new vamps in german game mag!

there were 2 promo vamps in the new copy of kartefakt Duality Tzimsce-Sabbat Group 4 und White Lily MalkavianAnti-Sabbat BH Group 4 exact stats are unkown at the moment stefan

[ quoted text not captured ] Tease. > > > stefan -John Flournoy

John Flournoy wrote: > Stefan Ferenci wrote: > > there were 2 promo vamps in the new copy of kartefakt > > > > Duality > > Tzimsce-Sabbat > > Group 4 > > > > und > > White Lily > > MalkavianAnti-Sabbat BH > > Group 4 > > According to the vekn.de forum, their stats are: Duality Clan: Tzimisce (group 4) Capacity: 6 Disciplines: ani AUS VIC Sabbat: When Duality plays a card that requires Vicissitude, you may draw an additional card. White Lily Clan: Malkavian antitribu (group 4) Capacity: 8 Disciplines: DEM OBF for dom cel Sabbat Black Hand: Once per combat, before range is determined, white Lily may equip with a weapon from your hand. (Pay cost as normal) -- Damnans http://www.almadrava.net/damnans http://www.vtes.net http://es.groups.yahoo.com/group/vteshispania/

"Damnans" <damna...@ono.com> wrote in message news:1152743410....@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > John Flournoy wrote: >> Stefan Ferenci wrote: >> > there were 2 promo vamps in the new copy of kartefakt >> > >> > Duality >> > Tzimsce-Sabbat >> > Group 4 >> > >> > und >> > White Lily >> > MalkavianAnti-Sabbat BH >> > Group 4 >> > > > According to the vekn.de forum, their stats are: > > Duality > Clan: Tzimisce (group 4) > Capacity: 6 > Disciplines: ani AUS VIC > Sabbat: When Duality plays a card that requires Vicissitude, you may > draw an additional card. > Hmm... surprised s/he isn't Black Hand in addition... that special doesn't seem like a 1-pointer. - Pat

Damnans wrote: > John Flournoy wrote: > > Stefan Ferenci wrote: > > > there were 2 promo vamps in the new copy of kartefakt > > > > > > Duality > > > Tzimsce-Sabbat > > > Group 4 > > > > > > und > > > White Lily > > > MalkavianAnti-Sabbat BH > > > Group 4 > > > > > According to the vekn.de forum, their stats are: > > Duality > Clan: Tzimisce (group 4) > Capacity: 6 > Disciplines: ani AUS VIC > Sabbat: When Duality plays a card that requires Vicissitude, you may > draw an additional card. > > White Lily > Clan: Malkavian antitribu (group 4) > Capacity: 8 > Disciplines: DEM OBF for dom cel > Sabbat Black Hand: Once per combat, before range is determined, white > Lily may equip with a weapon from your hand. (Pay cost as normal) Clearly the beneficial Black Hand trait and the detrimental Blood Cursed trait cost the same... Jeff

jeffk...@pacbell.net wrote: > > White Lily > > Clan: Malkavian antitribu (group 4) > > Capacity: 8 > > Disciplines: DEM OBF for dom cel > > Sabbat Black Hand: Once per combat, before range is determined, white > > Lily may equip with a weapon from your hand. (Pay cost as normal) > > Clearly the beneficial Black Hand trait and the detrimental Blood > Cursed trait cost the same... > Possibly they do, but Fatima has 8 points of disciplines compared to Lily's 7, and perhaps most notably has CEL compared to Lily's cel. Now, Lily's a better bleeder, but Fatima's clearly a much better fighter. Kevin Walsh

[ quoted text not captured ] Um, never mind me. It was a moment of candy-induced weakness. :) Jeff

Pat wrote: > > Duality > > Clan: Tzimisce (group 4) > > Capacity: 6 > > Disciplines: ani AUS VIC > > Sabbat: When Duality plays a card that requires Vicissitude, you may > > draw an additional card. > > > > Hmm... surprised s/he isn't Black Hand in addition... that special doesn't > seem like a 1-pointer. > > - Pat Eh...I'd say it's about right, especially considering the versatility of Vicissitude. In terms of other vampires, the only baselines we have to compare this with is Ira Rivers (Auspex) and Yseult (Melpominee). - Ira spends a point to get his Auspex additional card ability and +1 intercept on political actions (the latter is half a point at most, especially since unconditional +1 intercept is only a single point). Then again, one could argue that this is mitigated by the fact that an extremely large proportion of Auspex cards are Reactions (which limits how useful his ability is). - In Yseult's case, her Melpominee additional card ability seems to balance out her restriction of not being able to block vampires bigger than 4. It's kind of hard just how to judge this, but based on the other Daughters of Cacophony (Sayshila excepted) and also Panders, it does seem about right to say that her penalty is worth a point and her special is worth a point. In addition, her special is less useful since there are fewer Melpominee cards in existence. So in comparison to Yseult, Duality seems appropriately costed. In my personal opinion, being able to draw additional cards is most valuable: #1. in combat, #2. with action modifiers, #3. with reactions, #4. with actions. In combat, drawing additional cards often means the difference of who goes to torpor and you can normally cycle cards pretty efficiently, even more so with card drawing capability (see Infernal Pursuit and Learjet). Drawing additional cards with action modifiers helps you get the action through and is more valuable than drawing additional cards with reactions because it is proactive rather than reactive. And obviously, drawing additional cards when playing an action is limited because it's only a single card you're playing at a time. Vicissitude is very much a combat discipline (with 16 combat cards out of 25 total cards). There are also 5 action modifiers, and I've seen my share of stealthy bleedy Tzimisce decks relying on Changeling + Plasmic Form. So all in all, Duality's special seems to make him quite the combat wombat, and also useful for cycling some stealth as well. I think his ability serves him far better than Ira's or Yseult's abilities help them, which is why I would say that he is appropriately costed.

Anybody knows if these promos will be available elsewhere or if this will be second "Angelo incident"?

"chedcan" <c_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1152749482....@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > Anybody knows if these promos will be available elsewhere or if this > will be second "Angelo incident"? To put it in the terms White Wolf likes to use: Are the vampires in this magazine "promo-only" vampires or are they basically 3rd Edition preview vampires (which will also be included in 3rd Edition starter packs or boosters)? Did the magazine say? Or do the relevant White Wolf personnel lingering in the newsgroup care to say at this time? Fred

Remember that Angelo will be in the Tournament Kit from november [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] You're right about that. Now, 8-cap is a little expensive for a bleeder, but being able to Sybil's tongue (an Ivory Bow ?), untap (Freak Drive or Forced March), bleed, untap once more and rush, then equip with a weapon, is, how do I say that ? Okay in my book ? Or maybe... PURE DYNAMITE ?!?! Of course (fortunately ?) the Dom instead of AUS in synergy with DEM will make it harder to find her the right colleagues. She'll regret never being able to meet Anatole ! But I think we all had at least 2-3 deck ideas here, depending on who we can team her up with, didn't we ? ;-) -- Orpheus ------------------------- "You'll regret being so damn abusive when the electric UFO gods transphase in from dimension ten to appoint me manager of the universe". The Drummer, in Planetary.

Damnans wrote: > John Flournoy wrote: > > Stefan Ferenci wrote: > > > there were 2 promo vamps in the new copy of kartefakt > > > > > > Duality > > > Tzimsce-Sabbat > > > Group 4 > > > > > > und > > > White Lily > > > MalkavianAnti-Sabbat BH > > > Group 4 > > > > > According to the vekn.de forum, their stats are: > > Duality > Clan: Tzimisce (group 4) > Capacity: 6 > Disciplines: ani AUS VIC > Sabbat: When Duality plays a card that requires Vicissitude, you may > draw an additional card. Wow! Thats' strong! It's like a 6 cap Raven with the text "When Raven plays a card that requires Protean, you may draw an additional card." > White Lily > Clan: Malkavian antitribu (group 4) > Capacity: 8 > Disciplines: DEM OBF for dom cel > Sabbat Black Hand: Once per combat, before range is determined, white > Lily may equip with a weapon from your hand. (Pay cost as normal) DEM OBF- dirty stealth bleeder dom- bounce defence cel- combat support Black Hand- BH tricks like Ministry +int to substitute for no AUS Weapon Special- Combat defense with guns No power creep going on here....Nope not happening here....Move along....Nothing to see. Argh! I hate the fucking Malks/!Malks, and they get a vampire like this! What do the Gangrel get?! They get Xaviar who is a 10 with the shoot yourself in the foot special! What do the !Gangrel get? They get Enkidu, an 11 cap with Justicar's Disease! Don't even get me started with the !Tremere! Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

> > White Lily > > Clan: Malkavian antitribu (group 4) > > Capacity: 8 > > Disciplines: DEM OBF for dom cel > > Sabbat Black Hand: Once per combat, before range is determined, white > > Lily may equip with a weapon from your hand. (Pay cost as normal) > > DEM OBF- dirty stealth bleeder > dom- bounce defence > cel- combat support > Black Hand- BH tricks like Ministry +int to substitute for no AUS > Weapon Special- Combat defense with guns > > No power creep going on here....Nope not happening here....Move > along....Nothing to see. looooooooooooool > Argh! I hate the fucking Malks/!Malks, and they get a vampire like > this! What do the Gangrel get?! They get Xaviar who is a 10 with the > shoot yourself in the foot special! What do the !Gangrel get? They get > Enkidu, an 11 cap with Justicar's Disease! Agreed about Xaviar, but in the right hands Enkidu wins tables. Afraid about Inner Circle (he doesn't fear Justicar's, if we're talking PTO here) disease ? Try "Out of the Frying Pan". And it's not like he's afraid of Banishments, or as Arika can make him be Obedient... > Don't even get me started with the !Tremere! The what ? [ quoted text not captured ]

Orpheus wrote: > > Argh! I hate the fucking Malks/!Malks, and they get a vampire like > > this! What do the Gangrel get?! They get Xaviar who is a 10 with the > > shoot yourself in the foot special! What do the !Gangrel get? They get > > Enkidu, an 11 cap with Justicar's Disease! > Agreed about Xaviar, but in the right hands Enkidu wins tables. Provided the right hands can weave his Curse with a sudden motion, then the right hands can concentrate on overcomin' his Justicar's Disease :) My beef with vampires like Xaviar and Enkidu is that playing 10- and 11-caps are already a risk by themselves, even Arika. Get rushed by the "right hands" and poof, 1/3 of your starting pool goes down the toilet. If your 10- or 11-cap is already meant for combat, you're just increasing the chances the dunk will happen more often. :P Fabio "Sooner" Macedo

> Afraid about Inner Circle (he doesn't fear Justicar's, if we're talking PTO > here) disease ? > Try "Out of the Frying Pan". And it's not like he's afraid of Banishments, > or as Arika can make him be Obedient... I am familiar with Enkidu, but compared to Mr. "All that and a bag of chips" !Malk he isn't that great. Enkidu, potentially, has problems taking this guy down in a fight (okay, well DotB does hose Mr KooKoo Gunslinger) > > Don't even get me started with the !Tremere! > > The what ? Yeah, well see they're this clan of renegade sorcerers that have all sorts of hot background story, but kind of got kicked in the 'nads by the canon storyline, so they didn't support them for a coon's age and then given a space-wedgie in playtest, then was given a swirley by LSJ as the most interesting vampire Ian Forrestall got nerfed. ....realIy I'm not bitter. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > > Don't even get me started with the !Tremere! > > > > The what ? > > Yeah, well see they're this clan of renegade sorcerers that have all > sorts of hot background story, but kind of got kicked in the 'nads by > the canon storyline, so they didn't support them for a coon's age and > then given a space-wedgie in playtest, then was given a swirley by LSJ > as the most interesting vampire Ian Forrestall got nerfed. What, with his ruling about how he didn't really have those disciplines ? It doesn't make him less playable except for a few cornercase problems (Kiss of Rā...). But you might be talking of something else ? I still love that vamp anyway. And seriously, the Trem / !Trem crypt is still a killer (although some play without !Trems) ; the "normal" !Trem gargoyles stink and are in low numbers compared to the cammies, but Tupdogs are rumored to have some use... And some people also pretend that Nephandi make some wins from time to time ? But the Sabbat does need some more boosts in all their clans, that's for sure. I'm personnaly hoping for a few good Black Hand new cards in 3rd Ed that could make a real difference, in which case Yasmin and Selena could become good core vampires. > ....realIy I'm not bitter. We can tell ! ;-) -- Orpheus ----------------------- I'm dead serious ! Well, mostly dead...

