rehabilitating weak political actions

There are a whole lot of vote cards out there that are kind of cool but not quite playable because their payout for a successful action and successful referendum is insufficient (especially when compared to bar-setters like KRC). Is there a way to dewallpaper them? What about something like this? Shirkol Follower of Set, capacity 6 [ani obf pre SER] Independent. Shirkol may take an action become Camarilla and gain the title Primogen. Shirkol may take an action to become Sabbat and gain the title Bishop. Shirkol Follower of Set, capacity 6 [ani obf PRE SER] Advanced, Independent. [merge] Shirkol does not tap to attempt a political action if the terms of the referendum do not require any Methuselah to burn pool.

[ quoted text not captured ] Well he should probably say he untaps if no Methuselah loses a pool during the referendum. If terms aren't declared until the action is successful, not sure he'd work as is. That being said, does that change anything? People will use him to call Reinforcements/Disputed Territory, and then bleed. Still won't make me ever consider playing one of those bad vote cards. The votes themselves need to change, or some convoluted system to allow multiple political actions each turn if they are one of the bad cards. Both not great ideas. Instead, getting new votes that make me want to call them instead of a KRC is a preferred method.

> > Shirkol > > Follower of Set, capacity 6 > > [ani obf PRE SER] > > Advanced, Independent. > > [merge] Shirkol does not tap to attempt a political action if the > > terms of the referendum do not require any Methuselah to burn pool. I would play this one in a FSR/temptation-deck! The underpowered cards still has uses, for example in non-constructed events and in storyline tournaments. Rise of the Imperator was a fine example of such design, IMO, and I hope to see more of that in the future.

On Jan 8, 9:46 am, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > Shirkol > Follower of Set, capacity 6 > [ani obf PRE SER] > Advanced, Independent. > [merge] Shirkol does not tap to attempt a political action if the > terms of the referendum do not require any Methuselah to burn pool. Devil's advocate here: the terms of the referendum are not set when you take the action, and there are some votes that do not _require_ pool to be burned yet could do so as a result (Can't Take It With You, Perpetual Care and Revolutionary Council, for example.) So Skirkol would be unable to determine if they should tap or not whenever an action to call RevCo is taken - the terms aren't determined yet, and could require a methuselah to burn pool, yet could also not require it. Perhaps rather than trying to enact a fix via 'all votes that are not these very few ones should get benefits', you could identify the votes that you think are the worst and find ways to specifically enhance those cards? -John Flournoy

Malone <kffo...@indiana.edu> wrote: >Shirkol >Follower of Set, capacity 6 >[ani obf pre SER] >Independent. Shirkol may take an action become Camarilla and gain the >title Primogen. Shirkol may take an action to become Sabbat and gain >the title Bishop. Separate to your idea of rehabilitating weak political actions, I really like this as a special, but quite like the idea of having it on the Advanced and Basic vampires separately. So Shirkol-Base can do one, Shirkol-Advanced can do the other, and -Merged can do both. Obviously, you can then add more special text to one version or the other, if you want to make it a little better - something small like conditional <something> when a sect is around. Obviously, it may not be appropriate for *this* vampire given it appears to be from canon, but... >Shirkol >Follower of Set, capacity 6 >[ani obf PRE SER] >Advanced, Independent. >[merge] Shirkol does not tap to attempt a political action if the >terms of the referendum do not require any Methuselah to burn pool. One problem here is that there are a few very strong political actions that don't require anyone to burn pool - Consanguineous Boon is the most obvious, and Setites + Waters of Duat aren't bad anyway. - Banishment is another. Separately, it would also be useful to work out in advance (and perhaps clarify the wording) as to whether several political actions count, or whether you want them to count - Kindred Segragation and Jericho Founding (optional burning), First Tradition, -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

[ quoted text not captured ] Would prefer to strengthen weak titles by giving them votes and other cards that don't suck. best - chris

On Jan 8, 9:46 am, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > There are a whole lot of vote cards out there that are kind of cool > but not quite playable because their payout for a successful action > and successful referendum is insufficient (especially when compared to > bar-setters like KRC). Is there a way to dewallpaper them? controlling Lutz von Hohenzollern works.

