* Are you allowed to play superior rolling at the start of a combat to
cycle into precombat cards?
* How it precombat done? taking turns, acting vampire first or free
floating?
* When does the sniperrifle effect trigger? can it be done before a
DotB?
//Seto
* Are you allowed to play superior rolling at the start of a combat to
cycle into precombat cards?
Nope... Only time you can play it would be to prevent preventable
damage during strikes resolution phase.
* How it precombat done? taking turns, acting vampire first or free
floating?
Acting vampire gets the chance to play precombat first.
Then opposing vampire can play precombat.
After that, the acting vampire could responsed if the opposing vampire
plays any Precombat.
It'll go back and forth till one minion passes after that.
* When does the sniperrifle effect trigger? can it be done before a
DotB?
It's a prerange effect. DotB is a precombat, and would be played first.
"kulaid871" <Kula...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135373143....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> * When does the sniperrifle effect trigger? can it be done before a
> DotB?
>
> It's a prerange effect. DotB is a precombat, and would be played first.
>
Not necessarily. The Sniper Rifle's "set range" ability is a pre-range
effect, as is Drawing Out the Beast. (There's no such thing as "precombat,"
unless you want to informally use the term for cards that are played on a
successful block, such as Obedience, Venenation, Change of Target, etc.)
Anyway, the acting minion has an opportunity to play pre-range effects,
which would include DOtB. If DOtB were played, the blocking minion could not
use his Sniper Rifle to set range to long. (Ignoring the possibility of DI
on the DOtB, Abombwe reflex effects, Sire's Index Finger, etc.) If DOtB were
not used by the acting minion first, the blocker could use his Rifle and set
range.
It's relatively corner-case, but the acting minion could conceivably play
DOtB AFTER range was set to long. In that case, I think range would still be
long, but the Rifle would have no effect. (E.g., play Flesh of Marble after
range was set to long, replace FoM with DOtB, play DOtb.)
- Pat
> * How it precombat done? taking turns, acting vampire first or free
> floating?
>
> Acting vampire gets the chance to play precombat first.
> Then opposing vampire can play precombat.
> After that, the acting vampire could responsed if the opposing vampire
> plays any Precombat.
> It'll go back and forth till one minion passes after that.
>
Just one minor clarification here, and that's that the blocking minion
only gets to apply 1 effect each pass. The moment anyone plays an effect
(even the acting minion), it becomes the acting minion's turn.
--
- Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, Pat wrote:
> It's relatively corner-case, but the acting minion could conceivably play
> DOtB AFTER range was set to long. In that case, I think range would still be
> long, but the Rifle would have no effect. (E.g., play Flesh of Marble after
> range was set to long, replace FoM with DOtB, play DOtb.)
There's plenty good reason to hold onto the DotB until the reacting minion
sets range to long.
Acting minion: no pre-range.
Reacting minion: okay, since I blocked you, I'll use the Sniper Rifle to
set range to long.
AM: In that case, I play Drawing Out the Beast. No further pre-range.
RM: No further pre-range.
AM: Range is set to long. My strike is Thrown Sewer Lid.
RM: Ouch. I guess my strike fizzles.
AM: Yeah, and you take a damage during the press step. I'll press with
the lid and Taste your 4.
RM: I paid 2 pool for this?
Matt Morgan
"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@io.com> wrote in message
news:2005122323...@eris.io.com...
> On Fri, 23 Dec 2005, Pat wrote:
>>> It's relatively corner-case, but the acting minion could conceivably play
>> DOtB AFTER range was set to long. In that case, I think range would still
>> be
>> long, but the Rifle would have no effect. (E.g., play Flesh of Marble
>> after
>> range was set to long, replace FoM with DOtB, play DOtb.)>
> There's plenty good reason to hold onto the DotB until the reacting minion
> sets range to long.
>
But your example assumes you're playing DOtB in a Sewer Lid deck...
inconceivable!
DOtB goes in an IG/short-range potence strike deck, and it was clearly
established in an earlier thread that one would never ever ever in a
bazillion years use Sewer Lids in a close-range potence deck. ;)
- Pat
> But your example assumes you're playing DOtB in a Sewer Lid deck...