"Stefan Ferenci" <a950...@unet.univie.ac.at> wrote in news:1152734124....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com: [ quoted text not captured ] Wow. A day into this announcement, with no one from our side of the pond bitching about how *agonizingly* unfair it is (back of palm to forehead) that the EU gets access to these two, and we don't. :-) DZ AW hopes they're not available in the US for a year...

atomweaver wrote: > Wow. A day into this announcement, with no one from our side of the pond > bitching about how *agonizingly* unfair it is (back of palm to forehead) > that the EU gets access to these two, and we don't. :-) > > DZ > AW > hopes they're not available in the US for a year... Yes, and my hope is that in return, we won't be hearing any b*tching this year about delayed pre-releases, shipping/custom problems, and not getting the cards at the same time...

XZealot wrote: > > Duality > > Clan: Tzimisce (group 4) > > Capacity: 6 > > Disciplines: ani AUS VIC > > Sabbat: When Duality plays a card that requires Vicissitude, you may > > draw an additional card. > > Wow! Thats' strong! It's like a 6 cap Raven with the text "When Raven > plays a card that requires Protean, you may draw an additional card." Agreed. > > White Lily > > Clan: Malkavian antitribu (group 4) > > Capacity: 8 > > Disciplines: DEM OBF for dom cel > > Sabbat Black Hand: Once per combat, before range is determined, white > > Lily may equip with a weapon from your hand. (Pay cost as normal) > > DEM OBF- dirty stealth bleeder > dom- bounce defence > cel- combat support > Black Hand- BH tricks like Ministry +int to substitute for no AUS > Weapon Special- Combat defense with guns > > No power creep going on here....Nope not happening here....Move > along....Nothing to see. > > Argh! I hate the fucking Malks/!Malks, and they get a vampire like > this! I agree that there has been a steady power creep the past few sets and that typically the Malks/!Malks seem to get a lot of love, but I don't think White Lily is an example of this (Louhi, Alicia, and Marie would make better examples IMHO). Maybe it's just me, but I actually think White Lily is subpar for what you're paying for. Since she only has 7 discipline points, she's paying an awful lot for her Black Hand and her special. And the lack of Auspex really hurts her synergy with other members of her clan. Compare to Teresita for example. Teresita has 7 points of disciplines (just like White Lily). White Lily has Black Hand and a special. Teresita has Black Hand, Seraph, and a minor special. White Lily is an 8 while Teresita is a 7. White Lily's okay, but I really don't think she's all that. However I'm certainly willing to entertain arguments that say otherwise. > What do the Gangrel get?! They get Xaviar who is a 10 with the > shoot yourself in the foot special! What do the !Gangrel get? They get > Enkidu, an 11 cap with Justicar's Disease! > > > Don't even get me started with the !Tremere! Regarding the Gangrel/!Gangrel, I think they're pretty well off. Protean is ridiculously good, they have access to great clan cards (Gather, Bay and Howl, Leathery Hide). And though some of their large caps aren't perfect, they generally have an excellent selection of vampires (especially weenies and midcaps). Yeah, Xaviar sucks but Enkidu and Una are quite good. Gangrel have plenty of sleazy DOM/PRO (Stanislava, Ingrid, Iliana) and also some really annoying PRO/SER (Mirembe and Nadima). And you can't go wrong with solid midcaps like Horrock, Celeste, Janey, Harry, Darrell, and Sophia. Um...just to make sure, are you saying that the !Tremere are getting great stuff or crappy stuff?

XZealot wrote: > > > Don't even get me started with the !Tremere! > > > > The what ? > > Yeah, well see they're this clan of renegade sorcerers that have all > sorts of hot background story, but kind of got kicked in the 'nads by > the canon storyline, so they didn't support them for a coon's age and > then given a space-wedgie in playtest, then was given a swirley by LSJ > as the most interesting vampire Ian Forrestall got nerfed. > > ....realIy I'm not bitter. Yeah, I guess if there's one thing that WotC & White Wolf are consistant in, it's been giving the Tremere Antitribu the short end of the stick. Even before the unceremonious genocide, they were constantly being shat on by the Lasombra and Tzimisce (though surprisingly enough, they garnered a significant amount of respect from the other Sabbat clans). Even if it were thematic, one would hope that play balance & fairness would take precedence. I mean, having to deal with Dauntain Black Magician, Infamous Warlock, and Ayelea (who shows up in a surprising number of Lasombra/Kiasyd decks) is bad enough, but Goratrix Advanced was just adding insult to injury! Thankfully, White Wolf has been nicer recently. We have Tupdogs to keep Pugfar company (the ratio of Tremere:!Tremere slaves in Bloodlines was disturbing). From KMW, Valerius Maior Advanced is kewl (though The Name Forgotten is wallpaper). Gehenna brought the solid Ladislas Toth (and the horribly crappy crappy CRAPPY Jacob the Glitch). Etc. Things have been getting better, but the !Tremere are still a *long* way from catching up with the other Sabbat clans, let alone the Camarilla and Independents. (They're still down a clan card due to their absence in Sabbat War and down an Advanced vampire since the Tremere poached Goratrix in Black Hand). In fact, I would argue that out of all the major (non-Bloodlines) clans, the Tremere Antitribu are right near the bottom. Second-worst, only a notch above the bottom-of-the-barrel Brujah Antitribu. (With the addition of the Laibon, maybe the !Brujah and !Tremere can start a "loser" club with the Osebo?). I'm really glad that both the !Brujah and !Tremere are getting starters in 3rd Edition cause they seriously need any boost they can get to make them at least marginally competitive... I'm not sure what the space-wedgie in playtest and the nerfing of Ian refer to however. Care to enlighten me?

