Questions on Votes, Bribes and Carlotta

During the Frankfurt tournament (which had a wonderful turn out of 35 people) several questions were raised to me that I really do not have an answer for. Great tournament Frank and Marcus! Thanks for the invitation. :) The question of Bribe gain verses Delaying Tactics. On the text of the Bribe card a sentence states the following, "Gain 1 pool." So when the acting player plays the card during a vote, he/she automatically gains 1 pool immediately. This is whether or not the vote is blocked or not (at least that has been my understanding). If this is correct, the same would apply for Delaying Tactics. Correct? A question came up on the ability of splitting votes during a referendum. After reading errata, the rules, and Bribes the question is still somewhat hazy in my mind as to what is the correct answer on splitting votes. If you have Justicar, a Prince and a Primogen out, would you be able to use the Primogen's vote to gain 1 pool for voting for the referendum while having the Justicar and Prince vote against it and cause it to fail? Or are the minions considered to be from the same group and thus must vote in the same direction, if all the votes are used. While the use of Vote cards would be considered a different source? This one has me muddled. During the tournament, one of the players correctly made the announcement of each card taken from the ash-heap when he used Carlotta's special ability. Does the use of Whispers of the Dead also have this same errata as I did not see it listed. If not, why not, when Carlotta has the errata? Last question that came up was on what I have heard termed, "Slop Play". Where players forget to perform an action (gain blood from the edge/pull blood from a blood doll/play a master card after a minion has performed an action). While individual meta-gaming groups seems to have their own rules on this. I want to gain confirmation that during sanctioned tournaments it is not "legal" to perform such retro-active gains or plays. Correct? And while we are all human, I have always viewed the lost opportunity as part of the standard game play and any mistakes should be learning experiences so you don't repeat the mistake(s) again. (This just happens to be the way we play in Ramstein.) But in the areas of certain cards that cause the consistant loss of pool that could affect the game (contested cards/Temptation of the Greater Power debt repayment/Army of Rats/etc...), what is the ruling on this and who is ultimately responsible for making sure such losses are applied each turn? Thanks Michael Eichler Prince of Ramstein -- Worry comes from the belief you are powerless. (So get in there and kick some butt!) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Ramsteiner wrote: > The question of Bribe gain verses Delaying Tactics. On the text of the > Bribe card a sentence states the following, "Gain 1 pool." So when the > acting player plays the card during a vote, he/she automatically gains > 1 pool immediately. This is whether or not the vote is blocked or not > (at least that has been my understanding). If this is correct, the > same would apply for Delaying Tactics. Correct? Neither Bribes nor Delaying tactics can be played before the blocks are resolved. Both are playable only during the referendum portion of the political action. [6.3.2] The Methuselah whose (acting) vampire plays bribes gains a pool as soon as the card is played, yes. Delaying Tactics cancels the political action (and is only playable during the referendum). It also takes effect as soon as it is played. It wil not undo the effects of a previously-played Bribes, however. > A question came up on the ability of splitting votes during a > referendum. After reading errata, the rules, and Bribes the question > is still somewhat hazy in my mind as to what is the correct answer on > splitting votes. > If you have Justicar, a Prince and a Primogen out, would you be able to > use the Primogen's vote to gain 1 pool for voting for the referendum > while having the Justicar and Prince vote against it and cause it to > fail? Or are the minions considered to be from the same group and thus > must vote in the same direction, if all the votes are used. While the > use of Vote cards would be considered a different source? This one has > me muddled. Bribes indicates that youmust cast at least one vote in favor *and* cast no votes against in order to gain a pool (acting Meth. exempt, of course). So while you are free to cast the Primogen's one vote in favor and cast the other five votes against, doing so will prevent you from gaining a pool from the Bribes when the votes are tallied. > During the tournament, one of the players correctly made the > announcement of each card taken from the ash-heap when he used > Carlotta's special ability. Does the use of Whispers of the Dead also > have this same errata as I did not see it listed. If not, why not, > when Carlotta has the errata? It is not errata. All actions (Carlotta's special and Whispers of the Dead included) are completely defined when announced - that's what "announcing the action" means. The terms of political actions excluded, of course. > Last question that came up was on what I have heard termed, "Slop > Play". Where players forget to perform an action (gain blood from the > edge/pull blood from a blood doll/play a master card after a minion has > performed an action). > While individual meta-gaming groups seems to have their own rules on > this. I want to gain confirmation that during sanctioned tournaments > it is not "legal" to perform such retro-active gains or plays. > Correct? Assuming the forgotten activity was optional, Correct. [V:EKN 2.3] If it was mandatory, see the penalty guidelines, 114. Procedural Error - Misrepresentation. > And while we are all human, I have always viewed the lost opportunity > as part of the standard game play and any mistakes should be learning > experiences so you don't repeat the mistake(s) again. (This just > happens to be the way we play in Ramstein.) > But in the areas of certain cards that cause the consistant loss of > pool that could affect the game (contested cards/Temptation of the > Greater Power debt repayment/Army of Rats/etc...), what is the ruling > on this and who is ultimately responsible for making sure such losses > are applied each turn? Handling contested cards (either by paying a pool to contest or by yielding) is mandatory during your untap phase [4.1] Debt Repayment to Temptation of Greater Power is mandatory during the end of each turn, by card text. Loss of a pool to Army of Rats is mandatory. etc. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> The Methuselah whose (acting) vampire plays bribes gains a pool as soon > as the card is played, yes. Why? (read below) > > Bribes indicates that youmust cast at least one vote in favor *and* cast > no votes against in order to gain a pool (acting Meth. exempt, of course). If one of your vampires (during your turn) is targeted by a superior Kindred Coercion, what will happen then? As far as i know, there is no such things on the card that says "while you play the card get one blood right away!". i.e.: Volker(prince) calls Banishment. Nobody blocks him. He puts a Bribe on the vote and then he casts his 2 votes "FOR". Suddenly, Democritus plays a Kindred Coercion (SUP), changing Volker's votes "AGAINST". a) Will the acting methuselah still gain his blood? b) If the methuselah that controls Democritus puts his (3) votes "FOR", will he gets his blood too? GP41

In article <39E3D5BB...@videotron.ca>, GP...@videotron.ca wrote: > > The Methuselah whose (acting) vampire plays bribes gains a pool > > as soon as the card is played, yes. > > Why? (read below) Try CARD TEXT. VTES card text to be precise. Second sentence. "Gain 1 pool." You don't even have to have any votes to gain pool by playing Bribes. As soon as you play Bribes, you "Gain 1 pool." You can call the vote to burn the Elysium with no votes on the table, and no vote cards to burn in your hand, play the Bribes once you are not blocked, and immediately gain 1 pool. Nothing else matters for the person who is acting. Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra [ quoted text not captured ]

GP41 wrote: > > > The Methuselah whose (acting) vampire plays bribes gains a pool as soon > > as the card is played, yes. > > Why? (read below) Card text says "Gain 1 pool." There are no conditions placed on this. > > Bribes indicates that youmust cast at least one vote in favor *and* cast > > no votes against in order to gain a pool (acting Meth. exempt, of course). > > If one of your vampires (during your turn) is targeted by a superior > Kindred Coercion, what will happen then? As far as i know, there is no > such things on the card that says "while you play the card get one blood > right away!". It does: "Gain 1 pool." Like most cards, the effect is applied immediately. In the case of Bribes, the card's effect also provides a (delayed) benefit to other Methuselah, potentially: (emphasis mine) "Any *other* Methuselah who votes in your favor and does not vote against you gains 1 pool when the results of the <referendum> are tallied." > i.e.: Volker(prince) calls Banishment. Nobody blocks him. He puts a > Bribe on the vote and then he casts his 2 votes "FOR". Suddenly, > Democritus plays a Kindred Coercion (SUP), changing Volker's votes > "AGAINST". 1) Volker attempts the Banishment Action 2) Volker is successful (unblocked) 3) Volker's controller names the vampire to be Banished 4) Volker plays Bribes - his controller gets 1 pool immediately 5) Volker casts two votes "yea". (His controller also like casts 1 vote "yea") 6) Democritus plays Kindred Coercion - Volker's 2 votes are now "nay". > a) Will the acting methuselah still gain his blood? She already has gained a pool, and nothing on Bribes' card text or any other card or rule provides a way to undo that effect. > b) If the methuselah that controls Democritus puts his (3) votes "FOR", > will he gets his blood too? Yes, unless his votes are cancelled/reversed or the referendum is cancelled before the votes are tallied. [ quoted text not captured ]

Grrr... Sorry. I should have verified with the sabbat card first. I hate it when that happens. My mistake. GP41