him more anti-Bahari, and Lectora ADV for some research goodies?). Add a clan-spesific fun card or two, and I'm happy. 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF I'm probably not the first person to debate this. I'll be happy whatever comes our way. Feel free to disagree. I'm fully aware that this is a problem for some, not for others. It's not 'necessary' by any means. However, I feel that it is an intersting take on something that is arguably an issue for many. At least something that should be considered. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

I agree that Sabbat need some more pushing, but i don't like the idea that they need powerful politics. politics = camarilla stuff. I accept that one or two of sabbat clans should have some politics pushing (Lasombra, !Ventrue, maybe tzimisce or !toreador, and, why not, FoS) but i stand firmly that each sect/clan should have its weakness and flavor. For me it's fine that just camarilla princes and justicars can call Parity Shift. I play regularly Lasombra Political decks and I think they are pretty strong even without PS. Clearly it's a bit more tricky. But I don' t like the idea that we need to create more cards to solve the weakness of a clan/sect. Why is nobody calling for a camarilla Abbot? Also I think that the shoulb be some anarch multidiscipline card to refresh the sect. Also I don't like the idea of 11-capacity Sabbat vampires. Surely there is need for more sabbat vampires, but I think they should be strong low- to mid-cap vampires with some powerful but tricky abilities. I support group 6 vampires! my two cents.

> Kraus wrote: > Miller, Teacher of Bahari ADV to make him more anti-Bahari, > A 'teacher' of Bahari should be anti-Bahari? Absolutely not.

> Adonai wrote: > > > Kraus wrote: > > Miller, Teacher of Bahari ADV to make him more anti-Bahari, > > > A 'teacher' of Bahari should be anti-Bahari? > > Absolutely not. > Let's say strong against other Bahari as well as himself being Bahari. Nothing to nullify Bahari as such - he is pro-bahari himself after all. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

I agree with extrala that new cards shouldnt dilute the existing disciplines and also they shouldnt be only better versions of existing cards or cards that can be used to easily. So they should be very special, i.e. only usable by special vampires, clans or other groups. (That is why i have no problems with new creatures, an werewolf action will not change the way vampires are played. - But thats another thing.) So my idea would be: THEME: Vampire Cities NEW MECHANIC: At the moment there is one card that has a speciality for one city ("if you control the prince of Paris"). I would like cards, that are limited to the rulers of a city. The cards could be made after ideas of the city books of OWOD. You would get a whole new group of decks, build around one city. The effect could be, that vampires (princes, achbishops and barons) not often played, would be more interesting. EXAMPLE (shows the idea, is not very good) MARDI GRASS Action Only payable by the ruler (Archbishop, Prince or Baron) of New Orleans Every vampire you control gets one blood.

> Decebalus wrote: > THEME: > Vampire Cities > > NEW MECHANIC: > At the moment there is one card that has a speciality for one city ("if you control the prince of Paris"). I would like cards, that are limited to the rulers of a city. The cards could be made after ideas of the city books of OWOD. You would get a whole new group of decks, build around one city. The effect could be, that vampires (princes, achbishops and barons) not often played, would be more interesting. > > EXAMPLE (shows the idea, is not very good) > > MARDI GRASS > Action > Only payable by the ruler (Archbishop, Prince or Baron) of New Orleans > Every vampire you control gets one blood. > I like this idea. Or masters like Library of Congress or Buckingham Palace that can be put in to play or taken control over only if you control the ruler of Washington and London. But it would be nice if the cards aren´t totally useless when your ruler is burned. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

like the idea. It opens new possibilities while not creating new rules. And a concept have WoD background, it's not purely mechanical. The only problem i see is that such card would have very narrow use, only in some very specific decks. But maybe it's not a problem

What would you like to see in a new expansion? 1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? Sabbat based set sounds great. I love the idea that Decebalus introduced about the cities. "Sabbat and the City" 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? No new mechanics. 3. NEW CARDS? Group 5 Sabbat crypt cards. I would be happy with one solid vampire for each sabbat clan - especially for !Brujah Just omit bloodlines Ahrimane,Blood Brother, Harbingers, Kiasyd and !Salubri. In addition, I'd be happy to see card for each of the disciplines - limited to clan disciplines of the sabbat vampires (barring spiritus and sanguinus). 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF I like physical cards, but going PDF is just fine. ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

In my opinion, anything but electronic distribution is simply not feasible. Anything involving printing cards will involve money, which is when holders of various intellectual property get involved (and as far as that goes, don't forget that people at WW put in a real effort to find someone who could pick up the game, with no luck). And note that it doesn't require being a "for-profit" effort to run afoul of copyright or other licensing issues. Meanwhile, there are numerous examples of electronically distributed, fan-authored material being ignored by the companies that hold the IP on VtES... In my experience, cards printed on paper, when put in a card sleeve with a real card from the game, work just fine and are pretty much indistinguishable from a "real" card. ***** As far as content, I think it's important to get Villein (and possibly Vessel), or something publicly equivalent, out there and readily available and legal for competitive play. The choice of "money" cards that were reprinted in the HttB starters is a good starting point for identifying old strong cards that need to be kept easily available. VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache

I havent read any of this, so it might be mentioned before or anything,... but i would like to see a lot of vampires from group 1 advanced. With nifty merged specials. They can only be played with one other group anyway. Not necesarily the ones that see play already. Especially the ones that you never see. merged: if you control merged Uriah, you burn one pool in untap merged sammy gets a maneuver tiberius adv: predators library: merged: may take an action to burn 2 cards from prey/pred's library adv thomas thorne: anarch merged: baron zack north adv 7cap: cel. merged anarch Dancin Dana advv: +1 St merged: CEL Astrid Thomas adv: change anothers vamp clan to tremere as action. merged prince merged tatiana romanov: +1stealth merged dr jest: may put the card in your hand instead merged justine; +1 intercept merged Quinton MqDonal: aggro hands Sylvester Sims: Can take the leave torpor action when tapped. Merged: can take an action to visit torpor. Crusher: can exchange a card in hand for a grapple in your ash once per turn. merged: once per combat Marty Lechtansy: merged can do a sanguine instruction trick Roxanne: adv: can rush vamp above cap 8 from prey/pred. merged: can rush any vamp from prey/pred. merged Angus: +2 bleed and inner circle appolonius adv: +1 maneuver; merged +1 add strike Cassandra: adv +1card; merged can bounce when tapped Lucian adv: can rush a minion. merged can do a MagicotSmith lucretia adv +1bleed merged: prince camille devereux, the raven adv: take an action to change name to anything else. merged: can impersonate an elder at the cost of one blood. Lot's of fun stuff to be thought of (has to be funny and make the vamps playable) and ofcourse more enkil cogs and stuff W

Yes, advanced versions of the unplayable JY-vamps would be nice. But I mean Appolonius, Quinton McDonnell etc, and not Lucien, Camille etc. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Making good advanced versions of existing vampires would actually not do anything to make their poor Jyhad counterparts see more play. People would just play the advanced version and - if the merge text would be worth it - pay 1 pool to merge them.

OK, good Merged-effects on Adv-versions then. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Yeah, either a good merged effect, or an advanced effect that works great next to the base effect. That's what i tried to do with the above things. (they were all from the top of my head though) W

multiple groupings for new vampires (eg grouping 1+6) should be included if appropriate. this is easy to add to the cards and requires no new rules as it's self-explicatory. consequently, if you add an extra grouping to an exisiting vampire's ADV version, you could also see this as an official erratum to the original BASE vampire's grouping thereby addressing a few problems and fixes at once..

1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? I'd like to see some more Jyhad type stuff. Take a break from the werewolves and the mages and the black hand and the end of the world. I like to see vampires fighting over mortals and their world. Get back to the basics. 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? It would be boring and pointless to print cards that don't add new mechanics to the game. This doesn't mean that every set should add some new type of card text identifier. But to keep the game interesting we always need new mechanics. Remember when three way cards and dual discipline cards were introduced? Bloodline cards with "outferior" and even (not a discipline) cards were introduced? The game evolves, and it's pointless to make new cards if we aren't going to keep going with it. 3. NEW CARDS? I think it would be good to un-wallpaper older cards. People have talked about finishing group 5 and 6 vampires and research something or other. I don't know much about those, but that's a dead horse at this point Take a look at any older card that aren't used. Are there cards that could work in conjunction with them to make them more useful? I've already started a thread about investment cards. I'm sure there are others. 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF I don't know what will be best legally, but I think the method of releasing cards should indicate how often cards should be released. If it will be a print-n-play downloadable pdf distribution, then I think small batches of cards can be released more frequently. Rather than closed playtesting, offer public playtesting. Cards can be adjusted based on feedback, with a minimum amount of time and/or feedback submissions before they are cleared for legal play. This method would allow for adjustments of previous cards, and more drastic card text migrations. It might cost more for players to reprint their own copies of revised cards, but allows for more flexible design. If the game will only be available from a print-on-demand service of professional quality, then I recommend full sets with longer closed playtesting period. From a player standpoint, not much would be different in the time between sets and the availability of cards. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > 1. THEME FOR EXPANSION?If it will be a print-n-play downloadable pdf distribution, then I think small batches of cards can be released more frequently. > Indeed! I'd go bonkers if the schedule was 9-18 cards every other month. (= 54-108 cards annually) Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > > > direwolf wrote: > > 1. THEME FOR EXPANSION?If it will be a print-n-play downloadable pdf distribution, then I think small batches of cards can be released more frequently. > > > Indeed! > I'd go bonkers if the schedule was 9-18 cards every other month. > (= 54-108 cards annually) > I think this is too frequent. Make sure to playtest everything ALOT. Start with 9-18 cards every 4 month or so, a see how it works out. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Still discussin about the theme of the expansion???? IT SHOULD BE SABBAT, of course. I am waiting for new tzimisce vampires since 1996 or something like that. It is really necesary to make a new group of GOOD tzimisce. No one plays types 4-5 of these guys and it is not normal at all. So PLEASE try to make more aprofitable tzimisce in this expansion set. Only that.

> Andrialfo wrote: > Still discussin about the theme of the expansion???? IT SHOULD BE SABBAT, of course. > > I am waiting for new tzimisce vampires since 1996 or something like that. It is really necesary to make a new group of GOOD tzimisce. No one plays types 4-5 of these guys and it is not normal at all. So PLEASE try to make more aprofitable tzimisce in this expansion set. Only that. > I second this. 4-5 tzimisces is mysteriously weak. The only close to-decent deck I´ve played with group 4 tzimisces was a pre-voter with Velya. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

I saw a deck with Ankou in the deck clinic and suddenly remebered that there was efforts made to get him to the winning minion in one of later storylines. Perhaps an advanced vrsion of him? Overkill is highly underrated. You know, like in computor games and such.

New Card: I dislike permanents which are theoretically impossible to get rid of (unless controlling player is ousted). I also prefer minion-phase driven play. Hence I'd like to see an action card, (or more than one, targetting different types of targets) with a high associated blood-cost, burning a permanent effect. For example: Hulk Smash: 4 blood, burn a Master Card in play as a action.

I'd like to see something that replaces Minion Tap. Not all of us can afford 90-150 dollars just for Villein in order to make a good large vampire deck. Also, I'd like to see the "famous" vampires that aren't in game to show up. The Dragon (Dracula), Baba Yaga, Montano, Lazarus, Troile... And Kuei-Jin. Either as "vampires", though that would require a set similar to the imbued one, or as allies. I'm a huge Kuei-Jin fan. Also, Children of Osiris bloodline. (I know, it's not theoretically a bloodline, but neither is Ahrimanes.) And Bardo as a discipline. And speaking of Bloodlines, Nictuku would be a nice one to add. And please print the cards and let us buy it normally, not print them ourselves. Living Card Game would be the best distribution method I think.

> stromgard wrote: > Also, I'd like to see the "famous" vampires that aren't in game to show up. The Dragon (Dracula), Baba Yaga, Montano, Lazarus, Troile... > WoD nerd on The dragon have nothing to do with Dracula, except the clan. Lazurus and Troile are likely dead in modern night WoD nerf off Also, don't forget that thoses vampires does not enter very well in VtES. They all are independant 11 or more cap. In fact, they are supposed to be the player, because they are so much more powerful than even Haarderstat. > stromgard wrote: > And speaking of Bloodlines, Nictuku would be a nice one to add. > Same thing as the Dragon. They would more or less require "damage from hand strike aggravated. +4 strength" to even start to have the beginning of destructive power they are supposed to have. Edit : a nictuku attack event could be cool if well designed (I.E. it does something else than burning every Nosferatu) > stromgard wrote: > And Kuei-Jin. Either as "vampires", though that would require a set similar to the imbued one, or as allies. I'm a huge Kuei-Jin fan. > > Also, Children of Osiris bloodline. (I know, it's not theoretically a bloodline, but neither is Ahrimanes.) And Bardo as a discipline. > Too much effort in my opinion. Both are very strange, need specials mechanism, and a lot of testing for balance, for little value. Especially for Son of Osiris, that are an history footnote. Also, Bardo does not exist. I strongly deny any claims of Bardo existing. In fact, in WoD roleplayings circle you would see a lot of people claiming that both bardo and Kuei jin soes not exists.

Anything that un-wallpaperize investments (allies, actions or other masters that allow other counter extraction mechanisms) South American princes/archbishops/barons Notes to non South americans: - Mexico is not SA - Brazil is not the only country in SA (the biggest and most populated yes, but not the only one).

I play this game for more than 10 years... if this finaly goes ahead only a littel demand. I'm a sabbat player... with the last changes in the game i belive sabbat just go behind independents & camarilla... even laibon are stronger than sabbat. Just rebalance and give my kids some new tricks, please !!. I have some ideas about but one think i will see in the future it's gangrel antitribu playable as a clan and a littel bit more political sabbat decks.

p.d: maybe more sabbat ravnos, a complete crypt of serpents of the light. Joseph pander as a vampire a new mid cap with better disciplines blood brothers crypt a new political crypt for lasombras, like the old school, because if you don't make a reedition of this or a new versión is one of the most strongest decks in the game we are going to see dissapear ;(

i see before somebody talks about LCG V:TES. I vote for that ^^

> malkavianbarcelona wrote: > i see before somebody talks about LCG V:TES. I vote for that ^^ > First we'd need to find a publisher though. Otherwise it is just a pipe dream whatever the format. VEKN isn't going to publish anything. Finnish Politics!

A card to kill reitines.....i made 1 on "team up". 1 stealth or some triks to redlists . a card to chage sect and/or begin a battle sabbat- camarilha. anark minior rare diciplines

> jtnono wrote: > A card to kill reitines.....i made 1 on "team up". 1 stealth or some triks to redlists . a card to chage sect and/or begin a battle sabbat- camarilha. anark minior rare diciplines > Like these? Target Retainer [KoT:R] Cardtype: Combat Aim. Play when choosing a strike. You may target a retainer on the opposing minion with this strike (instead of the opposing minion). Or you may target him or her directly as usual, but if any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted, this strike inflicts an additional damage. The opposing minion may discard two combat cards [COMBAT] to cancel this card. A minion may play only one aim each strike. Out of the Frying Pan [Anarchs:C] Cardtype: Master Master. Trifle. Choose a ready Sabbat vampire you control. That vampire becomes Camarilla. (His or her clan is not affected.) Into the Fire [Anarchs:C] Cardtype: Master Master. Trifle. Choose a ready non-Sabbat vampire you control. That vampire becomes Sabbat. (His or her clan is not affected.) When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