> inconceivable!
I assume you're joking, but I'll argue against this point as though
you're not. DotB is great in long range strike decks. You stop your
opponent from striking back with guns (which are the most common ranged
strike), you inflict an extra damage in the press step (at superior),
you disallow presses to end (did anyone say Carrion Crows?), and you
don't have to worry much about the cards chief disadvantage, the +1
strength you give your opponent. Carrion Crows+ Aid From Bats +
Drawing out the Beast is a very good combat module in itself, and it's
all prestrike so you don't have to worry about jamming vs. S:CE. Add
in some Swallowed by the Night, Behind You, Thrown Sewer Lid, and
Canine Horde and the Nosferatu actually start to look good. Especially
Cailean.
> DOtB goes in an IG/short-range potence strike deck, and it was clearly
> established in an earlier thread that one would never ever ever in a
> bazillion years use Sewer Lids in a close-range potence deck. ;)
Right...*clearly* established....
--Jesse, the instigator of that other thread...
On 24 Dec 2005 08:04:06 -0800, CthuluKitty <vtana...@riseup.net> wrote:
> I assume you're joking, but I'll argue against this point as though
> you're not. DotB is great in long range strike decks. You stop your
> opponent from striking back with guns (which are the most common ranged
> strike), you inflict an extra damage in the press step (at superior),
> you disallow presses to end (did anyone say Carrion Crows?), and you
> don't have to worry much about the cards chief disadvantage, the +1
> strength you give your opponent. Carrion Crows+ Aid From Bats +
> Drawing out the Beast is a very good combat module in itself, and it's
> all prestrike so you don't have to worry about jamming vs. S:CE. Add
> in some Swallowed by the Night, Behind You, Thrown Sewer Lid, and
> Canine Horde and the Nosferatu actually start to look good. Especially
> Cailean.
Good points. One note though: a ranged deck (like a gun deck) that would
prefer to set the range to long to work through the use of manoeuvres
will most likely outmanoeuvre you and come back to close if they choose
to do so. In the most likely scenario you exchanged 2-3 shots for 2 with
2-3 punches for 2.
You're using 3 cards, they match you with a manoeuvre card and play an
additional strike card, net outcome is:
You: 3 (specific) cards, do 4 damage
Them: 2 cards (can be 2× Pursuit, for example), do 4 damage
Another note would be on the point you mentioned about prerange being good
because it doesn't get stuck in you hand vs. S:CE - I'm sure at least some
people feel that blowing a trifecta in the face of each S:CE card for a
deck that wishes to do combat is kind of inferior to finding a way around
S:CE. Otherwise, you are most likely matched 1 card to 3 card on the
combat
arena *and* can't do your thing - which I feel is a bit expensive
resource-wise.
--
Bye,
Daneel
"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message
news:ops2bznp...@news.chello.hu...
> On 24 Dec 2005 08:04:06 -0800, CthuluKitty <vtana...@riseup.net> wrote:
>>> I assume you're joking, but I'll argue against this point as though
>> you're not. DotB is great in long range strike decks. You stop your
>> opponent from striking back with guns (which are the most common ranged
>> strike), you inflict an extra damage in the press step (at superior),
>> you disallow presses to end (did anyone say Carrion Crows?), and you
>> don't have to worry much about the cards chief disadvantage, the +1
>> strength you give your opponent. Carrion Crows+ Aid From Bats +
>> Drawing out the Beast is a very good combat module in itself, and it's
>> all prestrike so you don't have to worry about jamming vs. S:CE. Add
>> in some Swallowed by the Night, Behind You, Thrown Sewer Lid, and
>> Canine Horde and the Nosferatu actually start to look good. Especially
>> Cailean.>
> Good points. One note though: a ranged deck (like a gun deck) that would
> prefer to set the range to long to work through the use of manoeuvres
> will most likely outmanoeuvre you and come back to close if they choose
> to do so. In the most likely scenario you exchanged 2-3 shots for 2 with
> 2-3 punches for 2.
>
> You're using 3 cards, they match you with a manoeuvre card and play an
> additional strike card, net outcome is:
>
> You: 3 (specific) cards, do 4 damage> Them: 2 cards (can be 2в Pursuit, for example), do 4 damage>
> Another note would be on the point you mentioned about prerange being good
> because it doesn't get stuck in you hand vs. S:CE - I'm sure at least
> some
> people feel that blowing a trifecta in the face of each S:CE card for a
> deck that wishes to do combat is kind of inferior to finding a way around
> S:CE. Otherwise, you are most likely matched 1 card to 3 card on the
> combat
> arena *and* can't do your thing - which I feel is a bit expensive
> resource-wise.
>
> --
> Bye,
>
> Daneel
Ah, precisely. Thanks for making the precise points that I thought of, but
didn't have the energy to make. :)
Happy Festivus & Merry Chrismuhanakwanzakah to everybody.
- Pat
> Good points. One note though: a ranged deck (like a gun deck) that would
> prefer to set the range to long to work through the use of manoeuvres
> will most likely outmanoeuvre you and come back to close if they choose
> to do so. In the most likely scenario you exchanged 2-3 shots for 2 with
> 2-3 punches for 2.
Yeah, this instance would obviously be a problem, and you might not be
getting much use of the DotB. You could always save it for later, or
play it to cycle. It seems like a lot of people these days are packing
guns without much (or even any) transient combat as a casual combat
defense. DotB and long range works nicely against those people.
The thing that' s great about DotB is that it does so many things at
once. It goes well with Trap/presses because they can't press out. It
goes well with close range combat because they can't go long. It goes
well with long range combat because they can't use weapons. The extra
+1 strength you give your opponent can be a pain, though it's more or
less mitigated by the 1 damage/round the card does at superior.
Celerity is the biggest threat to relying on DotB, because Blur at +1
str. is downright painful.
Of course, Cailean doesn't have to worry about maneuvers back to close.
;)
> You're using 3 cards, they match you with a manoeuvre card and play an
> additional strike card, net outcome is:> Another note would be on the point you mentioned about prerange being good> because it doesn't get stuck in you hand vs. S:CE - I'm sure at least some
> people feel that blowing a trifecta in the face of each S:CE card for a
> deck that wishes to do combat is kind of inferior to finding a way around
> S:CE. Otherwise, you are most likely matched 1 card to 3 card on the
> combat
> arena *and* can't do your thing - which I feel is a bit expensive
> resource-wise.
It's all very situational, and it really depends on what you're
attempting to do with your combat cards. Performing well in combat
doesn't have to be about rushing and torporizing enemy vampires; it's
often good enough just to get out of it alive, and maybe do some damage
to the enemy while you're at it. If I were building a rush deck, I
absolutely would not rely on a package like this to do my work in
combat--at least not without some Immortal Grapple and Torn Signpost
added. The thing about my metagame is that I can expect combat to
happen regularly no matter what I'm trying to do. Sometimes I'll do
some damage, and sometimes I won't. If my primary strategy is
bleeding, or blocking, or whatever else, the main goal of combat is
keeping my minion alive. The ANI combat chain I like is great because
it functions as simultaneous offense and defense, much like Theft of
Vitae or Indomitability based combat.
Thought about this way, combat isn't so much a singular strategy but a
flexible tactical resource. Depending on circumstances, it can work
like stealth, like intercept, or like bleeding (by killing your prey's
minions, and maybe sweetening the deal with Fame). It also gives you a
lot of control over table dynamics, as you can choose whether to play
your combat cards to your left or right, or even across the table in
some extreme cases. Most bleed decks simply don't have this kind of
flexibility, though political decks often do (Kindred Spirits is a
notable exception in that it lets you bleed anyone you want--an ability
that I think is way too often ignored). All of this makes combat a
very reasonable starting point for all manner of toolboxy or
hybrid-strategy decks, such as bruise-bleed, intercept combat, or
empire style craziness. The main difficulty in playing this way is
that you need to learn how to be patient with your cards. You can't
just go ahead and play whatever cards happen to be in your hand
regardless of what's happening. You need to pick your oppurtunities,
and use your cards for the greatest leverage possible. Naturally, it's
much much easier to play stealth bleed, or some other uber-focused
archetype, but that in itself doesn't mean that such strategies are
inherently better.
[ quoted text not captured ]
I don't grok you here. Acting minion can play whatever he likes until
he passes or both pass. Reacting minion can play whatever he likes
until he passes or both pass.
There is no "1 effect each pass" limitation that I know of.
G
[ quoted text not captured ]
from 1.6.1.5:
At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the
next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another and
another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the defending
Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then to the rest
of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting Methuselah. ***Note
that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again
gets the opportunity to play the next effect.***
[Emphasis mine.]
So a round of Combat that is often played like this:
Acting Minion: No Pre-Range
Defending Minion: Cailean sets Range to Close, plays Torn Signpost, No
further Pre-Range
Acting Minion: No further Pre-Range
is actually supposed to go like this:
Acting Minion: No Pre-Range
Defending Minion: Cailean sets Range to Close
Acting Minion: No further Pre-Range
Defending Minion: Torn Signpost
Acting Minion: No further Pre-Range
Defending Minion: No further Pre-Range
Acting Methuselah: Anyone else?
Everyone else: No.
The Defending Minion *cannot* play the Torn Signpost unless he gives the
Acting Methuselah the opportunity to play effects. Likewise, they cannot
enter the Determine Range or subsequent steps until each methuselah has
been given (at least implicit) opportunity to play cards or effects.
[ quoted text not captured ]
talonz wrote:
> I don't grok you here. Acting minion can play whatever he likes until
> he passes or both pass. Reacting minion can play whatever he likes
> until he passes or both pass.
>
> There is no "1 effect each pass" limitation that I know of.
I thing Greg was kind of refering to some sort of a "I do one thing;
you do one thing; I do one thing" system, which is kind of how I
understood the rule as well (although I could have always been
wrong)--i.e. I, the acting minion get to play, say, 1 pre combat card,
then the defending minion gets to play a card, then I get to play a
card, and so on--with a 1 card at a time back and forth. If I play a
card and the opposing minion passes, I can play another card until I
have no more cards to play, giving the opposing minion a chance between
ever card to respond.
In practice, however, the acting minion plays whatever they want, and
the defending minion plays whatever they want, but get to see what the
acting minion is playing first.
-Peter
On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, pd...@lightlink.com wrote:
> I thing Greg was kind of refering to some sort of a "I do one thing;
> you do one thing; I do one thing" system, which is kind of how I
> understood the rule as well (although I could have always been
> wrong)--i.e. I, the acting minion get to play, say, 1 pre combat card,
> then the defending minion gets to play a card, then I get to play a
> card, and so on--with a 1 card at a time back and forth. If I play a
> card and the opposing minion passes, I can play another card until I
> have no more cards to play, giving the opposing minion a chance between
> ever card to respond.
>
The Acting Minion gets to play X cards, then somebody else gets to
play 1 card, repeat.
> In practice, however, the acting minion plays whatever they want, and
> the defending minion plays whatever they want, but get to see what the
> acting minion is playing first.
>
--
- Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, talonz wrote:>> Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote:>>> Just one minor clarification here, and that's that the blocking minion
>>> only gets to apply 1 effect each pass. The moment anyone plays an effect
>>> (even the acting minion), it becomes the acting minion's turn.>>>> I don't grok you here. Acting minion can play whatever he likes until
>> he passes or both pass. Reacting minion can play whatever he likes
>> until he passes or both pass.
>>
>> There is no "1 effect each pass" limitation that I know of.>
> from 1.6.1.5:
>
> At every stage, the acting player always has the opportunity to play the
> next card or effect. So after playing one effect, she may play another
> and another. Once she is finished, the opportunity passes to the
> defending Methuselah (in the cases of directed actions and combat), then
> to the rest of the Methuselahs in clockwise order from the acting
> Methuselah. ***Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the
> acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to play the next effect.***
Correct.
When the blocking minion plays an effect, the acting minion, not the
blocking minion, gets the opportunity to play the next effect. If the
acting minion passes, then the blocking minion may play a second
effect. If he does, then the acting minion again gets the opportunity
to play the next effect.
--
That is my story, be it bitter or be it sweet.
Keep a little and let a little come back to me.
LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/