[LSJ] Obedience and 2nd Trad and more

I've got three quick questions: 1) How exactly does Obedience interact with the various wakes and blocking in general. I've always assumed you can just block and play Obedience in the resulting combat. However, yesterday someone pointed out that to block you need to tap and as such you can't play Obedience. This makes no sense to me, since Obedience states "do not tap this reacting minion", implying you *can* use it right after a block, and as such after the various wake-cards. Am I correct? 2) What about Second Tradition and not blocking? Can I, for example, play 2nd trad at "superior", burn a blood for untapping and the play deflection at superior and stay untapped, or am I forced to attempt to block after playing a second tradition? 3) How do Disarm and Theft of Vitae work together. Theft is technically not damage, so if I play theft at superior at close range and my opponent strikes hands for one, he has inflicted more damage than I did (one point as opposed to none, even though he lost two blood to the Theft). Can he now play Disarm? While I think he technically could, it doesn't make much sense to me. 4) I'm at two pool and my prey is at two as well. My predator calls Kine Resources contested and sets the terms for two damage to me and two to my prey. The vote passes and as such we're both ousted. Who gets VP's? Do I get one and my predator one, does my predator get two, or does he get one and one VP is simply lost?

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:34:13 +0100, "Ulugh Beg II" <dontfe...@spam.me> wrote: >1) How exactly does Obedience interact with the various wakes and blocking in general. Obedience does not require a block. Obedience requires the vampire playing it to be untapped or able to play cards as though untapped, the same as almost all other reaction cards. If you do block, you play Obedience before you tap to enter combat. LSJ 2000-10-05 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=39DC6D33.229F5000%40white-wolf.com >I've always assumed you can just block and play Obedience in the resulting combat. You cannot play reaction cards during combat. You must play it before combat occurs, pertinent card text: "when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat " > However, yesterday someone pointed out that to block you need to tap and as such you >can't play Obedience. This makes no sense to me, since Obedience states "do not tap this >reacting minion", implying you *can* use it right after a block, and as such after the various wake-cards. >Am I correct? Yes. You do not tap for blocking until you have successfully blocked. Once it is determined that you will successfully block, you play Obedience and avoid tapping. LSJ 2000-03-16 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38D0D882.94E7276E%40white-wolf.com Obedience is played after a vampire successfully blocks but before the blocker is tapped and combat begins. It cancels combat and (in inferior) untaps the acting minion (while the blocker does not tap). [RTR 06-DEC-1999] >2) What about Second Tradition and not blocking? Cannot happen unless they gain stealth of 3 or more, or play an action modifier that prohibits your block _after_ you have played the Second Tradition. > Can I, for example, play 2nd trad at "superior", burn a blood for untapping >and the play deflection at superior and stay untapped, or am I forced to >attempt to block after playing a second tradition? You are forced to attempt to block. Pertinent card text: "to burn a blood to untap and attempt to block" http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Cardlist.html >3) How do Disarm and Theft of Vitae work together. They don't. If you are playing Theft, you are not doing damage, and will be unable to play Disarm. Your opponent will gladly Disarm you when you play Theft though. >Theft is technically not damage, Stealing blood is not damage. Stealing equipment is not damage. Destroying equipment is not damage. >so if I play theft at superior at close >range and my opponent strikes hands for one, he has inflicted more >damage than I did (one point as opposed to none, even though he >lost two blood to the Theft). Can he now play Disarm? Absolutely and without hesitation. >While I think he technically could, it doesn't make much sense to me. Card text is clear. "inflicted more damage" http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Cardlist.html >4) I'm at two pool and my prey is at two as well. >My predator calls Kine Resources contested and >sets the terms for two damage to me and two to my prey. >The vote passes and as such we're both ousted. Who gets VP's? Your predator gets 1 VP and 6 pool. You get 1 VP and are still ousted. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/ 9.1. Victory Points If a player is ousted at the same time that her prey is ousted, the player gets the victory point but does not gain 6 pool. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

Ulugh Beg II expounded: > I've got three quick questions: > > > 1) How exactly does Obedience interact with the various wakes and blocking in general. > I've always assumed you can just block and play Obedience in the resulting combat. However, yesterday someone pointed out that to block you need to tap and as such you can't play Obedience. This makes no sense to me, since Obedience states "do not tap this reacting minion", implying you *can* use it right after a block, and as such after the various wake-cards. > Am I correct? You are mostly correct -NB Obedience is not played *in* the combat but *before* (and instead of) it. Obedience is played before tapping. > 2) What about Second Tradition and not blocking? Can I, for example, play 2nd trad at "superior", burn a blood for untapping and the play deflection at superior and stay untapped, or am I forced to attempt to block after playing a second tradition? You have to attempt to block. After you play your 2ndT the acting Meth has a chance to play more stealth (and/or other modifiers). When the acting Meth has finished playing modifiers then either the block is declared successful (you can't play deflection) or it is not (for whatever reason). If you get another cahnce to play cards before teh block is declared successful then you can play deflection then (and not tap if at DOM). > 3) How do Disarm and Theft of Vitae work together. Theft is technically not damage, so if I play theft at superior at close range and my opponent strikes hands for one, he has inflicted more damage than I did (one point as opposed to none, even though he lost two blood to the Theft). Can he now play Disarm? While I think he technically could, it doesn't make much sense to me. I think he can disarm. > 4) I'm at two pool and my prey is at two as well. My predator calls Kine Resources contested and sets the terms for two damage to me and two to my prey. The vote passes and as such we're both ousted. Who gets VP's? Do I get one and my predator one, does my predator get two, or does he get one and one VP is simply lost? 1 VP each but you don't get the 6 pool (as you are ousted).

Some quick answers (I hope) #1 Wake card text "Only usable by a tapped vampire. This reacting vampire can play reaction cards and attempt to block as though untapped until the current action is concluded." Obedience card text "Only usable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat with an acting younger vampire. [dom] Untap the acting vampire, do not tap this reacting vampire, and end the current action (and combat). The acting vampire cannot attempt the same action this turn. [DOM] As above, but do not untap the acting vampire." As stated on obedience, only usable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat etc. Hence the only time you can play it is when you have tapped to block :) #2 2nd Trads Name: Second Tradition: Domain [Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:U/PTo/PV2] Second Tradition: Domain, The Cardtype: Reaction Requires a ready prince or justicar. +2 intercept. Also usable by a tapped prince or justicar, even if intercept is not yet needed, to burn a blood to untap and attempt to block with +2 intercept. As shown on the card text, the optional untap must be used to block with +2 intercept...so no deflections :) #3 Theft of Vitae/Disarm Any blood lost to stealing actions....card text or special abilities does not count as damage inflicted. Therefore, if the opposing minion hits you for at least one damage and you have no additional damage effects then the opposing minion can play disarm. [LSJ] groups.google.com/groups?q=theft+of+vitae+disarm+lsj&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=35EA953E.2781%40wizards.com&rnum=7 #4 VP's In the situation you describe your predator would gain a VP for killing you and 6 pool. However as your prey died at the same time you gain a VP and the 6 Pool from your preys death is lost. Page 50 Black Hand rule book...see the exception. Hope this helps. James "Ulugh Beg II" <dontfe...@spam.me> wrote in message news:c053h9$6ta$1...@reader11.wxs.nl... [ quoted text not captured ]

> >2) What about Second Tradition and not blocking? > > Cannot happen unless they gain stealth of 3 or more, or play an action > modifier that prohibits your block _after_ you have played the Second > Tradition. > > > > Can I, for example, play 2nd trad at "superior", burn a blood for untapping > >and the play deflection at superior and stay untapped, or am I forced to > >attempt to block after playing a second tradition? > > You are forced to attempt to block. > Pertinent card text: > > "to burn a blood to untap and attempt to block" Am I correct in assuming you can still untap and attempt to block even if you don't need the intercept (I think it's even card text on the new one)? So I can use a tapped prince to block a 0-stealth bleed directed against me, burn a blood to untap, get +2 intercept and attempt to block, and THEN play Obedience right before the resulting combat. All correct?