The idea of city based cards is brilliant! But we have to make sure that we don't make blood brothers obsolete. My Ideas for the next expansion : I agree with most of precedent posts so I will be more specific. lasombras : Nowadays we just have 2 lasombras gr5, both black hand, but much less effective than the combo banjoko+lavenant. think about it : 6 pool more, for just +1 stealth on the seraph, and a de-tap and the end of the turn... I prefer to have 1 or 2 little vamps more for this price. I think we need 4 lasombra gr6 plus 1 black hand with a strong power ( maybe a "theo bell" against minions with a hand contract? or with a detap if you controll a seraph?) I see a 5 or 6 cap vamp like dr julius stuphen with POT obt dom and this power. We have gr2 lasombras who vote, and are fat guys. Gr 4 is mid-cap based, effective in bleed. We can make a balanced crypt strong in fight, with allies or in magic ( descent into drakness is really hard to use, and it is a shame). I mean, tzimisce have meshenka, ! tremere have uta kovacs, kyassid have omme, and assamite have countless vamps who have an integrated path of " clan discipline". I think a grp 6 lasombra star ( 7-8cap), with obte cost 1 less blood and fortitude can be very interesting to create a new way to play this noble clan. Tzimisce and !gangrels need a boost to oust their preys. I think about a clan based master or action with high blood cost ( 2 ou 3) : your prey burns x pool where x is the number of vamps in torpor he or she controls can be one of the solutions to make a viable combat deck based on tzimisce ( with intercept), and !gangrel ( with rushs). Another card only playable once each game could be : choose a vampire in torpor, the controller looses half of his capacity round up( max 7 pool for a inner circle but we all know that inner circles are villeined to 3 or 4 blood). Violent, but there are clans who need that card. Ok my ideas or cards may be crappy but I have a suggestion to make for the next expansion. We will certainly have a pdf format with a few cards, and the problem on the infinite number of prints can be simply solved. Why all the cards could not be or unique ( such as vampires, masters, locations, equipments, allies, retainers), or playable just once a game ( all other type of cards)? The maximum of these type of cards is 3 or 4 copies per deck, so what is the matter if a huge number of copies exists? And the idea of city based cards is totally possible with that option.

> aria wrote: > I mean, tzimisce have meshenka, ! tremere have uta kovacs, kyassid have omme, and assamite have countless vamps who have an integrated path of " clan discipline". I think a grp 6 lasombra star ( 7-8cap), with obte cost 1 less blood and fortitude can be very interesting to create a new way to play this noble clan. > Unfortunately, the strength of Nocturn decks makes this less likely to happen (though certainly not impossible). You already have the Path of Night. Between the Path of Night and the suggested guy with more Obtenebration reduction, that's a lot of free Nocturns every turn (and free Entombment to boot). > Tzimisce and !gangrels need a boost to oust their preys. I think about a clan based master > or action with high blood cost ( 2 ou 3) : your prey burns x pool where x is the number of vamps in torpor he or she controls can be one of the solutions to make a viable combat deck based on tzimisce ( with intercept), and !gangrel ( with rushs). > !Gangrel, yes. But Tzimisce? They're one of the most competitive clans out there. They can bleed reasonably well with Fiendish Tongue + Changeling, with some minor stealth. If you want they can also go the Pulse route. Or Living Manse, plus + bleed retainers. You can play intercept wall with Smiling Jack. Or combat with Fame and Dragonbound. In combat, they have easy access to aggravated damage (both close and long range), S:CE, and a bunch of other useful effects (stacking Horrid Forms, along with maybe Kraken's Kiss, or Starvation of Marena, or basic Carrion Crows + Aid from Bats). Sorry, but I don't see where the Tzimisce are really hurting. (It's true that their Group 4 is significantly "different" than Group 2 and isn't the traditional intercept/combat that many Tzimisce players seem used to, but I don't think they're necessarily bad either. Just different). pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> !Gangrel, yes. But Tzimisce? They're one of the most competitive clans out there. > > They can bleed reasonably well with Fiendish Tongue + Changeling, with some minor stealth. If you want they can also go the Pulse route. Or Living Manse, plus + bleed retainers. > Wait, what? Since when are Tzim's one of the most competitive clans out there? They have a whole 5 TWDA entries in 2011 and 6 in 2010. That puts them on par with Daughters of Cacaphony and below Ishtarri. I don't think a lot of people would argue those are "one of the most competitive clans". (**) Ironically they come with two of the better discipline in the game, ANI and AUS. To top it off VIC isn't too shabby in itself either and I hear War Ghouls are pretty good too. Their main -and probably only- problem is that their crypt is just, well... horrible. Some would argue Group 2 is decent, but if it's even decent, it's not more than that. Group 2 is mostly filled with crypt mismatches, vampires that are too expensive for what they do and then there's Corine and Caliban. Group 3 has a playable crypt card in Kazmir, but mostly continues the theme of the complete lack of in-clan superiors on anything smaller than 8. Then of course there is G4, which is so mindblowingly awful that trying to even create a deck with it will leave you pulling out your hair in frustration. Another factor is probably that animalism doesn't really add anything to VIC/AUS nor does Auspex add a lot to VIC/ANI (other than bounce, or for the slang impaired "cards that change the target of a bleed"). Tzims basically come with 2 disciplines, neither of which is actually good at ousting. > It's true that their Group 4 is significantly "different" than Group 2 and isn't the traditional intercept/combat that many Tzimisce players seem used to, but I don't think they're necessarily bad either. Just different). > I hope you're using "different" here as a replacement for "godawful". (**) Yes, I'm aware that using the TWDA as a measure for competitiveness is not 100% accurate.

Thank you Izaak, to have searched this statistic about TWDA. Seriouslly, tzimisce have 2 "competitive" decks : trap horrid and war ghoul ( speed and piper). They lack of pool, blood, defense, vote and make hardly more than 1GW5 in a tournament. An you name that "one of the most competitive clan"? They have 2 new cards I did not played with tzim and seem interesting : mind of the wild to stealth rushs and cancel combat ends, in combination with dabbled because it is easy to use 3 disciplines with a walish ( read the winds+breath^^) or combat ish( mind otw+breath) tzim. But nothing to oust your prey! And seriously +2 bleed in 2 cards... Think about it : dominate has 2 ways to do +3 bleed in 1 card!! Even anarchs can do better with no discipline : +3 bleed in 1 card! About the "entombment is too strong" or " there will be to much nocturns". If you make a 7-cap vamp without superior dominate nor myt, there is no chance this gr6 vamp will be a threat for the actual nocturn deck. Now, try to make a good combat deck with lasombras... Crypts are awful :vampires with fortitude to prevent and multi act don't have superior potence to strike hard. The crypt with animalism is nice : 4 guys with pot obt dom ani, and nice balance between superior disciplines. But they can't prevent nor multi act and they cost 9+8+6+4=27 pool! Every combat card in OBT cost 1 or more. And you have no way to defend your path. So the unique solution is marcus vittel path+drink the blood, multi rush... And it is a crappy deck. This clan needs a fighter crypt and I think a guy with an integrated path of obt, will not be used to make nocturns. He may just have POT OBT for, no dominate integrated path and capa 6. It will be fine.

