[LSJ] Third Tradition vs Create Gargoyle wording.

Hi! Just wanted to check something that came up during a game a few nights ago. The Third Tradition: Progeny (along with Trophy: Progeny and Creation Rites) says that you may search your "library (shuffle afterward), ash heap OR hand" (my emphasis) while Create Gargoyle uses the wording "hand, library AND ash heap" (my emphasis again). Is there any difference between those two? It might not matter that often but in case someone who played a Third Tradition: Progeny started with searching xer library and didn't find any discipline card, would xe be allowed to take one from xer hand or ash heap afterwards? With the current card text it's a bit unclear to us, since the "or" could mean that you have to chose before searching. Create Gargoyle Type: Action Requires: non-sterile Tremere/Tremere antitribu Cost: 2 pool +1 stealth action. Requires a non-sterile vampire. Put this card into play. This card represents a 2-capacity, non- unique, slave Gargoyle (enslaved to the acting vampire's clan) with basic Visceratika [vis] and flight [FLIGHT]. You may go through your hand, library and ash heap to find a master: Discipline card and place it on this Gargoyle. Move up to 3 blood from the acting vampire to this Gargoyle. This Gargoyle is the same sect as the acting vampire. This Gargoyle cannot act this turn. Third Tradition: Progeny Type: Action Requires: prince,justicar,non-sterile Cost: 1 blood +1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-Sterile prince or justicar. Put this card in play; it becomes a non-unique 1-capacity vampire of the same clan as the acting vampire. You may go through your library (shuffle afterward), ash heap or hand to find a Discipline card for this vampire. Move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. This vampire cannot take any actions this turn.

[ quoted text not captured ] I don't know if there is. If there is my only guess would be that with the gargoyle card, you may search everything and find the card you want. But with the progeny you have to choose. If you choose your library, but you don't have any masters there, then it's too late to take from Ashheap.

In message <cfe2f368-649b-4f9e...@k41g2000yqn.googlegroup s.com>, Baaliprimogen <Vegar...@gmail.com> writes: >I don't know if there is. If there is my only guess would be that with >the gargoyle card, you may search everything and find the card you >want. But with the progeny you have to choose. If you choose your >library, but you don't have any masters there, then it's too late to >take from Ashheap. However, because the ash heap is a matter of public record and you can always look at your own hand, you could look through both of those anyway, without any enabling text. Since you should know how many discipline cards there are in your deck for a deck using breeders, you'd then know what's where. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

On Dec 7, 11:06 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > However, because the ash heap is a matter of public record and you can > always look at your own hand, you could look through both of those > anyway, without any enabling text. Since you should know how many > discipline cards there are in your deck for a deck using breeders, you'd > then know what's where. Yeah, I know that you can look through your hand and ash heap before playing the card/s (or after succeeding with the action but before searching through your library, I suppose). But the question still stands about whether the wording on Create Gargoyle and Third Tradition: Progeny is intentionally different (regarding the searching) or if it's just a "mishap". We can pretend that someone forgot if xe put 6 or 7 discipline masters in the deck since stuff like that happens sometimes, especially during casual games when trying new decks. After playing a Third Tradition: Progeny, would it be legal for xem to go through the library first, and afterwards pick a discipline card from xer ash heap? We've always played as if the cards had said "and", without really thinking more about it. But as it came up during a game I thought I'd might as well get it checked.

www.h...@gmail.com wrote: > Hi! > > Just wanted to check something that came up during a game a few nights > ago. > The Third Tradition: Progeny (along with Trophy: Progeny and Creation > Rites) says that you may search your "library (shuffle afterward), ash > heap OR hand" (my emphasis) while Create Gargoyle uses the wording > "hand, library AND ash heap" (my emphasis again). > > Is there any difference between those two? No.