I've just opened my bloodlines box....
and i'm a bit disappointed by some choices of the development team.
i don't want to go on a useless rant, i don't think my arguments are perfect
in any manner. I just want to know if i'm the only person thinking what i'm
thinking.
1
Split discipline cards :
Some split discipline cards should not have been splitted at all. Or should
have different effects. A lot of them have stupid or plain boring effects :
"Tap an untapped minion", "tap a younger vampire", "dodge" & "use your hand
or melee weapon at +1 damage" for the cost of one blood... Other cards do it
best (and some are disciplineless!). The idea is cool because you can cycle
them when you don't have the corresponding vampire in play, but anyway some
are so weak you don't want to include them in any deck.
2
Nagaraja ?
This clan is a total waste of time. What do they have ? nec, aus, dom. okay.
No new discipline. No new interesting clan ability. No political force. Only
3 vamps. Scarce. They have cool specials (except Raful) but those specials
cound have fit, say a harbinger or a baali. I'd rather have NO nagaraja in
the set and 3 more Blood brother , or 1 more of each True brujah and
Salubri, which have cool disciplines but only 3 vamps to make it.
I can't see how the Nagaraja can help us have new deck ideas (except in a
gio or malk bleed stealth, where you can make your prey discard her minion
taps...)
3
Card edition
Take a look at the vampire (crypt) card Nettie Hale, Ahrimane. Now i don't
understand how they managed to do such a mess, but no discipline symbol
appears to have the same size. Why ? is it a flaw in the software WW uses,
or some human mistake ? The disc' layout looks more and more sketchy. I know
it's a card "game" and no piece of art but...
It may sound like whining -and in fact it is, since it's a cool expansion
that will open new strategies for all players.
reyda
(still wishing there would be more Brothers to push the limit with =))
In message <9utcbe$ala$1...@neon.noos.net>, Reyda <re...@noos.fr> writes:
>Split discipline cards :
>Some split discipline cards should not have been splitted at all. Or should
>have different effects. A lot of them have stupid or plain boring effects :
That's half the point. You get benefit if you can pull them off, but
you can cycle them if you don't. They're not great cards used that way,
but they're not going to jam your hand as much.
--
James Coupe PGP 0x5D623D5D It's been a long road, getting from there to here
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA213D7E It's been a long time, and my time is finally near
668C3695D623D5D I will see my dream come alive at last, I will touch the sky
And they're not gonna hold me down no more, no they're not gonna change my mind
Reyda wrote:
> Split discipline cards :
> Some split discipline cards should not have been splitted at all. Or should
> have different effects. A lot of them have stupid or plain boring effects :
> "Tap an untapped minion", "tap a younger vampire", "dodge" & "use your hand
> or melee weapon at +1 damage" for the cost of one blood... Other cards do it
> best (and some are disciplineless!). The idea is cool because you can cycle
> them when you don't have the corresponding vampire in play, but anyway some
> are so weak you don't want to include them in any deck.
They're intended that way, I believe. The functions that work for the new
disciplines should be very useful because it's a disadvantage to put out a
new-discipline-using vampire, so you need to do powerful things with such
vampires. However, the functions that work for existing disciplines should
*less* powerful than existing cards, not as powerful or more powerful. And
yes, that includes being less powerful than disciplines cards. Otherwise,
why would you ever use the older cards? The poor utility of the new cards
with old disciplines is the price you pay their versatility. At least you
can use them for _something_ in a pinch and not make them jam your hand.
> (still wishing there would be more Brothers to push the limit with =))
Right off hand, I'm kind of annoyed they bothered with the Blood Brothers
"circle" thing. I wonder if it's going to be hard enough using Blood
Brothers effectively without having them show up in multiple circles.
I'll withhold judgment until I actually try building and playing a BB
deck. But I've seen this kind of thing in game design before: creating a
rule that sounds good (in this case, perhaps supporting an RPG rule?) and
fun and everything but in practice only gets in the way.
Fred
Redya wrote;
>>Split discipline cards :
Some split discipline cards should not have been splitted at all. Or should
have different effects. A lot of them have stupid or plain boring effects :
"Tap an untapped minion", "tap a younger vampire", "dodge" & "use your hand
or melee weapon at +1 damage" for the cost of one blood... Other cards do it
best (and some are disciplineless!). The idea is cool because you can cycle
them when you don't have the corresponding vampire in play, but anyway some
are so weak you don't want to include them in any deck.>>
I think that the three level discipline cards (the ones like Renewed Vigor,
Sense the Sin, and Speak with Spirits) are very well designed, perfectly
playable, and a very cool addition to the set. Yeah, the original discipline
version of most of these cards are not as powerful as similar non mixed
discipline cards (compare the aus power of Sense the Sin to, say, any other
auspex intercept card or the pot power of Vengance of Samiel to Undead
Strength), which is good, as you are trading versatility for power, which is a
Good Thing. You mix in an appropriate bloodline clan into your deck and add
some mixed discipline cards--if you have (or are acting with) the appropriate
vampire, you can use the powerful versionof the card. If not, you can use the
slightly weaker version. This makes your deck flexible, gives it versatiltiy,
and above all, makes including some bloodlines vampires *much* more viable.
>>Nagaraja ?
This clan is a total waste of time. What do they have ? nec, aus, dom. okay.
No new discipline. No new interesting clan ability. No political force. Only
3 vamps. Scarce. They have cool specials (except Raful) but those specials
cound have fit, say a harbinger or a baali. I'd rather have NO nagaraja in
the set and 3 more Blood brother , or 1 more of each True brujah and
Salubri, which have cool disciplines but only 3 vamps to make it.
I can't see how the Nagaraja can help us have new deck ideas (except in a
gio or malk bleed stealth, where you can make your prey discard her minion
taps...)>>
The same could be said for most of the bloodlines--why single out these guys?
They only take up three vamp slots and *someone* is going to want to use them.
If nothing else, they help flesh out the Giovanni.
We opened up a box last night, and were pleased with the set in general. The
new vampires and cards are pretty cool, the multi discipline cards are well
designed and effective looking (everyone is rather fond of Nose of the Hound;
Renewed Vigor, the common 5th Tradition; and that Potence/Someting Else card
that at pot gives you +2 strength for the round. Heh heh. More stackable hand
damage :-). The art is good and the graphic design is solid.
One of my immediate favorite cards of the few I own so far is Create Gargoyle.
A) they are totally cute and 2) they make Rastifarian Ghoul completely
unecessary in a Cryptic Mission deck.
>>(still wishing there would be more Brothers to push the limit with =))>>
10 isn't enough?
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
http://www.geocities.com/bakija6
"...and the only person I can stand to be around
is a neutered vampire who cheats at kitten poker!"
-Buffy
>1
>Split discipline cards :
>Some split discipline cards should not have been splitted at all. Or should
>have different effects. A lot of them have stupid or plain boring effects :
>"Tap an untapped minion", "tap a younger vampire", "dodge" & "use your hand
>or melee weapon at +1 damage" for the cost of one blood... Other cards do it
>best (and some are disciplineless!). The idea is cool because you can cycle
>them when you don't have the corresponding vampire in play, but anyway some
>are so weak you don't want to include them in any deck.
The general rule seems to be for the common discipline versions, aka the top
versions, aka the most inferior (we need a good name for these versions):
0 blood cost - decent
1 blood cost - marginal
2 blood cost - ridiculously underpowered
"He's a ... he's a reverse vampire. They ... they crave the Sun."
cur...@aol.com (Curevei) wrote in
news:20011208163616...@mb-cf.aol.com:
[ quoted text not captured ]
Not quite.
I played a Ventrue & Samedi bruise & bleed deck today (Ventrue do the
bleeding, Samedi do the bruising, preferably with a Hidden Lurker).
I was using Compress to send oposing minions to torpor with THN, but the
pot effect (strength+2 strike for 2 blood) came in usefull when some
Tzimisce blocked Emerson Bridges and I didn't have the HL in hand... it
has the same effect as a Pushing the Limit, only for one extra blood.
Likewise, I used a few Putrefactions for the pre S:CE.
The versatility (sp?) makes up for the added cost.
BTW, just to check I was using it right: if I hit someone with Withering
(sup), by the time he gets to the prevent step the card has already
resolved, so he can't use any discipline cards to prevent it, right?
Flux
In message <20011208163616...@mb-cf.aol.com>, Curevei
<cur...@aol.com> writes:
>The general rule seems to be for the common discipline versions, aka the top
>versions, aka the most inferior (we need a good name for these versions):
Split top, middle and bottom?
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <20011208160004...@mb-bg.aol.com>, Peter D Bakija
<pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> writes:
>>>Nagaraja ?>This clan is a total waste of time. What do they have ? nec, aus, dom. okay.
>No new discipline. No new interesting clan ability. No political force. Only
>3 vamps. Scarce. They have cool specials (except Raful) but those specials
>cound have fit, say a harbinger or a baali. I'd rather have NO nagaraja in
>the set and 3 more Blood brother , or 1 more of each True brujah and
>Salubri, which have cool disciplines but only 3 vamps to make it.
>I can't see how the Nagaraja can help us have new deck ideas (except in a
>gio or malk bleed stealth, where you can make your prey discard her minion
>taps...)>>
>
>The same could be said for most of the bloodlines--why single out these guys?
I believe the point is - everyone else who is scarce/whatever can do
cool new stuff, whereas the Nagaraja can't.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <Xns9171E7D63A...@130.133.1.4>,
Flux <fl...@netc.pt> mumbled something about:
>BTW, just to check I was using it right: if I hit someone with Withering
>(sup), by the time he gets to the prevent step the card has already
>resolved, so he can't use any discipline cards to prevent it, right?
Spot on. He also can't press, Blur, or ... you get the idea.
Assuming he doesn't get out of the way of the Withering via a Dodge or
S:CE, his strike card (if any) will be the last discipline card he plays
until your next untap.
--
Derek
...Vampire Squirrel has come to bite your nuts!
James wrote:
>>I believe the point is - everyone else who is scarce/whatever can do
cool new stuff, whereas the Nagaraja can't.>>
Well, sure, but again, they are a total of 3 cards in the set (and maybe a clan
specific card or two)--they aren't *real* exciting or anything, but they are
three more vampires that share two of the three Giovanni disciplines, and
probably fit in with some other clans as well.
If there were, like, 10 different Nagaraja vampires, then sure, I'd probably
think they were a bad idea, but they are such a minimal part of the set, it
strikes me as not really worth thinking about whether they are useless or not.
[ quoted text not captured ]
I wrote:
>>Well, sure, but again, they are a total of 3 cards in the set (and maybe a
clan
specific card or two)--they aren't *real* exciting or anything, but they are
three more vampires that share two of the three Giovanni disciplines, and
probably fit in with some other clans as well.>>
I just went and looked up the Naharaja on the Monger site, and man, those three
are really good! Who cares if they open up new an exciting strategy
opportunities or not? They are very solid, mid range vampires with good special
abilities:
-The 5 point guy with aus, dom, NEC who can take an action to burn a card in
someone's hand *easily* fits in a Giovani deck (or some Malk or Tremere decks),
providing a useful special ability.
-The 6 point guy with AUS, dom, nec, obf goes in many Malkavian decks (and some
Tremere decks), and has always useful +1 stealth built in.
-The 7 point guy with AUS, DOM, NEC, pro who fits in many Giovanni, Malk, and
Tremere decks and has a *really* good special ability.
Do the Naharaja provide new strategic angles? No, but they certainly add to
existing strategies quite well. The question is not "why did they include
vampires like the Naharaja in the set?". The real question is "Why didn't they
include *more* vampires like the Naharaja in the set?"
They are solid, efficient, mid range vampires that work well with existing
strategies, which is always a good thing.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <20011208194848...@mb-cq.aol.com>, Peter D Bakija
<pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> writes:
>James wrote:>>>I believe the point is - everyone else who is scarce/whatever can do>cool new stuff, whereas the Nagaraja can't.>>
>
>Well, sure, but again, they are a total of 3 cards in the set (and maybe a clan
>specific card or two)--they aren't *real* exciting or anything, but they are
>three more vampires that share two of the three Giovanni disciplines, and
>probably fit in with some other clans as well.
Auspex and Dominate... Nah, can't think of anyone that'd help.
Raful and Le Dinh should both cross-over extremely well. Kanimana is a
little too big, perhaps, but probably right for a number of decks.
>If there were, like, 10 different Nagaraja vampires, then sure, I'd probably
>think they were a bad idea, but they are such a minimal part of the set, it
>strikes me as not really worth thinking about whether they are useless or not.
In that the questions of "What could have been included if they
weren't?" are likely fruitless, sure. With a variable commonality
system, such as the one we have, something could have been juggled
between rarities to include something else.
As a lead in to discussion about how useful they could be, in the right
circumstances, it seems a useful avenue to explore.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Derek Ray wrote:
> Flux <fl...@netc.pt> mumbled something about:
>
> >BTW, just to check I was using it right: if I hit someone with Withering
> >(sup), by the time he gets to the prevent step the card has already
> >resolved, so he can't use any discipline cards to prevent it, right?
>
> Spot on. He also can't press, Blur, or ... you get the idea.
>
> Assuming he doesn't get out of the way of the Withering via a Dodge or
> S:CE, his strike card (if any) will be the last discipline card he plays
> until your next untap.
Well, he could squeeze in a Claws or a Primal Instincts or other
post-strike pre-resolution card, but basically correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
> Do the Naharaja provide new strategic angles? No, but they certainly add
to
> existing strategies quite well. The question is not "why did they include
> vampires like the Naharaja in the set?". The real question is "Why didn't
they
> include *more* vampires like the Naharaja in the set?"
>
> They are solid, efficient, mid range vampires that work well with existing
> strategies, which is always a good thing.
I'm thinking that they'd be good in a Malk deck, NEC could be very handy and
their Malk buddies can cloak to give them stealth on top of CotHD. I don't
see AUS/DOM/NEC going into Giovanni very well except to maybe give them the
option to block and S:CE.
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:s0c51u4kj8vic9j34...@4ax.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Which is why I love withering, it's a dirty, dirty card :)
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:s0c51u4kj8vic9j34...@4ax.com:
[ quoted text not captured ]
I did mention that I was using Hidden Lurker, didn't I? ;-)
(and Trap too)
Flux
"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in
news:u15jh3...@news.supernews.com:
> "Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:s0c51u4kj8vic9j34...@4ax.com...>> Assuming he doesn't get out of the way of the Withering via a Dodge or
>> S:CE, his strike card (if any) will be the last discipline card he
>> plays until your next untap.>
> Which is why I love withering, it's a dirty, dirty card :)
Not has dirty has having Gisela come back out of torpor some 6 times
because Blanche Hill kept making Renewed Vigors to fill her back up... :-(
(for free too, since she would hunt-untap before to pay for it)
Flux
In message <Xns9172757CDA...@130.133.1.4>,
Flux <fl...@netc.pt> mumbled something about:
>Not has dirty has having Gisela come back out of torpor some 6 times>because Blanche Hill kept making Renewed Vigors to fill her back up... :-(
>(for free too, since she would hunt-untap before to pay for it)
Heh, that was my prerelease story too -- playing a toolkit in the rounds
with 3 Samedi and 2 Salubri in the crypt, 20 Thanatosis cards, and like
8 Obeah cards. Round 2, I get George Frederick and Blanche Hill out,
and George makes an Embrace who eventually gets the Sargon Fragment
while Watenda came out and got Mr. Winky and a Sniper Rifle. Blanche
ended up playing six Renewed Vigors in that game (under the Creepshow
Casino, of course) on George, who was tossing all those expensive THN
cards out left and right :)
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <Xns9172745BA7...@130.133.1.4>,
Flux <fl...@netc.pt> mumbled something about:
>Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>news:s0c51u4kj8vic9j34...@4ax.com:
>>> Assuming he doesn't get out of the way of the Withering via a Dodge or
>> S:CE, his strike card (if any) will be the last discipline card he plays
>> until your next untap.>
>I did mention that I was using Hidden Lurker, didn't I? ;-)
>(and Trap too)
Why use Trap? Hidden Lurker's superior is a press. =)
Round 1: HL, Withering, press from HL.