> Izaak wrote: > Wait, what? > > Since when are Tzim's one of the most competitive clans out there? They have a whole 5 TWDA entries in 2011 and 6 in 2010. That puts them on par with Daughters of Cacaphony and below Ishtarri. I don't think a lot of people would argue those are "one of the most competitive clans". (**) > So you think the Tzimisce are a "worse clan" than the Baali, and the Guruhi, and the Ahrimanes? Because based on your metric, that's what the TWDA says. > (**) Yes, I'm aware that using the TWDA as a measure for competitiveness is not 100% accurate. > I'm glad that you can admit it's not 100% accurate. I'd go further and say it isn't very helpful or accurate at all (not even moderately accurate). Tzimisce intercept/combat is a consistent (and quite safe) choice when it comes to qualifiers and larger events. So yes, I think they're quite competitive. It's a different question whether or not they consistently *win* the whole tournament. > Ironically they come with two of the better discipline in the game, ANI and AUS. To top it off VIC isn't too shabby in itself either and I hear War Ghouls are pretty good too. Their main -and probably only- problem is that their crypt is just, well... horrible. Some would argue Group 2 is decent, but if it's even decent, it's not more than that. Group 2 is mostly filled with crypt mismatches, vampires that are too expensive for what they do and then there's Corine and Caliban. Group 3 has a playable crypt card in Kazmir, but mostly continues the theme of the complete lack of in-clan superiors on anything smaller than 8. > In Group 2, Lolita Houston + Devin Bisley + Caliban + Corine Marcon is an extremely strong and efficient crypt. I think a lot of clans would love a comparable lineup. Dragos and Meshenka are a bit pricier, but come with very strong and useful specials. > Then of course there is G4, which is so mindblowingly awful that trying to even create a deck with it will leave you pulling out your hair in frustration. > Sure, they're hard to play, but it offers different options. Grouping is kind of pointless if it's just the same old vampires but with a new name. There's more of a focus on out-of-clan disciplines in Group 4 (like , , a splash of and and ). Duality's really strong. Lady Zara and Rustovitch can be brutal in many combat decks. Jane and Yuri are pretty good. And there's lots you can do with Sha-Ennu. > Another factor is probably that animalism doesn't really add anything to VIC/AUS > Cat's Guidance often makes it into intercept combat decks. Or Raven Spies (cheaper than Sport Bikes and stackable). Or Read the Winds. Carrion Crows is great for burning vampires when combined with agg. > nor does Auspex add a lot to VIC/ANI (other than bounce, or for the slang impaired "cards that change the target of a bleed"). > Besides Telepathic Misdirection, Auspex also gives you access to Read the Winds and Eyes of Argus, which let you minimize the cards you need for defense. For the combat inclined, Telepathic Tracking counters S:CE and keeps your Carrion Crows and Horrid Forms active longer. > Tzims basically come with 2 disciplines, neither of which is actually good at ousting. > I definitely disagree. In fact, I think the Tzimisce are one of the easiest clans to integrate all three of their disciplines. If you want to talk about underused or wasted clan disciplines, you have: Giovanni Lasombra Toreador/!Toreador (many Toreador decks just ignore the Celerity) Gargoyle (except for Freak Drive, most of the damage prevention from Fortitude is actually done better with Visceratika) Harbingers and Nagaraja don't get too much from their (while helps the Giovanni tremendously) !Gangrel and Samedi have their own discipline issues Lots of True Brujah decks largely ignore their and and are closer akin to mono-Temporis decks (though that mainly says something about the power level of Temporis) pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? I believe something that would balance more the game. A new small expansion for the imbueds, to repair the lack on their mechanics, or a good sabbath expansion. 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? We need new mechanics to those on the crypt who are not vampires. New sysetm to balance them and take out the "target" from their heads. 3. NEW CARDS? It would be nice to see ideas as a path of humanity, and others to balance. Vitor Hugo Sabbat. Vitor gets +1 vote against any referendum of a political action.

> aria wrote: > Thank you Izaak, to have searched this statistic about TWDA. > > Seriouslly, tzimisce have 2 "competitive" decks : trap horrid and war ghoul ( speed and piper). They lack of pool, blood, defense, vote and make hardly more than 1GW5 in a tournament. An you name that "one of the most competitive clan"? > Maybe you're looking at a different TWDA than I am. But among the 12 TWDA decks from 2010-2011, there was only one Horrid Form deck (with 13 Horrid Forms plus a pair of War Ghouls) and only one dedicated War Ghoul (with 6 copies, there were three additional decks with 2 copies, including that Horrid Form deck). So 2/3 of the TWDA Tzimisce decks had neither Horrid Forms or War Ghouls. So I'd hardly say that they only have two competitive decks. And you just confirmed that competitive decks don't necessarily show up too much in 2010-2011 TWDA archives (since neither Horrid Form or War Ghoul is very prevalent, yet you admit they are competitive). > They have 2 new cards I did not played with tzim and seem interesting : mind of the wild to stealth rushs and cancel combat ends, in combination with dabbled because it is easy to use 3 disciplines with a walish ( read the winds+breath^^) or combat ish( mind otw+breath) tzim. > But nothing to oust your prey! > Deep Song? (They already had Fiendish Tongue for the intercept variety, but Deep Song has a rush option for more aggressive combat, or lets you tap out minions for a bleed deck). Eyes of Argus. Enough said. Or Sense the Savage Way if you want a little variety. You mentioned Mind of the Wild (and the Tzimisce are the only clan inherently with so that card seems to be made specially for them). Soul Scan and Underbridge Stray are underplayed, but can be quite useful in many decks. > And seriously +2 bleed in 2 cards... Think about it : dominate has 2 ways to do +3 bleed in 1 card!! Even anarchs can do better with no discipline : +3 bleed in 1 card! > I don't think Monkey Wrench is a good comparison. Anyway, by this logic, *every* discipline should have a +3 bleed in 1 card. > Now, try to make a good combat deck with lasombras... Crypts are awful > I seem to recall some decent, old-school decks (Lizette, Dr. Julius, Cameron, Banjoko, borrow a couple of mid-caps from other clans). Or just go mono-Obtenebration. You have a good selection of mid-caps with . Arms of the Abyss + Entombment, followed by Amaranth (or a little Graverobbing). Pretty efficient and strong. > The crypt with animalism is nice : 4 guys with pot obt dom ani, and nice balance between superior disciplines. But they can't prevent nor multi act and they cost 9+8+6+4=27 pool! > The three biggest guys all have , so you'd actually expect to be getting most of them at a significant discount due to Governing down. > Every combat card in OBT cost 1 or more. > ? Arms of the Abyss (GREAT) Call the Lamprey (crappy) Darkling Trickery (crappy for ) Fae Contortion (decent) Hell-for-Leather (anarch) Shadow Step (good) > And you have no way to defend your path. > Eyes of the Night? Darksight? Nocturns blocking with Unmasking and FBI Special Affairs Division? > So the unique solution is marcus vittel path+drink the blood, multi rush... > Ah, thanks for reminding me about Drink the Blood of Ahriman (normally a crappy card, but great for Nocturns since you get to save lots of blood from it). You already have Drink + Path of Night, maybe Charisma. And now a guy with reduction as well? pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> echiang wrote: > !Gangrel, yes. But Tzimisce? They're one of the most competitive clans out there. > > They can bleed reasonably well with Fiendish Tongue + Changeling, with some minor stealth. If you want they can also go the Pulse route. Or Living Manse, plus + bleed retainers. > > You can play intercept wall with Smiling Jack. Or combat with Fame and Dragonbound. In combat, they have easy access to aggravated damage (both close and long range), S:CE, and a bunch of other useful effects (stacking Horrid Forms, along with maybe Kraken's Kiss, or Starvation of Marena, or basic Carrion Crows + Aid from Bats). > > Sorry, but I don't see where the Tzimisce are really hurting. (It's true that their Group 4 is significantly "different" than Group 2 and isn't the traditional intercept/combat that many Tzimisce players seem used to, but I don't think they're necessarily bad either. Just different). > Entirely agreed. My G2 Tzimisce ANI/AUS deck is probably my most competitive, and it's also probably the most fun. (Hint: Deep Song + Mind of the Wilds + Bats + Crows is strong.) The !Gangrel, on the other hand, could use a leg up.

> Do you think the Tzimisce are a "worse clan" than the Baali, and the Guruhi, and the Ahrimanes? Because based on your metric, that's what the TWDA says. > Yes, I do in fact. Guruhi have an ousting mechanism (presence), can defend as well as Tzims if you want because of No Secrets. Plus, animalism and auspex do not differ much when it comes to practical blocking. They also get acceleration and a bunch of useful specials on their vampires thanks to them being budgeted post-CE instead of pre-CE. Baali are not a better clan per se, but they're not supposed to be played as a clan, with them being a bloodline and all. Most Baali decks in the TWDA are Cybele/Nergal kind of decks which are just as much a Baali deck as a Horatio Piper speedghoul or Lambach wall decks are Tzimisce decks. Also, Baali come bedgeted post-CE and get too many design points after Infernal got reworded so their vampires tend to be This all opposed to pre-CE budgeted Sabbat Tzims. > Maybe you're looking at a different TWDA than I am. > I dunno, but from your posts (not just this one) it really feels that you're either playing a different game or the people you play with play really bad decks. Yes, all of that *can* be done with those disciplines, IF THERE ACTUALLY WAS A PLAYABLE CRYPT. There isn't. It's expensive, cluttered with useless out of clan disciplines, cornercase specials and lacks any sort of synergy. Yes, Corine and Caliban are good vampires. Lolita has VIC which is cute for a 4-cap but VIC alone doesn't get anything done. She'd be better if she had AUS vic instead (such as Devin, who would in turn synergize better if (s)he had ani AUS VIC or ANI aus VIC). Why on earth are you going around defending bad cards and bad clans and claiming they are just "hard to use" or "different". Just because you can find niche examples or think up card combo's that fit the disciplines that doesn't mean the clan's good. The game's 17 years old. The meta has been stagnant for 2 years. I'm fairly sure the collective minds of V:TES players have figured out by now what's good and what's not.

