Q on Locations that give +1 stealth (LSJ?)

Hi all, I was looking through my cards recently and I noticed something that made me pause and say "huh?". There are 6 Master: Unique Locations that give Vampires of specific clans +1 stealth(1). Of the 6, 2 of them cost only 1 pool to put into play and the other 4 cost 2 pool. My question is, why the difference in cost? My first thought was that the 2 clans that get the +1 stealth for 1 pool have inherent "stealthy" capabilities (FoS and Nos both have obf as an in-clan discipline). However, !Gangrel have obf as an in-clan discipline and Lasombra have obt (which can get pretty stealthy) as an in-clan discipline and they both pay 2 for their stealth giving location. (On a similar note, Assamites have no in-clan disciplines that should give them intercept, but they get a +1 intercept location for only 1 pool(2)) My second thought was that Nos and FoS were known as "sneaky" clans. However, Assamites haven't got a stealth generating location at all and they have obf as an in-clan discipline *AND* they are known to be pretty sneaky (you gotta be to be an assassin!) and the Ravnos are supposed to be the masters of trickery and deceit, which should qualify them as sneaky. So, I was wondering if there was a specific reason that these cards have different costs and if there *ISN'T* a reason, can we expect the costs to change to make them consistent? Just curious. Thanks! Mari Malkavian Admin Assistant for Portla...@yahoogroups.com Chatelaine of Portland, OR (1) The Locations, clans and costs are: Backways Gangrel 2 Pool Twisted Forest !Gangrel 2 Pool Elysian Fields Lasombra 2 Pool The Labyrinth Nosferatu 1 Pool Fortune Teller's Shop Ravnos 2 Pool Opium Den Followers of Set 1 Pool (2) The Assamite Intercept location is: Market Square Assamite 1 Pool

Mari wrote: > > Hi all, > > I was looking through my cards recently and I noticed something that > made me pause and say "huh?". > > There are 6 Master: Unique Locations that give Vampires of specific > clans +1 stealth(1). Of the 6, 2 of them cost only 1 pool to put into > play and the other 4 cost 2 pool. My question is, why the difference > in cost? Utility. > My first thought was that the 2 clans that get the +1 stealth for 1 > pool have inherent "stealthy" capabilities (FoS and Nos both have obf > as an in-clan discipline). However, !Gangrel have obf as an in-clan > discipline and Lasombra have obt (which can get pretty stealthy) as an > in-clan discipline and they both pay 2 for their stealth giving > location. The same reason that Shadow Play costs 1 blood while Lost in Crowds is free. > (On a similar note, Assamites have no in-clan disciplines that should > give them intercept, but they get a +1 intercept location for only 1 > pool(2)) Defense in general is cheaper than offense. > My second thought was that Nos and FoS were known as "sneaky" clans. > However, Assamites haven't got a stealth generating location at all > and they have obf as an in-clan discipline *AND* they are known to be > pretty sneaky (you gotta be to be an assassin!) and the Ravnos are > supposed to be the masters of trickery and deceit, which should > qualify them as sneaky. > > So, I was wondering if there was a specific reason that these cards > have different costs and if there *ISN'T* a reason, can we expect the > costs to change to make them consistent? Do not expect the costs to change. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Mari wrote: >>There are 6 Master: Unique Locations that give Vampires of specific clans +1 stealth(1). Of the 6, 2 of them cost only 1 pool to put into play and the other 4 cost 2 pool. My question is, why the difference in cost?>> As LSJ pointed out, the answer is utility. I suspect, however, that if you look at all of the clan specific masters of a given clan, that they'll even out as a whole unit--for instance, the Nosferatu Labyrinth gives them +1 stealth and costs 1 pool, where the Gangrel Backways does the exact same thing and costs 2 pool. But if you keep looking at the Nosferatu and Gangrel masters, the Gangrel get Eco Terrorists, which is arguably *incredibly* powerful, and the Nosferatu get, um, the Storm Sewers (which is useful, sure, but not even close to as useful as the Eco Terrorists)? Thus, as a unit, they (the clan specific masters) even out and are balanced. Yeah, as individual units, they might not balance out, but as a selection of tools available to a given clan, they do. Granted, this is only a theory, but if someone who had a hand card list wanted to post lists of all the clan specific masters (or at least those of the Nosferatu and the Gangrel), I'd be willing to defend my theory :-) Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com http://www.geocities.com/bakija6 "She's a hero you see. She's not like us." -Giles

[ quoted text not captured ] Heck, I've got a few spare minutes at work and the ELDB: Backways Ecoterrorists Gangrel Revel Zoo Hunting Ground vs. The Labyrinth Nosferatu Hosting Secret Library of Alexandria Slum Hunting Ground The Spawning Pool Storm Sewers Of course, you have to add the clan specifics of Ritual Challenge Werewolf Pack Regegade Garou Gypsies Dog Pack Shackles of Enkidu vs. Patagia Nos Performance Art Kindred Intelligence Destructive Secrets (since that way you see they get 10 each) -- Pat Ricochet Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta

Pat wrote: >>(list of Nosferatu and Gangrel clan specific cards)>> Right. I figure the best way to do this is to grade all the in clan cards, and either come up with a total or an average or something. Maybe I'll do both. I'll use a scale of 1-4 for each card (just like your GPA in college!), where 1 is sucktackular, and 4 is a solid "A". Backways: 3. (Useful, but expensive at 2 pool) Ecoterrorists: 4 (all of these are very powerful) Gangrel Revel: 2 (kind of sucky, but useful in limited situations) Zoo Hunting Ground: 4 (kind of a zero factor, as everyone has the exact same one) vs. The Labyrinth: 4. (Useful and cheap) Nosferatu Hosting: 1 (not good at all) Secret Library of Alexandria: 3 (useful in some decks) Slum Hunting Ground: 4 (again, zero factor) The Spawning Pool: 2 (moderately useful corner case card) Storm Sewers: 3 (useful in some decks) So on just the masters, the Gangrel average out to 3.25 (13/4 cards), and the Nosferatu average out to 2.8 (17/6 cards). Not exactly average, but the disparity comes from the different number of cards (and the Hunting Ground factor defenitely curves the Gangrel's score upwards). So we will move on to the other clan specifics: Ritual Challenge: 3 (moderately useful in some decks) Werewolf Pack: 1 (welcome to suckville, population you) Regegade Garou: 3 (probably best ally out there, but still an ally) Gypsies: 2 (useful, but expensive) Dog Pack: 3 (very useful, but expensive) Shackles of Enkidu: 2 (corner case, at best) vs. Patagia: 2 (moderately useful, but not much better than IR goggles) Nos Performance Art: 2 (good hoser, but still a high opportunity cost hoser) Kindred Intelligence: 2 (ok, but not great) Destructive Secrets: 2 (limited use, expensive) Thus, if we add in the rest of the in clans, we get the Gangrel with 2.5 (25/10 cards) and the Nosferatu with 2.5 (25/10 cards). Look at that! And I didn't even cheat! (i.e. I didn't do the math before I wrote the post, so it would add up nicely to illustrate my point--I honestly did that off the top of my head). Thus, I'd say that on the whole, the clan specifics of the Nosferatu and Gangrel balance out quite nicely on the whole, even though certain cards (like Labyrinth and Backways) are not balanced with each other. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Mari" <tink...@geocities.com> wrote in message news:86a54eb0.01062...@posting.google.com... > There are 6 Master: Unique Locations that give Vampires of specific > clans +1 stealth(1). Of the 6, 2 of them cost only 1 pool to put into > play and the other 4 cost 2 pool. My question is, why the difference > in cost? Backways (Gangrel), Elysian Fields (Lasombra), Fortune Teller Shop (Ravnos), and Twisted Forest (!Gangrel) cost 2 pool. (Assamites have Khabar: The Community for +1 stealth on bleeding at a cost of 2 pool...similar, but not as good.) The Labyrinth (Nosferatu) and Opium Den (Setites) cost 1 pool. (Brujah have Carthage Remembered for +1 bleed and +1 stealth on bleed actions for 1 pool.) This is pretty much what I have always thought about it, though my take was that it depended less on their abilities than > My second thought was that Nos and FoS were known as "sneaky" clans. > However, Assamites haven't got a stealth generating location at all This is pretty much what I have always thought about it, though my take was that it depended less on their abilities than on what they tend to do...Nosferatu spend a lot of time skulking about in the sewers, and the FoS spend a lot of time blending in with the mortals and their vices, rather than hobnobbing with other vampires...they should be able to sneak by more careful watchers by using their contacts. > and they have obf as an in-clan discipline *AND* they are known to be > pretty sneaky (you gotta be to be an assassin!) and the Ravnos are Then again, the Assamites don't really have many contacts with the mortal world outside of their hired killer programs, so perhaps it's just not all that easy for them to move around unnoticed. > supposed to be the masters of trickery and deceit, which should qualify them as sneaky. My take on the Gangrel/Ravnos thing is that they just tend to be tied down less, so it's easier for them to move about unnoticed. And I never really figured out the Lasombra, but I guess *someone* else in the Sabbat had to have some stealth, and the !Malks sure as hell didn't need it. :) > So, I was wondering if there was a specific reason that these cards > have different costs and if there *ISN'T* a reason, can we expect the > costs to change to make them consistent? I have never expected to see cost changes...I think that by and large, they fit in with the themes of the clans, rather than the clans specific powers...the Gangrel certainly don't have any obfuscate. Overall, I guess I've just always looked at it as an ability to move about unnoticed by *anyone*, even those that would normally know what you were up to. Xian

"theventrue" <chr...@comcen.com.au> wrote in message news:3b315cc0$1...@news.iprimus.com.au... > [snip] > > > > The Labyrinth (Nosferatu) and Opium Den (Setites) cost 1 pool. (Brujah > have > > Carthage Remembered for +1 bleed and +1 stealth on bleed actions for 1 > > pool.) > > It would be nice (although overpowered) if carthage gave the brujah princes > +1 bleed but alas it only gives them the +1 stealth. Oh yeah. I always forget that part. I don't know why I think they should have +1 bleed. Oh well. That makes more sense to me. I mean, you'd think that titled Brujah that remembered Carthage would be *less* stealthy...but maybe more umm...bleed-y. Xian

"Xian" <xi...@NOSPAMwaste.org> wrote in message news:JJeY6.1024$OO1.7...@news.uswest.net... [ quoted text not captured ] Yeah I agree, although i always took it to be similar to the way seppo's say "Remember the Alamo".

>> There are 6 Master: Unique Locations that give Vampires of specific >> clans +1 stealth(1). Of the 6, 2 of them cost only 1 pool to put into >> play and the other 4 cost 2 pool. My question is, why the difference >> in cost? > >Utility. > You might also be interested in knowing that there is one more difference beside pool cost. Fortune Teller Shop is different from all the other 5 because it is usable on *any* Ravnos, not just the ones you control (which makes things more interesting if there are more than one Ravnos player in the game). I've always thought that the difference in pool and "controlability" made the game more interesting. But then (A) why were the Hunting Grounds changed? If you recall, the Malkavian HG originally only costed 1 pool and the Tremere HG gave blood during the master (not untap) phase, which I found "different" but "interesting." In addition, a few months ago I was posting about how I thought it would cool if all the Paths should be a little different for some more variety and a bunch of people yelled at me talking about how all the Paths should remain carbon copies of each other for "consistency" and all. Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2 wrote: > I've always thought that the difference in pool and "controlability" made the > game more interesting. But then (A) why were the Hunting Grounds changed? If > you recall, the Malkavian HG originally only costed 1 pool and the Tremere HG > gave blood during the master (not untap) phase, which I found "different" but > "interesting." The Asylum HG and the Library HG were originally exactly as they are now. It was the initial /re/printing (in V:TES, the second printing) that accidentally misprinted the two. The errors were quickly fixed (via errata) by the then-current design team. [ quoted text not captured ]

>> you recall, the Malkavian HG originally only costed 1 pool and the Tremere >HG >> gave blood during the master (not untap) phase, which I found "different" >but >> "interesting." > >The Asylum HG and the Library HG were originally exactly as they are now. >It was the initial /re/printing (in V:TES, the second printing) that >accidentally >misprinted the two. The errors were quickly fixed (via errata) by the >then-current design team. I stand corrected. Thanks! BTW: It *is* however "Academic" not "Library" HG (Library is for the Tzimisce). You're slipping again Scott! Is your childe keeping you up? =) Halcyan 2