> Argh! I hate the fucking Malks/!Malks, and they get a vampire like > this! ;) oscar

Orpheus wrote: > > Yeah, well see they're this clan of renegade sorcerers that have all > > sorts of hot background story, but kind of got kicked in the 'nads by > > the canon storyline, so they didn't support them for a coon's age and > > then given a space-wedgie in playtest, then was given a swirley by LSJ > > as the most interesting vampire Ian Forrestall got nerfed. > > What, with his ruling about how he didn't really have those disciplines ? It > doesn't make him less playable except for a few cornercase problems (Kiss of > Râ...). But you might be talking of something else ? I still love that vamp > anyway. Ian's great. One of the few "unique" things about the clan. I also have no clue what this nerfing was about. > And seriously, the Trem / !Trem crypt is still a killer (although some play > without !Trems) ; the "normal" !Trem gargoyles stink and are in low numbers > compared to the cammies, but Tupdogs are rumored to have some use... And > some people also pretend that Nephandi make some wins from time to time ? > > But the Sabbat does need some more boosts in all their clans, that's for > sure. I'm personnaly hoping for a few good Black Hand new cards in 3rd Ed > that could make a real difference, in which case Yasmin and Selena could > become good core vampires. Um...I would hardly call the !Tremere crypt "killer." (Of the original Sabbat set, Ayelea, Ethan, Kij, Bryan, and Kurt are subpar for what you are paying. Richard gets screwed over - compare to Hugo, Alejandro sucks, and Jacob's disadvantage makes him too much of a liability in most decks). Anyway, the Tremere crypt is a whole lot better than the !Tremere one. I think the !Tremere gargoyles are great - they just need some more deck options. The problem with Pugfar for so long was that he had no one to play with. Now he has Tupdogs and Reindoctrinated former Tremere slaves. While Tupdog can be a strong addition, only very very few deck types can actually use him well. I do hope that when Group 4 Gargoyles are fleshed out, there's a better balance between Tremere & !Tremere slaves... Selena and Yasmin are great vampires. Unfortunately they have limited synergy with other Black Hand vampires, especially since no other Black Hand vampire has any degree of Thaumaturgy.

Orpheus wrote: > > > White Lily > > > Clan: Malkavian antitribu (group 4) > > > Capacity: 8 > > > Disciplines: DEM OBF for dom cel > > > Sabbat Black Hand: Once per combat, before range is determined, white > > > Lily may equip with a weapon from your hand. (Pay cost as normal) > > > > DEM OBF- dirty stealth bleeder > > dom- bounce defence > > cel- combat support > > Black Hand- BH tricks like Ministry +int to substitute for no AUS > > Weapon Special- Combat defense with guns > > > > No power creep going on here....Nope not happening here....Move > > along....Nothing to see. > > looooooooooooool > > > Argh! I hate the fucking Malks/!Malks, and they get a vampire like > > this! What do the Gangrel get?! They get Xaviar who is a 10 with the > > shoot yourself in the foot special! What do the !Gangrel get? They get > > Enkidu, an 11 cap with Justicar's Disease! > > Agreed about Xaviar, but in the right hands Enkidu wins tables. > > Afraid about Inner Circle (he doesn't fear Justicar's, if we're talking PTO > here) disease ? > Try "Out of the Frying Pan". And it's not like he's afraid of Banishments, > or as Arika can make him be Obedient... Justicar's Disease is inferior in-clan Fortitude. See Angus the Unruled, Democritus, and for a stretch, Kyle Strathcona, Cardinal of Canuckistan. -- Dorrinal Blackmantle Tremere Justicar has inferior Fortitude, too.

XZealot wrote: > Argh! I hate the fucking Malks/!Malks, and they get a vampire like > this! What do the Gangrel get?! They get Xaviar who is a 10 with the > shoot yourself in the foot special! What do the !Gangrel get? They get > Enkidu, an 11 cap with Justicar's Disease! Cause he really needed that 12th discipline level, eh? You can alternately view him as 'a kick-ass city !Gangrel 11-cap that has all his inclans plus the bonus of ANI POT for and some good specials'... > Comments Welcome, > Norman S. Brown, Jr -John Flournoy

echia...@yahoo.com wrote: > Orpheus wrote: > > > Yeah, well see they're this clan of renegade sorcerers that have all > > > sorts of hot background story, but kind of got kicked in the 'nads by > > > the canon storyline, so they didn't support them for a coon's age and > > > then given a space-wedgie in playtest, then was given a swirley by LSJ > > > as the most interesting vampire Ian Forrestall got nerfed. > > > > What, with his ruling about how he didn't really have those disciplines ? It > > doesn't make him less playable except for a few cornercase problems (Kiss of > > Râ...). But you might be talking of something else ? I still love that vamp > > anyway. > > > Ian's great. One of the few "unique" things about the clan. I also have > no clue what this nerfing was about. Your kidding right.... If you jump through though the hoops of fire, dive off the cliffs of despair and swim past the shreiking eels to Sanguine Instruction Ian he doesn't gain the superior discipline. If you climb the highest mountain, swim the deepest sea, and go on a hunger strike turn him into a Tzimice and play Haven Affinity on him. It doesn't do anything. <golf clap> Also, totally unrelated to Ian Forrestal getting smacked around like one of the Three Stooges, You can't play Infernal Pact on a !Tremere and then Sanguine Instruction the Infernally Pacted Discipline. I mean does anyone else see this as just brutally unjust. Oooh! Where's the humanity? Comments Welcome. [ quoted text not captured ]

John Flournoy wrote: > XZealot wrote: > > Argh! I hate the fucking Malks/!Malks, and they get a vampire like > > this! What do the Gangrel get?! They get Xaviar who is a 10 with the > > shoot yourself in the foot special! What do the !Gangrel get? They get > > Enkidu, an 11 cap with Justicar's Disease! > > Cause he really needed that 12th discipline level, eh? > > You can alternately view him as 'a kick-ass city !Gangrel 11-cap that > has all his inclans plus the bonus of ANI POT for and some good > specials'... > -John Flournoy Versus say using Lorrie "My hair looks like this because I fell asleep with my head in the oven" Dunsirn. Who is a freakin' 4 cap! Well, excuse me while I slip into something more comfortable, like this STRAIGHTJACKET! Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr [ quoted text not captured ]

> > You can alternately view him as 'a kick-ass city !Gangrel 11-cap that > > has all his inclans plus the bonus of ANI POT for and some good > > specials'... > > > -John Flournoy > > Versus say using Lorrie "My hair looks like this because I fell asleep > with my head in the oven" Dunsirn. Who is a freakin' 4 cap! Who would be really good if she could rush. But she needs a card for that. And you'll pay pool for it. Sure, in a deck where she intercepts at Nec and with locs she could be great, but... > Well, excuse me while I slip into something more comfortable, like this > STRAIGHTJACKET! So, are you comfortable ? I always had trouble fitting all my tentacles in those... [ quoted text not captured ]

Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote: > > > Argh! I hate the fucking Malks/!Malks, and they get a vampire like > > > this! What do the Gangrel get?! They get Xaviar who is a 10 with the > > > shoot yourself in the foot special! What do the !Gangrel get? They get > > > Enkidu, an 11 cap with Justicar's Disease! > > > > Agreed about Xaviar, but in the right hands Enkidu wins tables. > > > > Afraid about Inner Circle (he doesn't fear Justicar's, if we're talking PTO > > here) disease ? > > Try "Out of the Frying Pan". And it's not like he's afraid of Banishments, > > or as Arika can make him be Obedient... > > Justicar's Disease is inferior in-clan Fortitude. See Angus the > Unruled, Democritus, and for a stretch, Kyle Strathcona, Cardinal of > Canuckistan. > > -- > Dorrinal Blackmantle > Tremere Justicar has inferior Fortitude, too. Yes, based on the latest research, it appears that Justicar's Disease may have a genetic basis with the relevant genes located on the sex chromosomes. Let's look at the empirical evidence: Angus the Unruled: Male, "for" Democritus: Male, "for" Sheldon Lord of the Clog: Male, "for" Ulugh Beg the Watcher: Male, "for" Jaroslav Pascek: Male, "for" Enkidu: Nominally Male (ignoring the dual aspect), "for" Kyle Strathcona: Male, "for" Madame Guil: Female, "for" Lucinde Alastor: Female, "FOR" Gwendolyn: Female, "FOR" Stanislava: Female, "FOR" Arika: Female, "FOR" Ezmeralda: Female, "FOR" Hmm...seems like the only way to get superior Fortitude if you're a Justicar or an 11-cap is to be female...Justicar Disease must be a sex-linked trait located on the X chromosome (similar to red-green color blindness)...

John Flournoy wrote: > XZealot wrote: > > Argh! I hate the fucking Malks/!Malks, and they get a vampire like > > this! What do the Gangrel get?! They get Xaviar who is a 10 with the > > shoot yourself in the foot special! What do the !Gangrel get? They get > > Enkidu, an 11 cap with Justicar's Disease! > > Cause he really needed that 12th discipline level, eh? > > You can alternately view him as 'a kick-ass city !Gangrel 11-cap that > has all his inclans plus the bonus of ANI POT for and some good > specials'... Well, the other abnormalities are Leandro only have inferior Dominate and Helena having only inferior Presence. Of course in the case of Enkidu and Helena, it seems likely the inferiors were given for the purpose of balance. Enkidu is a combat wombat with two specials based around actions. Enkidu Rush + Freak Drive + Employ Retainer + Freak Drive + Take another action + untap at the end of the turn would be rather strong. At least with inferior Fortitude, you can shut down Freak Drive (and Forced March) by blocking him...assuming you can counter his OBF/PRO. In Helena's case, her special seems like it was worded expressly to limit abuse (can block or play Auspex reactions only). With superior PRE, she could use her ability to block while tapped, Majesty to untap during combat, and since she's now untapped she can use DOM to Deflect away all day. Etc. So play balance seems to be a likely culprit on why Enkidu only has inferior Fortitude.

[ quoted text not captured ] Nah, all you gotta do is sleep with the designer. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] "Hey baby.. why don't check out my crib? I'm all "FOR" that!"

"atomweaver" <atomw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:Xns97FF763DC8...@207.115.17.102... > Wow. A day into this announcement, with no one from our side of the pond > bitching about how *agonizingly* unfair it is (back of palm to forehead) > that the EU gets access to these two, and we don't. :-) I don't know. It seems like when such bitching occurs in advance of the whole story being known, someone on our side of the pond always gets mad about the, I don't know what you'd call it, "premature anger". Anyway, after Angelo, maybe it wouldn't be a totally bad thing if Americans couldn't get a card or two, no matter how many trips to Atlanta they made. We should all get a taste of stupid once in a while so we can readily recognize it when we see it. Fred

"Fred Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in news:xawtg.1754$Mz3.989@fed1read07: [ quoted text not captured ] In case my point was missed (I don't think it was, but still...) I think that in general, _no_ North American would be terribly bent out of shape for not having access to a particular card, say, if it was an EU-exclusive promo for Lotus Noir, or some such... It just seems to be basically a non- issue Here vs. in the EU. (I know you're an exception, Fred, but for other reasons than regional availability) *shrug* I guess we're too dense to learn this lesson from our European friends too. (DZ goes off to watch some baseball, for some further shunning of S-O-C-C-E-R ;-) DZ AW

"atomweaver" <atomw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:Xns97FF97D8F...@207.115.17.102... > In case my point was missed (I don't think it was, but still...) I think > that in general, _no_ North American would be terribly bent out of shape > for not having access to a particular card, say, if it was an EU-exclusive > promo for Lotus Noir, or some such... I don't know why you would assume that. I gather that a fair number of people outside of the U.S. got annoyed by non-access to Angelo and I see no reason that Americans shouldn't get likewise annoyed when/if it happens to us. In case my point was missed (I don't think it was, but still...), printing promos that huge sections of the player population can't get - or pay hell to get - is stupid. > It just seems to be basically a non-issue Here vs. in the EU. (I know > you're an exception, Fred, but for other reasons than regional availability) I think it's a non-issue in your mind so you're assuming that others wouldn't mind it either. Since we've only just heard about this yesterday and we don't exactly know what it means yet, such assumptions are highly premature. Fred

The relevant thread in the German VTES web forum now sports scans of the two cards, here: http://forum.vekn.de/viewtopic.php?t=2581 Greetings, Hardy Range Prince of Bochum, Germany

"Fred Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in news:ERwtg.1755$Mz3.439@fed1read07: > "atomweaver" <atomw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:Xns97FF97D8F...@207.115.17.102... >> In case my point was missed (I don't think it was, but still...) I >> think that in general, _no_ North American would be terribly bent out >> of shape for not having access to a particular card, say, if it was >> an EU-exclusive promo for Lotus Noir, or some such... > > I don't know why you would assume that. I gather that a fair number > of people outside of the U.S. got annoyed by non-access to Angelo and > I see no reason that Americans shouldn't get likewise annoyed when/if > it happens to us. In case my point was missed (I don't think it was, > but still...), printing promos that huge sections of the player > population can't get - or pay hell to get - is stupid. > Right, I understood your opinion. I also understood that you were opposed to limited access to _any_ card, regardless of the specifics of how "limited" was implemented (regional, through tournaments, etc...) So your objections encompass this, but also go beyond it in scope, to a larger issue. >> It just seems to be basically a non-issue Here vs. in the EU. (I know >> you're an exception, Fred, but for other reasons than regional >> availability) > > I think it's a non-issue in your mind so you're assuming that others > wouldn't mind it either. Since we've only just heard about this > yesterday and we don't exactly know what it means yet, such > assumptions are highly premature. > Premature? Well, sure. Most speculation is premature by definition. ;-) It is a forward-looking comment, I admit. But I'll stand by it as a resonable prediction. (The coming weeks may prove me wrong, but I doubt it). IIRC, you didn't have a lot of advocates for your position on limited access to promos, the last time it was debated here. Granted, I recognize the low value of Usenet for gauging such things, but I also have a fair bit of contact with groups through travel, so I don't base such opinions solely on what goes on in this little corner of Teh Innernet. I guess i'm just saying I find the general attitude towards promos in North America to be a bit more... Bakija-esque than it is Fred- Scottish, if you will. DZ AW

echia...@yahoo.com wrote: > John Flournoy wrote: > Well, the other abnormalities are Leandro only have inferior Dominate > and Helena having only inferior Presence. > > Of course in the case of Enkidu and Helena, it seems likely the > inferiors were given for the purpose of balance. Enkidu is a combat > wombat with two specials based around actions. Enkidu Rush + Freak > Drive + Employ Retainer + Freak Drive + Take another action + untap at > the end of the turn would be rather strong. At least with inferior > Fortitude, you can shut down Freak Drive (and Forced March) by blocking > him...assuming you can counter his OBF/PRO. Again, arguably, Enkidu doesn't have an 'abnormality' if viewed as a City Gangrel Antitribu - in that case, he has all his in-clan at superior and a bunch of very useful out-of-clans. Possibly _better_ out of clans than most big vamps. > So play balance seems to be a likely culprit on why > Enkidu only has inferior Fortitude. Another culprit: Enkidu with FOR would have been the 4th vampire in group 3/4 with FOR PRO CEL POT, something playtesters noted and suggested avoiding (especially since one of the others was also !Gangrel). But yeah, no doubt play balance factored in quite heavily too. -John Flournoy

[ quoted text not captured ] And for folks not interested in logging into vekn.de: http://dorrinal.tripod.com/promos.html -- Dorrinal Blackmantle Chantry Elder of Salt Lake City

Orpheus wrote: > > > You can alternately view him as 'a kick-ass city !Gangrel 11-cap that > > > has all his inclans plus the bonus of ANI POT for and some good > > > specials'... > > > > > -John Flournoy > > > > Versus say using Lorrie "My hair looks like this because I fell asleep > > with my head in the oven" Dunsirn. Who is a freakin' 4 cap! > > Who would be really good if she could rush. But she needs a card for that. > And you'll pay pool for it. Sure, in a deck where she intercepts at Nec and > with locs she could be great, but.. Oh wow! A card for a pool. Wow so now she costs 5 pool and inflicts 8 damage each combat cardlessly with 1 rush card. Top that shit Endiku! > > Well, excuse me while I slip into something more comfortable, like this > > STRAIGHTJACKET! > > So, are you comfortable ? I always had trouble fitting all my tentacles in > those... Tentacles? I had mine circumsized, you heathen. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Wow. A day into this announcement, with no one from our side of the > pond bitching about how *agonizingly* unfair it is (back of palm to > forehead) that the EU gets access to these two, and we don't. :-) Does this count? I mean, I know it's not bitching, but it almost sounds like you're nostalgic about the fact that there hasn't been any griping yet. :) Ankur can turn anything into whining as a +1 stealth action

echia...@yahoo.com wrote: > In fact, I would argue that out of all the major (non-Bloodlines) > clans, the Tremere Antitribu are right near the bottom. Second-worst, > only a notch above the bottom-of-the-barrel Brujah Antitribu. I'm kind of curious about why the Brujah Antitribu don't seem to do well in tournaments. Sure, they lack good fatties, but their midcaps and weenies are rock-solid. I don't think there's any other Clan in the game that's as focussed on their in-Clan disciplines as the Brujah Antitribu. Sure, their G3 guys weren't great, but it would have been hard to improve on the crypt they had without handing out built in Rushes or +intercept. Kevin Walsh

> The relevant thread in the German VTES web forum now sports scans of > the two cards, here: I vote for Duality as "worst VTES artwork ever". Just my 2 cent, Simon

Kevin Walsh wrote: > echia...@yahoo.com wrote: > > In fact, I would argue that out of all the major (non-Bloodlines) > > clans, the Tremere Antitribu are right near the bottom. Second-worst, > > only a notch above the bottom-of-the-barrel Brujah Antitribu. > > I'm kind of curious about why the Brujah Antitribu don't seem to do > well in tournaments. Sure, they lack good fatties, but their midcaps because everything they do can be done better with Brujah, with their access to dominate and second traditions. As for the crypt - yes, Sela is great, but so is Anvil. Amelia is good, but for only one extra pool, you can get Donal or Constanza with great specials, DOM and two votes. I have a huge arsenal of pot, pre and cel cards, complete crypt twice, all the their clan cards..but always, when I try to build something sensible out of it, I stop in the middle and say to myself, wait, why dont I make the same (but better) deck with !Toreador? or Brujah? or Ishtarri? the only reason might be masochism which I am lacking :)) [ quoted text not captured ]

> > > In fact, I would argue that out of all the major (non-Bloodlines) > > > clans, the Tremere Antitribu are right near the bottom. Second-worst, > > > only a notch above the bottom-of-the-barrel Brujah Antitribu. > > > > I'm kind of curious about why the Brujah Antitribu don't seem to do > > well in tournaments. Sure, they lack good fatties, but their midcaps > > because everything they do can be done better with Brujah, with their > access to dominate and second traditions. Not to mention Parity Shift and Anathema. Also, they don't have a Theo Bell (yet, but maybe in 3rd Ed...). > As for the crypt - yes, Sela > is great, but so is Anvil. Amelia is good, but for only one extra pool, > you can get Donal or Constanza with great specials, DOM and two votes. > > I have a huge arsenal of pot, pre and cel cards, complete crypt twice, > all the their clan cards..but always, when I try to build something > sensible out of it, I stop in the middle and say to myself, wait, why > dont I make the same (but better) deck with !Toreador? or Brujah? or > Ishtarri? the only reason might be masochism which I am lacking :)) As of now you can make a better Iron Glare / Scalpel Tongue crypt than with Brujahs. Of course this will change as soon as the Brujahs get "normal" Princes with in-clan disciplines instead of superior Dominate. They also have Miguel Santo Domingo and quite a few guys with For, and I have seen some Richter-Miguel based decks that work quite efficiently. Nothing like EuroBrujahs, of course. > > and weenies are rock-solid. I don't think there's any other Clan in the > > game that's as focussed on their in-Clan disciplines as the Brujah > > Antitribu. Sure, their G3 guys weren't great, but it would have been > > hard to improve on the crypt they had without handing out built in > > Rushes or +intercept. And giving another Theo compatible with G2 would have been destructive. Now, in G4, it would be quite logic if the rush came to the Sabbat... -- Orpheus ------------------- "- You got married ? - Yes. - Why ? - Why do people get married ? - Passive aggressive neurosis." Matt Murdock and Natasha Romanovna

Fred Scott wrote: > "chedcan" <c_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:1152749482....@35g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > > Anybody knows if these promos will be available elsewhere or if this > > will be second "Angelo incident"? > > To put it in the terms White Wolf likes to use: Are the vampires > in this magazine "promo-only" vampires or are they basically > 3rd Edition preview vampires (which will also be included in > 3rd Edition starter packs or boosters)? Did the magazine > say? > > Or do the relevant White Wolf personnel lingering in the newsgroup > care to say at this time? And, if they should indeed be "promo only" cards, what is their official release date (so we can calculate the date they are legal for tournament use)? [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <1152865694.0...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>, Alias <ransom...@seznam.cz> writes: >Kevin Walsh wrote: >> I'm kind of curious about why the Brujah Antitribu don't seem to do >> well in tournaments. Sure, they lack good fatties, but their midcaps > >because everything they do can be done better with Brujah, with their >access to dominate and second traditions. As for the crypt - yes, Sela >is great, but so is Anvil. Amelia is good, but for only one extra pool, >you can get Donal or Constanza with great specials, DOM and two votes. Similarly, the Group 1/2 Brujah have some of the best access to political clout in the game - Donal, Constanza, Rake, Volker, making them much more versatile than just beats. The same versatility is massively lacking in the !Brujah. They can get a small Priscus (group 4), or have two choices for Sela (group 2) so she can be a Bishop or Archbishop, and Bishop isn't quite so crappy as Primogen, though doesn't help as much for passing votes as a Prince. But this still isn't great. The Brujah can use this to try to put together solid Archon vote-death decks - and Archon is better than Templar, because of the blood hunt immunity. Oh, and Anathema is better than, oh, the Sabbat don't have a version of Anathema. And the Brujah have Carthage Remembered, and can even use Oxford University to pass votes (making up for the lack of PRE on key voters) and to drive the follow-up Parity Shift. The !Brujah, on the other hand, have very solid combat in their mid- caps. (Their weenies can be stolen and used by whoever, no problem.) Which is great and all, except you don't want solid mid-cap combat - it's not efficient enough, unless you can turn it into good multi-rush (e.g. Tariq, Fatima etc.) or have good backup, like Anathema. Number of !Brujah with Fortitude - 2. Richter, Miguel. Group 2, Group 3. Number of !Brujah with superior Fortitude. Zero. So block their rushes, and untapping is much harder! Similarly, 3 with Dom, none with DOM, 3 with Aus, none with AUS. Bleed bounce is hard. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

[ quoted text not captured ] Who would not want to log in to vekn.de? Absurd. ;-) -- johannes walch

[ quoted text not captured ] In fact I like the artwork. Seems to correlate to the name Duality and some sort of bi-sexuality as I would interpret it. -- johannes walch

Ankur Gupta <agu...@cs.duke.edu> wrote in news:Pine.LNX.4.63.06...@fiordland.cs.duke.edu: >> Wow. A day into this announcement, with no one from our side of the >> pond bitching about how *agonizingly* unfair it is (back of palm to >> forehead) that the EU gets access to these two, and we don't. :-) > > Does this count? I mean, I know it's not bitching, but it almost sounds > like you're nostalgic about the fact that there hasn't been any griping > yet. :) > Does it count as bitching about access to cards? Nope. Does it count as bitching about EU bitching? Sure does!! ;-) DZ AW