> Izaak wrote: > Yes, I do in fact. Guruhi have an ousting mechanism (presence), can defend as well as Tzims if you want because of No Secrets. Plus, animalism and auspex do not differ much when it comes to practical blocking. They also get acceleration and a bunch of useful specials on their vampires thanks to them being budgeted post-CE instead of pre-CE. > > Baali are not a better clan per se, but they're not supposed to be played as a clan, with them being a bloodline and all. Most Baali decks in the TWDA are Cybele/Nergal kind of decks which are just as much a Baali deck as a Horatio Piper speedghoul or Lambach wall decks are Tzimisce decks. Also, Baali come bedgeted post-CE and get too many design points after Infernal got reworded so their vampires tend to be > > This all opposed to pre-CE budgeted Sabbat Tzims. > First off, I think it's a fallacy to simply compare pre-CE vs post-CE costing. Sure, some of the larger Group 2 Tzimisce might have an extra point if they were designed nowadays, but the Group 4 Tzimisce benefit from the more generous point scheme yet those are the vampires you dislike. In addition, it has been a gradual process of more generous costing (CE wasn't a magic turning point). For example, many Third Edition and Keepers of Tradition vampires tend to have more "points" than even CE, Anarchs, and Black Hand vampires. You forget that the Sabbat edition had an extreme variance. Lots of overcosted vampires and a couple of vampires with way too many points. Overall, the Tzimisce actually came out quite well, especially compared to the other Sabbat clans. Violet Tremaine is really the only wallpaper vampire. Stravinsky's a tad weak compared to modern day Archbishops, but he's at least usable (compared to some of his contemporaries like Imogen and Ethan Locke). The Tzimisce were spared from having a "4 for 5" vampire (5-caps with just four inferiors and that's it). And besides Violet Tremaine, they aren't saddled with vampires with random out-of-clans (Shane Grimald, Pieter, Blaise, Ramiro, Josef, Lolita). When it comes to Group 2 Tzimisce: Dragos Corine Marcon Devin Bisley Lolita Houston Wendy Wade Horatio would be comparable to what you'd see today. Lambach would still be stronger than most Cardinals or 10-caps you see nowadays. Anton and Meshenka would probably get another discipline point (though likely an out-of-clan, so it wouldn't make them significantly better in the Tzimisce decks they're currently in). Stravinsky would get one or two more points, once again probably in out-of-clan disciplines. Violet Tremaine has issues based on her discipline spread, so throwing her extra points probably wouldn't fix things too much (though a superior or two would be nice). I seem to recall rumors that she was supposed to be a 5-cap, which would explain a lot. > > Maybe you're looking at a different TWDA than I am. > > > I dunno, but from your posts (not just this one) it really feels that you're either playing a different game or the people you play with play really bad decks. > If you took the time to look, you'd see that response was directed towards aria, who claimed that: > > Seriouslly, tzimisce have 2 "competitive" decks : trap horrid and war ghoul ( speed and piper) > , which is inconsistent with the TWDA information that you yourself cited. > Yes, all of that *can* be done with those disciplines, IF THERE ACTUALLY WAS A PLAYABLE CRYPT. There isn't. It's expensive, cluttered with useless out of clan disciplines, cornercase specials and lacks any sort of synergy. Yes, Corine and Caliban are good vampires. Lolita has VIC which is cute for a 4-cap but VIC alone doesn't get anything done. She'd be better if she had AUS vic instead (such as Devin, who would in turn synergize better if (s)he had ani AUS VIC or ANI aus VIC). > Where are all these "useless out-of-clan disciplines" in Group 2? Ignoring Violet, you don't even have any out-of-clans at all at capacity less than 8 (which is extremely efficient). Meshenka has no out-of-clans. Stravinsky has one, inferior Potence. Plus I think you're underestimating the strength of Vicissitude. Even inferior Vicissitude can be extremely scary. I recall many a tournament table that has been wrecked by a weenie Vicissitude deck (several of those by Brian Moritz, who I hardly consider someone who plays "really bad decks."). > Why on earth are you going around defending bad cards and bad clans and claiming they are just "hard to use" or "different". > Why on earth can't you accept that it's okay for different people to have different opinions on a particular issue? Sure, you might think a given card or clan is "bad" - that's your perspective. But other people can think differently. I'm sorry if the fact that I am not agreeing with you is frustrating you. > Just because you can find niche examples or think up card combo's that fit the disciplines that doesn't mean the clan's good. The game's 17 years old. The meta has been stagnant for 2 years. I'm fairly sure the collective minds of V:TES players have figured out by now what's good and what's not. > How long did it take for players to finally discover the old Archon-not-affected-by-NRA loophole? Why are players only now discovering some of the tricks with Outside the Hourglass (particularly with Disarm)? It took players years to learn that they were apparently playing Deflection wrong. Most of the parts for Girls decks have been around for quite some time (in fact, the TWDA even has one as early as 2007), so why have Girls decks only been super popular (and problematic) recently? pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

To state Tzimisce is a weak clan is strange in my opinion. They may have some difficulties with the regular use of Villein (and the resulting bloat without doing actions) in the newer Metagame. But Tzim.-decks are very strong by either block like hell and punish with aggr. damage or bleed and bruise/stealth. Sasha Vykos Advanced is a powerhouse, they have very good midcaps. Not every clan that lacks dom or pre is bad. Just think of the tremendous versatility of Vicissitude. The big eye (AUS) is mighty anyway. Ani is a nice add-on. I'm surprised that there are people who sneer at that clan. Baron of Frankfurt

> Joscha wrote: > To state Tzimisce is a weak clan is strange in my opinion. They may have some difficulties with the regular use of Villein (and the resulting bloat without doing actions) in the newer Metagame. But Tzim.-decks are very strong by either block like hell and punish with aggr. damage or bleed and bruise/stealth. Sasha Vykos Advanced is a powerhouse, they have very good midcaps. Not every clan that lacks dom or pre is bad. Just think of the tremendous versatility of Vicissitude. The big eye (AUS) is mighty anyway. Ani is a nice add-on. I'm surprised that there are people who sneer at that clan. > I'd like to say I agree (meaning that the group-5 crypt I created has nothing to do with a hypothetic weakness of the Tzimisce). Sending an empty vampire (due to Villein) to torpor with an aggravated means that that vampire will probably be removed from the equation quite quickly. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I think Izaak has a point that relative to G2/3, G4/5 Tzimisce are weak. My belief is that since the non-Sabbat clans got lots of good vampires in G4/5/6, that people are playing them disproportionately and therefore getting more wins with them in the TWDA. I think Izaak overstates his point a bit for emphasis, but it is still valid. There are no titled G5 Sabbat vampires AT ALL. This really limits their political power greatly, especially compared to the G4/5 Camarilla IC/Justicars/Princes. It is my hope that the new set will address many of these obvious issues. Time will tell. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > There are no titled G5 Sabbat vampires AT ALL. > I suppose that's because they get the black hand trait. I may indicate that Black hand card are a bit too weak to be considered equivalent to camarilla title. Or that black hand card are underrated, I can't really tell.