Round 2: Compress *splat*
[ quoted text not captured ]
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:te371u80j22e264nq...@4ax.com:
[ quoted text not captured ]
This is how combat turned out a few times, but the Traps were usefull for
when I didn't want to pay the 2 blood for the Compress. And not everyone
has superior OBF (though I did get Jorge de la Muerte in my initial crypt
that time).
Anyway, it's fun laying down a GtU with Jan and hearing everyone say 'Look
out for Morty!'. :-)
Flux
In message <Xns9172BE4473...@130.133.1.4>,
Flux <fl...@netc.pt> mumbled something about:
>Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in>news:te371u80j22e264nq...@4ax.com:>>> Why use Trap? Hidden Lurker's superior is a press. =)
>>
>> Round 1: HL, Withering, press from HL.
>> Round 2: Compress *splat*>
>This is how combat turned out a few times, but the Traps were usefull for
>when I didn't want to pay the 2 blood for the Compress. And not everyone
>has superior OBF (though I did get Jorge de la Muerte in my initial crypt
>that time).
Heh. Well, you can always just chuck out the Compress on round 1, if
you only have inferior OBF.
But I think dropping Withering or Putrefaction first is probably a lot
more entertaining, overall -- definitely Putrefaction, which keeps
someone wedged up until they "lose" a turn.
>Anyway, it's fun laying down a GtU with Jan and hearing everyone say 'Look
>out for Morty!'. :-)
(whistles quietly) Artemis, Anatole, and Theron all have OBF/for/DEM...
I can see a Dementation bleed deck making good use of the Samedi as
'enforcers'.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:pah71uk3h7bs717tf...@4ax.com:
> In message <Xns9172BE4473...@130.133.1.4>,
> Flux <fl...@netc.pt> mumbled something about:
>>>Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>news:te371u80j22e264nq...@4ax.com:
>>>>> Why use Trap? Hidden Lurker's superior is a press. =)
>>>
>>> Round 1: HL, Withering, press from HL.
>>> Round 2: Compress *splat*>>
>>This is how combat turned out a few times, but the Traps were usefull
>>for when I didn't want to pay the 2 blood for the Compress. And not
>>everyone has superior OBF (though I did get Jorge de la Muerte in my
>>initial crypt that time).>
> Heh. Well, you can always just chuck out the Compress on round 1, if
> you only have inferior OBF.
>
> But I think dropping Withering or Putrefaction first is probably a lot
> more entertaining, overall -- definitely Putrefaction, which keeps
> someone wedged up until they "lose" a turn.
I think I ended up only using one Putrefaction the whole game (not
counting the ones I used for the S:CE - and I got through my whole
library, I managed to oust the last player with only 3 cards in hand).
On my prey I'd always rather play Withering and/or Compress, and my
predator never blocked my actions so I could never get him with the HL.
>>Anyway, it's fun laying down a GtU with Jan and hearing everyone say
>>'Look out for Morty!'. :-)>
> (whistles quietly) Artemis, Anatole, and Theron all have
> OBF/for/DEM... I can see a Dementation bleed deck making good use of
> the Samedi as 'enforcers'.
But with DEM you don't even need the Samedi, you can just use HL-Coma. :-/
Flux
> Nagaraja ?