[ quoted text not captured ] As far as vampire portraits go, you'll be hard-pressed to find worse artwork than Uzoma. -- Dorrinal Blackmantle

In message <1152867020....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, Hardy Range <hardy...@gmx.de> writes: >And, if they should indeed be "promo only" cards, what is their >official release date (so we can calculate the date they are legal for >tournament use)? Whether they're promo-only or not, they've been released in advance of the set and will have a release date of July anyway. See e.g. Lucita: [Promo-20020811, SW:PL] Promo released in advance of the rest of her set. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > Similarly, the Group 1/2 Brujah have some of the best access to > political clout in the game - Donal, Constanza, Rake, Volker, making > them much more versatile than just beats. The same versatility is > massively lacking in the !Brujah. I don't buy that at all. Sure, the !Brujah don't have as many built in votes, but they're way better at passing votes than the Brujah, because they have PRE all over the place, and Brujah voters by and large don't even have pre. A Brujah bruise 'n' vote deck is just as liable to be blocked, and is more often going to be in a position where it can't get any votes through. > The Brujah can use this to try to put together solid Archon vote-death > decks - and Archon is better than Templar, because of the blood hunt > immunity. Oh, and Anathema is better than, oh, the Sabbat don't have a > version of Anathema. And don't have Second Trad either, of course. And the Brujah have Carthage Remembered, and can > even use Oxford University to pass votes (making up for the lack of PRE > on key voters) and to drive the follow-up Parity Shift. > Well, the !Brujah have Powerbase: Madrid, Bewitching Oration, Scalpel Tongue, Awe and Voter Captivation, all of which are decent to good cards. > The !Brujah, on the other hand, have very solid combat in their mid- > caps. (Their weenies can be stolen and used by whoever, no problem.) > Which is great and all, except you don't want solid mid-cap combat - > it's not efficient enough, unless you can turn it into good multi-rush > (e.g. Tariq, Fatima etc.) or have good backup, like Anathema. > I'd never advocate building a pure combat deck with !Brujah. But using Enchant Kindred for bloating and Heart of the City for cheap permanent +2 bleed has worked pretty well in my rather limited environment. Kevin Walsh

On 14 Jul 2006 01:02:02 -0700, "Kevin Walsh" <hja...@redbrick.dcu.ie> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Their discipline mix is bad. Brujah get the "Camarilla boost" and the "oh, yeah, out of clan Dominate is some good" advantage, but if you look at the number of tournament winning decks, the Brujah aren't doing that well either. I would echo Eric's remarks that !Brujah and !Trem are full of weakness. Tupdog sure pumps up the Gargoyle number of victories. I'd look to giving some help to Celerity (in terms of doing something besides combat support), Thaumaturgy, and multidiscipline cards with these disciplines.

> I don't know why you would assume that. I gather that a fair number of > people outside of the U.S. got annoyed by non-access to Angelo and I see > no reason that Americans shouldn't get likewise annoyed when/if it happens > to us. In case my point was missed (I don't think it was, but still...), > printing promos that huge sections of the player population can't get - or > pay hell to get - is stupid. Well and its just not right that Europeans could get the card. It would take around 3 minnuts to buy them online and then wait a week to get them. Then problem here is as always, ppl. would rather see roblems then solve them you self. Cheers /Jesper

On 17 Jul 2006 11:07:48 -0700, <bubbi...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Well and its just not right that Europeans could get the card. It would > take around 3 minnuts to buy them online and then wait a week to get > them. > > Then problem here is as always, ppl. would rather see roblems then > solve them you self. I'm curious what a "roblem" is in this context. It sounds rather vicious. Maybe it is the word used to describe the plagiarism committed against a great Polish science-fiction writer... Also, "ppl."? I'm also not sure what the Pokémon Puzzle League has to do with this. Is this one of those conspiracies? Is the secret message hidden behind the apparent innocence of this sentence... that the Pokémon Puzzle League is trying to plagiarize one of the world's greatest sci-fi authors? Sic transit gloria mundi... ;( (I guess the key to understanding the analogy is deep down at the roots of the "min" nut, which is a very special kind of nut - not only does it allow you to buy all the inhabitants of Europe over the Internet, it also elevates your poetic vein to Olympian heights.) ...maybe I'm just a bit too tired. ;) I guess I'll just take a min nut or two and order an Orpheus on e-Bay (You know, he's that guy that almost made it to LSJ's famous killfile...). -- Regards, Daneel

<bubbi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:1153159668.7...@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >> I don't know why you would assume that. I gather that a fair number of >> people outside of the U.S. got annoyed by non-access to Angelo and I see >> no reason that Americans shouldn't get likewise annoyed when/if it happens >> to us. In case my point was missed (I don't think it was, but still...), >> printing promos that huge sections of the player population can't get - or >> pay hell to get - is stupid. > > Well and its just not right that Europeans could get the card. It would > take around 3 minnuts to buy them online and then wait a week to get > them. What, you mean "take around 3 minutes to buy" *Angelo* online? Gosh, where would you get an idea like that? Eventually, I did find a means of just buying the magazine containing Angelo online, but it was no simple or riskless feat. > Then problem here is as always, ppl. would rather see roblems then > solve them you self. I guess it depends on whatever the hell you're talking about. It's also quite common on this newsgroup, I've found, that people just wave their hands over a difficult problem and declare it solved, very simply. Often they don't quite understand that easy options they have at their disposal aren't universal ones - for instance, you not seeming to comprehend that not all players of the game are terribly computer literate (just for starters). And sometimes people are in complete fantasyland with their proposed solutions because they don't personally have to do the actual work. Fred

Fred Scott wrote: > To put it in the terms White Wolf likes to use: Are the vampires > in this magazine "promo-only" vampires or are they basically > 3rd Edition preview vampires (which will also be included in > 3rd Edition starter packs or boosters)? The latter.

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:1153748421.9...@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Oops! I need to read all the new posts before grousing about things. Thank you. Fred