> Jeff wrote: > I think Izaak has a point that relative to G2/3, G4/5 Tzimisce are weak. My belief is that since the non-Sabbat clans got lots of good vampires in G4/5/6, that people are playing them disproportionately and therefore getting more wins with them in the TWDA. I think Izaak overstates his point a bit for emphasis, but it is still valid. There are no titled G5 Sabbat vampires AT ALL. This really limits their political power greatly, especially compared to the G4/5 Camarilla IC/Justicars/Princes. It is my hope that the new set will address many of these obvious issues. Time will tell. > There are only 1 or 2 Group 5 vampires for each Sabbat clan right now, and as Ohlmann pointed out they're mostly Black Hand. So that's a very logical reason why there aren't titled Group 5. Just because a clan gets a really good crypt in a given Grouping, isn't a good justification that every future Grouping needs to reach that same bar. Otherwise you end up with a "if you give a mouse a cookie" scenario, where people just keep wanting and expecting more (and feeling entitled to it). One could argue that the Toreador haven't had a selection of vampires that can match up to their Group 1/2 but that isn't a good reason to print new versions of Anson, Anneke, and Alexandra. The Assamites have a merged Justicar, two Magaji, 3 Black Hand Seraphs and 4 other Black Hand vampires in assorted Groupings. Just because they have 2 Seraphs and 3 other Black Hand vampires in Group 4/5 isn't a good reason to expect that they should get the same in all future Group pairings. The Nosferatu have an extremely large Group 3/4 (consisting of 30 vampires), that's not a good reason to expect future groupings (of Nos or any other clan) to be at 30 again. Same for the !Tremere and their 26 vampires in Group 3/4 (that was mainly due to Group 3 being larger since they were excluded from Sabbat War and had a smaller Group 2). Occasionally you will have aberrations, but those should be acknowledged as one-time occurrences rather than irrevocably setting new precedents. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Ohlmann wrote: > I suppose that's because they get the black hand trait. I may indicate that Black hand card are a bit too weak to be considered equivalent to camarilla title. Or that black hand card are underrated, I can't really tell. > Well, that's because most of the time, Black Hand isn't really "costing" the vampire any points in terms of design. Most Black Hand vampires get their normal allotment, and then get Black Hand on top of that. Prince/Justicar titles actually cost points (as do Archbishop/Priscus/Cardinal). pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Isn't black hand costing the same as bishop and Seraph ... a lot ?

The Black Hand trait is about 0.25 points, but it's often given out for free. Look at the many 5-cap Black Hand vampires with one in-clan superior discipline. The Seraph trait costs about 0.75 points since all Seraphs are also Black Hand. Banjoko and Djuhah are easy examples to see. Bishops are also 0.5 points, while Archbishops and Prisci are 1.0 points. Many bishops have minor positive or negative specials to balance out the +/-0.5 points depending on capacity. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Ohlmann wrote: > Isn't black hand costing the same as bishop and Seraph ... a lot ? > Seraph tends to cost a point (same as Prince or Archbishop). You don't get any inherent votes, but you do have access to strong cards, especially multi-acting with Tattoo Signal and Seraph's Second, and Watchtowers. (You do have a few actions which could result in votes though). Bishop nominally costs 0.5 points, but ends up being "free" on a lot of vampires (except when it balances out a stray 1.5, like from +1 bleed or strength). It's arguable whether Black Hand is treated as free, or 0.5, or something in between. But looking at the smaller vampires, it seems more likely to be considered "free." For example, you have 2-cap Piotr with Black Hand, and it probably makes more sense to think of him as getting Black Hand as a free bonus, as him getting 1.5 points. The smallest Bishop is a 5-cap, and we know that small Primogen pay extra for their titles (4-caps Reginald Moore and Thomas De Lutrius). pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

ani/aus would be amazing clan disciplines if they came with, say, obfuscate or presence. With vicissitude it's just a bit "meh". You don't really need ani's combat when you get vic and you don't need ani's intercept/untap when you get auspex. There are simply better combinations of disciplines available that do pretty much the same thing and have better crypts to boot. In the end though, aus/ani/vic isn't really bad per se (at least not as bad as, say, Osebo's aus/pot/cel), but I really don't think vicissitude is enough of a reason to play a subpar crypt. > Just because a clan gets a really good crypt in a given Grouping, isn't a good justification that every future Grouping needs to reach that same bar. > The point of grouping was, initially, to prevent "dial-a-crypt". That makes sense AND makes way for specialized crypts. The problem here is that the Tzim G4 crypt isn't just slightly under par, it's just complete trash. I don't expect every Toreador Crypt to be as good as G1, but at least G3 is playable in certain decks and Madame Guil has fortitude, which she shares with Jaroslev and thus there are options. It also is the +1 bleed crypt that synergizes so well with Annabelle Triabell's special, who incidentally also sports fortitude. G5 is certainly less good, but at least you get 3 guys with obtenebration in there, plus there is some dominate, opening up obvious Lasombra synergy. Ventrue G5 is infinately better than G1 and G3 Ventrue for pure voting, but Group 3 has the Obfuscate crypt with Catherina, Arika, Vitel, Queen Anne and Lucinde while group 1 comes with cheaper PRE on Gideon and Violett as well as cheaper titles. There is a reason to play G1 Ventrue. That is examples of well-designed crypts. It's different, but it's all useable under the right circumstances. Now, for Tzims the idea is there: Laika, Guadado, Cyscek, Lady Zara Slatikov and even Sha-Ennu get some level of obfuscate. Unfortunately Guadado gets aus instead of ani, Laika trades VIC for inferior chimestry (that has zero synergy with anything in that grouping). Slatikov is actually a nice vampire if you intend to go fight, but then the problem arises that you can do that BETTER with group 2 and it sort of defeats the purpose of obfuscate. Cyscek has +1 stealth built-in, again defeating the purpose of obfuscate. Then they get a random 8-cap Cardinal with AUS ani vic, that gets DOM as an out-clan. Now, if he had aus ani VIC DOM he'd make some sort of sense (as little as it would be), but dominate serves zero purpose on him since he already has AUS anyway. Lack of DOM friends (and VIC for that matter) makes governing kinda suboptimal. Now if he actually had obfuscate or even VIC he could star in title-based vote-deck but as is, not so much. It's just, well... trash.

> Izaak wrote: > ani/aus would be amazing clan disciplines if they came with, say, obfuscate or presence. With vicissitude it's just a bit "meh". You don't really need ani's combat when you get vic and you don't need ani's intercept/untap when you get auspex. There are simply better combinations of disciplines available that do pretty much the same thing and have better crypts to boot. > Auspex has lots of transient intercept but little in the way of good permanent intercept (the closest thing is Anima Gathering and the equipment Bowl of Convergence, which may or may not be an "Auspex card"). Animalism solves that problem with permanent Raven Spies and Raptors, while Auspex transients keep you alive until you get set up. Plus Animalism combat for weenie Auspex is probably better than the gun variant (or you can combine guns with Carrion Crows). So I still think Animalism and Auspex have a lot to offer each other. In regards to Vicissitude, Animalism's Carrion Crows is the best addition. Pack Alpha'ing out some retainers can be useful as well (maybe an Owl Companion). You can even use Pack Alpha for permanent + strength (which works well with Vicissitude agg hands). Other Animalism cards like Canine Horde, Drawing Out the Beast, Conquer the Beast (instead of Trap), Deep Song, and Terror Frenzy can find their way into Vicissitude combat decks. Plus, Muricia's Call and/or Underbridge Stray are prime fodder for War Ghouls. > The point of grouping was, initially, to prevent "dial-a-crypt". That makes sense AND makes way for specialized crypts. The problem here is that the Tzim G4 crypt isn't just slightly under par, it's just complete trash. > > .... > > That is examples of well-designed crypts. It's different, but it's all useable under the right circumstances. > This is where we disagree. You see Group 4 Tzimisce as "complete trash." I see them as "different, but usable under the right circumstances," like the prior cases of out-of-clans you cited for Toreador and Ventrue. > Now, for Tzims the idea is there: Laika, Guadado, Cyscek, Lady Zara Slatikov and even Sha-Ennu get some level of obfuscate. Unfortunately Guadado gets aus instead of ani, Laika trades VIC for inferior chimestry (that has zero synergy with anything in that grouping). > So zero synergy with Sha-Ennu's ? Or all the Ravnos with Auspex in Group 4/5, and the pair of library cards? Using support like Gwen, Johann, and Anjalika, I think you could make a reasonable deck along with Laika and Sha-Ennu. > Slatikov is actually a nice vampire if you intend to go fight, but then the problem arises that you can do that BETTER with group 2 and it sort of defeats the purpose of obfuscate. Cyscek has +1 stealth built-in, again defeating the purpose of obfuscate. > A good proportion of vampires with inherent + stealth also have . I assume that is intentional, as part of card design. Josef von Bauren Spider-Killer Nergal (Advanced) Lucretia Cess Queen Kemintiri (Advanecd) Dimitri Borodin () Cyscek Appius Claudius Corvus (well , which is a stealth discipline) William Biltmore Viktor the Night General () Porphyrion Iniko the Black Lion (another case of ) Harold Zettler Black Annis Aristotle de Laurent Lord Fianna Raful al-Zarqa () It is far, far rarer to have innate +1 stealth for a vampire without stealth disciplines. (Jost, Muaziz, Rebekka, Gerald, Stephen, Ambrogino Advanced). So Cyscek having +1 stealth and is actually more the norm, rather than the exception. Plus, has its uses. Great in War Ghoul decks for near-unblockability (Forgotten Labyrinth gives you massive stealth). Or you can Cloak/Veil War Ghouls for more reliable attacks. Mask of a Thousand Faces (with any weenies) can help you move faster. You can vote better with Old Friends + Animal Magnetism. Of you can do stealth bleed with extra Obfuscate stealth, plus Soul Decoration to totally hose Auspex. > Then they get a random 8-cap Cardinal with AUS ani vic, that gets DOM as an out-clan. Now, if he had aus ani VIC DOM he'd make some sort of sense (as little as it would be), but dominate serves zero purpose on him since he already has AUS anyway. Lack of DOM friends (and VIC for that matter) makes governing kinda suboptimal. Now if he actually had obfuscate or even VIC he could star in title-based vote-deck but as is, not so much. > Yeah, hurts, but at least he still finds his way into decks (unlike Violet Tremaine). You get a sprinkling of with Rustovitch and Ana Rita. The makes for a viable Tzimisce Presence vote deck in Group 3/4 with Velya and the Rose. Having an 8-cap and a 9-cap Cardinal both with out-of-clan is pretty good. (Group 2 previously had Lambach, but Radu costs 2 less pool). Radu also has some potential friends from other clans, most notably the Ventrue Antitribu and Tremere Antitribu (several of whom have varying degrees of , , or ). I think your best bet is probably an deck with Radu, Malgorzata, Nickolai, Virstania, and Enid Blount). Or an big voter deck with Tremere Antitribu (Ladislas, Orlando, Malgorzata), Ventrue Antitribu (Jesse, Polly Kay), maybe even Epikasta and Troius. Radu could be better - a lot better. But don't forget he is tied for the cheapest Cardinal (with Klaus). He'd probably be a better vampire if he lost the special and got another discipline point (making him closer to Klaus). But he has his uses. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Who in their right mind would trade; Little Tailor of Prague that pretty reliably can reach +2/+3 stealth with just to recruit warghouls for group 4/5 and just to gain a little bit extra stealth? group 4/5 is trash aside from the situations where you look through available vamps and happens to find a Tzimisce that fits that situation non-clan based deck.