> This clan is a total waste of time. What do they have ? nec, aus, dom. okay.
> No new discipline. No new interesting clan ability. No political force. Only
> 3 vamps. Scarce. They have cool specials (except Raful) but those specials
> cound have fit, say a harbinger or a baali. I'd rather have NO nagaraja in
> the set and 3 more Blood brother , or 1 more of each True brujah and
> Salubri, which have cool disciplines but only 3 vamps to make it.
> I can't see how the Nagaraja can help us have new deck ideas (except in a
> gio or malk bleed stealth, where you can make your prey discard her minion
> taps...)
No new discipline:
Harbingers of Skulls - aus, nec, fortitude
No political force:
How about the ability to play (auspex) intercept cards to prevent the
political action? This is limited to pred/prey without eagle's sight, but
other players (in general) seem to limit the damage to others outside of
their immediate threats. Kindred Coercion? Pulling Strings?
Only three vamps. Scarce:
Same as the Salubri and Trujah. The most expensive Nagaraja is the
cheapest Trujah.
Cool specials:
Despite Bonding and Necromancy stealth, being able to generate 1
additional stealth can come in very handy (Raful). The other two specials
are some of the most powerful I've seen.
More Blood Brothers? They already have the most vamps of any bloodline and
are probably the only bloodline that can have its own deck.
Nagaraja can add major intercept to the Giovanni...
Card retrieval to the Malks, Tremere, !Tremere and !Ventrue. I can
retrieve those low numbers of freak drives I have. They add more bleed
bounce and bleed potential to the Haribingers.
I'd like to see more of them!
Maybe in Bloodlines: The Sequel
>
>I just went and looked up the Naharaja on the Monger site, and man, those
>three
>are really good! Who cares if they open up new an exciting strategy
>opportunities or not? They are very solid, mid range vampires with good
>special
>abilities:
>
>-The 5 point guy with aus, dom, NEC who can take an action to burn a card in
>someone's hand *easily* fits in a Giovani deck (or some Malk or Tremere
>decks),
>providing a useful special ability.
>
>-The 6 point guy with AUS, dom, nec, obf goes in many Malkavian decks (and
>some
>Tremere decks), and has always useful +1 stealth built in.
>
>-The 7 point guy with AUS, DOM, NEC, pro who fits in many Giovanni, Malk, and
>Tremere decks and has a *really* good special ability.
>
>Do the Naharaja provide new strategic angles? No, but they certainly add to
>existing strategies quite well. The question is not "why did they include
>vampires like the Naharaja in the set?". The real question is "Why didn't
>they
>include *more* vampires like the Naharaja in the set?"
>
>They are solid, efficient, mid range vampires that work well with existing
>strategies, which is always a good thing.
I'm only dissapointed that the Nagaraja didn't get a clan card of thier
own to make them more distinctive. Maybe something to reflect that
they are eaters of the dead? An action card that let them eat allies/retainers
from any players ash heap (to gain blood) would have been way cool.
Bernie
>
>Peter D Bakija
>PD...@aol.com
> Nagaraja ?
> This clan is a total waste of time. What do they have ? nec, aus, dom. okay.
> No new discipline. No new interesting clan ability. No political force. Only
> 3 vamps. Scarce. They have cool specials (except Raful) but those specials
> cound have fit, say a harbinger or a baali. I'd rather have NO nagaraja in
> the set and 3 more Blood brother , or 1 more of each True brujah and
> Salubri, which have cool disciplines but only 3 vamps to make it.
> I can't see how the Nagaraja can help us have new deck ideas (except in a
> gio or malk bleed stealth, where you can make your prey discard her minion
> taps...)
>
The only thing that confused me about the Nagaraja and the Harbingers
of Skulls is this. It seems that there have been great leaps in
making V:TES coincide with Vampire: the Masquerade which I think it
stupendous, wonderful, fabulous, etc., etc. Now, in the Masquerade,
both the Nagaraja and Harbingers have Necromancy (which is fine so
far) but each bloodline has it's own distict Path of Necromancy that
it specializes in. Why were no cards included that reflect their new
paths?