Malone <kffo...@indiana.edu> wrote: >There are a whole lot of vote cards out there that are kind of cool >but not quite playable because their payout for a successful action >and successful referendum is insufficient (especially when compared to >bar-setters like KRC). Is there a way to dewallpaper them? [...] >[merge] Shirkol does not tap to attempt a political action if the >terms of the referendum do not require any Methuselah to burn pool. So, I spent a bit of time thinking about this. Here's a random idea that's a bit more controlled. Braggart Master: trifle. Archetype. Put this card on a vampire you control and search your library, hand and/or ash heap for up to X cards from the following list: Sabbat Threat, Peace of Khetamon, Final Nights, Praxis Solomon, Camarilla Exemplary, Sabbat Priest. Put them on this card. Once per turn, this vampire can call a referendum from one of these cards without tapping as if played from your hand (and that card remains on Braggart). A vampire may have only one archetype. Where X is 2 or 3, perhaps. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Jan 8, 10:46 am, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > There are a whole lot of vote cards out there that are kind of cool > but not quite playable because their payout for a successful action > and successful referendum is insufficient (especially when compared to > bar-setters like KRC). Is there a way to dewallpaper them? Well, as noted, due to the existence of KRC as a basic starting point, you really need to be getting about the same effect as making your prey lose 3 pool to make calling a vote worth it. There are a lot of votes that don't do that, so they get ignored most of the time. Ignoring, like, the various Agitation/Persecution votes, Con Boon (and the ones like it--Exclusion Principal, Diveristy), Parity Shift, and titles (none of which need upgrading, and, like, a lot of the ideas for generic upgrades presented in this thread do things like make Con Boon and title votes better, which they don't need), most of the vote cards in the game are either good enough when you want to use them (Banishment, Anathema, Auto Da Fe, Archon, etc.) or lame enough that a non specific upgrade isn't going to make them worth using (if, say, you had a card in play that let you not tap, say to play, Camarilla Exemplary, Sabbat Threat, or Regaining the Upper Hand, would you play them?) -Peter

I was thinking of actual vampires which boost each of the specific cards we'd like to enhance...forgive my bad templating, but for example: "If ______ calls an political action to play Camarilla Exemplary, if the referendum passes, draw up to X cards, where X is the amount of votes the referendum passed by. Discard down to your maximum hand size afterwards, and untap him at end of turn." I thought that turning each of these cards into a way to cycle your hand and prevent hand jam, might make them worth it...

> if, say, > you had a card in play that let you not tap, say to play, Camarilla > Exemplary, Sabbat Threat, or Regaining the Upper Hand, would you play > them? Yes. Those were three cards that I was specifically thinking about when poking around with the idea of a vampire like that (copied below for reference). Not tap for RtUH seems ok in this context, with Enticement to follow, possibly adding Voter Cap, Bribes, Perfectionist, etc. Maybe it'd turn out otherwise but, yeah, play Cam Exemp without tapping does sound good to me. With Toreador, or with presence Nossies... Sure, that vamp couldn't call a second political action, but with [obf] can Veil somebody then with [SER] can find a reasonable other second action, Temptation if nothing else. Heck, with [ani] it could be Army of Rats. Or with some other discipline spread could stay untapped to bounce or whatever. ***** [Shirkol Follower of Set, capacity 6 [ani obf pre SER] Independent. Shirkol may take an action become Camarilla and gain the title Primogen. Shirkol may take an action to become Sabbat and gain the title Bishop. Shirkol Follower of Set, capacity 6 [ani obf PRE SER] Advanced, Independent. [merge] Shirkol does not tap to attempt a political action if the terms of the referendum do not require any Methuselah to burn pool. *****

On Jan 8, 10:46 am, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > There are a whole lot of vote cards out there that are kind of cool > but not quite playable because their payout for a successful action > and successful referendum is insufficient (especially when compared to > bar-setters like KRC). Is there a way to dewallpaper them? Well I think your base idea is a good one, but I think master cards and action modifiers is the way to go to fix this problem: Seat of Power Type: Master Cost: 2 pool Unique master. Put this card on a vampire with capacity above 5 that you control, when ever a vote passes this vampire gains a blood from the blood bank, if no Methuselah lost or gained any pool during that action, then you gain a pool. If this vampire send a titled vampire to torpor, he or she may burn this card to gain that title. Burn this card if this vampire goes to torpor. Autocracy Type: Action Modifier Cost: 1 blood Only usable on after a successful referendum. Only usable if no Methuselah gained or lost any pool this action. Only playable by a vampire with a capacity above 6. Untap this vampire, this vampire may perform another Political Action this turn, that referendum called this turn passes automatically. Only one Autocracy may be played a game. Maybe to much their, maybe to powerful but some thing like this could help.