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 16:28:02 +0100, "Ulugh Beg II" <dontfe...@spam.me> wrote: Re: Second Tradition: >Am I correct in assuming you can still untap and attempt to block even >if you don't need the intercept (I think it's even card text on the new >one)? Yes. Pertinent card text: "even if intercept is not yet needed" http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Cardlist.html >So I can use a tapped prince to block a 0-stealth bleed directed against >me, burn a blood to untap, get +2 intercept and attempt to block, and >THEN play Obedience right before the resulting combat. Yes, you can. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 01:44:48 +1030, "James Scott" <tem...@internode.on.net> wrote: >As stated on obedience, only usable when this reacting vampire is about to enter combat etc. >Hence the only time you can play it is when you have tapped to block :) You don't "tap to block". You tap when you have successfully blocked. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/ 6.2.3. Resolve the Action If the action is blocked, then any card played to take the action is burned and the blocking minion is tapped and enters combat with the acting minion. You may play Obedience before tapping, per VTES card text. See also the Rules Team Ruling of 06-DEC-1999 http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/12699RTR.htm "Both Obedience and Change of Target are played after the block is successful but before the blocker is tapped and combat begins. (Note: this is errata to the Sabbat version of Obedience, making it read as the V:TES version reads.)" [ quoted text not captured ]

The Lasombra wrote: > On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:34:13 +0100, "Ulugh Beg II" <dontfe...@spam.me> wrote: >>1) How exactly does Obedience interact with the various wakes and blocking in general. > Obedience requires the vampire playing it to be untapped or able to > play cards as though untapped, the same as almost all other reaction > cards. > If you do block, you play Obedience before you tap to enter combat. > You do not tap for blocking until you have successfully blocked. > Once it is determined that you will successfully block, you play > Obedience and avoid tapping. Correct. (with more correct parts and citations snipped) >>2) What about Second Tradition and not blocking? > You are forced to attempt to block. Correct. (with snips as before) >>3) How do Disarm and Theft of Vitae work together. > Stealing blood is not damage. > >>so if I play theft at superior at close >>range and my opponent strikes hands for one, he has inflicted more >>damage than I did (one point as opposed to none, even though he >>lost two blood to the Theft). Can he now play Disarm? > Absolutely and without hesitation. Correct. >>4) I'm at two pool and my prey is at two as well. >>The vote passes and as such we're both ousted. Who gets VP's? > > Your predator gets 1 VP and 6 pool. > You get 1 VP and are still ousted. Correct. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

> 1) How exactly does Obedience interact with the various wakes and > blocking in general. > I've always assumed you can just block and play Obedience in the > resulting combat. However, yesterday someone pointed out that to block > you need to tap and as such you can't play Obedience. This makes no > sense to me, since Obedience states "do not tap this reacting minion", > implying you *can* use it right after a block, and as such after the > various wake-cards. > Am I correct? You tap as you enter combat. Obedience is played before combat is entered. Thus, Obedience cancels the combat AND the tapping effect. > 2) What about Second Tradition and not blocking? Can I, for example, > play 2nd trad at "superior", burn a blood for untapping and the play > deflection at superior and stay untapped, or am I forced to attempt to > block after playing a second tradition? Per card text, "untap and attempt to block." You must attempt to block before you can react in any other way. if the block is somehow unsuccessful, whether a "block fails" effect is played or more stealth is applied, THEN you can Defelct. Similarly, you cannot play 2nd Tradition if you can't attempt to block (if the minion is Seduced, for example, or if it's outside of the normal predator/prey or acting/target restrictions). > 3) How do Disarm and Theft of Vitae work together. Theft is technically > not damage, so if I play theft at superior at close range and my > opponent strikes hands for one, he has inflicted more damage than I did > (one point as opposed to none, even though he lost two blood to the > Theft). Can he now play Disarm? While I think he technically could, it > doesn't make much sense to me. Yes, he can play Disarm. > 4) I'm at two pool and my prey is at two as well. My predator calls Kine > Resources contested and sets the terms for two damage to me and two to > my prey. The vote passes and as such we're both ousted. Who gets VP's? > Do I get one and my predator one, does my predator get two, or does he > get one and one VP is simply lost? You get the VP, but not the pool. Fanboy

>3) How do Disarm and Theft of Vitae work together. Theft is technically = >not damage, so if I play theft at superior at close range and my = >opponent strikes hands for one, he has inflicted more damage than I did = >(one point as opposed to none, even though he lost two blood to the = >Theft). Can he now play Disarm? While I think he technically could, it = >doesn't make much sense to me.=20 Assuming that no one plays any additional strikes and you don't prevent (or are immune) to the damage, then yes. One thing to remember is that Disarm is played at the end of a round (as is Pulled Fangs). On more than one occasion, a trigger-happy player has tried playing it before resolving additional strikes (the additional damage of which then might prevent Disarm from being played). Halcyan 2