Thoughts Betrayed

Hi Methuselahs, I have observed a great deal of comment about thoughts betrayed lately, mostly pointing out it is a broken card. I am not at all sure that I agree with this. For one thing, only the superior version of TB is really useful, as the inferior version would have you spending two blood before combat to do one damage to your opponent at the end of each round, hardly the optimum card for my combat decks. Thus it follows that for TB to be really dangerous, you need vampires with superior Dominate, not something all that common in combat decks. You are likely to find it with Tremere, so I will address them seperately. In building a competitive deck, it is necessary to do at least one thing reliably and consistently. In order to acomplish this, you tend to put in lots of certain types of cards, ala stealth, etc. In the case of a combat deck, you need to reliably get into combat with the minion of your choice, and then reliably and consistently pummell said minion. Now, this is fairly easy to accomplish with decks based on Celerity (and Potence), or with Protean and Fortitude, at least the pummelling part. Both of these deck types do require something else to enter combat, typically Bums Rush / Haven uncovered, (or Intercept for Toreador/Tremere), thus not leaving a whole lot of room for Dominate skill cards. Additionally, you really don't have the extra turns necessary to "build" superior Dominate onto your combat Vampires if you are playing in a competitive environment. So for this card to be a real game breaker, it is reasonably safe to say you need to have Dominate as a disipline of your vampires when you get them into play, especially superior Dominate. This basically leaves you with Malkavians (non-combat), Ventrue (non-combat), Tremere, and a couple of Brujah and Toreador from DS. In fairness, I haven't yet tried to make a Brujah / Toreador Guns and Celerity deck with only dominate vamps, however I have used it extensively with Tremere. The results have been good, but not game breaking. I have found the two blood cost of the card to be pretty well balancing, even with six taste of vitae in my deck. Admitedly, my weekly games are very difficult, our group has been playing aggressive NL games for more than a year, and we have well designed and competitive decks. Still, I haven't even been able to alter anyones deck building strategy by including TB in my Tremere deck. It simply makes them as good as other combat decks. I am open to discussing other potential flaws with TB, but as yet I haven't found them to be a problem in our games. Algustas *****Without Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as publick Liberty, without Freedom of Speech***** Benjamin Franklin

Ventrue do make a good combat deck, primarily because of thier fortitude. REF > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [ quoted text not captured ]

> Hi Paul, > I propose you try this, build a lean and mean Brujah rush combat > deck, and kill all his small vamps before he gets superior dominate on > them. While the concept of trashing someone with TB is sound tactically, > on a strategic (deck building) level, it takes too much of your > resources, you need big vamps with superior dominate, this leaves you > with two big Brujah and the Tremere, and only the big Tremere have > superior Dominate. > As a deck building strategy, TB is just too slow to base your > deck on, you will get creamed by a faster combat deck every time (at > least I have, and I have tryed TB the last four weeks in a row at our > weekly game...) > Algustas > > > On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Paul Schaaf wrote: > > > > > I noticed a few posts complaining that Thoughts Betrayed is too > > powerful. I heartily agree. Has anyone come up with any house rules for > > limiting it? I've seen it work with devastating effectiveness in both a > > Tremere and a Brujah burn deck. There really doesn't seem to be any > > defense against it other than to play yours first or maybe obedience (not > > sure if timing allows this.) Anyway, it's just not much fun to get into > > combat and watch helplessly as your foe deals out enough agg damage to > > burn your fresh new vampire and have to just sit there and do nothing. > > The only defense I can see against a rush deck built around this card is > > a weenie S&B deck. Any suggestions would be welcomed. > > > > --------- > > Paul Schaaf > > sch...@u.washington.edu > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ But if the prey and predator are not good rushers by the time it gets to you it will be tough to stop. (I play 4 to 10 player games, with 5 being average) And if you rush him before he is your problem then your weakening your own position. Also Ventrue and Malks have a good mix of Sup Dominate. They don't have to be good in a fight if you can't play cards (unless your using guns, which Ventrue will easily ignore without additional strikes or ammo cards.) REF

Paul Schaaf <sch...@u.washington.edu> writes: >I noticed a few posts complaining that Thoughts Betrayed is too >powerful. I heartily agree. Has anyone come up with any house rules for >limiting it? I've seen it work with devastating effectiveness in both a >Tremere and a Brujah burn deck. There really doesn't seem to be any >defense against it other than to play yours first or maybe obedience (not >sure if timing allows this.) Anyway, it's just not much fun to get into As far as Obedience goes... Tom is under the impression that the 'at the last moment' errata to the 'before combat' phrase of this combat card is sufficient to allow other 'before combat' phrased cards (action modifiers and reactions) to have precedence. Why this is so is still elusive. Treat the 'at the last moment before combat' as 'at the first moment of combat' and everything works as Tom claims it should (and then the combat card will be played *during* combat - and added bonus for those preferring rules over exceptions). >combat and watch helplessly as your foe deals out enough agg damage to >burn your fresh new vampire and have to just sit there and do nothing. >The only defense I can see against a rush deck built around this card is >a weenie S&B deck. Any suggestions would be welcomed. From the House Rules list: Thoughts Betrayed - change superior to: Opponent cannot play any cards /during the first round/ of combat. [JRM] -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | These opinions are mine and http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | are subject to card text. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote: >From the House Rules list: > >Thoughts Betrayed - > change superior to: Opponent cannot play any cards /during the first round/ > of combat. > [JRM] Someone else suggested on this group a few days ago (sorry, I forget who, but I liked your idea!) : Change superior to : Neither vampire can play cards for the remainder of the combat. ObWorldOfDarknessJustification - the vampire being Dominating is so busy reading the other fiend's mind that he doesn't have the time to play his own nasty tricks :) Alec -- Alec Habig, Indiana University High Energy Astrophysics aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu http://www.astro.indiana.edu/home/ahabig/ Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns.

Hi Paul, I propose you try this, build a lean and mean Brujah rush combat deck, and kill all his small vamps before he gets superior dominate on them. While the concept of trashing someone with TB is sound tactically, on a strategic (deck building) level, it takes too much of your resources, you need big vamps with superior dominate, this leaves you with two big Brujah and the Tremere, and only the big Tremere have superior Dominate. As a deck building strategy, TB is just too slow to base your deck on, you will get creamed by a faster combat deck every time (at least I have, and I have tryed TB the last four weeks in a row at our weekly game...) Algustas *****The Dance that is...everything...You'll see. Earth, air, fire, water - and the Greater Trumps. There's a way to all knowledge and prophecy, when the cards and they are brought together.***** Charles Williams, the Greater Trumps On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Paul Schaaf wrote: > > I noticed a few posts complaining that Thoughts Betrayed is too > powerful. I heartily agree. Has anyone come up with any house rules for > limiting it? I've seen it work with devastating effectiveness in both a > Tremere and a Brujah burn deck. There really doesn't seem to be any > defense against it other than to play yours first or maybe obedience (not > sure if timing allows this.) Anyway, it's just not much fun to get into > combat and watch helplessly as your foe deals out enough agg damage to > burn your fresh new vampire and have to just sit there and do nothing. > The only defense I can see against a rush deck built around this card is > a weenie S&B deck. Any suggestions would be welcomed. > > --------- > Paul Schaaf > sch...@u.washington.edu > > >

Algustas (cfr...@gladstone.uoregon.edu) wrote: : As a deck building strategy, TB is just too slow to base your : deck on, you will get creamed by a faster combat deck every time (at : least I have, and I have tryed TB the last four weeks in a row at our : weekly game...) Why try to base the deck entirely around TB combos? I've found that Tremere decks (or any deck for that matter) that depend on specific, multi-card combos as the primary weapon are destined to have trouble. This is simply due to the probability inherent in any card-based game. All I have been trying to say is that if you have a good combat deck, and your vampires have dominate, a few skill cards and some thoughts betrayed will make them _much_ better in combat. When you can already hold your own, getting a card which can effectively paralyze your opponent for an entire combat equals torpor. -James

What I want to know is, does WotC have any intention of changing Thoughts Betrayed? Is Tom (or somebody) sitting in the background somewhere considering it, or is all of our arguing moot? Tom? [BTW, my suggestion is that the Sup. should say that neither vampire may play cards during combat.] James -- James Hamblin | Consultant, CS 212 Cornell University | V.P. of Wargames, CSSS http://www-sunlab.cit.cornell.edu/Info/People/jhamblin/index.html

On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Algustas wrote: > Hi Paul, > I propose you try this, build a lean and mean Brujah rush combat > deck, and kill all his small vamps before he gets superior dominate on > them. While the concept of trashing someone with TB is sound tactically, > on a strategic (deck building) level, it takes too much of your > resources, you need big vamps with superior dominate, this leaves you > with two big Brujah and the Tremere, and only the big Tremere have > superior Dominate. Any deck based on TB should bring out a vamp with sup. dom. first rather than trying to rely on skill cards. For Tremere this is no problem. For Brujah it's a bit tougher, but if you don't get one right away, you should still be able to defend yourself. I would agree that any deck that relies on Dominate skill cards for this would probably fall apart. --------- Paul Schaaf sch...@u.washington.edu

Obedience is a reaction card while TB is a combat card. Obedience beats out TB, as has been previously posted (so I'm not the only one who says so).

On 16 Jan 1996, L. Scott Johnson wrote: > From the House Rules list: > > Thoughts Betrayed - > change superior to: Opponent cannot play any cards /during the first round/ > of combat. > [JRM] This works until a Brujah deck gets ahold of it. Try a deck based on the two Brujah with superior dominate. You run the risk of contesting, but it's almost a guaranteed burn once you get in combat. --------- Paul Schaaf sch...@u.washington.edu

On 16 Jan 1996, Alec Habig wrote: > L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote: > >From the House Rules list: > > > >Thoughts Betrayed - > > change superior to: Opponent cannot play any cards /during the first round/ > > of combat. > > [JRM] > > Someone else suggested on this group a few days ago (sorry, I forget who, but I > liked your idea!) : > > Change superior to : Neither vampire can play cards for the remainder of the > combat. I like it! This would give good combat defence for any deck with dominate without making anyone devastating in combat. I guess all you gun deck fans would really like this :) --------- Paul Schaaf sch...@u.washington.edu

Hi James, Your arguments have been logical, if I agreed with your premises then I would agree with your conclusion; however.... On 16 Jan 1996, James Puzzo wrote: > Algustas (cfr...@gladstone.uoregon.edu) wrote: > : As a deck building strategy, TB is just too slow to base your > : deck on, you will get creamed by a faster combat deck every time (at > : least I have, and I have tryed TB the last four weeks in a row at our > : weekly game...) > > Why try to base the deck entirely around TB combos? I've found that Tremere > decks (or any deck for that matter) that depend on specific, multi-card > combos as the primary weapon are destined to have trouble. This is simply > due to the probability inherent in any card-based game. I couldn't agree more! The point of my argument is that without the multi-card TB combo Tremere don't stack up well against other combat decks, ie. Brujah and Gangrel. > > All I have been trying to say is that if you have a good combat deck, and > your vampires have dominate, a few skill cards and some thoughts betrayed > will make them _much_ better in combat. Once again, I completely agree. > When you can already hold your own, > getting a card which can effectively paralyze your opponent for an entire > combat equals torpor. Ahh, now we get to the meat of the matter. As long as one accepts the above premise, then your conlusion stands. However, it has been my painfull experience that, sans TB, Tremere routinely get their buts kicked by Celerity decks and Gangrel. This would probably not have been the case when we first started playing Jyhad, but since one of our regulars routinely plays a Brujah bully deck, and another plays a Gangrel monster deck, the combat designs have gotten pretty good, and even though I am very partial to the Tremere clan, I was unable to compete as a combat deck with them. It has been my experience that TB tends to even the playing field a bit, at least until the Brujah decide to start packing guns... Algustas *****We shall not cease from exploration, And the end of all our exploring, Will be to arrive where we started, And know the place for the first time.***** T. S. Eliot

In article <Pine.OSF.3.91l.96011...@saul2.u.washington.edu>, Paul Schaaf <sch...@u.washington.edu> wrote: > > >On 16 Jan 1996, L. Scott Johnson wrote: > >> From the House Rules list: >> >> Thoughts Betrayed - >> change superior to: Opponent cannot play any cards /during the first round/ >> of combat. >> [JRM] > >This works until a Brujah deck gets ahold of it. Try a deck based on the >two Brujah with superior dominate. You run the risk of contesting, but >it's almost a guaranteed burn once you get in combat. > >--------- >Paul Schaaf >sch...@u.washington.edu Paul never had to actually fight the Brujah TB deck, and I'm glad I did not have to face it either. I think the other vamp only made it out of the first round once or twice :) TB with torn signpost, blur, burning wrath and a taste to finish it off was very devestating. And since all the vamps in the crypt had dominate it could modify bleeds after a block was declined (unlike the presence bleed boosts). Yes, it is very card intensive, but it worked very well (esp after I got the bk of Nod out). -steve kertes ker...@netcom.com

James Hamblin (jham...@sunlab.cit.cornell.edu) wrote: : What I want to know is, does WotC have any intention of changing : Thoughts Betrayed? Is Tom (or somebody) sitting in the background : somewhere considering it, or is all of our arguing moot? It does not seem that _any_ such change is in the works. WotC has already stated a clarification to the card (through Tom) with regards to the fact that when the card text uses the word "use" it really means "play" cards; i.e. that one can use cards that one already has played (guns and flak jackets, huzzah!). At that time, Tom made it clear that the card, with the clarification was exactly what they meant for the card to do, and that there were no further errata. -James

Alec Habig <aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu> wrote: >L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote: >>From the House Rules list: >> >>Thoughts Betrayed - >> change superior to: Opponent cannot play any cards /during the first round/ >> of combat. >> [JRM] > >Someone else suggested on this group a few days ago (sorry, I forget who, but I >liked your idea!) : > >Change superior to : Neither vampire can play cards for the remainder of the >combat. What about: "Play as a round of combat begins. Opposing minion cannot play combat cards that round." That would let the Tremere ram through their second round strikes, which are a little too easily dodged at present. It also presents a method for Tremere to deal with Celerity combat (if they can only TB 1st round they will have trouble torporizing). Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960110175015.19680C-100000@ccserver>, Algustas <cfr...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> writes: >The results [of TB in a no limit game] have >been good, but not game breaking. > I have found the two blood cost of the card to be pretty well >balancing, even with six taste of vitae in my deck. Admitedly, my weekly >games are very difficult, our group has been playing aggressive NL games >for more than a year, and we have well designed and competitive decks. >Still, I haven't even been able to alter anyones deck building strategy >by including TB in my Tremere deck. It simply makes them as good as other >combat decks. > I am open to discussing other potential flaws with TB, but as yet >I haven't found them to be a problem in our games. Thanks for an informed comment. However, I wouldn't think 6 Taste of Vitae would be enough to "properly" abuse TB. I would normally expect to play 2 to 3 Tastes for every TB. Drain Essence substitutes for a few, but since it's 2nd round only, it has to be used sparingly.

On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Paul Schaaf wrote: [A Call for people to present their own house rules for the "broken" Thoughts Betrayed.] I'm not sure that Thoughts Betrayed is broken. I was thinking about the card one day and came up with my own version: THOUGHTS BETRAYED - Combat, Dominate, No Cost - Inferior: At the end of each round, this vampire may spend 1 blood to cause one damage. Superior: Each time the opposing minion attempts to play a card, this vampire can pay 1 blood to cancel the opposing minion's card. Comments? "I can send and receive e-mail even over the Internet"-aol commercial @#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$ # Adrian Sullivan sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu Spoutingly yours 8^) # $ GAT/CS/O/WS R+++* tv&--- b++(+++)&+ t X++&-- 5->? e+*>++++ PS+&-+ @ # PE&++&- C(+++)$ UX+>+++$ N++(+) K+>++++ w---$>? M++$ r(+) y*+? 3.1# @#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$

Hi Curt, On 18 Jan 1996, CurtAdams wrote: > In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960110175015.19680C-100000@ccserver>, Algustas > <cfr...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> writes: > [Stuff about TB & Taste of Vitae deleted] > > I am open to discussing other potential flaws with TB, but as yet > >I haven't found them to be a problem in our games. > > Thanks for an informed comment. However, I wouldn't think 6 Taste of > Vitae would be enough to "properly" abuse TB. I would normally expect to > play 2 to 3 Tastes for every TB. Drain Essence substitutes for a few, but > since it's 2nd round only, it has to be used sparingly. > Well, that's certainly true enough, however, that many ToV would be abusive in any combat deck, even Gangrel. While I shudder with disgust at CL, I suppose the DT should put Taste of Vitae on the tournament restricted list. Sigh. Algustas *****We must survive Gehenna and establish the tenets of the new world order once the horror is overcome. If we are to succeed, we must control the other clans. No more time can be wasted. If they cannot be convinced to aid us, they must be forced.***** Some Tremere, Vampire: The Masquerade

In article <4dgqae$l...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, Alec Habig <aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu> wrote: >L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote: >>From the House Rules list: >> >>Thoughts Betrayed - >> change superior to: Opponent cannot play any cards /during the first round/ >> of combat. >> [JRM] > >Someone else suggested on this group a few days ago (sorry, I forget who, but I >liked your idea!) : > >Change superior to : Neither vampire can play cards for the remainder of the >combat. I agree that TB is a broken card...is this an issue that the CL/NCL camps are united on? Then you KNOW this card is bad! I prefer the first "fix"--only affects the first round of combat. The other fix doesn't solve all the problems that TB can cause (it works against TB + Thaum, but doesn't fix the TB+Sengir Dagger/Ivory Bow combo). Either fix would be better than what we have now. Just my 2c. -Elfholme -- ****************************************************************************** This bit of wisdom has been brought to you by: Mark Havener Lord of elfh...@netcom.com Wood Elf King (and Jyhad player extraordinaire!) ******************************************************************************

Hi Ref, On Tue, 16 Jan 1996 refp...@best.com wrote: (Stuff about rushing small Tremere deleted) > But if the prey and predator are not good rushers by the > time it gets to you it will be tough to stop. > (I play 4 to 10 player games, with 5 being average) > And if you rush him before he is your problem then your > weakening your own position. True enough, but you are not his problem yet either. If you have a vote deck and get out four vamps before it gets down to the two of you, he probably will not survive your first turn anyway. I wasn't trying to say you had to rush him early, just responding to a request for advise on dealing with TB.... > Also Ventrue and Malks have a good mix of Sup Dominate. > They don't have to be good in a fight if you can't play cards > (unless your using guns, which Ventrue will easily ignore > without additional strikes or ammo cards.) This is true, and if someone want's to build a combat deck with either Ventrue or Malkavians, I think they should be able to get all the help they can.... Their vampires have a good chance of being contested, and they will probably be less dangerous in a combat deck than in a vote deck or bleed deck, respectively... Algustas *****The best way to get even with ones enemies is to outlive them. Because we are reasonable and above such petty concerns as vengence, we are the leaders among our kind. Our colleagues do little to support the Camarilla, so we must bear the burden alone."***** Some Ventrue, Vampire: The Masquerade

>On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Paul Schaaf wrote: > >> >> I noticed a few posts complaining that Thoughts Betrayed is too >> powerful. I heartily agree. Has anyone come up with any house rules for >> limiting it? I've seen it work with devastating effectiveness in both a >> Tremere and a Brujah burn deck. There really doesn't seem to be any >> defense against it other than to play yours first or maybe obedience (not >> sure if timing allows this.) Anyway, it's just not much fun to get into >> combat and watch helplessly as your foe deals out enough agg damage to >> burn your fresh new vampire and have to just sit there and do nothing. >> The only defense I can see against a rush deck built around this card is >> a weenie S&B deck. Any suggestions would be welcomed. >> >> --------- >> Paul Schaaf >> sch...@u.washington.edu I have seen a couple of responses to TB. First of all it was posted that Obedience does beat out TB, messy to actually try. "Ok, do you have any more reaction cards to play?" "Well if you put it that way, yes I play TB." Two other things that I've found. Mariel Lady Thunde, doesn't usually show up in combat decks and Elsyium The arb, again doesn't= show up in combat decks, so for a brujah cel+pot deck neither will help. Very few other things will stop it. Consider a 9 or 10 Tremere, TB + Trap + Weather Control. It's over in a couple of rounds. Aaron

The Corrupter (sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu) wrote: : On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Paul Schaaf wrote: : [A Call for people to present their own house rules for the "broken" : Thoughts Betrayed.] : I'm not sure that Thoughts Betrayed is broken. I was thinking about the : card one day and came up with my own version: : THOUGHTS BETRAYED - Combat, Dominate, No Cost - : Inferior: At the end of each round, this vampire may spend 1 blood : to cause one damage. : Superior: Each time the opposing minion attempts to play a card, this : vampire can pay 1 blood to cancel the opposing minion's card. : Comments? When does this have to be played? Before range is chosen? How about adding "or cancel the effects of opposing minion's equipment" to the superior? Otherwise I'm not sure it makes Malks and Ventrues fighters, which is what I thought the point of DS TB was. - Neil -- nwbe...@unix.amherst.edu, lentus in umbra | nudus ara, sere nudus... in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro

CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote: >Thanks for an informed comment. However, I wouldn't think 6 Taste of >Vitae would be enough to "properly" abuse TB. I would normally expect to >play 2 to 3 Tastes for every TB. Drain Essence substitutes for a few, but >since it's 2nd round only, it has to be used sparingly. THEFT of Vitae, not Taste. Sorry about that, nasty typo.

Neil Bernstein (nwbe...@unix.amherst.edu) wrote: : The Corrupter (sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu) wrote: : : I'm not sure that Thoughts Betrayed is broken. I was thinking about the : : card one day and came up with my own version: : : THOUGHTS BETRAYED - Combat, Dominate, No Cost - : : Inferior: At the end of each round, this vampire may spend 1 blood : : to cause one damage. : : Superior: Each time the opposing minion attempts to play a card, this : : vampire can pay 1 blood to cancel the opposing minion's card. : How about adding "or cancel the effects of opposing minion's equipment" : to the superior? Otherwise I'm not sure it makes Malks and Ventrues : fighters, which is what I thought the point of DS TB was. Interesting that that was your impression. It was my impression that the original intent was for TB to be combat _defence_, not to turn Malks and Ventrue into fighters. Remember, the original text of the card (after clarification) allows the minion to use that equipment he/she already has... just not that torn signpost or wolf claws. I was further under the impression that people were upset because while it did a good job of combat defence, it seemed to be able to be twisted into a use other than this initial intent: namely, to pump up a combat deck. This line of thinking is what brought people to suggest that the card text be errata'd to say: neither minion in combat may play cards until the end of combat. I'd LOVE to hear a clarification of the intent of the card so we can make house rules to make their card say what they meant... -James

In article <4dl6fo$7...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, CurtAdams <curt...@aol.com> wrote: >In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960110175015.19680C-100000@ccserver>, Algustas ><cfr...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> writes: > >>The results [of TB in a no limit game] have >>been good, but not game breaking. >> I have found the two blood cost of the card to be pretty well >>balancing, even with six taste of vitae in my deck. Admitedly, my weekly >>games are very difficult, our group has been playing aggressive NL games >>for more than a year, and we have well designed and competitive decks. >>Still, I haven't even been able to alter anyones deck building strategy >>by including TB in my Tremere deck. It simply makes them as good as other > >>combat decks. >> I am open to discussing other potential flaws with TB, but as yet >>I haven't found them to be a problem in our games. > >Thanks for an informed comment. However, I wouldn't think 6 Taste of >Vitae would be enough to "properly" abuse TB. I would normally expect to >play 2 to 3 Tastes for every TB. Drain Essence substitutes for a few, but >since it's 2nd round only, it has to be used sparingly. > My Brujah TB deck used something like 12 TB and 18 Tastes, I play that only 1 Taste can be played per round, a cost of 2 was nothing when I knew that the damage caused by a blured torn signpost would not be avoided. (The hardest part was having enough blood to use Burning Wrath before tasting.) -steve kertes ker...@netcom.com ker...@geoworks.com

James Puzzo (jam...@gw.digibd.com) wrote: : Interesting that that was your impression. It was my impression that the : original intent was for TB to be combat _defence_, not to turn Malks and : Ventrue into fighters. Remember, the original text of the card (after : clarification) allows the minion to use that equipment he/she already has... : just not that torn signpost or wolf claws. : I was further under the impression that people were upset because while : it did a good job of combat defence, it seemed to be able to be twisted into : a use other than this initial intent: namely, to pump up a combat deck. : This line of thinking is what brought people to suggest that the card text : be errata'd to say: neither minion in combat may play cards until the end : of combat. : I'd LOVE to hear a clarification of the intent of the card so we can make : house rules to make their card say what they meant... : -James I don't think there's anything wrong with finding a use for a card that wasn't originally intended, even if it's as bad [apparently] as using TB for the Tremere to torporize... It honestly reminds me of MTG's Spirit Link; the original intent was to slap it on your attacking creatures, and turn them into El-Hajjajs. But you can slap it on opponent's creatures, as well, and nullify their attacks against you, and slap it on your creatures that damage you [LotP/FoN, etc.] and nullify THAT, and so on. Based on all that, the card is too powerful; perhaps TB is the same way. But if the fact that no change was made to Spirit Link [even when reprinted] is anything to judge by, I wouldn't expect WotC or the DC to change TB at all. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | "What is a man without the beasts? If the beasts were gone, | | man would die from a great loneliness of spirit." | | "Confuse, annoy, and dee-STROY!!" Call me "Nicole" and I | | npu...@tiger.lsu.edu -- Jet...@aol.com will have to kill you. | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I appologize in advance for the continuation of a Magic comparison. Above, someone compared TB to the Magic card Spirit Link as an example of how a cards originally intended use could be twisted to the forces of evil. The major difference (and the most important one) between TB and Spirit Link is that Spirit Link can be dealt with. TB cannot. If someone finds some clever use for Spirit Link, you can Counter Spell it, Disenchant it, Tranquility it, Enchantment Alter it, Terror the critter, STP the critter, Fireball the critter, ect., ect.,ect. Once someone Thoughts Betrayed's you, it's all over. If you run into a TB combat deck (Tremere, Giovanni, Euro-Brujah), and they play a TB on you, you will be torporized or burned. No ifs, ands or buts. You can't defend yourself in any way, and permanent combat won't help, because if they are a combat deck (and they are), they will be able to counter act your one manuver from your gun, counter act your piddiling gun damage (using Acrobatics, Immortal Grapple, Blood Fury, or Blood Stealing strikes, for instance), and you will just stand around while they either Blur+Torn Signpost+Burning Wrath you, or they steal your blood, press, Blood Fury, press, and Walk of Flame you off this immortal coil. There is only one reliable counter to the offensive use of TB, and that is the Elisium, which is unique, fragile, and can be stolen (by vamps with DOM I might add...), so that is hardly a sure thing. As a defensive card, it is acceptable, as guns will work fairly well against a Malkavian using TB (minimal combat ability and no damage prevention), and the Ventrue were already immune to combat, so it has little bearing on them. It is in the Offensive where it is entirely out of control. (See. There wasn't that much about MTG...) Add my vote to the house rule listing for TB as "Niether Minion may play cards until the end of combat" (If only we could convince the local Tremere player of that...) -Peter D Bakija

Hi Neil, On 18 Jan 1996, Neil Bernstein wrote: [Stuff about TB House rules deleted] > How about adding "or cancel the effects of opposing minion's equipment" > to the superior? Otherwise I'm not sure it makes Malks and Ventrues > fighters, which is what I thought the point of DS TB was. > Actually, I think the card was put in to help the Giovanni, who have a fairly week combination of powers without it.... Algustas *****No other beings have as great an understanding of Death as we do. There is no great mystery, no facet of existence that affects every moment more than the fact that existence always ends. To understand this fully would render one omniscient.***** Some Giovanni, The Vampire Players Guide

Like I have said again and again TB is essentially a combo card and BURNING AN OPPOSING VAMPIRE IS HARD TO PULL OFF AND IT COSTS A LOT! Look man, if I were to construct a combat deck, I had better be able to send a non-combat deck's vampire to torpor or close to it when I did get into a fight with them. If I were to use all that deck space for presses and maneuvers and extra strikes, I had better be able to do some serious damage to those pansies who only spent a fraction of her deck on Skin of Steel, Majesty, Form of Mist, and Earth Meld. If I had to waste deck space on Walk of Flame, I had better get a higher than 0.05% chance of torporing a Gangrel with it. In short, I hope your local Tremere player gets his five-card combo against you every time and burn all your pansy-buttocked vampires. --Grigori di Corci

In article <4e3q70$k...@news.cc.utah.edu>, FirstName LastName <FirstName...@u.cc.utah.edu> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Yes, it is a combo card. Yes, it might often take a number of cards to pull off the combo. The point that others take to say the card is unbalancing (which I'm not sure about yet. I'd like to see it in play more.) is that for any other combat combo you can name, there is an escape that is relatively easily rendered. For TB there is essentially none. Mariel and Elysium are unique. Obedience is only usable by dominate. Etc.. etc.. If the combo is there, they are dead. Period. If you can name any other card that does that, by all means, enlighten me. Whether this is a bad thing or not... read the above. I think that a TB deck would be extremely card intensive and would have difficulty in eliminating more than one prey. Of course, I am really speaking out of my rear end on that, because I haven't experienced or made such a deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > > Like I have said again and again TB is essentially a combo card and > > BURNING AN OPPOSING VAMPIRE IS HARD TO PULL OFF AND IT COSTS A LOT! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~` > >(Yes but a lot of simple combos. Try a TB plus a bow, dagger or flame thrower. Since they can't play a card to prevent the damage they will go to torpor. Play a trap for a press, there are a lot of cards that maneuver as part of the strike and/or add a press. You don'thave to do much each round since they can't stop you. And since you know exactly what they will do for a strike (since it has to be on the table) you can prevent, dodge, steal or even taste it. With Immortal Grapple this is only for one round and had to be played at close and just limits strikes. TB limits strikes , maneuvers, presses, prevention, etc. Only permanence works for the victom. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Look man, if I were to construct a combat deck, I had better be able > > to send a non-combat deck's vampire to torpor or close to it when I > > did get into a fight with them. If I were to use all that deck space > > for presses and maneuvers and extra strikes, I had better be able to > > do some serious damage to those pansies who only spent a fraction of > > her deck on Skin of Steel, Majesty, Form of Mist, and Earth Meld. > > > > If I had to waste deck space on Walk of Flame, I had better get a > > higher than 0.05% chance of torporing a Gangrel with it. In short, > > I hope your local Tremere player gets his five-card combo against you > > every time and burn all your pansy-buttocked vampires. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Since they can't play any damage prevention, whenever you have a walk of flame you will torpor them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Yes, it is a combo card. Yes, it might often take a number of cards to > pull off the combo. The point that others take to say the card is > unbalancing (which I'm not sure about yet. I'd like to see it in play > more.) is that for any other combat combo you can name, there is an > escape that is relatively easily rendered. For TB there is essentially > none. Mariel and Elysium are unique. Obedience is only usable by > dominate. Etc.. etc.. If the combo is there, they are dead. Period. If > you can name any other card that does that, by all means, enlighten me. > > Whether this is a bad thing or not... read the above. > I think that a TB deck would be extremely card intensive and would have > difficulty in eliminating more than one prey. Of course, I am really > speaking out of my rear end on that, because I haven't experienced or > made such a deck. > > "I can send and receive e-mail even over the Internet"-aol commercial > @#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$ > # Adrian Sullivan sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu Spoutingly yours 8^) # > $ GAT/CS/O/WS R+++* tv&--- b++(+++)&+ t X++&-- 5->? e+*>++++ PS+&-+ @ > # PE&++&- C(+++)$ UX+>+++$ N++(+) K+>++++ w---$>? M++$ r(+) y*+? 3.1# > @#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ REF ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

First of all, TB is not impossible to stop (see previous article listing at least twenty ways to counter TB). Secondly, a card that is rarely unstoppable is not unbalancing. Offensive to a handful Methuselahs' paranoid sense of efficacy maybe, but unbalancing it is not. --Grigori di Corci

In article <4e9q7i$c...@news.cc.utah.edu>, [ quoted text not captured ] A card that is "rarely unstoppable"? You're considerably overvaluing the "at least 20 ways" of stopping TB. What, I have to pack my deck with those just in case someone decides to use TB? Not to mention that these "20 ways" are all much more easily dealt with than Thoughts Betrayed is. Also, I think there are more than "a handfull" of players who disagree, even a few who play 4CL (like me). > >--Grigori di Corci -Jasper -- /\ Jasper Phillips (Pit Fiend) ______,....----, /VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|==================="""""""""""" ___,..-' `^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|======================----------"""""" \/ http://www.cs.orst.edu/~philljas/

The 20 "counters" posted above to Thoughts Betrayed were all (but one or two, Elisium and/or Mariel) were discounted as any sort of useful defense against the offensive use of Thoughts Betrayed. None of them worked to prevent someone who is intent on killing you who is using TB from killing you. TB in an offensive mode prevents the victim from defending themselves in any way, and in fact, prevents them from from playing the game all together, which is wrong (hi, James). If you would like, I could re-post my disection of all the above stated defenses. IMO, a card that is entirely unstoppable, unable to be avoided, and cannot be countered in any way is pretty close to unbalanced. -Peter D Bakija

> IMO, a card that is entirely unstoppable, unable to be avoided, and > cannot be countered in any way is pretty close to unbalanced. Blah again, you deceitful pansy-buttocked (closet) Gangrel/Ventrue! First of all, "disection of all the above stated defenses" has "disection" itself. Secondly, TB is not "entirely unstoppable, unable to be avoided, and cannot be countered in any way;" it is certainly further from that description than S:CE or SoS. The truth is, a card that counters cards which are previously close to "entirely unstoppable, unable to be avoided, and cannot be countered in any way" is darn outright offensive to the Pansy-assed Cheese- Wielders(tm). Rot in thy (now defunct) Kingdom of Cheesy Defense(tm). :p (Phhbt) --Grigori di Corci

In article <4edl08$9...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, pd...@aol.com says... > >The 20 "counters" posted above to Thoughts Betrayed were all (but one or >two, Elisium and/or Mariel) were discounted as any sort of useful defense >against the offensive use of Thoughts Betrayed. None of them worked to >prevent someone who is intent on killing you who is using TB from killing >you. > >TB in an offensive mode prevents the victim from defending themselves in >any way, and in fact, prevents them from from playing the game all >together, which is wrong (hi, James). > >If you would like, I could re-post my disection of all the above stated >defenses. > >IMO, a card that is entirely unstoppable, unable to be avoided, and cannot >be countered in any way is pretty close to unbalanced. > >-Peter D Bakija > Ditto for me, and the worst part is it ONLY cost 2 blood! I mean that's ridiculous, burning wrath is 3 (4?) and has less chance of burning a vampire than TB!!! TB needs an errata badly! Lou

Uh, yeah. Whatever. S:CE, which is a much more powerful ability than it should be for its cost (usually nothing) is avoided by Immortal Grapple, Hidden Lurker, Fast Reaction, and yes, Thoughts Betrayed. Thoughts Betrayed, on the other hand, which is generally regarded as a fine card for defensive purposes (thought to be it's original intent), is way to powerful for what it costs when used in an offensive fashion in a Tremere or Pot/Dom deck (Giovanni or Euro-Brujah). Basically, an attacking vampire gets to pay 2 blood to vaporise his victim. The only vaguely reliable defenses to TB are The Elisium and Mariel, both of which are _very_ fragile. For your convinience, I repeat my discounting of all stated defenses against TB. Please refute at your leisure: Thoughts Betrayed, it is pretty much agreed, is a perfectly reasonable defensive card, but when used in an offensive combat deck (Tremere, Giovani, Euro-Brujah) it becomes an insanely powerful card. The counters mentioned above only work to varying degrees against the offensive TB deck. If one assumes that a deck is built as either Bruise and Bleed deck (I go to bleed you for 5 using Govern the Unaligned, or you block me and I kill you...) or a Rush combat deck backed up with Thoughts Betrayed, it is a good probability that the deck will have A) Adaquate manuvers and presses, B) A consistent way to kill you, and C) A way to avoid damage or ignore weapons. Given all of these assumptions (which are in no way unreasonable for a well designed combat deck), the various counters for TB quickly fall apart: -Permanent combat options (guns, flak vests, ect): Against a competent combat deck, these will be all but usless in the face of TB. Guns can easily be nullified by a single manuver card (or another gun) and a card that either restricts the use of equipment (Immortal Grapple, Blood Fury, Drawing out the Beast), prevents damage (any FOR card, Dodge+multi strikes, Theft of Vitae), or does away with the equipment (Shattering Blow or Fast Hands). The Giovani are probably the least equiped for this (they only have Immortal Grapple and Shattering Blow), but the Tremere and the Euro-Brujah (the Brujah with DOM ) are very good at nulifying permanent combat, and then burning you. The Flak Vest/Resplendant Protector option does little in this case, as how is 1 point of damage reduction going to save you from a Blur+Torn Signpost+Burning Wrath combo? -Locations (Elisium and the Cops): Locations are very delicate, as they can be Arsoned or Rampaged. The Elisium can also be voted out, and as locations are unique, a clever TB combat deck could pack their own Elisium, just to contest yours at an opportune moment. Also, locations can be stolen, either by a vote or by Kine Dominance, which ironically can be used by the same folks as TB... -Mariel, Lady Thunder: She is just asking for it. She is always the first vampire to burn when she is played, as some combat deck will either rush her and slay her (especially as she can't play TB if the acting player plays it first), or she will be Malkavian Dementia'd, Ozmo will be rushed and torporized, and then Mariel will go and diablerize him ("Hey! We the Nosferatu are outraged!"). Talk about 2 birds with one stone. -The Master Element (Frenzy, Brujah Frenzy, Rotschreck): These are a wild card, as they may or may not help. Brujah Frenzy is a good one, as it makes Constantine Vinti go and pulp your preys vamp instead (or, it encourages Constantine to manuver to long range and flip your preys vamp the bird, as they both laugh at you). At least it will save you for one turn. Frenzy (I don't have one, and I don't really remember it well), I think will only save you from the Tremere, as the Brujah and Giovani want to get to close range and beat you with their Hands anyway. I can't really see a TB/Guns deck be worth making. Rotschreck is such a interperitation nightmare that hardly anyone uses it, as no one can agree on who it is supposed to screw with (I say the vamp about to Recieve aggro, as why would Basilia suddenly be undeathly afraid of her hands, but that's just me). -Basilia: She has the same problem as permanent combat. All she can do in the face of TB is stand around and try to poke you, while the TB vamp is manuvering and killing her from range, dodging and add'l striking, or preventing all her damage. Now you are out a 10 point vamp. Sad. It seems that the best defense against Thoughts Betrayed in an offensive mode is to have Mariel and Elisium out at the same time, have a hand full of Brujah Frenzies and Deflections (to avoid the Bruise/Bleed strategy), and a whole lot of itty bitty Caitif to intercept the stealth free Bum's Rushes (so you don't feel bad when they are martyred). If that is not the basis for a deck design, I don't know what is. -Peter D Bakija

PDB6 (pd...@aol.com) wrote: : Uh, yeah. Whatever. : Thoughts Betrayed, on the other hand, which is generally regarded as a : fine card for defensive purposes (thought to be it's original intent), is : way to powerful for what it costs when used in an offensive fashion in a : Tremere or Pot/Dom deck (Giovanni or Euro-Brujah). Basically, an : attacking vampire gets to pay 2 blood to vaporise his victim. The only : vaguely reliable defenses to TB are The Elisium and Mariel, both of which : are _very_ fragile. [Explanations of why Mariel, Elysium, etc. won't work against TB snipped.] : -Peter D Bakija Everyone keeps going on about TB; it is amazing. But one thing that seems in agreement among most is that it is only a problem in the attack-combat decks, not under defensive situations. With this in mind, I'm surprised no one has suggested [as I do now] a house rule like this: Thoughts Betrayed. Dominate 2 Blood Action Modifier [or does it say combat card? I forget] Only usable by a vampire which has just successfully blocked a minion's action. Inferior: Opposing minion takes 1 point...etc. Superior: Opposing minion may not use cards...etc. This would make the card still powerful from the point of view of those who have the right cards in their hand [such as the rush/gun or thaumaturgy decks], but can't be used to avoid being blocked; it can only be used in a defensive sense... This would seem a decent compromise on the card... [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <4eghsq$9...@news.cc.utah.edu>, Grigori di Corci <sl7...@u.cc.utah.edu> wrote: >> IMO, a card that is entirely unstoppable, unable to be avoided, and >> cannot be countered in any way is pretty close to unbalanced. > >Blah again, you deceitful pansy-buttocked (closet) Gangrel/Ventrue! > First of all, "disection of all the above stated defenses" has > "disection" itself. Secondly, TB is not "entirely unstoppable, > unable to be avoided, and cannot be countered in any way;" it is > certainly further from that description than S:CE or SoS. Right. But those things don't have quite the impact of TB, now do they? (ignoring degenerate repeat actions, etc.) > >The truth is, a card that counters cards which are previously close to > "entirely unstoppable, unable to be avoided, and cannot be countered > in any way" is darn outright offensive to the Pansy-assed Cheese- > Wielders(tm). Rot in thy (now defunct) Kingdom of Cheesy Defense(tm). I don't think the personal attacks are warranted. I play all styles of decks, and still find this unbalanced. If you don't play combat decks, you might not quite understand, since one combat deck is probably much the same as another when it attacks you. And in any event, what is so "Cheesy" about a combat deck? The whole point is that TB goes far beyond the statements you have made. By itself it counters combinations of cards... in combination itself... well figure it out. > >:p (Phhbt) > >--Grigori di Corci -Jasper [ quoted text not captured ]

>Thoughts Betrayed, it is pretty much agreed, is a perfectly reasonable >defensive card, but when used in an offensive combat deck (Tremere, >Giovani, Euro-Brujah) it becomes an insanely powerful card Euro-Brujah is exactly 2 vampires, Tremere is 7, and 1 Giovanni. All costing 7 or more. Any TB deck would have to be skill card heavy, about 6 dom and 6 pot/tha/cel leading to hand jams. Furthermore, skill cards aren't fast, taking many turns. >-Permanent combat options (guns, flak vests, ect): Against a competent >combat deck, these will be all but usless in the face of TB. Guns can >easily be nullified by a single manuver card (or another gun) and a card >that either restricts the use of equipment (Immortal Grapple, Blood Fury, >Drawing out the Beast), prevents damage (any FOR card, Dodge+multi >strikes, Theft of Vitae), or does away with the equipment (Shattering Blow >or Fast Hands). The Giovani are probably the least equiped for this (they >only have Immortal Grapple and Shattering Blow), but the Tremere and the >Euro-Brujah (the Brujah with DOM ) are very good at nulifying permanent >combat, and then burning you. The Flak Vest/Resplendant Protector option >does little in this case, as how is 1 point of damage reduction going to >save you from a Blur+Torn Signpost+Burning Wrath combo? How many of these are really valid? A manuver doesn't nullify the gun you still take the 1-4 pts of damage. Blood fury costs another blood to use and you still take hand damage. Who has dominate and animalism? Get real! Theft can break even against a magnum. Dodge + multi strikes, again only 2 vampires in the whole game. How many Shattering Blows or Fast Hands in the deck? 1 or 2, and you have to be at close. Again too unrealistic. In 20 games I have only once used Fast Hands to good effect and never seen another person do it. >-Locations (Elisium and the Cops): Locations are very delicate, as Generally seem pretty sturdy around here. A TB deck isn't going to have voting dominance and they sure won't have any actions to burn locations in there to avoid hand jams and 0 stealth is so hard to block. >-The Master Element (Frenzy, Brujah Frenzy, Rotschreck): These are a wild >card, as they may or may not help. That's as much as can be said about any card in any situation. >I can't really see a TB/Guns deck be worth making. I could, a ventrue with a Assault Rifle and TB and Trap = auto torpor and its only a 2 card combo, the smallest so far. A taste of vitae would make up for all the blood lost so its a 3 card combo. Furthermore 9 Ventrue can use it. I think TB/Guns is the best use of TB but can be countered by illegal search and seizure. All in All, a TB deck is a OTP or else it isn't effective enough to care about. A good predator will defeat the TB deck, either a voting deck or a sneaky bleed. If you put deflection in then you can't pull off your 7 card combo, if you put master cards in you can't pull off your 7 card combo, if you put actions in then you can't pull off your 7 card combo. A deck would have to be 80% combat and 20% other. Thats only 16-20 non-combat cards at the very most and it will have some jamming problems. A letter from Vienna would wipe out the Tremere. A few Brujah Frenzy could stop Euro-Brujah. I doubt anyone needs help defeating the Giovanni.

In article <4ehu37$4...@sulla.cyberstore.ca> what...@iceonline.com (Luis Machado) writes: >>IMO, a card that is entirely unstoppable, unable to be avoided, and cannot >>be countered in any way is pretty close to unbalanced. >Ditto for me, and the worst part is it ONLY cost 2 blood! I mean >that's ridiculous, burning wrath is 3 (4?) and has less chance of >burning a vampire than TB!!! TB needs an errata badly! ONLY costs 2 blood? 2 blood is a pretty large cost. In most combats the cost is greater than the damage you would have taken. Burning Wrath costs 3 and will burn a vampire when the opposing vampire has no strike such as after fast reaction or blur. Only 7 of the 19 tremere can effectively use TB and all cost 7 or more. If TB cost 3 blood then practically no one would use it. How much do you think it should cost? TB by itself does nothing, only with a 4-7 card combo is it effective. Furthermore TB doesn't work if the victim has equipment or retainers or one of a handfull of master cards.

In articles <dhoffman.1...@cris.com><dhoffman.1...@cris.com>, dhof...@cris.com (Daniel Hoffman) wrote: [Re: Cost of TB] > ONLY costs 2 blood? 2 blood is a pretty large cost. In most combats the cost > is greater than the damage you would have taken. Burning Wrath costs 3 and > will burn a vampire when the opposing vampire has no strike such as after fast > reaction or blur. Only 7 of the 19 tremere can effectively use TB and all > cost 7 or more. If TB cost 3 blood then practically no one would use it. How > much do you think it should cost? TB by itself does nothing, only with a 4-7 > card combo is it effective. Furthermore TB doesn't work if the victim has > equipment or retainers or one of a handfull of master cards. TB requires itself, Trap, and any other destructive combat card you care to add. The basic combo is 2 cards and any other number of cards can be added to join in the carnage. Your burning wrath example above is an unsure one, because they can still manuever to get out of range, prevent damage, etc.. As for no one using it if it cost 3, I think you would have to raise the cost to 4 for it to be appropriate to its current wording. > >Thoughts Betrayed, it is pretty much agreed, is a perfectly reasonable > >defensive card, but when used in an offensive combat deck (Tremere, > >Giovani, Euro-Brujah) it becomes an insanely powerful card > > Euro-Brujah is exactly 2 vampires, Tremere is 7, and 1 Giovanni. All costing > 7 or more. Any TB deck would have to be skill card heavy, about 6 dom and 6 > pot/tha/cel leading to hand jams. Furthermore, skill cards aren't fast, > taking many turns. No, one would only need 3 to 6 dominate skill cards (to taste) and a reasonably reliable combat deck. While I agree about the EuroBrujah not being the threat, the two other combat clans to use this card (Tremere/Giovanni) all have ample ability to use it with even 4 dominate cards. The Giovanni are especially a threat given their access to Spiritual Protector which basicly destroying opposition to their use of TB. > >-Permanent combat options (guns, flak vests, ect): Against a competent > >combat deck, these will be all but usless in the face of TB. Guns can > >easily be nullified by a single manuver card (or another gun) and a card > >that either restricts the use of equipment (Immortal Grapple, Blood Fury, > >Drawing out the Beast), prevents damage (any FOR card, Dodge+multi > >strikes, Theft of Vitae), or does away with the equipment (Shattering Blow > >or Fast Hands). The Giovani are probably the least equiped for this (they > >only have Immortal Grapple and Shattering Blow), but the Tremere and the > >Euro-Brujah (the Brujah with DOM ) are very good at nulifying permanent > >combat, and then burning you. The Flak Vest/Resplendant Protector option > >does little in this case, as how is 1 point of damage reduction going to > >save you from a Blur+Torn Signpost+Burning Wrath combo? > How many of these are really valid? A manuver doesn't nullify the gun you > still take the 1-4 pts of damage. Blood fury costs another blood to use and > you still take hand damage. Blood rage doesn't cost anything, and this also assumes the tremere haven't tasted or stolen blood. >Who has dominate and animalism? Ventrue/Gangrel deck. Gangrel to call the votes, Venrue to pass them. > Get real! Theft > can break even against a magnum. Dodge + multi strikes, again only 2 vampires > in the whole game. How many Shattering Blows or Fast Hands in the deck? 1 or > 2, and you have to be at close. Again too unrealistic. In 20 games I have > only once used Fast Hands to good effect and never seen another person do it. Strange, I have seen it used well by many (hi, Neil!). Even newbies have used it to their advantage. > >-Locations (Elisium and the Cops): Locations are very delicate, as > Generally seem pretty sturdy around here. A TB deck isn't going to have > voting dominance and they sure won't have any actions to burn locations in > there to avoid hand jams and 0 stealth is so hard to block. The delicacy comes from only one Methuselah being able to have them and contesting problems. > >-The Master Element (Frenzy, Brujah Frenzy, Rotschreck): These are a wild > >card, as they may or may not help. > That's as much as can be said about any card in any situation. > >I can't really see a TB/Guns deck be worth making. > > I could, a ventrue with a Assault Rifle and TB and Trap = auto torpor and its > only a 2 card combo, the smallest so far. A taste of vitae would make up for > all the blood lost so its a 3 card combo. Furthermore 9 Ventrue can use it. I > think TB/Guns is the best use of TB but can be countered by illegal search and > seizure. Why give it an assault rifle? Even a .44 and trap would do alot, and if the deck is built around combat, manuever shouldn't be that hard. > All in All, a TB deck is a OTP or else it isn't effective enough to care > about. A good predator will defeat the TB deck, either a voting deck or a > sneaky bleed. If you put deflection in then you can't pull off your 7 card > combo, if you put master cards in you can't pull off your 7 card combo, if you > put actions in then you can't pull off your 7 card combo. A deck would have > to be 80% combat and 20% other. Thats only 16-20 non-combat cards at the very > most and it will have some jamming problems. While I agree that a TB-based deck is a OTP, this isn't really a point that matters in this debate. Your next points, about 7 card combos are. There is no necessity for all of the "seven" cards to be in hand at one time. Any number of them make an _extremely_ effective lesser combo. In addition, since your hand is cycling, the likelihood of more of the combo coming up increases. In addition, if it is going against a S&B or voter, add Rushes/Haven's whatever, and those decks will not be able to do anything beside block with a sacrificable vampire or obedience. > A letter from Vienna would wipe out the Tremere. A few Brujah Frenzy could > stop Euro-Brujah. I doubt anyone needs help defeating the Giovanni. Oh, really? The Giovanni can be quite effective. I made a deck with DS boosters on November 29th and spent 30 minutes throwing it all together before a big game. People were afraid of its bruise&bleed. Giovanni are quite competitive. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <4ei4io$16...@tiger3.ocs.lsu.edu>, Nicole Janine Purvis <npu...@tiger.lsu.edu> wrote: >PDB6 (pd...@aol.com) wrote: >: Uh, yeah. Whatever. > >: Thoughts Betrayed, on the other hand, which is generally regarded as a >: fine card for defensive purposes (thought to be it's original intent), is >: way to powerful for what it costs when used in an offensive fashion in a >: Tremere or Pot/Dom deck (Giovanni or Euro-Brujah). Basically, an >: attacking vampire gets to pay 2 blood to vaporise his victim. The only >: vaguely reliable defenses to TB are The Elisium and Mariel, both of which >: are _very_ fragile. > >[Explanations of why Mariel, Elysium, etc. won't work against TB snipped.] > >: -Peter D Bakija > > Everyone keeps going on about TB; it is amazing. But one thing that >seems in agreement among most is that it is only a problem in the >attack-combat decks, not under defensive situations. With this in mind, >I'm surprised no one has suggested [as I do now] a house rule like this: > >Thoughts Betrayed. >Dominate 2 Blood Action Modifier [or does it say combat card? I forget] >Only usable by a vampire which has just successfully blocked a minion's >action. >Inferior: Opposing minion takes 1 point...etc. >Superior: Opposing minion may not use cards...etc. > > This would make the card still powerful from the point of view of those >who have the right cards in their hand [such as the rush/gun or >thaumaturgy decks], but can't be used to avoid being blocked; it can only >be used in a defensive sense... This would seem a decent compromise on >the card... > The Euro-brujah are of course princes and would love to used 2nd tradition, and the Tremere would still be happy with AUS to block anything that moved. -steve kertes ker...@netcom.com

In article <4enjhv$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> pd...@aol.com (PDB6) writes: >The Euro Brujah plus Anvil is 3 Brujah with Dom. Put two of each in the >deck and a couple of Dom skill cards, and you will always have a Brujah >with POT/CEL/DOM. The Giovani Gaspare (sp?) has pot/cel/dom (and +1 hand >damage). A single Dom skill and he is a TB assasin. Skill cards aren't >even needed if you come up with 4 of the perfect vamps for the deck, put >in 3 of each, and a few Effective Managements. As for the 7 Tremere, that >is half of their total vamps. Again, a couple of skill cards, and Sarah >Peach Cobbler becomes a very effective TB assasin. So a TB deck generally has 1-3 vampires in play? That doesn't seem like very many. I could see a crypt of just Donal, Constantine, Anvil, and Gaspare would guarantee with the addition of a dom card to Anvil and dom/pot/cel to Gaspare would be decent but you'd never have a vampire out on the first turn and only one vampire for the first 3-4 turns and maybe a third vampire if you were lucky. Heaven forbid someone contests your one vampire. >Where does the erroneous number of 2 vamps who can use Dodge and multi >strikes come from? Every vamp with Cel (the Brujah) can dodge and multi >strike with Acrobatics, or a Dodge and then a Blur, or any other >additional strike. I was thinking of vampires with DOM, CEL which is 2. All the comments are made in context of TB. I said who has dominate and animalism and someone said a ventrue/gangel combat voting deck. I meant what vampire has DOM, ANI. >If you are playing a TB/Pot or Cel deck, there is no reason not to have a >few Shattering Blows or Fast Hands, just for this sort of occasion. You >will always be at close range where it is effective, as the victim with >the gun only gets one manuver (unless they have a deer rifle, but then who >cares?) and any combat deck should be able to counter one manuver, and >usually more. It seems likely that if you had a deck that was designed >around the offensive use of TB, then you would find Shattering Blow/Fast >Hands of more use. If and only if your victim had equipment, otherwise welcome to hand-jam city. >The Elisium can only save one Vamp a turn. The TB deck only has one or two vampires (according to you) and they had to pay the 2 blood for TB and they are now tapped. I don't see why you can't use Elysium every turn to stop their one vampire. >The TB deck can also have their own Elisium to contest it. Or can take it >with Kine Dominance (which also uses DOM, and doubles as a bleed bonus to >encourage you to block them.) KD can be blocked and its a hand-jammng action. Yes, Elysium can be contested. >How is TB/Torn Signpost/Blur/Burning Wrath a 7 card combo? Yes, it costs >5 blood, but a few Taste of Vitae or 5th Traditions, and the attacker has >lost nothing, and the defender has had a vamp burned. Okay, its not a 7 card combo but what if the vampire isn't DOM,CEL,POT? Okay so they packed the deck with 6 Constanza and 6 Donal. Even if they did burn all of my vampires, how are they going to win with one vampire? How will they even defeat me? Bleed me for one over and over? What if I had a gun, then a flash is needed? How important was TB to that combo? Only if they have majesty or Skin of Steel did it make any difference. Oh, BTW that cost SIX blood not 5. 2 for TB, 1 for Blur, 3 for BW. With Taste it becomes a 5 card combo, is that so far from 7 (don't forget you might need Flash). >And a few WWEF could save the Tremere. Too hand-jamming. Tremere need 7 card combos. >it is kind of unsporting to say "Hey! Jack is playing tonite. Wait a >second while I just slip in these 6 Brujah Frenzies..." More or less unsporting than using TB? (in your opinion) People do it to Malks, I suppose that they would do it to other clans if they felt threatened enough. >have multiple Brujah Frenzies/Letter from Vienna in your deck, just in >case, you have a good hand full of cards that in all likelyhood will be >useless hand jammers. There are no "side-boards" in Jyhad tournies, so >anti-clan hosers are mostly unwise to try to rely on to save you. Depends on the number of players.

(That "Yeah, whatever" comment at the top of my last post was aimed at that "pansy/buttock" guy. Again, uh, whatever.) In response to Daniel Hoffman, "Euro-Brujah is exactly 2 vampires, Tremere is 7, and 1 Giovanni. All costing 7 or more. Any TB deck would have to be skill card heavy, about 6 dom and 6 pot/tha/cel leading to hand jams. Furthermore, skill cards aren't fast, taking many turns." The Euro Brujah plus Anvil is 3 Brujah with Dom. Put two of each in the deck and a couple of Dom skill cards, and you will always have a Brujah with POT/CEL/DOM. The Giovani Gaspare (sp?) has pot/cel/dom (and +1 hand damage). A single Dom skill and he is a TB assasin. Skill cards aren't even needed if you come up with 4 of the perfect vamps for the deck, put in 3 of each, and a few Effective Managements. As for the 7 Tremere, that is half of their total vamps. Again, a couple of skill cards, and Sarah Peach Cobbler becomes a very effective TB assasin. "How many of these are really valid? A manuver doesn't nullify the gun you still take the 1-4 pts of damage. Blood fury costs another blood to use and you still take hand damage. Who has dominate and animalism? Get real! Theft can break even against a magnum. Dodge + multi strikes, again only 2 vampires in the whole game. How many Shattering Blows or Fast Hands in the deck? 1 or 2, and you have to be at close. Again too unrealistic. In 20 games I have only once used Fast Hands to good effect and never seen another person do it." Actually, most of them are fairly valid. If the victim with a gun manuvers to long range with the guns manuver, they are then compelled to use it as a strike. If they are Immortal Grappled or Blood Rage/Furied, their gun does nothing, so you take no hand damage. If they have a magnum or smaller, you can also steal their blood, if Tremere, and break even. Where does the erroneous number of 2 vamps who can use Dodge and multi strikes come from? Every vamp with Cel (the Brujah) can dodge and multi strike with Acrobatics, or a Dodge and then a Blur, or any other additional strike. If you are playing a TB/Pot or Cel deck, there is no reason not to have a few Shattering Blows or Fast Hands, just for this sort of occasion. You will always be at close range where it is effective, as the victim with the gun only gets one manuver (unless they have a deer rifle, but then who cares?) and any combat deck should be able to counter one manuver, and usually more. It seems likely that if you had a deck that was designed around the offensive use of TB, then you would find Shattering Blow/Fast Hands of more use. "Generally seem pretty sturdy around here. A TB deck isn't going to have voting dominance and they sure won't have any actions to burn locations in there to avoid hand jams and 0 stealth is so hard to block." The Elisium can only save one Vamp a turn. A good combat deck can Kill multiple vamps a turn. If you keep blocking his Arson/Rampages, you quickly run out of Vamps. Many of the Brujah are good cheap voters (Anvil, Rake, Constantine, Donal), so no, they won't be amazing voters if they are a good combat deck, but the will probably have a couple of votes, and so will the guy on the other side of them, who probably isn't to fond of the Elisium either... The TB deck can also have their own Elisium to contest it. Or can take it with Kine Dominance (which also uses DOM, and doubles as a bleed bonus to encourage you to block them.) "I could, a ventrue with a Assault Rifle and TB and Trap = auto torpor and its only a 2 card combo, the smallest so far. A taste of vitae would make up for all the blood lost so its a 3 card combo. Furthermore 9 Ventrue can use it. I think TB/Guns is the best use of TB but can be countered by illegal search and seizure." Well, that is possible. Around here nobody ever uses guns, as there are too many Immortal Grapples and Blood Rage/Furies to be worth the cost, so I don't think of these things. All in all, I would rather use a Tremere Burn/Bleed deck, that either bleeds you for 5 an action or vaporizes the defending vamp with TB/Theft of Vitae/Press/Walk of Flame or something. Much more stylish, and no uncouth guns... (although probably not as effective) "If you put deflection in then you can't pull off your 7 card combo, if you put master cards in you can't pull off your 7 card combo, if you put actions in then you can't pull off your 7 card combo. A deck would have to be 80% combat and 20% other. Thats only 16-20 non-combat cards at the very most and it will have some jamming problems." How is TB/Torn Signpost/Blur/Burning Wrath a 7 card combo? Yes, it costs 5 blood, but a few Taste of Vitae or 5th Traditions, and the attacker has lost nothing, and the defender has had a vamp burned. "A letter from Vienna would wipe out the Tremere. A few Brujah Frenzy could stop Euro-Brujah. I doubt anyone needs help defeating the Giovanni" And a few WWEF could save the Tremere. Relying on Clan specific hosers to save you only works when you know what clans your friends are playing, and it is kind of unsporting to say "Hey! Jack is playing tonite. Wait a second while I just slip in these 6 Brujah Frenzies..." If you always have multiple Brujah Frenzies/Letter from Vienna in your deck, just in case, you have a good hand full of cards that in all likelyhood will be useless hand jammers. There are no "side-boards" in Jyhad tournies, so anti-clan hosers are mostly unwise to try to rely on to save you. -Peter D Bakija

In article <dhoffman.1...@cris.com>, dhof...@cris.com (Daniel Hoffman) wrote: > In article <4enjhv$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> pd...@aol.com (PDB6) writes: > >The Euro Brujah plus Anvil is 3 Brujah with Dom. Put two of each in the > >deck and a couple of Dom skill cards, and you will always have a Brujah > >with POT/CEL/DOM. The Giovani Gaspare (sp?) has pot/cel/dom (and +1 hand > >damage). A single Dom skill and he is a TB assasin. Skill cards aren't > >even needed if you come up with 4 of the perfect vamps for the deck, put > >in 3 of each, and a few Effective Managements. As for the 7 Tremere, that > >is half of their total vamps. Again, a couple of skill cards, and Sarah > >Peach Cobbler becomes a very effective TB assasin. > So a TB deck generally has 1-3 vampires in play? That doesn't seem like very > many. I could see a crypt of just Donal, Constantine, Anvil, and Gaspare > would guarantee with the addition of a dom card to Anvil and dom/pot/cel to > Gaspare would be decent but you'd never have a vampire out on the first turn > and only one vampire for the first 3-4 turns and maybe a third vampire if you > were lucky. Heaven forbid someone contests your one vampire. In this example, I agree, you would have deck contesting problems. Other decks still exist. Dominate Master Cards are useful in their own right, and throwing them in a TB deck makes them doubly so. Any vampire with dominate can be brought up to superior without the need for a crypt of huge vamps. > >Where does the erroneous number of 2 vamps who can use Dodge and multi > >strikes come from? Every vamp with Cel (the Brujah) can dodge and multi > >strike with Acrobatics, or a Dodge and then a Blur, or any other > >additional strike. > I was thinking of vampires with DOM, CEL which is 2. All the comments are > made in context of TB. I said who has dominate and animalism and someone said > a ventrue/gangel combat voting deck. I meant what vampire has DOM, ANI. One only needs DOM cel, DOM pot, DOM tha, DOM pro. A number of vampires have that. With Dominate masters, change that to dom cel, dom pot, dom tha, dom pro. After all, you do need smaller vampires (usually). > >If you are playing a TB/Pot or Cel deck, there is no reason not to have a > >few Shattering Blows or Fast Hands, just for this sort of occasion. You > >will always be at close range where it is effective, as the victim with > >the gun only gets one manuver (unless they have a deer rifle, but then who > >cares?) and any combat deck should be able to counter one manuver, and > >usually more. It seems likely that if you had a deck that was designed > >around the offensive use of TB, then you would find Shattering Blow/Fast > >Hands of more use. > If and only if your victim had equipment, otherwise welcome to hand-jam city. If they don't, you are loosing one (or possibly two) position(s) in your hand of seven (or six in the case of Bum's Rush). This is easily taken care of after a single discard phase. If your deck is "combo heavy" (as in 5+ card combos) as you seem to think it will be, a Barrens or two in the deck will help alleviate that. For older vamps, try aura reading or infernal pursuit. A Fragment also helps. But the fact is, these things won't be very necessary. All of the combat cards a TB deck would use are useful in their own right, not necessitating being together in a combo. Also, combat decks tend to play cards quite quickly, and as the cards are used, more arrive. Even should there be a 7 card combo, this is not seven cards out of seven, this is seven cards out of fourteen cards. > >The Elisium can only save one Vamp a turn. > The TB deck only has one or two vampires (according to you) and they had to > pay the 2 blood for TB and they are now tapped. I don't see why you can't use > Elysium every turn to stop their one vampire. Read the above. A TB deck need not be only 2 vamps. > >The TB deck can also have their own Elisium to contest it. Or can take it > >with Kine Dominance (which also uses DOM, and doubles as a bleed bonus to > >encourage you to block them.) > KD can be blocked and its a hand-jammng action. Yes, Elysium can be contested. But not hand jamming, because it is useful in its own right. If you have it in your hand in combat, you are playing with 6 cards for the combat, but to be truly hand jamming, you would need to have a decent percentage (7.5%+) in your deck to start causing jam. Of course KD can be blocked, forcing them to use their Elysium. Follow up with next vamp. Elysium contestment is still a big issue. When only one player can stop the combat with _their_ minion, but their means of doing so can be contested, this can be considered a fragile counter. > >How is TB/Torn Signpost/Blur/Burning Wrath a 7 card combo? Yes, it costs > >5 blood, but a few Taste of Vitae or 5th Traditions, and the attacker has > >lost nothing, and the defender has had a vamp burned. > Okay, its not a 7 card combo but what if the vampire isn't DOM,CEL,POT? Vampires close to DOM with decent to superior combat ability: 11 Stanislava, Leandro, Alexandra, Etrius, Arika, 10 Don Cruez, Lucian, Anneke, Cassandra, Ulugh, Democritus, Regina, 9 Roxanne, Marty, Andreas, Anson, Cardano, Lazarus, Helena, Natasha, Ingrid, Konstantin, Wilhelm 8 Tura Vaughn, Justine, Emerson, Constanza, Donal, Enzo, 7 Mariel, Astrid Thomas, Carlotta, Gregor, Natalia 6 Anvil, Lydia, Thomas Thorne, Stefano, 5 Didi Meyers, Zebulon, Ramiel, Merill, Sabine, Mellisa Barton, Vittorio, 4 Sarah Cobbler, Francescsa, Gloria, 3 Jing Wei Note that they come in a wide range of sizes. Size of the Combo: TB, (finish combo here) This is an at least 2 card combo, but in a combat deck, this can easily drag on to sixteen, to which the opponent cannot answer. One need only construct a combat deck that includes dominate as a possibility and throw in X dominate masters and X TBs. > Okay > so they packed the deck with 6 Constanza and 6 Donal. Even if they did burn > all of my vampires, how are they going to win with one vampire? How will they > even defeat me? Bleed me for one over and over? What if I had a gun, then a > flash is needed? How important was TB to that combo? Only if they have > majesty or Skin of Steel did it make any difference. Oh, BTW that cost SIX > blood not 5. 2 for TB, 1 for Blur, 3 for BW. With Taste it becomes a 5 card > combo, is that so far from 7 (don't forget you might need Flash). Size of the combo isn't particularly important, as any part of that combo can come up in your subsequent draws and any part of the combo is useful regardless of TB. > >And a few WWEF could save the Tremere. > Too hand-jamming. Tremere need 7 card combos. TB, Trap, Theft of Vitae, Walk of Flame. Net loss if opponent strikes for 1? (with the following extra Thefts) Round Walk Played: Loss to Opponent/Self 1 2 3 2 4/1 5/0 6/-1 7/-2 3 5/2 6/1 7/0 8/-1 4 6/3 7/2 8/1 9/0 you get the idea... For four cards (TB, Trap, Theft, Walk) one can do 11 damage (2 agg). One takes 7. This is assuming no other cards are drawn to help. What can we assume about the other minion. Everything, because nothing is going to change for their combat. All they have are their permanents. If a TB deck is unprepared to deal with a gun-carrying minion, they can not attack that minion. If attacked, they can TB or deal with the gun other ways, as appropriate. In other words, they have everything to gain and nothing to lose. > >it is kind of unsporting to say "Hey! Jack is playing tonite. Wait a > >second while I just slip in these 6 Brujah Frenzies..." > More or less unsporting than using TB? (in your opinion) People do it to > Malks, I suppose that they would do it to other clans if they felt threatened > enough. Putting them in your deck proper is one thing. Sideboarding against an opponent is unsporting except in different environments (e.g., closed deck league play). [ quoted text not captured ]

(If this shows up twice, please forgive me. I suffer from using AOsuck.) (That "Yeah, whatever" comment at the top of my last post was aimed at that "pansy/buttocked" guy. Again, uh, whatever.) In response to Daniel Hoffman, "Euro-Brujah is exactly 2 vampires, Tremere is 7, and 1 Giovanni. All costing 7 or more. Any TB deck would have to be skill card heavy, about 6 dom and 6 pot/tha/cel leading to hand jams. Furthermore, skill cards aren't fast, taking many turns." The Euro Brujah plus Anvil is 3 Brujah with Dom. Put two of each in the deck and a couple of Dom skill cards, and you will always have a Brujah with POT/CEL/DOM. The Giovani Gaspare (sp?) has pot/cel/dom (and +1 hand damage). A single Dom skill and he is a TB assasin. Skill cards aren't even needed if you come up with 4 of the perfect vamps for the deck, put in 3 of each, and a few Effective Managements. As for the 7 Tremere, that is half of their total vamps. Again, a couple of skill cards, and Sarah Peach Cobbler becomes a very effective TB assasin. "How many of these are really valid? A manuver doesn't nullify the gun you still take the 1-4 pts of damage. Blood fury costs another blood to use and you still take hand damage. Who has dominate and animalism? Get real! Theft can break even against a magnum. Dodge + multi strikes, again only 2 vampires in the whole game. How many Shattering Blows or Fast Hands in the deck? 1 or 2, and you have to be at close. Again too unrealistic. In 20 games I have only once used Fast Hands to good effect and never seen another person do it." Actually, most of them are fairly valid. If the victim with a gun manuvers to long range with the guns manuver, they are then compelled to use it as a strike. If they are Immortal Grappled or Blood Rage/Furied, their gun does nothing, so you take no hand damage. If they have a magnum or smaller, you can also steal their blood, if Tremere, and break even. Where does the erroneous number of 2 vamps who can use Dodge and multi strikes come from? Every vamp with Cel (the Brujah) can dodge and multi strike with Acrobatics, or a Dodge and then a Blur, or any other additional strike. If you are playing a TB/Pot or Cel deck, there is no reason not to have a few Shattering Blows or Fast Hands, just for this sort of occasion. You will always be at close range where it is effective, as the victim with the gun only gets one manuver (unless they have a deer rifle, but then who cares?) and any combat deck should be able to counter one manuver, and usually more. It seems likely that if you had a deck that was designed around the offensive use of TB, then you would find Shattering Blow/Fast Hands of more use. "Generally seem pretty sturdy around here. A TB deck isn't going to have voting dominance and they sure won't have any actions to burn locations in there to avoid hand jams and 0 stealth is so hard to block." The Elisium can only save one Vamp a turn. A good combat deck can Kill multiple vamps a turn. If you keep blocking his Arson/Rampages, you quickly run out of Vamps. Many of the Brujah are good cheap voters (Anvil, Rake, Constantine, Donal), so no, they won't be amazing voters if they are a good combat deck, but the will probably have a couple of votes, and so will the guy on the other side of them, who probably isn't to fond of the Elisium either... The TB deck can also have their own Elisium to contest it. Or can take it with Kine Dominance (which also uses DOM, and doubles as a bleed bonus to encourage you to block them.) "I could, a ventrue with a Assault Rifle and TB and Trap = auto torpor and its only a 2 card combo, the smallest so far. A taste of vitae would make up for all the blood lost so its a 3 card combo. Furthermore 9 Ventrue can use it. I think TB/Guns is the best use of TB but can be countered by illegal search and seizure." Well, that is possible. Around here nobody ever uses guns, as there are too many Immortal Grapples and Blood Rage/Furies to be worth the cost, so I don't think of these things. All in all, I would rather use a Tremere Burn/Bleed deck, that either bleeds you for 5 an action or vaporizes the defending vamp with TB/Theft of Vitae/Press/Walk of Flame or something. Much more stylish, and no uncouth guns... "If you put deflection in then you can't pull off your 7 card combo, if you put master cards in you can't pull off your 7 card combo, if you put actions in then you can't pull off your 7 card combo. A deck would have to be 80% combat and 20% other. Thats only 16-20 non-combat cards at the very most and it will have some jamming problems." How is TB/Torn Signpost/Blur/Burning Wrath a 7 card combo? Yes, it costs 5 blood, but a few Taste of Vitae or 5th Traditions, and the attacker has lost nothing, and the defender has had a vamp burned. "A letter from Vienna would wipe out the Tremere. A few Brujah Frenzy could stop Euro-Brujah. I doubt anyone needs help defeating the Giovanni" And a few WWEF could save the Tremere. Relying on Clan specific hosers to save you only works when you know what clans your friends are playing, and it is kind of unsporting to say "Hey! Jack is playing tonite. Wait a [ quoted text not captured ]

As the Corrupter mentioned, the greatest power of TB is that you can have any good combat deck and then throw in some TB to make it infinitely better. Most combat decks are pretty card combo intensive. The Tremere need alot of cards (get in combat, strike/damage avoidance, press, manuver, strike, ect...), the Brujah need alot of cards (get in combat, manuver, strike, aditional strike, damage avoidance, press...). Ventrue gun deck needs alot of cards (get into combat, a gun, manuver, damage prevention, ammo, press, ect...). Basically any combat deck is card intensive, as opposed to a vote deck (which basically requires a one card combo) and S+B (which requires a 2 card combo). Considering how all combat decks are card intensive anyway, how is it debilitating to add ONE extra card to the combo to make your combat power 700%(+/-) more effective? You do not need to build a deck around TB to make it effective. The Tremere can make fairly effective decks already, either a Bleed/Burn or an Intercept/Kill deck. They also have plenty of vamps with DOM. Just chuck a few TB in the deck, and every once and a while, the fairly effective Tremere deck will become ungodly powerful with only limited extra cost. Many people use the archtypical Brujah Rush deck. There is no reason not to modify it a bit by putting in Constantine or Donal or a few Dom masters and some TB. How does the deck suffer? Perhaps every once and a while you will get a vampire sucko deal and have to discard your TB's 3 or 4 times, but then you are playing the old (and very effective already) Brujah rush deck. If you DO get a good combo, your deck becomes much more effective, again at limited cost. People are currently debating the usefulness of the Tremere, so that is not needed to be done here, but I have seen the Tremere be very effective, and TB just adds to that effectiveness, in a somewhat unbalancing way. All in all, one could build an all TB-Combat deck and make it very effective, or one could just add some TB abilities to an already effective combat deck and make it even more effective, again, at a cost that is outweighed by the benefits. As for the "Clan Hoser" side line, it is very ineffective to put a bunch of clan hoser cards in your deck just in case one of them shows up, unless you know what clans are being played. If you know what clans are being played, and you put clan hosers in just to screw them, that is rather unsporting (atleast around here). Most of the clan hosers are not all that powerful, so taking up the card space just for gamble is just not worth it. For instance, Brujah Frenzy stops one Brujah action, so at best, it is going to keep you alive for 1 turn. Nosferatu Putrescence is a fairly weak card to nix a fairly weak clan. Letter from Vienna is pretty harsh, but is duplicated by the far more versatile Consenguenious Condemnation. All those cards are hardly worth the deck space considering how much of the time they will be useless. The sole exception to this is Malkavian Dementia, as there is almost always some Malkavian around (as they are such a no-brainer, usually) and it is powerful enough to justify its space useage even if it might be useless. With Malk Dementia, you can ususally kill off two vamps with that one card, if it is planned well (take control of one Malk, sneak over and diablerize another one, Blood Hunt the first.). That is far more worth the deck space in ones deck propper than Brujah Frenzy, which does little more than, say, keep one of your vamps alive for one turn (or one action...). -Peter D Bakija

On 29 Jan 1996, PDB6 wrote: > Thoughts Betrayed, on the other hand, which is generally regarded as a > fine card for defensive purposes (thought to be it's original intent), is > way to powerful for what it costs when used in an offensive fashion in a > Tremere or Pot/Dom deck (Giovanni or Euro-Brujah). Basically, an > attacking vampire gets to pay 2 blood to vaporise his victim. The only > vaguely reliable defenses to TB are The Elisium and Mariel, both of which > are _very_ fragile. Defensive purposes? I thought the purpose of TB was pretty well defined the first time I saw the card. It is way too underpowered when compared to Obedience with defense in mind. Even S:CE (especially Elisium and Mariel) have a better defense use than TB. Also, TB can't be played defensively against a TB (acting minion plays it first). I haven't even considered putting TB in my Ventrue deck. > Thoughts Betrayed, it is pretty much agreed, is a perfectly reasonable > defensive card, but when used in an offensive combat deck (Tremere, > Giovani, Euro-Brujah) it becomes an insanely powerful card. The counters > mentioned above only work to varying degrees against the offensive TB > deck. If one assumes that a deck is built as either Bruise and Bleed deck > (I go to bleed you for 5 using Govern the Unaligned, or you block me and I > kill you...) or a Rush combat deck backed up with Thoughts Betrayed, it is > a good probability that the deck will have A) Adaquate manuvers and > presses, B) A consistent way to kill you, and C) A way to avoid damage or > ignore weapons. Given all of these assumptions (which are in no way > unreasonable for a well designed combat deck), the various counters for TB > quickly fall apart: And I like the power. Personally, I was gitting sick of all the Malk S&B decks Strike: Dodge, and the vote S:CE decks. Even tho TB adds one more card I need in my hand to complete a good combat against these decks, it is one that I am willing to put in. Designing a S&B deck or a S:CE deck has always been MUCH easier than any combat deck. When you don't even have to worry about manuvers, strikes, and presses that leaves lots of room in your hand for stealth and bleed, damaging vote cards, etc. It works out fairly well, considering you need the dominate cards as well b/c most of the vamps I want to use TB with don't have sup dominate. Tremere? Well, Thomas Thorne (6) has sup dom, but not sup tha. It doesn't get much better from there. None of the new Tremere even had dom. The new Brujah did, but that's of no use, really. I find Psyche to be a much better offensive card than TB. Works real nicely on S:CE and even Form of Mist. And I think the Brujah can hold themselves in combat w/o TB. [4;31mM [34mi [35ms [36mt [0;37me [4;31mr [34mB [35mu [36mn [4;31mg [34ml [35me [--Goth Code Version 1.1--] GoJu+ T9(1,Yd) B5Bk! c7c-- P4(6,9) M+ a20 n--- b-:-- H5'7" g m-- w+ r+++ D--~% h+T(1) s10 k R- Ssy LusAZ+WA+++

On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, Daniel Hoffman wrote: > All in All, a TB deck is a OTP or else it isn't effective enough to care > about. A good predator will defeat the TB deck, either a voting deck or a > sneaky bleed. If you put deflection in then you can't pull off your 7 card > combo, if you put master cards in you can't pull off your 7 card combo, if you > put actions in then you can't pull off your 7 card combo. A deck would have > to be 80% combat and 20% other. Thats only 16-20 non-combat cards at the very > most and it will have some jamming problems. Who says it has to be a 7-card combo? Once the TB vamp is in combat, it's really enough to play a trap, hit with hands and use a Theft of Vitae now and then before using Walk Of Flame to finish it off. Regarding the other arguments, I'm not sure if TB is broken, but I do know that a card which prevents the playing of any other cards, period, is basically unfair in its spirit. Kai Poh (Munch, munch, munch, >CHOMP<, return to hand, RECYCLE! Munch, munch, munch...) Sorry, wrong game.

Hi Daniel, This was a very clear way to state an argument I've simply grown tired of stating. My congragulations on your clarity. I'm still waiting for "TB breaks the game" response, but no one seems to be willing to tackle this particular point from the TB is broken side. On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, Daniel Hoffman wrote: [Lots of TB stuff deleted] > > Euro-Brujah is exactly 2 vampires, Tremere is 7, and 1 Giovanni. All costing > 7 or more. Any TB deck would have to be skill card heavy, about 6 dom and 6 > pot/tha/cel leading to hand jams. Furthermore, skill cards aren't fast, > taking many turns. > [Lots of TB stuff cut] > > All in All, a TB deck is a OTP or else it isn't effective enough to care > about. A good predator will defeat the TB deck, either a voting deck or a > sneaky bleed. If you put deflection in then you can't pull off your 7 card > combo, if you put master cards in you can't pull off your 7 card combo, if you > put actions in then you can't pull off your 7 card combo. A deck would have > to be 80% combat and 20% other. Thats only 16-20 non-combat cards at the very > most and it will have some jamming problems. > > A letter from Vienna would wipe out the Tremere. A few Brujah Frenzy could > stop Euro-Brujah. I doubt anyone needs help defeating the Giovanni. > Typically, OTP decks work really well the first time someone shows up with them, but not the second time.... Algustas *****Oops.***** Edward Teller

Andre D. Gironda (a...@seattleu.edu) wrote: : And I think the Brujah can hold themselves in combat w/o TB. You made many good points in your post with regards to your interpretation of the intent of Thoughts Betrayed, but I have selected the above quote to illustrate one point -- the fact that that sentence explains one of the _problems_ with Thoughts Betrayed. The Brujah _can_ hold themselves in combat w/o TB. WITH the superior version (a couple of dom cards, and POOF!) they are that much scarier in combat. They didn't have much trouble beating people up before... now let's see how they do when their opponent can't maneuver, can't press, can't fight, can't prevent damage, and they can have their way with them? Permanents _will_ help those who are hit by a thoughts betrayed wielding foe, but they cost -- in actions and often in pool or blood. And if I am betrayed by an interceptor stopping me from getting that equipment I need... -James

Hi Adrian, Ah, good! Someone finally discussing TB reasonably! Thank you Corrupter! On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, The Corrupter wrote: > In articles > <dhoffman.1...@cris.com><dhoffman.1...@cris.com>, > dhof...@cris.com (Daniel Hoffman) wrote: > [Lots of TB stuff deleted] > > TB requires itself, Trap, and any other destructive combat card you care > to add. The basic combo is 2 cards and any other number of cards can be > added to join in the carnage. This is true, as long as you are willing to take the damage being dished out to your vampire round after round, and since you payed two blood before combat ever started, the damage is going to be a big problem, especially if your opponent has a big gun.... [More TB stuff deleted] > > No, one would only need 3 to 6 dominate skill cards (to taste) and a > reasonably reliable combat deck. While I agree about the EuroBrujah not > being the threat, the two other combat clans to use this card > (Tremere/Giovanni) all have ample ability to use it with even 4 dominate > cards. Agreed, 3 to 6 Dominate cards in addition to whatever you have done to build your combat deck, which means 3 to 6 potence or Thaumaturgy cards. This is probably fine, as you really don't need any other master cards. Pitty you couldn't get away with Frenzy.... > The Giovanni are especially a threat given their access to > Spiritual Protector which basicly destroying opposition to their use of TB. Um, spiritual protector is unique. Which means, if you have a Giovani in play, and you draw your spiritual protector, and you spend an action equiping with him, then one of your vampires can ignore gun damage. This doesn't seem to unbalancing to me, especially since the vampire just spent blood for spiritual protector and still has to spend two more blood before combat just to use TB, if it isn't a Big vampire it will go to torpor just from the hand damage. > > > How many of these are really valid? A manuver doesn't nullify the gun > you > > still take the 1-4 pts of damage. Blood fury costs another blood to > use and > > you still take hand damage. > > Blood rage doesn't cost anything, and this also assumes the tremere > haven't tasted or stolen blood. Blood rage only does one or two hand damage, hardly enough considering how much blood you just shelled out for TB. This leaves you with Theft of Vitae as your only viable strike, unless you use lots of taste of vitae, which is a great deal more broken, as a card, then TB is. Taste of Vitae can be overly abused by any combat deck, and isn't even on the restricted list for tournaments! [stuff about fast hands deleted] [Stuff about unique cards deleted] [Stuff about master cards deleted] > > >I can't really see a TB/Guns deck be worth making. > > > > I could, a ventrue with a Assault Rifle and TB and Trap = auto torpor > and its > > only a 2 card combo, the smallest so far. A taste of vitae would make > up for > > all the blood lost so its a 3 card combo. Furthermore 9 Ventrue can use > it. I > > think TB/Guns is the best use of TB but can be countered by illegal > search and > > seizure. This is where TB actually becomes a usefull card for combat decks, given a gun and a press (ie. trap) you can do lots of damage without spending a lot more blood. This is countered, however, by a gun of your own.... > > All in All, a TB deck is a OTP or else it isn't effective enough to > care > > about. A good predator will defeat the TB deck, either a voting deck > or a > > sneaky bleed. If you put deflection in then you can't pull off your 7 > card > > combo, if you put master cards in you can't pull off your 7 card combo, > if you > > put actions in then you can't pull off your 7 card combo. A deck would > have > > to be 80% combat and 20% other. Thats only 16-20 non-combat cards at > the very > > most and it will have some jamming problems. > > While I agree that a TB-based deck is a OTP, this isn't really a point > that matters in this debate. Your next points, about 7 card combos are. > There is no necessity for all of the "seven" cards to be in hand at one > time. Any number of them make an _extremely_ effective lesser combo. Well, I agree that you don't need a seven card combo, the smallest combo that will work is TB, Trap, and lots of theft of Vitae. It is silly to argue that TB needs lots of cards to work. The question that I haven't seen answered yet is how to use it effectively in a deck, given that it will be turn three or four before most decks will even be able to use it effectively. That's way to long for a OTP deck to start working.... Algustas *****There is always an easy solution to every human problem - neat, plausable, and wrong.***** H. L. Mencken

On 1 Feb 1996, James Puzzo wrote: > Andre D. Gironda (a...@seattleu.edu) wrote: > : And I think the Brujah can hold themselves in combat w/o TB. > You made many good points in your post with regards to your interpretation > of the intent of Thoughts Betrayed, but I have selected the above quote to > illustrate one point -- the fact that that sentence explains one of the > _problems_ with Thoughts Betrayed. The Brujah _can_ hold themselves in > combat w/o TB. WITH the superior version (a couple of dom cards, and POOF!) > they are that much scarier in combat. They didn't have much trouble > beating people up before... now let's see how they do when their opponent > can't maneuver, can't press, can't fight, can't prevent damage, and they can > have their way with them? > Permanents _will_ help those who are hit by a thoughts betrayed wielding > foe, but they cost -- in actions and often in pool or blood. And if I > am betrayed by an interceptor stopping me from getting that equipment I need... > -James Ok, here is an example (pushed to the extreme, maybe, but nonetheless) of why I think TB is needed and should be kept the way it is: I jist burned half of my locations during my untap phase b/c my opponent has a ready Arika Inner Circle. I finally have _all_ the cards I need to possibly burn her. In the past 5 turns of the game, I have been doing well dealing with the Elysium and Mariel Lady Thunder. Now that those are out of my way, I could possibly go in fer a burn. My fortune teller shows me that my opponent has a Movement of the Slow Body in her hand (or Rapid Healing, your choice). What luck. However, Constanza is feeling quite lucky (I equipped her with an Assault Rifle last turn). My opponent knows she can't take a bleed from her (Legal Manipulations + Conditioning + 2 bleed fer my opponent's ready Ventrue). My opponent declares to block with Arika. She says we will go to combat. 'What? No Obedience?' I say. 'Ran out,' she growls. So we go to combat. I manuver to long range. I declare my strike as 5R with the assault rifle. 'What's your strike?' 'I don't have one.' 'What? No Majesty? S:D?!' 'Nope.' Cool. I Blur fer two additional strikes and throw a Dragon Breath Rounds on the last one (burning my AR). 'Skin of Steel.' 'Care to press? I'm not going to.' Andre [4;31mM [34mi [35ms [36mt [0;37me [4;31mr [34mB [35mu [36mn [4;31mg [34ml [35me [Goth Code Version 2.0]: GoJu+ TJt(AnIn) B5/10Bk! cDBRw-- PSa(GSh) V++s M+D ZGo(InGn) C+2u a20= n-3 b-:-- H173 gA m-- w+! r+3 D--~% h+TAn s10 k- Rn)m( SsYy N0993WPnlw LusAZ+*1WA++*dS

>My opponent declares to block with Arika. She says we will go to >combat. 'What? No Obedience?' I say. 'Ran out,' she growls. So we go >to combat. I manuver to long range. I declare my strike as 5R with the >assault rifle. 'What's your strike?' 'I don't have one.' 'What? No >Majesty? S:D?!' 'Nope.' Cool. I Blur fer two additional strikes and >throw a Dragon Breath Rounds on the last one (burning my AR). >'Skin of Steel.' 'Care to press? I'm not going to.' They have to play the Skin of Steel after the first strike otherwise they take damage from the strike. Skin of Steel doesn't allow retroactive damage prevention. You wouldn't use Blur or DBR after SoS.

Hi James, On 1 Feb 1996, James Puzzo wrote: > Andre D. Gironda (a...@seattleu.edu) wrote: > > : And I think the Brujah can hold themselves in combat w/o TB. > > You made many good points in your post with regards to your interpretation > of the intent of Thoughts Betrayed, but I have selected the above quote to > illustrate one point -- the fact that that sentence explains one of the > _problems_ with Thoughts Betrayed. The Brujah _can_ hold themselves in > combat w/o TB. WITH the superior version (a couple of dom cards, and POOF!) > they are that much scarier in combat. They didn't have much trouble > beating people up before... now let's see how they do when their opponent > can't maneuver, can't press, can't fight, can't prevent damage, and they can > have their way with them? Actually, our experience has been that including TB in Brujah decks actually weakens them. A good Brujah combat deck will almost always send to torpor anyone they are fighting, and will fight someone every time they tap a vampire, unless you put in cards they can't use, like TB, and jam your hand.... > > Permanents _will_ help those who are hit by a thoughts betrayed wielding > foe, but they cost -- in actions and often in pool or blood. And if I > am betrayed by an interceptor stopping me from getting that equipment I need... > You are certainly correct about permanents costing, that equip action is a big deal. I had hoped that including TB in a Tremere deck would encourage our group to include more (some?) permanents, but it turned out to be unnecessary, as TB is just to slow developing as a deck design. Too bad. What Tremere really needed was a good Thaumaturgy manuver/ press card.... Algustas *****Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts.***** Bernard M. Baruch