On Jan 9, 9:16 pm, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > Yes. Those were three cards that I was specifically thinking about > when poking around with the idea of a vampire like that (copied below > for reference). Not tap for RtUH seems ok in this context, with > Enticement to follow, possibly adding Voter Cap, Bribes, > Perfectionist, etc. Yeah, see, they are still incredibly weak and corner case, even with a vampire like that. But in instances where they are worth playing (of which there are few), they are still worth playing--some sort of RtUH/ Sabbat Threat/Enticement/Form of Corruption deck makes both Sabbat Threat and RtUH both worth playing. And in that instance, they don't really need upgrading. But if you aren't using Enticement and Form of Corruption, upgrading them isn't going to make them worth playing in other decks. I mean, yeah, I can certainly see the attraction to making, like, a Settite with OBF/SER or something who can play RtUH without tapping. But that isn't really rehabilitating weak political actions so much as making one weird angle slightly more viable. But ok. -Peter

Malone <kffo...@indiana.edu> wrote: >Maybe it'd turn out otherwise but, yeah, play Cam Exemp without >tapping does sound good to me. With Toreador, or with presence >Nossies... Sure, that vamp couldn't call a second political action, Actually, that might be the way to rehabilitate some of them. Bobby does not tap to play Camarilla Exemplary. If a Camarilla Exemplary referendum called by Bobby is successful, this action does not prevent him from attempting another political action this turn (but not another Camarilla Exemplary). Or put something similar on a library card (e.g. like the archetype I suggested, a global Master card allowing multiple vampires to do it, or something.) That wording could do with some tidying up, but you get the idea. [ quoted text not captured ]

I really like your second Shirkol : if votes other than the traditional are to be promoted it's by means other than the normal. In my playgroup, when someone plays such a vote, everyone says : "that's really bad, he's installing, he'll be unstoppable." So everyone votes against. There could be an action modifier like The Quiet War Action Modifier Cost : 1[2?]blood. Only usable on a referendum that doesn't directly burn pool from any Methuselah. Gain 3 votes. If this referendum isn't successful, the Methuselah who has cast the most votes against this referendum looses 1 pool (if there is a tie, all loose the pool). Or a vampire like this : Auguste Régnier Capacity 5 Clan Toreador PRE aus ser Camarilla Primogen : if a referendum called Honor the Elders is successful, put 1 blood from the blood bank on each vampire with capacity above 8 in your uncontrolled region and 1 blood on each of your ready vampires with capacity above 8.

On Jan 10, 2:47 pm, Pullen <mattp3...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Jan 8, 10:46 am, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > > > There are a whole lot of vote cards out there that are kind of cool > > but not quite playable because their payout for a successful action > > and successful referendum is insufficient (especially when compared to > > bar-setters like KRC). Is there a way to dewallpaper them? > > Well I think your base idea is a good one, but I think master cards > and action modifiers is the way to go to fix this problem: Okay, the issue I see is doing it without empowering the kind of broken Presence Cheese you see from classic Tor/Ven power-vote too far. Aims: to limit the ability for Voter Cap to make a vote deck go beserk, to empower a vote deck to call multiple votes in limited ways. Political Powerhouse Master 1 pool Unique Archetype. Only playable on a titled vampire without a city-based title. This vampire may play a second political action each turn and increase the cost of that action by 2 blood. They cannot use Voter Captivation more than once per turn. Extended Sitting Action Modifier 3 blood. Only playable during a political action before the start of the referendum. Replace this card after this action is resolved. Place a political action from your hand face up on this card on the table. If the current political action passes, begin a referendum on the political action placed on this card. The acting vampire cannot play action modifiers between the first referendum and the referendum provided by this card.

> The Quiet War > Action Modifier > Cost : 1[2?]blood. > Only usable on a referendum that doesn't directly burn pool from any > Methuselah. > Gain 3 votes. If this referendum isn't successful, the Methuselah who > has cast the most votes against this referendum looses 1 pool (if > there is a tie, all loose the pool). > The problem is, which of the bad votes will be played if this card exists? All the ones currently ignored will still be, since they are still not worth the action taken to call them.

Obtenebration wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] You're kidding, right? Alastor Anathema Archon Banishment [...] Need I continue? ;) Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html Please attend my qualifier! http://members.cox.net/vtesinlv/index.htm

On Jan 8, 7:46 am, Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote: > There are a whole lot of vote cards out there that are kind of cool > but not quite playable because their payout for a successful action > and successful referendum is insufficient (especially when compared to > bar-setters like KRC). Is there a way to dewallpaper them? The current topic is about vote cards that fail the test of, "Are they better than just calling a KRC?". > Alastor > Anathema > Archon > Banishment > [...] > > Need I continue? ;) > > Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas(contested) Those all pass the test, so your point is moot. Actually your point is invalid, but I've always wanted to use moot. DavidL., Archbishop of Las Vegas

On Jan 11, 12:57 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > Obtenebration wrote: > > Mathieu Rivero wrote: > >> The Quiet War > >> Action Modifier > >> Cost : 1[2?]blood. > >> Only usable on a referendum that doesn't directly burn pool > >> from any Methuselah. > >> Gain 3 votes. If this referendum isn't successful, the Methuselah > >> who has cast the most votes against this referendum looses 1 pool > >> (if there is a tie, all loose the pool). > > > The problem is, which of the bad votes will be played if this card > > exists? All the ones currently ignored will still be, since they are > > still not worth the action taken to call them. > > You're kidding, right? > > Alastor > Anathema > Archon > Banishment > [...] > > Need I continue? ;) Banishment is a bad vote card now?

> Auguste R�gnier > Capacity 5 > Clan Toreador > PRE aus ser > Camarilla Primogen : if a referendum called Honor the Elders is > successful, put 1 blood from the blood bank on each vampire with > capacity above 8 in your uncontrolled region and 1 blood on each of > your ready vampires with capacity above 8. Isn't that exactly what Honor the Elder does in the first place?

On Jan 11, 6:57 am, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > Obtenebration wrote: > > Mathieu Rivero wrote: > >> The Quiet War > >> Action Modifier > >> Cost : 1[2?]blood. > >> Only usable on a referendum that doesn't directly burn pool > >> from any Methuselah. > >> Gain 3 votes. If this referendum isn't successful, the Methuselah > >> who has cast the most votes against this referendum looses 1 pool > >> (if there is a tie, all loose the pool). > > You're kidding, right? > > Alastor > Anathema > Archon > Banishment > [...] > Yeah, see, these are all good votes that don't burn pool from someone (which I think is Kevin's point). Like Con Boon. A lot of the ideas for "let's make bad votes better!" do so by making already good votes better too--you can't, for example, try and limit the power of an upgrade by limiting it to votes that "don't burn pool"--Con Boon, Alastor, Anathema, Banishment, Free States Rant, titles, and Political Stanglehold all are very good and don't burn pool. And don't need upgrading. The idea of making cards that specifically name other votes (like the kooky Archetype James came up with, or vampires that get specific bonuses for specific votes) certainly has legs, except that if you are making a new card that specifically names old cards, you need to make sure that new players who get these new cards have access to the older cards that are being named. And as the older cards that are being named tend to, ya know, suck, they haven't been reprinted for a while. And likely will stay that way. Do we really need, like, Regaining the Upper Hand reprinted, 'cause there is a new vampire who makes playing Regaining the Upper Hand slightly less awful? Is this a good path to go down? -Peter

On Jan 11, 7:49 am, Obtenebration <obtenebrat...@obtenebration.org> wrote: > > Alastor > > Anathema > > Archon > > Banishment > > [...] > > > Need I continue? ;) > > > Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas(contested) > > Those all pass the test, so your point is moot. Actually your point > is invalid, but I've always wanted to use moot. I'm pretty sure that Kevin meant to (or should have :-) responded to the original post by Mathieu, specifically pointing out that the card he presented (i.e. gain 3 votes on a PA that doesn't burn pool) is a flawed idea. Due to the cards that Kevin pointed out. Not that the cards Kevin pointed out were bad. Am I the only one who is capable of figuring these things out? -Peter

A lot of the ideas > for "let's make bad votes better!" do so by making already good votes > better too--you can't, for example, try and limit the power of an > upgrade by limiting it to votes that "don't burn pool"--Con Boon, > Alastor, Anathema, Banishment, Free States Rant, titles, and Political > Stanglehold all are very good and don't burn pool. And don't need > upgrading. A limited dose of making already-good votes better isn't necessarily a bad thing. Not tapping to call a vote is just a little multi-act boost, and anybody with fortitude could already call a vote and then untap. The 'don't burn pool' clause could be upgraded to 'don't burn or gain pool and no minion leaves the ready region' if somebody not tapping to play Banishment is too much to bear. > The idea of making cards that specifically name other votes (like the > kooky Archetype James came up with, or vampires that get specific > bonuses for specific votes) certainly has legs, except that if you are > making a new card that specifically names old cards, you need to make > sure that new players who get these new cards have access to the older > cards that are being named. And as the older cards that are being > named tend to, ya know, suck, they haven't been reprinted for a while. > And likely will stay that way. Do we really need, like, Regaining the > Upper Hand reprinted, 'cause there is a new vampire who makes playing > Regaining the Upper Hand slightly less awful? Is this a good path to > go down? I don't think a vamp whose special is "doesn't tap to play Camarilla Exemplary" would really require a reprint of Camarilla Exemplary. Presumably the underlying vampire, with a 0-point special like that, would be good enough to use without the special. And there are already giant stacks of Camarilla Exemplary floating around the world looking for a loving home.

[ quoted text not captured ] Sure, except when I get a not so random email from a specific person mentioning he "got" me on the NG.

On Jan 11, 6:57 am, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > Obtenebration wrote: > > Mathieu Rivero wrote: > >> The Quiet War > >> Action Modifier > >> Cost : 1[2?]blood. > >> Only usable on a referendum that doesn't directly burn pool > >> from any Methuselah. > >> Gain 3 votes. If this referendum isn't successful, the Methuselah > >> who has cast the most votes against this referendum looses 1 pool > >> (if there is a tie, all loose the pool). > > > The problem is, which of the bad votes will be played if this card > > exists? All the ones currently ignored will still be, since they are > > still not worth the action taken to call them. > > You're kidding, right? > > Alastor > Anathema > Archon > Banishment > [...] > > Need I continue? ;) These are "currently ignored"?

Izaak said : " Isn't that exactly what Honor the Elder does in the first place? " Yes and no. It does the same thing fo all methuselahs. This vampire allows you to double the effect. @ Kevin M. Yes there are strong votes which don't burn pool. Except that a lot of votes that were printed are shit. Like Honor the Elders, Regain the Upper hand, and so on. On the other hand, I think some votes are really too powerful, like Parity shift. Sabbat vampire don't have such votes. They have Templar (that's suuuuuuch a bad card) and on the other hand, they have Regent, allowing the 10 or 11 capacity vampires to play KRC. That's ridiculous. Independents have Free State Rants and Reckless agitation...

On Jan 12, 9:44 am, Mathieu Rivero <riveromath...@googlemail.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Honor the Elders isn't as crap as it seems, but it needs a Fat-tastic Crypt. Sure you're unlikely to see it time and time again in a Tier 1 Bleed Fest or Vote Fest, but then you rarely see anything other than KRC/Parity Shift + Awe + VC (and maybe a Rant) in that environment.

[ quoted text not captured ] No, but the newsgroup nowadays is so much about the GOTCHA! game and non-topical issues that people aren't even trying to figure it out. But I'm sure I'll get lots of emails and responses about how it's really me that is the problem and it's really me that has the issue and how it's really me that is random, unintelligible, and flaming. Oh, I forgot aggressive and abrasive. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Mathieu Rivero" <rivero...@googlemail.com> schreef in bericht news:8be7b406-0786-406f...@r24g2000yqd.googlegroups.com... > Izaak said : " Isn't that exactly what Honor the Elder does in the > first place? " > Yes and no. It does the same thing fo all methuselahs. This vampire > allows you to double the effect. Oh I see. That would be a pretty stupid idea, as Honor the Elders isn't really that bad. It's a sound replacement for Con Boons in more fatty orientated crypts. I have a highcap Setite vote deck with Mesu's, Nakthorheb and Memory's Fading Glimpse (yes, I kid you not!). HtE is an excellent bloat card in that context. I mean, sure, it requires a specialized deck to make it work and you might end up helping someone else more than yourself. Then again, half the cards in this game require a deck built around them to work and DOM/OBF bleeding into a guy with 10 deflections also helps him more than you (and gets him VP in the process). Not saying that your idea is 'op' or anything, but you'd STILL end up building a deck around a gimmick to make HtE work. Something you can already perfectly do at the moment.