> chaitan wrote: > Who in their right mind would trade; > > Little Tailor of Prague that pretty reliably can reach +2/+3 stealth with just to recruit warghouls for group 4/5 and just to gain a little bit extra stealth? > Someone who wants their War Ghoul to be rushing at +1 or +2 stealth? pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Your affirmation on group 5 is a bit humorous, there is two gr5 Tzimisce, one of which that is pretty correct at the least Without that, you should better talk like Isaak, because you don't really have strong argument citing one vampire, without any other consideration. What if my deck don't recruit warghoul ? Or desesperately need to get some action throught, like the aforementionned Nightmare curse ?

> Ohlmann wrote: > Your affirmation on group 5 is a bit humorous, there is two gr5 Tzimisce, one of which that is pretty correct at the least > > Without that, you should better talk like Isaak, because you don't really have strong argument citing one vampire, without any other consideration. What if my deck don't recruit warghoul ? Or desesperately need to get some action throught, like the aforementionned Nightmare curse ? > I responsed to the argument about War Ghouls in particular. Nightmare curse isn't even an argument for Tzimisce. It's an argument for . If you play that card you don't pick Tzimisce, you pick specialized vampires that just might happen to be a Tzimisce. What I think Isaak is saying is that as a clan using clan disciplines. Group 4+5 don't hold a candle to group 2+3. If the older vampires didn't exist the newer would be considered OK'ish but the reality is that gr 2+3 do exist. Most gr 4+5 vamps atleast follow the formula [number of clan disciplines] == [capacity-1]. Which is a useful formula up to cap 7. I can count six vamps that obey that formula or better. Whereas gr 2+3 has NINE vamps where two of them has the same discipline count as capacity! Discipline count is of course not everything, we must also consider special abilities and gr 4+5 has some really good abilities like two vamps with +stealth and several vamps with OK-ish abilities like ability to burn locations and unblockable actions against weenies but nothing that offset the tremendous advantage that gr 2+3 has in disciplines. It just feels like gr 4+5 was designed with off-clan disciplines in mind. Obfuscate, Chimistry, Fortitude and possibly Protean and if you wanna build decks based with those then yeah, gr 4+5 might be your thing but as a clan with clan disciplines gr 4+5 is trash.

You do understand that, with 2 vampires in group 5, the group 4-5 is never used because it is unfinished ? Yo ucan compare 3-4 to 2-3, or simply 2 to 4. But comparing 5 is meaningless For nightmare curse, you should try to understand. Nightmare curse is an *example*. A powerful forward action accessible to a bunch of tzimisce, that can take use from Mind of the wild and have been cited already. It's not the main argument, I.E. if you really want to get your action through the group 4 will provide you with it, not the group 2. In addition, it's to show that gr2 cannot do everything. And the "tremendous" advantage in discipline does not seem too tremendous for me, I must admit. Yes, they are somewhat less in-discipline at gr4, and especially less vampire with both ani and aus. It is not a death sentence or a superior proof to uselessness.

Actually, I think this debate " are tzimisce a crappy clan or not?", is quite sterile and that is why I will try to talk about stg else. What about my ideas of cards? Of mechanics, of "all unique or 1 per game cards" expansion? A little résumé : 1/ build a combat designed crypt for lasombras, why not based on a uta kovacs-like vampire? and/or a third black hand lasombra who can do the job as well as an assamite. 2/ Open a "new" way to oust your prey for certain clan without titles, and bleed disciplines : kill vampires. I propose cards like bonus of +xbleed when x is the number of vamps in torpor. Hey! I just got an idea : what about a card that makes small vamps pop up because of the lack of vampires controlled by your predator and prey? "when the cat is away..." : put X 1-cap vampires in play where x is the number of vampires in torpor controlled by your prey. 3/ next expansion could be composed only by unique cards or cards playable once a game. This is to avoid problems about pdf format.

> aria wrote: > 1/ build a combat designed crypt for lasombras, why not based on a uta kovacs-like vampire? > and/or a third black hand lasombra who can do the job as well as an assamite. > Exactly as important as knowing why (some) people think gr2 tzimisce rules the gr4 tzimisce, since in both case we talk about filling an additional group. For the Black Hand group, I believe there is some quota ; also, Black hand is not primary a Lasombra organization while they have two very powerful groupe 5 black hand ; the only problem they have for you being that they aren't the same as gr3. Wich is a good thing. > > aria wrote: > 2/ Open a "new" way to oust your prey for certain clan without titles, and bleed disciplines : kill vampires. I propose cards like bonus of +xbleed when x is the number of vamps in torpor. > Hey! I just got an idea : what about a card that makes small vamps pop up because of the lack of vampires controlled by your predator and prey? "when the cat is away..." : put X 1-cap vampires in play where x is the number of vampires in torpor controlled by your prey. > You mean, like Dragonbound of Codex of Edenic Groundskeeper ? Pardon the tone, it may be a valid concern, but card to support this do exist ; they just does not work too well compared to good old Govern. So adding more in the same model may not work, there is surely a deeper cause. > > aria wrote: > 3/ next expansion could be composed only by unique cards or cards playable once a game. This is to avoid problems about pdf format. > Extremely bad idea. Resolving at least some of the problem in a small extension is already pretty hard ; adding another restriction for library card is a good way to faiL

> 2/ Open a "new" way to oust your prey for certain clan without titles, and bleed disciplines : kill vampires. I propose cards like bonus of +xbleed when x is the number of vamps in torpor. > Hey! I just got an idea : what about a card that makes small vamps pop up because of the lack of vampires controlled by your predator and prey? "when the cat is away..." : put X 1-cap vampires in play where x is the number of vampires in torpor controlled by your prey. > As Ohlann already stated such cards already exists. Additionally there is no reason now to help combat decks any more. While it was needed some time ago, now, combat is in best shape ever. Two last EC was won by combat decks, in EC Warsaw final, 3 out of 5 decks were combat ones. > > 3/ next expansion could be composed only by unique cards or cards playable once a game. This is to avoid problems about pdf format. > I don't get it. What kind of problems it would fix?

