Hi,
If I have Guide and Mentor in play,
1) Can a vampire who already has an archetype on him search for (and fail to find) an archetype?
2) Do you gain the blood if you fail to find an archetype? (I'm pretty sure the answer to this is yes, but just want to confirm)
Thank you.
Cardtext:
Guide and Mentor
Master
Put this card in play. A vampire you control may search your library
for a master: archetype and move 1 blood from the blood bank and that
card to him or herself as a +1 stealth action that cost X pool where X
is the number of copies of the card on minions you control
(requirement and cost apply as normal)
> Mael wrote:
> Hi,
>
> If I have Guide and Mentor in play,
> 1) Can a vampire who already has an archetype on him search for (and fail to find) an archetype?
>
Yes, similarly to [LSJ 20031117] . You can't choose/find an archetype that couldn't be played on that vampire (which means you can't get an archetype if you already have one, but you can still perform the action).
> =Mael wrote:
> 2) Do you gain the blood if you fail to find an archetype? (I'm pretty sure the answer to this is yes, but just want to confirm)
>
Yes, similarly to Alastor when no weapon is found: [LSJ 20050401]
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > Mael wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > If I have Guide and Mentor in play,
> > 1) Can a vampire who already has an archetype on him search for (and fail to find) an archetype?
> >
> Yes, similarly to [LSJ 20031117] . You can't choose/find an archetype that couldn't be played on that vampire (which means you can't get an archetype if you already have one, but you can still perform the action).
>
So based on this conversation over here: vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-questions/26588-guide-and-mentor#26680
it looks like we have two conflicting rulings.
Lord Ashton doesn't let you search for a discipline card, if you can't possibly find a legal one. But apparently here you can search for an archetype, even though you can't possibly find a legal one. (In both cases, it's "search" where you can potentially fail.)
It appears that the two rulings are in conflict.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> >
> > > Mael wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > If I have Guide and Mentor in play,
> > > 1) Can a vampire who already has an archetype on him search for (and fail to find) an archetype?
> > >
> > Yes, similarly to [LSJ 20031117] . You can't choose/find an archetype that couldn't be played on that vampire (which means you can't get an archetype if you already have one, but you can still perform the action).
> >
> So based on this conversation over here: vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-questions/26588-guide-and-mentor#26680
>
> it looks like we have two conflicting rulings.
>
> Lord Ashton doesn't let you search for a discipline card, if you can't possibly find a legal one. But apparently here you can search for an archetype, even though you can't possibly find a legal one. (In both cases, it's "search" where you can potentially fail.)
>
> It appears that the two rulings are in conflict.
>
Lord Ashton:
Independent: Any other Gangrel can search his or her controller's library for an Animalism, Fortitude or Protean Master: Discipline card and move it to himself or herself as a +1 stealth action
Guide and Mentor:
Put this card in play. A vampire you control may search your library for a master: archetype and move 1 blood from the bank and that card to himself or herself as a +1 stealth action that costs X pool where X is the number of copies of that card on minions you control (requirements and cost apply as normal).
The difference I see between both effects is that:
1/ Lord Ashton allows you to take an action to fetch a discipline card, and that's all
2/ Guide and Mentor allows you to take an action during which a/ you may fetch an archetype b/ you gain 1 blood
In case 2/, even if you don't get any archetype, you can still gain 1 blood.
Question is: if vampire V already has an archetype, can he still search your library and fail his search (in order to shuffle), or not? According to Lord Ashton's ruling, no. (This could be stupid in case new archetypes are created that allow multiple archetypes on the same vampire.)
I really think the ruling about Lord Ashton should be reversed. The limitation about discipline cards and superior level is written on the discipline card itself, not on Lord Ashton's special nor in the rules. So you should be able to search your library, fail to find a playable discipline card (either because you choose to, or because you already have superior ANI FOR PRO). Are players supposed to know the cardtext of cards that haven't been played or are not in play?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
The correct answer is : who gives a f*** ? :/
let's make a ruling so lord ashton's action can be attempted even if you already have all inclan superior ! So we can tap our vampires for no reason. I can't sleep until this ruling is written in marble ! There surely may not be more important things on the RTR !
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Reyda wrote:
> So we can tap our vampires for no reason.!
>
Having a permanently available way to shuffle your library may be unimportant to you, but it is not "no reason".
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > Reyda wrote:
> > So we can tap our vampires for no reason.!
> >
> Having a permanently available way to shuffle your library may be unimportant to you, but it is not "no reason".
>
It's nice to see i'll soon be able to shuffle my library thanks to Lord Ashton !
Can't wait to build the deck where i'll include multiple copies of this 5 cap instead of any other better cards !
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Reyda wrote:
>
> > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> >
> > > Reyda wrote:
> > > So we can tap our vampires for no reason.!
> > >
> > >
> > Having a permanently available way to shuffle your library may be unimportant to you, but it is not "no reason".
> >
> It's nice to see i'll soon be able to shuffle my library thanks to Lord Ashton !
> Can't wait to build the deck where i'll include multiple copies of this 5 cap instead of any other better cards !
>
Reyda, I understand that you don't see the usefulness of shuffling your deck, but there are a great many ways to put cards in a specific place in your deck (top or bottom). If you can shuffle the deck, you move those known cards to other places in the deck.
For example, with Heart of Nizchetus you put some "late game" cards on the bottom of your deck. Lord Ashton's special means you don't have to wait through 80 cards to reach those cards, so you don't have to be quite as careful about ONLY Heart'ing "late game" stuff - you can put mid-game cards down there too.
Waste Management Operation is another one that puts cards on the bottom of your library.
> Miasmat wrote:
> Reyda, I understand that you don't see the usefulness of shuffling your deck, but there are a great many ways to put cards in a specific place in your deck (top or bottom). If you can shuffle the deck, you move those known cards to other places in the deck.
>
Not to mention turning inferior Hourglass of the Mind, Marrakesh Codex, Augur etc. into "draw X cards".
Oh yeah, i'm sure this much needed ruling will totally change the face of the metagame. Can't wait !
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier