I don't think too many proposed cards make it into the game, but I
would like to campaign for a type of card that I think the game would
benefit from, and of course open a discussion as to whether people
would use cards of this type (or if they would be over-powered).
Currently, combat cards that continue the action are all of the type
to end combat as a strike. This is certainly useful for the avoiding-
combat stealthy deck, but do combat decks deserve a way to continue
the action without replacing their useful payload (the strike) with a
S:CE? What about a card for a combat discipline (or 2) that allows the
vampire to be effective in combat and thus earn the right to continue
the action because they kicked butt so quickly, the block was
ineffective. This has the potential to allow combat decks to fight
more (d attack, get blocked, fight, continue, fight again), which is
useful for them, but is it too much? Bruise/bleed and bruise/vote
could certainly benefit, but again, is it unbalanced if they could?
For those who want a more illustrative example, I would throw out this
proposed card which would fall into the category I'm trying to
illustrate:
Powering Through
Action Modifier: [pot & cel] Only usable when the action is announced.
If this vampire is blocked and in the resulting combat burns and/or
sends the blocking minion to torpor before the first round of combat
has ended, the acting minion can burn a blood to end combat
immediately and if this minion is still ready, the action continues as
if unblocked. [POT & CEL] As above and this minion has +1 strength for
the remainder of this action.
Of course if the continued action is a d-attack, we're getting good
mileage out of the +1 strength. Another useful idea might be one that
allows you to continue the action if your opponent plays S:CE. "Sorry,
you didn't stick around long enough to effectively block me"
Thoughts?
CJay
On May 12, 3:23 pm, "crobert" wrote:
> Powering Through> Action Modifier: [pot & cel] Only usable when the action is announced.
> If this vampire is blocked and in the resulting combat burns and/or
> sends the blocking minion to torpor before the first round of combat
> has ended, the acting minion can burn a blood to end combat
> immediately and if this minion is still ready, the action continues as
> if unblocked. [POT & CEL] As above and this minion has +1 strength for
> the remainder of this action.
Why "end combat immediately" redundantly? Your text needs to be
cleaned up.
The option to do as you suggest is already in the game, and
exemplified by some of Norman Brown's decks.
In the block combat, do damage with the initial strike, gain an
additional strike, and play a combat ends/action continues card as the
additional strike, then play Disarm/Pulled Fangs as the combat is
ending.
+X strength minion + hand strike + Blur + Torrent + Pulled Fangs
+X strength minion + hand strike + Blur + Form of Mist + Pulled Fangs
+X strength minion + hand strike + Blur + Shadow Body + Pulled Fangs
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
http://www.TheLasombra.com
On May 12, 4:33 pm, The Lasombra <thelasom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 12, 3:23 pm, "crobert" wrote:
>>*snip card text*>
> Why "end combat immediately" redundantly? Your text needs to be
> cleaned up.
Sorry, it was just card text off the top of my head to illustrate the
idea, I wasn't going for game-ready card text... I guess I should have
spent more time on it.
> The option to do as you suggest is already in the game, and
> exemplified by some of Norman Brown's decks.
>
> In the block combat, do damage with the initial strike, gain an
> additional strike, and play a combat ends/action continues card as the
> additional strike, then play Disarm/Pulled Fangs as the combat is
> ending.
>
> +X strength minion + hand strike + Blur + Torrent + Pulled Fangs
> +X strength minion + hand strike + Blur + Form of Mist + Pulled Fangs
> +X strength minion + hand strike + Blur + Shadow Body + Pulled Fangs
>
So it has already been done with these examples, but it strikes me as
rather combo heavy and thus expensive in terms of both luck and card
slots. A card that allows for combat success = continue action gives a
wider range of combat options paired with one continuation card rather
than additional strike + continuation strike + Pulled fangs. I think
the fact that someone has tried to do this shows there is an interest,
but should it be made easier than these 3-card combos require? Or
would easier be too easy and this is the right level of difficulty for
the reward? I would wager Norman Brown would be in favor of such a
card given his interest in building decks that do that, but maybe he
likes the challenge? I personally would love the ability to bruise and
continue.
CJay
On May 12, 3:33 pm, The Lasombra <thelasom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 12, 3:23 pm, "crobert" wrote:
>
> > Powering Through
>> Why "end combat immediately" redundantly? Your text needs to be
> cleaned up.
>
> The option to do as you suggest is already in the game, and
> exemplified by some of Norman Brown's decks.
>
> In the block combat, do damage with the initial strike, gain an
> additional strike, and play a combat ends/action continues card as the
> additional strike, then play Disarm/Pulled Fangs as the combat is
> ending.
>
> +X strength minion + hand strike + Blur + Torrent + Pulled Fangs
> +X strength minion + hand strike + Blur + Form of Mist + Pulled Fangs
> +X strength minion + hand strike + Blur + Shadow Body + Pulled Fangs
>
There's also Ambulance.
[ quoted text not captured ]
I've always thought Ambulance lends itself better to stealth, since
getting caught a second time burns it. My thinking was a combat-
friendly continuation.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Personally, I think it's a great design idea. I hope LSJ will
consider it in the future.
Over Your Dead Body
Action Modifer
1 blood
Only usable after combat when this minion is ready and the opposing
minion is not.
[pot][cel] Only usable after combat with an ally. The action
continues as if unblocked.
[POT][CEL] As [pot][cel] above, but usable after combat with a younger
vampire.
I think it's interesting as a combo card, but more vampires could use
it if were single discipline. I think it could also be powered up by
making it a reaction that allows an untap. Or maybe instead of
continuing the action, it untaps the minion after a successful combat.
Also, maybe the card above is too weak, because you have to be playing
big vamps, and completely torpor/burn vamps. But it's easy to power
up: remove cost, allow an untap, allow it to be played after a round
where the vamp inflicted more damage than the opposing minion, etc.
Ira
[ quoted text not captured ]
*Excuse the semi-gratuitous use of my nickname in a card title, it
seemed appropriate to use the word... before I realised it was in my
nickname.
Juggernaut
Action Modifier
1 blood
Only usable after combat when this acting vampire is ready and the
opposing minion is not ready.
[pot] This action continues at -1 stealth as if unblocked.
[POT] This action continues as if unblocked.
Unstoppable Object
Combat
Only usable when this combat is ending, this minion is ready and the
opposing minion is not ready.
[for] Burn 2 blood to continue this action as if unblocked.
[FOR] Burn 1 blood to continue this action as if unblocked.
[ quoted text not captured ]
How about this:
Shrug
Out-Turn-Master
Unique
Cost: 1 pool
Usable on your own turn. Only usable when a minion is ready at the end
of combat and the opposing minion is not. Place this card on the ready
minion. Once per turn after a combat resulting from a successful
block, this minion's controller may tap this card to continue the
action as if unblocked.
Rough, but disciplineless and highly usable.
Brandon
The idea is great - either an action card to enter combat and continue
if blocked, or combat card to continue action at end of a combat
resulting from being blocked. Any deck can produce a chump 2-cap
blocker and basically render any rusher useless. Even 10-cap demigods
can easily be waylaid by a thinblood - seems a bit ridiculous.
Obviously there could be an issue with overpowering this type of card,
however all the other combat defences (eg: S:CE, prevention, etc)
still work as effectively.
EG:
Can I Speak to Your Manager?
Action.
(D) Enter combat with a ready minion controlled by another Methuselah.
If blocked, and the opposing [younger?] minion is not ready at the end
of the resulting combat, the acting vampire may continue this action.
Outta My Way
Combat.
Only usable at the end of a combat [involving an acting older
vampire]. Only usable by a vampire that was blocked while attempting
to enter combat with a minion other than the opposing minion.
This action continues as if unblocked.
Both are obviously undisciplined - possibly making them over-powered,
but the restriction of binning the first opposing minion and
immediately re-entering into combat hopefully balances this somewhat.
Also, if these cards were dedicated to a particular discipline, which
discipline should it be given to - Potence is the obvious choice (for
both suitability and wide availability) , but with IG it already is a
v powerful discipline. Animalism is a bit similar, but with the Aids/
Crows power-combo possibly resulting in a huge over-powering if Ani
scored these cards. These proposed rush cards would probably be used
with either Potence or Animalism decks anyway, so it seems redundant
to limit the cards to these disciplines and prevent other (more novel)
decks from access to them.
Another restriction could be to only allow it to be played if the
acting vamp is older than the blocker. (as suggested by "Over your
dead body"). For this, the text in the [] was entered for the above
suggested cards.
The suggestion of requiring dual disciplines (eg Pot + Cel) will
certainly avoid over-powering the cards, but perhaps too much. Why
bother making a really useful card that addresses a massive shortfall
of *most* combat decks, and then turn it into a cornercase by
requiring excessive specifications?
Hopefully LSJ will seriously consider the idea (...please!!)
On May 12, 7:09 pm, Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Juggernaut
> Action Modifier
> 1 blood
> Only usable after combat when this acting vampire is ready and the
> opposing minion is not ready.
> [pot] This action continues at -1 stealth as if unblocked.
> [POT] This action continues as if unblocked.
>
> Unstoppable Object
> Combat
> Only usable when this combat is ending, this minion is ready and the
> opposing minion is not ready.
> [for] Burn 2 blood to continue this action as if unblocked.
> [FOR] Burn 1 blood to continue this action as if unblocked.
I dig both of these...
stuj...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Hopefully LSJ will seriously consider the idea (...please!!)
Maybe something to allow continuance if the block was sufficiently
inconsequential (brief and undamaging)?
Momentary Delay
Action Modifier
Requires a vampire with capacity 7 or more.
Only usable at the end of a action blocked by an ally or a vampire of capacity 5
or less (after any combats). Not usable if more than one round of combat has
occurred or 3 or more damage was successfully inflicted on this vampire. Not
usable if this vampire ended combat before the press step. The action continues
as if unblocked.
On May 13, 10:50 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
Certainly an equally good candidate, less aligned with the 'bruise my
way through' mentality, but offers some flexibility in exchange.
[ quoted text not captured ]
I would worry about the card taking up the slot of, say, a Disarm, a
Taste, etc, and getting in the way of more directly useful combat
cards. Combat decks that use permanents wouldn't need as many cards to
make it work (i.e. cel/guns) as those that do require several cards
(i.e. potence hand damage). If the card was something that could be
played as the action is announced or when entering combat with a
blocking minion, you could cycle into the bash their face in cards you
need. Also, if the card had a mechanism to draw a combat card from
their ash heap to their hand if the opposing minion was no longer
ready, it would mitigate the disadvantage of playing so many cards.
Brandon
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>Maybe something to allow continuance if the block was sufficiently
>inconsequential (brief and undamaging)?
>
>Momentary Delay
>Action Modifier
>Requires a vampire with capacity 7 or more.
>Only usable at the end of a action blocked by an ally or a vampire of
>capacity 5 or less (after any combats). Not usable if more than one
>round of combat has occurred or 3 or more damage was successfully
>inflicted on this vampire. Not usable if this vampire ended combat
>before the press step. The action continues as if unblocked.
I like the idea, but am mildly concerned about the implementation.
The "successfully inflicted" clause means that a fatty with Fortitude is
in a better position to do this. Unfortunately, fatties with Fortitude
are already better than non-Fortitudinous fatties, due to Freak Drive
and Forced March being such good cards. It also makes it much easier to
play both of those cards (where they require successful actions - i.e.
not superior Freak Drive), whereas blocking is currently a reasonable
way to try to stop that.
More minor thoughts: I wonder if making this would also help out, say,
Ventrue Law Firm, who are largely low-ish stealth. (Ventrue Obf doesn't
need this so much.) Also also, Signet of King Saul possibilities.
If you could make it trigger off something else... Long range combat
*and* little damage? Having a mortal retainer to scoot you away?
Erm...?
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
James Coupe wrote:
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:>> Maybe something to allow continuance if the block was sufficiently
>> inconsequential (brief and undamaging)?
>>
>> Momentary Delay
>> Action Modifier
>> Requires a vampire with capacity 7 or more.
>> Only usable at the end of a action blocked by an ally or a vampire of
>> capacity 5 or less (after any combats). Not usable if more than one
>> round of combat has occurred or 3 or more damage was successfully
>> inflicted on this vampire. Not usable if this vampire ended combat
>> before the press step. The action continues as if unblocked.>
> I like the idea, but am mildly concerned about the implementation.
>
> The "successfully inflicted" clause means that a fatty with Fortitude is
> in a better position to do this. Unfortunately, fatties with Fortitude
> are already better than non-Fortitudinous fatties, due to Freak Drive
> and Forced March being such good cards. It also makes it much easier to
> play both of those cards (where they require successful actions - i.e.
> not superior Freak Drive), whereas blocking is currently a reasonable
> way to try to stop that.
... making pressing more interesting. Not a bad thing, overall.
> More minor thoughts: I wonder if making this would also help out, say,
> Ventrue Law Firm, who are largely low-ish stealth. (Ventrue Obf doesn't
> need this so much.) Also also, Signet of King Saul possibilities.
>
>
> If you could make it trigger off something else... Long range combat
> *and* little damage? Having a mortal retainer to scoot you away?
> Erm...?
That way lies Tortured Confession.
> Momentary Delay
> Action Modifier
> Requires a vampire with capacity 7 or more.
> Only usable at the end of a action blocked by an ally or a vampire of capacity 5
> or less (after any combats). Not usable if more than one round of combat has
> occurred or 3 or more damage was successfully inflicted on this vampire. Not
> usable if this vampire ended combat before the press step. The action continues
> as if unblocked.
The initial proposal was a way by which combat decks could continue
their actions after blocks. This card misses that mark.
Traditionally, many combat decks do not use 7+ capacity vampires (the
risks of comabt are too high to invest that much pool in a minion),
some combat decks rely upon the press step to bin the opposining
minion (ANI and to a lesser extent, guns). if anything, this card
favours defensive combat (FOR) more than aggresive combat decks.
I'm not sure a card like this should be limited by capacity, presses
or dmg recieved if you want it to actually get played.
jase
On May 14, 7:13 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> James Coupe wrote:[ quoted text not captured ]> That way lies Tortured Confession.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Temporary Delay
Action Modifier
1 blood
Only usable after combat and the acting minion was blocked by a
younger vampire.
If both minion's strikes during combat were Strike:Dodge, Strike:
Combat Ends or were ineffective strikes for the range and no
environmental damage was dealt to either minion the acting minion
continues this action as if unblocked.
"Somebody STOP me!" - Jim Carrey, The Mask
Begone from my sight!
Combat
2 blood
Only usable when an acting vampire with capacity 8 or greater is
blocked by a vampire with capacity of less than 5 or an ally. Only
usable before range.
End combat immediately. The blocking minion remains tapped and this
action continues with -1 stealth as if unblocked. The blocking minion
may not attempt to block again.
"Get thee to a nunnery..." - Romeo & Juliet, W.Shakespeare
Ghouled Chauffer
Retainer
2 blood
Ghoul. 1 life.
Only usable by a vampire with capacity 8 or greater.
Once per action, if that action is blocked by an ally or a vampire of
capacity 4 or less, the vampire with this retainer may burn 1 blood,
before combat, to continue this action as if unblocked. The blocking
minion may not attempt to block this action again.
Unstoppable
Master, Archtype
Master: archetype. Put this card on a ready vampire you control with a
capacity above 6. Once each turn when combat involving this acting
vampire ends and the opposing minion is not ready, this vampire may
burn a blood to continue the action as though unblocked. A vampire may
have only one archetype.
Flavour text: I'm the Juggernaut Bitch!
--> J
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>James Coupe wrote:>> The "successfully inflicted" clause means that a fatty with
>>Fortitude is
>> in a better position to do this. Unfortunately, fatties with Fortitude
>> are already better than non-Fortitudinous fatties, due to Freak Drive
>> and Forced March being such good cards. It also makes it much easier to
>> play both of those cards (where they require successful actions - i.e.
>> not superior Freak Drive), whereas blocking is currently a reasonable
>> way to try to stop that.>
>... making pressing more interesting. Not a bad thing, overall.
I think that you'd need to make pressing a LOT more interesting before
it would work reasonably as a way of preventing a card being played.
This isn't like, say, Perfectionist, where wakes (of any sort) in
particular are already very popular, so they may get tossed to prevent
the blood gain. Very few people at all play second round combat because
it's awful, so this isn't going to help.
Also, I wonder if using, say, Soak + Target Vitals/Head + new card as a
"stealth" package is really that helpful. (Both shut down presses.)
>> More minor thoughts: I wonder if making this would also help out, say,
>> Ventrue Law Firm, who are largely low-ish stealth. (Ventrue Obf doesn't
>> need this so much.) Also also, Signet of King Saul possibilities.
>> If you could make it trigger off something else... Long range
>>combat
>> *and* little damage? Having a mortal retainer to scoot you away?
>> Erm...?>
>That way lies Tortured Confession.
Obviously, that's a concern.
Trying to find something more mainstream, but which doesn't help
Fortitude quite so much, I wondered along the lines of:
Only usable if less than X damage was inflicted on this vampire (even
if it was prevented) and the opposing minion did not choose more than
one strike during this combat.
Which would also prevent continuation after additional strikes.
[ quoted text not captured ]
[ quoted text not captured ]
-->J,
I'm a fan of that archetype idea... actually very simple. Only
concern is the same concern about "powering up the fatties".
Maybe if there was a way to basically say "No Freak Drive for you, but
you can continue the action". Kind of "yes you were blocked so you
can't Forced March/Freak@[for] but continue the action anyway".
What are people's thoughts about a combat card or action modifier that
will continue if the combat only had S:D, S:CE or ineffective
Handstrikes (either against S:D, S:CE, at Long)? Sure you still get
pantsed by Cailean with 4 Raven Spies... but you get to charge past
the Toreador "I see everything and am too pretty to ever fight you..."
Basically I like the idea of depowering the "Wall of S:CE" decks.
I like and prefer the initial idea in this thread, the "get-out-of-my-
way" type of cards such as
Juggernaut
Action Modifier
1 blood
Only usable after combat when this acting vampire is ready and the
opposing minion is not ready.
[pot] This action continues at -1 stealth as if unblocked.
[POT] This action continues as if unblocked.
Í think its important to focus on the damage dealing aspect, if that's
not a criteria then there's a risk that the card becomes accessible
to other deck archetypes than combat, and God knows that stealth/bleed
and the other stealthy archetypes have enough cards that circumvents
blocking as it is (such as Pentex Subversion/Seduction/Call of the
Hungry Dead).
As for the suggested Unstoppable Object, I think Freak Drive does the
trick as it is.
As for the Master: Archetype idea, I think Monster does the trick as
it is:
Monster
Type: Master
Master: archetype.
Put this card on a ready vampire you control. Once each turn when
combat involving this vampire ends and the opposing minion is not
ready, this vampire may burn a blood to untap. A vampire may have only
one archetype.
>> What are people's thoughts about a combat card or action modifier that
> will continue if the combat only had S:D, S:CE or ineffective
> Handstrikes (either against S:D, S:CE, at Long)? Sure you still get
> pantsed by Cailean with 4 Raven Spies... but you get to charge past
> the Toreador "I see everything and am too pretty to ever fight you..."
>
> Basically I like the idea of depowering the "Wall of S:CE" decks.
Dude, if you don't like S:CE, then insert psyches/grapples/dog packs/
hidden lurker/lots of minions in your deck so that the wall runs out
of S:CE. I don't see S:CE walls being a problem, I see the meagre
performance of combat decks (except war ghouls) in tournaments as a
problem, and continuing actions will give combat decks more of that
"lunge" capability that S+B decks have by being able to bleed for 6
with 3 minions at stealth and unblockable.