Wakey, Fast Reaction, and replacmement oddity.

Situation: I have a blocker (B) about to enter combat. I have a tapped vampire (V) with auspex. I have a Wakey and Fast Reaction in my hand. B and the acting minion play out their combat. I play Wakey and Fast Reaction on V, who now enters combat. I do not replace the Wakey until the new combat is over. --- But, if I had played the Wakey at the start of B's combat (still playing it on V, of course), I would have replaced it at the end of the first combat, and had an extra card in hand available during the entire second combat. --- Just something to think about. -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Theater is life http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | Film is art Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | Television is furniture

L. Scott Johnson wrote: > > Situation: > > I have a blocker (B) about to enter combat. > I have a tapped vampire (V) with auspex. > I have a Wakey and Fast Reaction in my hand. > > B and the acting minion play out their combat. > I play Wakey and Fast Reaction on V, who now enters combat. > I do not replace the Wakey until the new combat is over. > > --- > But, if I had played the Wakey at the start of B's combat > (still playing it on V, of course), I would have > replaced it at the end of the first combat, and had an > extra card in hand available during the entire second combat. First, how long does the duration of a Wakey last? I mean, can this vamp do his (her) do for the remainder of the turn? I allways thought it counted until the action on which it was played was either blocked or succesfull. In this case you're scenario wouldn't work out, as the action was allready blocked. In your example, I see you play the card as usefull until combat is over and resolved (how about a FoM, would it still count as well?). Second, somehow I have the feeling that the *combat* in *do not replace until...* means combat for V. However, this again starts a new interesting question: what if you use Wakey to block an action, but you fail to do so? Would this mean you couldn't replace the card until a) One of your vamps has been in combat b) This vamp has been in combat c) Until it is certain the blocking doesn't succeed. We both would choose c), because it is more logical. But by this same logic, you can only replace the Wakey until after V's combat. > > --- > Just something to think about. > --The implications are killing me ;) > L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Theater is life > http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | Film is art > Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | Television is furniture -- |~~| "Sure I've got a brain, it's a multilayer Kohonen net" ~~| |oost Hage (ha...@cs.utwente.nl) \_/ Oh yeah, this is my personal opinion, and mine only

Hage <ha...@cs.utwente.nl> writes: >L. Scott Johnson wrote: >> >> Situation: >> >> I have a blocker (B) about to enter combat. >> I have a tapped vampire (V) with auspex. >> I have a Wakey and Fast Reaction in my hand. >> >> B and the acting minion play out their combat. >> I play Wakey and Fast Reaction on V, who now enters combat. >> I do not replace the Wakey until the new combat is over. >> >> --- >> But, if I had played the Wakey at the start of B's combat >> (still playing it on V, of course), I would have >> replaced it at the end of the first combat, and had an >> extra card in hand available during the entire second combat. >First, how long does the duration of a Wakey last? I mean, can this vamp >do his (her) do for the remainder of the turn? I allways thought it >counted until the action on which it was played was either blocked or >succesfull. In this case you're scenario wouldn't work out, as the action >was allready blocked. In your example, I see you play the card as usefull >until combat is over and resolved (how about a FoM, would it still count >as well?). Wakey lasts for the duration of the action. Fast Reaction is played within that timeframe. >Second, somehow I have the feeling that the *combat* in *do not >replace until...* means combat for V. However, this again starts a new >interesting question: what if you use Wakey to block an action, but you >fail to do so? Would this mean you couldn't replace the card until >a) One of your vamps has been in combat >b) This vamp has been in combat >c) Until it is certain the blocking doesn't succeed. >We both would choose c), because it is more logical. But by this same >logic, you can only replace the Wakey until after V's combat. All "Do Not Replace Until After Combat" cards are replaced at the end of the next combat, or at the end of the action, whichever comes first. Who is engaged in combat is irrelevant. (So none of the above are actually official). -- [ quoted text not captured ]

L. Scott Johnson wrote: > > Hage <ha...@cs.utwente.nl> writes: > >L. Scott Johnson wrote: > >> > >> Situation:< Stuff partially cut due to netload...> > >> But, if I had played the Wakey at the start of B's combat > >> (still playing it on V, of course), I would have > >> replaced it at the end of the first combat, and had an > >> extra card in hand available during the entire second combat. > > >First, how long does the duration of a Wakey last? > Wakey lasts for the duration of the action. Fast Reaction is played > within that timeframe. Ok, I kinda meant this stuff to be rethorical ;) > >Second, somehow I have the feeling that the *combat* in *do not > >replace until...* means combat for V. However, this again starts a new > >interesting question: what if you use Wakey to block an action, but you > >fail to do so? Would this mean you couldn't replace the card until > >a) One of your vamps has been in combat > >b) This vamp has been in combat > >c) Until it is certain the blocking doesn't succeed. > > >We both would choose c), because it is more logical. But by this same > >logic, you can only replace the Wakey until after V's combat. > > All "Do Not Replace Until After Combat" cards are replaced at the > end of the next combat, or at the end of the action, whichever comes > first. Who is engaged in combat is irrelevant. (So none of the above > are actually official). Well, I disagree. You see, I feel that what's meant with the "Do Not Replace Until After Combat" realy means: do not replace until action is resolved (so: if you feel wakey enables you to react with V AFTER combat between vamp A and B is resolved, you also can't replace the card, because this is not the combat wakey is referring to. Ofcourse, if you want to get technicaly, you might be right. I however, find it illogical and wrong). > -- > L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Theater is life > http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | Film is art > Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | Television is furniture -- [ quoted text not captured ]

Hage <ha...@cs.utwente.nl> writes: >L. Scott Johnson wrote: >> Hage <ha...@cs.utwente.nl> writes: >> >L. Scott Johnson wrote: >> All "Do Not Replace Until After Combat" cards are replaced at the >> end of the next combat, or at the end of the action, whichever comes >> first. Who is engaged in combat is irrelevant. (So none of the above >> are actually official). >Well, I disagree. You see, I feel that what's meant with the "Do Not >Replace Until After Combat" realy means: do not replace until action is >resolved (so: if you feel wakey enables you to react with V AFTER combat >between vamp A and B is resolved, you also can't replace the card, >because this is not the combat wakey is referring to. Ofcourse, if you >want to get technicaly, you might be right. I however, find it illogical >and wrong). Sure, and I agree with your viewpoint - that wakey cannot be replaced until after its usefulness has passed. But I was merely echoing the official stance on all "DNRUAC" cards. My own view of how the cards should work is often in conflict with the official view. I was pointing out this timing oddity as an example of how strange things can get under the official rules. Officially, you may wake and block and, if the opposing vampire continues the action with superior Form of Mist, play more intercept (+1) and block again - because the wake is still in effect. You'd replace the wake at the end of the first combat, however, per card text. [ quoted text not captured ]

L. Scott Johnson wrote: > <Again lots of stuf cut to small bits...> > Sure, and I agree with your viewpoint - that wakey cannot be replaced > until after its usefulness has passed. But I was merely echoing the > official stance on all "DNRUAC" cards. My own view of how the cards > should work is often in conflict with the official view. I was > pointing out this timing oddity as an example of how strange things can > get under the official rules. > > Officially, you may wake and block and, if the opposing vampire > continues > the action with superior Form of Mist, play more intercept (+1) and > block again - because the wake is still in effect. You'd replace the > wake at the end of the first combat, however, per card text. So we agree after all ;) > -- > L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Theater is life > http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | Film is art > Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | Television is furniture -- [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <4k34tl$n...@redwood.cs.sc.edu>, sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote: >>> Situation: >>> >>> I have a blocker (B) about to enter combat. >>> I have a tapped vampire (V) with auspex. >>> I have a Wakey and Fast Reaction in my hand. >>> >>> B and the acting minion play out their combat. >>> I play Wakey and Fast Reaction on V, who now enters combat. >>> I do not replace the Wakey until the new combat is over. >>> >>> --- >>> But, if I had played the Wakey at the start of B's combat >>> (still playing it on V, of course), I would have >>> replaced it at the end of the first combat, and had an >>> extra card in hand available during the entire second combat. [...] >All "Do Not Replace Until After Combat" cards are replaced at the >end of the next combat, or at the end of the action, whichever comes >first. Who is engaged in combat is irrelevant. (So none of the above >are actually official). Is that an official ruling ? It sounds a bit off and is obviously leading to such weird situations as you outlined above. Lets view it from a different perspektive: "Do Not Replace..." is mostly found on non-skill cards, punishing you for not using a skill based card. A ruling like "replaced at the end of the NEXT combat" would get rid of that punishment and I'd consider that a bug. I agree it might be difficult to find a general ruling that is free of contradiction. What would be the drawback if "Do Not Replace..." cards were replaced after the playing minion finished his next combat or the current action is finished ? (Which IMHO is how it was meant to be anyway) Bye, Michael -- +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael Gerdau email: michael...@elmshorn.netsurf.de | | 2b or not 2b that's ff (or ger...@ifm.uni-hamburg.de) | +---------------------------------------------------------------+

At the end of each combat (and after each action), replace any "do not replace until after combat" cards that have been played since the last end of combat. If a card such as Fast Reaction is used to generate another combat, you still replace cards at the end of the original combat. Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.