> The only thing that confused me about the Nagaraja and the Harbingers
> of Skulls is this. It seems that there have been great leaps in
> making V:TES coincide with Vampire: the Masquerade which I think it
> stupendous, wonderful, fabulous, etc., etc. Now, in the Masquerade,
> both the Nagaraja and Harbingers have Necromancy (which is fine so
> far) but each bloodline has it's own distict Path of Necromancy that
> it specializes in. Why were no cards included that reflect their new
> paths?
I've been ranting about much the same thing for the past week.
Between the Mortuus Path and Nihilistics, they have access to ten
potential new Necromancy cards -- yet we don't see any of them in
Bloodlines. In fact, one of the more common disciplines in the set
(Necromancy) gets NO new cards at all, while a discipline that needed
no further support, and was already a very strong one (animalism) got
a plethora of new cards.
Why this lopsided balance?
Fanboy
"The Fanboy" <texas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f99d61c5.01121...@posting.google.com...
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I agree with you there. Necro got a good boost in FN but it still has
relatively few generally useful cards. Necro really should have gotten a few
cards considering so many vamps in the new set have it.
In message <u1boou7...@news.supernews.com>, GreySeer
<e...@i.think.not> writes:
>I agree with you there. Necro got a good boost in FN but it still has
>relatively few generally useful cards.
What do you mean by "generally useful"?
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> I agree with you there. Necro got a good boost in FN but it still has
> relatively few generally useful cards.
*boggle* Sure, it doesn't provide maneuvers or presses, but it gives
you intercept, stealth, unblockability, and Combat Ends. What do you expect
Necromancy to do? Prevent damage? Wait, it does that, too, with Ex Nihilo.
> Necro really should have gotten a few
> cards considering so many vamps in the new set have it.
Except that Necromancy just GOT a boost in Final Nights, with some of
it's most powerful cards: Shambling Hordes, Daemonic Possession, and (of
course) Call of the Hungry Dead.
Necromancy DID get a boost, BECAUSE so many vamps in Bloodlines have it.
Having more discipline combos possible with Necromancy extends its use all
by itself. If anything, Chimerstry should have gotten new cards in
Bloodlines, since it got probably the weakest boost in FN.
Oh, wait again. Nightmare curse, that lets Tsigane glue anyone to the
floor unless they pay pool.
Man, these designers are clever, aren't they? =)
--
Pat Ricochet
Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta
"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:q0K+mECD...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
> In message <u1boou7...@news.supernews.com>, GreySeer
> <e...@i.think.not> writes:
> >I agree with you there. Necro got a good boost in FN but it still has
> >relatively few generally useful cards.
>
> What do you mean by "generally useful"?
It seems to lack cards that you can just put in any deck, every time I think
Necro it's always the main focus of the deck, or the deck is focused around
a particular Necro card ( but doesn't necessearily contain a lot of Necro
cards ). I guess I should have said general purpose maybe. Necromancy only
has two combat cards ( ok, Auspex doesn't have many either but some of the
intercept cards affect the resulting combat ) and one of those isn't even
useable in the first round. I might be bit biased though, as neither Nec or
Dom fit very well with Pot so your combat is very limited when it comes to
Giovanni.
"Pat Ricochet" <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> wrote in message
news:B83BDD38.9C3D%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu...
> > I agree with you there. Necro got a good boost in FN but it still has
> > relatively few generally useful cards.
>
> *boggle* Sure, it doesn't provide maneuvers or presses, but it gives
> you intercept, stealth, unblockability, and Combat Ends. What do you
expect
> Necromancy to do? Prevent damage? Wait, it does that, too, with Ex
Nihilo.
I'd like to see it being able to do a bit more, esp in combat. I mean,
Dominate got a god-damn dodge! It has no bleed cards at all. There's too
many "dud" cards or at least cards with very limited use. It feels to me
like a support discipline, not a discipline you can really build a deck
around.
> > Necro really should have gotten a few
> > cards considering so many vamps in the new set have it.
>
> Except that Necromancy just GOT a boost in Final Nights, with some of
> it's most powerful cards: Shambling Hordes, Daemonic Possession, and (of
> course) Call of the Hungry Dead.
Yeah, it went from being pretty shite to actually useable I still don't feel
it's inline with most of the other disciplines. Necro though still has some
of the better and more interesting actions available to it.
> Necromancy DID get a boost, BECAUSE so many vamps in Bloodlines have
it.
> Having more discipline combos possible with Necromancy extends its use all
> by itself. If anything, Chimerstry should have gotten new cards in
> Bloodlines, since it got probably the weakest boost in FN.
> Oh, wait again. Nightmare curse, that lets Tsigane glue anyone to the
> floor unless they pay pool.
>
> Man, these designers are clever, aren't they? =)
Chimerstry was good before FN. It has prevention, bleed, intercept and
interesting actions It's main disad was the cost of the cards, before FN
every CHI card cost blood.
In message <u1di8ee...@news.supernews.com>, GreySeer
<e...@i.think.not> writes:
>> >I agree with you there. Necro got a good boost in FN but it still has
>> >relatively few generally useful cards.
>>
>> What do you mean by "generally useful"?>
>It seems to lack cards that you can just put in any deck, every time I think
>Necro it's always the main focus of the deck, or the deck is focused around
>a particular Necro card ( but doesn't necessearily contain a lot of Necro
>cards ).
For a 'stealth' and bleed deck, you have the Path of Bone (not
Necromancy, but you know what I mean), Spectral Divination, Call of the
Hungry Dead for direct usage. Spiritual Intervention provides useful
combat defence (for days when you don't want to go on the offensive),
along with Ex Nihilo for distracting vampires.
Bruise decks (both bruise and bleed and general purpose combat) have
Daemonic Possession, along with Torment the Soul (difficult, but a
potentially useful source of cheap aggravated damage, aside from the
obvious Potence Burning Wrath).
Haunt provides useful location defence for any deck that's using a few
locations - The Barrens, The Mausoleum, Powerbase: Rome, Tower of London
(and you can even get the pool with the Haunt action...) are all
potentially useful locations that a Giovanni/Necromancy deck may be
packing.
Summon Soul and Whispers from the Dead are both extremely useful cards
for a number of decks. Drop them into the rest of the deck and have
another go at getting whatever you need.
Masquer provides generic intercept. In tandem with Spectral Divination,
that's +2 intercept. (And you get the Tower of London bonus again.)
Grasp the Ghostly is a metagame specific card, since it relies on other
people.
Of course, there are a few cards which need to be used in fairly large
doses - Shroud Mastery, say, along with some allies - and some cards
that *can* be used in fairly large amounts. But you don't have to play
like that, if you don't want to.
>I guess I should have said general purpose maybe. Necromancy only
>has two combat cards ( ok, Auspex doesn't have many either but some of the
>intercept cards affect the resulting combat ) and one of those isn't even
>useable in the first round.
Sure, though this does follow up the fact that both the Samedi and
Giovanni are likely to be able to do reasonably well in combat on their
own terms.
You're also ignoring Ex Nihilo which is a useful "combat" card without
being a combat card.
No discipline should be able to do everything. For instance, it's
notable that by the "Necromancy only has two combat cards" method, we
can note that Presence only has three. (Three extremely useful ones, of
course.) And Dominate - prior to Bloodlines - only had one! Absorb the
Mind and Denial of Aphrodite's Favour count kind of.
> I might be bit biased though, as neither Nec or
>Dom fit very well with Pot so your combat is very limited when it comes to
>Giovanni.
It's a case of focus. Will Dom/Nec give you the most focused powerful
combat deck in the world? No, it's very, very unlikely. So play to its
strengths, not to its weakness.
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