By combat deck you mean animalism combat with 3 cards : deep song ( amazing card, ANI did not need that one) carrion crows and aid from bats, which are existing for 15 years? Come on, we all have tried to win with dragonbound, tension, codex and all these crapy cards when playing !gangrel deck. We did not win a tournament except with enkidu or una. a part of players argue that, with a pdf format, you will introduce many copies of the cards, and if just one is over designed, we will see plenty of that. If this card is unique or usable 1 each game, it solves the problem.

> aria wrote: > a part of players argue that, with a pdf format, you will introduce many copies of the cards, and if just one is over designed, we will see plenty of that. If this card is unique or usable 1 each game, it solves the problem. > By over designed you probably mean over powered, right? Let's assume that in such a small set the cards get thoroughly playtested, and nothing will be overpowered. If a unique card is overpowered, it still is overpowered and would need to be addressed, so your proposal is kind of beside the point. pckvtes.wordpress.com

> aria wrote: > Come on, we all have tried to win with dragonbound, tension, codex and all these crapy cards when playing !gangrel deck. We did not win a tournament except with enkidu or una. > combat deck != !gangrel. They have theirs own set of problem, not having any bleed modifier to oust faster being one of them. It is still highly recommanded to have some legal manipulation / govern / changeling / living manse / other secondary ousting deck. Is that a bad thing ? Hard to tell, but putting overpowered version of dragonbound will surely not help pure combat deck, just make overpowered the one who already played bleed card. The problem with dragonbound or Edenic is *not* that they are not powerful enough. It is that putting all your prey's vampire in torpor is both overkill and too difficult to be done reliably. Also, animalism combat is not really a combat system. It's a cheap way to punish thoses who are unprepared to combat ; it fall apart as soon as you push a little with either real combat focus or S:CE. It's efficient, it's adapted to metagame, but it's not really all of combat.

> The problem with dragonbound or Edenic is *not* that they are not powerful enough. It is that putting all your prey's vampire in torpor is both overkill and too difficult to be done reliably. > > Also, animalism combat is not really a combat system. It's a cheap way to punish thoses who are unprepared to combat ; it fall apart as soon as you push a little with either real combat focus or S:CE. It's efficient, it's adapted to metagame, but it's not really all of combat. > This is pretty accurate. As an aside, Edenic only requires your prey not to have any *untapped* minions. They can be ready just fine. The only real problem with combat is that the people playing it think that empying your preys ready region should make you win.

> By combat deck you mean animalism combat with 3 cards : deep song ( amazing card, ANI did not need that one) carrion crows and aid from bats, which are existing for 15 years? > By combat deck I mean a deck which main game plan is controling a game through combat (either blocking or rushing). This contains animalism combat, as well as other combat decks. Coming back to my examples from previous ECs, in Paris it was ABO ANI combat (without aid from bats), I don't remeber other finalists. In Warsaw it was CEL guns, POT ANI (no aid from bats) and Rock Cats, with POT ANI winning the finals. > > a part of players argue that, with a pdf format, you will introduce many copies of the cards, and if just one is over designed, we will see plenty of that. If this card is unique or usable 1 each game, it solves the problem. > What does this has to do with .pdf format? Would it be any different if it will be printed? Should that mean that every card should be unique/ once per game just in case it's too good? Should we ban/ make unique/ once per game) all good cards and play only with tortured confesions and than ban tortured confesion because it will became too good?

@alek Man, you are so condescendant, you might be a good player but it does not allow you to be an ass on a forum. I have no problems with pdf format. If the cards are good to play and the game is a little changed for more fun, it is ok for me. But when you have no more notions like rarityin a CCG, you may have for a moment the internet effect : everyone can play tupdog and indeed, there are many tupdogs decks on internet. Finally, cards like PTO, or edge explosion have been banned because they were too strong, so, yes, good cards can be banned. It is just a matter of fun. I have a different analysis on presence or many allies/combat decks in tournaments. People don't play combat defense anymore, and play villein. So the solution is to take blood away before villein and/or send the vampire empty to torpor. When players will re-introduce the number of majesty they used to play ( in law firm ventrue, sethite decks etc), I think we will see disappear all of this animalism and allies.

The fact that animalism combat is used mean that everybody have understood that fewer anti combat are played. That's exactly why people use Carrion + aid from bat, it's very efficient against people who defend with only blood on their vampire.

> Man, you are so condescendant > Sorry for that, it's not intended (maybe partially to strenghten the message). Additionally, English is not my mother language, so it's hard to me to control in writings emotional package that's included in some wordings. > > But when you have no more notions like rarityin a CCG, you may have for a moment the internet effect : everyone can play tupdog and indeed, there are many tupdogs decks on internet. > I feel that controlling the power of cards via rarity is the worst thing to do. It creates situations when only people with enough money can play competetively and all tournament worthy cards are very expensive. It's such a case in Mtg, where rares are just better than other cards. One of the big advantages of vtes is that you can build very good decks with reasonable amounts of money and we should trying to stick to this.

> chaitan wrote: > What I think Isaak is saying is that as a clan using clan disciplines. Group 4+5 don't hold a candle to group 2+3. If the older vampires didn't exist the newer would be considered OK'ish but the reality is that gr 2+3 do exist. > Yes, and that also applies to Group 3 Ventrue (who have Obfuscate) and Group 3 Toreador (who have Fortitude), which Izaak has already admitted to. If you want a more traditional deck focusing on clan disciplines you're better off with Group 2 Tzimisce (or Group 1 Ventrue or Toreador). If you want to try something different, or experiment with out-of-clans, you have other Groupings (4 for Tzimisce, 3 for Ventrue/Toreador). > Most gr 4+5 vamps atleast follow the formula [number of clan disciplines] == [capacity-1]. Which is a useful formula up to cap 7. I can count six vamps that obey that formula or better. > > Whereas gr 2+3 has NINE vamps where two of them has the same discipline count as capacity! > As Ohlmann pointed out, you shouldn't really compare Group 2/3 to 4/5, since Group 5 has barely started, and you can actually combine Group 3/4 if you want. The better comparison is Group 2 vs Group 4. In any case, with Group 4, you end up with 5 vampires (excluding Dr. Morrow). Group 2 actually has 7 (excluding Piotr and Elizabeth from Group 3). Though it might also be accurate to note how many vampires there are of capacity 7 or less. Group 4 has 5 vampires out of 8 Group 2 has 7 vampires out of 9 Or looking at it another way, Group 4 has 3 vampires who *don't* meet that criteria, while Group 2 has 2 vampires who *don't* meet that criteria. Meaning the difference between Group 2 and Group 4 is just a single such vampire. (Obviously there are different ways to view and interpret that data, which I was just trying to illustrate, but here is one possible way that could downplay the differences). > Discipline count is of course not everything, we must also consider special abilities and gr 4+5 has some really good abilities like two vamps with +stealth and several vamps with OK-ish abilities like ability to burn locations and unblockable actions against weenies but nothing that offset the tremendous advantage that gr 2+3 has in disciplines. > Yeah, Group 4 has some really good specials. Some people will want to play with those, other people will want to play with more disciplines. I think it's great that players get a choice. > It just feels like gr 4+5 was designed with off-clan disciplines in mind. Obfuscate, Chimistry, Fortitude and possibly Protean and if you wanna build decks based with those then yeah, gr 4+5 might be your thing but as a clan with clan disciplines gr 4+5 is trash. > I agree. If you want a traditional Tzimisce deck focusing on the clan disciplines, play Group 2. If you want to try off-clan disciplines, Group 4 offers lots of exciting options. The point is Group 4 isn't completely useless. It has some strengths (out-of-clan disciplines, some great specials) and it has some weaknesses (less of a focus on clan disciplines). That's not a "complete waste" as some might suggest, it's just something different. Heck, if everyone else in your playgroup prefers Group 2 Tzimisce, you could also choose Group 4 simply to avoid contestation issues. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes