Spirit Marionette [obe] bleed

Quick question. If a vampire bleeds using Spirit Marionette at [obe] does you prey tap a minion as the action is announced or once resolved CiRcLe

Spirit Marionette Action Cost: None [dom]: (D) Bleed at +1 bleed. [obe]: (D) Bleed at +1 bleed and tap a ready minion controlled by your prey (even if the target of the bleed is changed). [OBE]: +1 stealth action. (D) Take control of any ready untapped minion until the end of the next action. That minion must bleed your prey unless he or she must hunt. Once resolved. No action has an effect as it is announced (it might get blocked). I can understand why [obe] might be confusing, as things that happen before the action is resolved (bouncing a bleed) may affect the action. -Vin "Yorik" <pukem...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1119043165.2...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ]

Yorik wrote: > Quick question. If a vampire bleeds using Spirit Marionette at [obe] > does you prey tap a minion as the action is announced or once resolved > Yes. As with all action cards, card text is executed upon the successful resolution of the action. Specific card text, saying that some effect resolved earlier, would be needed to override this. Regards DaveZ Atom Weaver

All effects of an action take place when the action is resolved, unless stated otherwise.

If the bleed is bounced, is it still a D action against the new target? The [obe] version is targeting the Meth being bled, though it also seems like it's targeting a vamp of your prey. Does that make it an undirected action (because it's targeting stuff from multiple Meths) ? Thanks, Ira

ira...@gmail.com wrote: > If the bleed is bounced, is it still a D action against the new target? Yes. > The [obe] version is targeting the Meth being bled, though it also > seems like it's targeting a vamp of your prey. Does that make it an > undirected action (because it's targeting stuff from multiple Meths) ? No. It only targets the Methuselah being bled. If that directed bleed is successful, there is an added effect. -- LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

[ quoted text not captured ] How do you define target then? Just from the wording (bleed at +1 *and* tap a vamp), it seems like the same case as mehemet (burn a blood *and* a Discipline card), where it's undirected if the controller of card and vamp are not the same.

Arden McBathan wrote: > How do you define target then? The target of the bleed. See also Deflection, Redirection, and Telepathic Misdirection. [ quoted text not captured ]

Hey LSJ, I understand that Mehemet's action is undirected if the controller of the discipline card and the vamp aren't the same. I understand that [obe] Spirit Marionette is directed even if the target of the bleed and the controller of the vamp to-be-tapped aren't the same. I do not understand *why* that is the case, given the extremely similar language on both cards. Could you attempt to explain the "why" in a way that I can understand? If I had to attempt to explain it now, I would guess that the difference is the *comma* after "Bleed at +1 Bleed." Because of that comma, it implies that the second clause is an added effect. Furthermore, I would say that the parenthetical statement " (even if the target of the bleed is changed)" is simply reminder text and doesn't make a difference in why Mehemet and [obe] Spirit Marionette are treated differently. Having written that, I think the comma seems like a weak argument, so hopefully there's something I'm missing. Personally, the answer that makes the most sense to me is "game balance," but that seems inconsistent with Mehemet. Thanks, Ira Mehemet: As a (D) action, Mehemet may burn one blood and one Master Discipline card on a vampire controlled by your prey. Spirit Marionette: (D) Bleed at +1 bleed, and tap a ready minion controlled by your prey [ quoted text not captured ]

On a tangent, does the Meth playing [obe] Spirit Marionette need to declare the vampire-to-be-tapped when the action is declared, or only after the action is sucessful? Thanks, Ira

On 22 Jun 2005 00:45:07 -0700, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> scrawled: >On a tangent, does the Meth playing [obe] Spirit Marionette need to >declare the vampire-to-be-tapped when the action is declared, or only >after the action is sucessful? [mental note] read whole thread before posting....damnit! salem http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:16:42 GMT, LSJ <vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> scrawled: >ira...@gmail.com wrote: >> If the bleed is bounced, is it still a D action against the new target? > >Yes. > >> The [obe] version is targeting the Meth being bled, though it also >> seems like it's targeting a vamp of your prey. Does that make it an >> undirected action (because it's targeting stuff from multiple Meths) ? > >No. It only targets the Methuselah being bled. If that directed bleed >is successful, there is an added effect. do you have to name the vampire you wish to tap when you announce the action? [ quoted text not captured ]

Hey LSJ, Would you consider responding to this thread? I feel like it's still unresolved. Thank you! Ira > ... > I do not understand *why* that is the case, given the extremely similar > language on both cards. Could you attempt to explain the "why" in a > way that I can understand? > ...

ira...@gmail.com wrote: > Hey LSJ, > > Would you consider responding to this thread? I feel like it's still > unresolved. There's no context to this post, so not much to respond to. > Thank you! > > Ira > > >>... >>I do not understand *why* that is the case, given the extremely similar >>language on both cards. Could you attempt to explain the "why" in a >>way that I can understand? >>... > > [ quoted text not captured ]

Hello LSJ, > There's no context to this post, so not much to respond to. I apologize. I realize that you are so busy that it's unreasonable to expect you to track down what I was referencing. I just see this thread, but you're reading hundreds of messages a day. Could you respond to the following post, earlier in this thread: http://tinyurl.com/7ph8r Thank you! Ira

[ quoted text not captured ] Heh. OK. Next time, try "paste as quotation" (or just paste the context you're interested in and wrap it in "[quote]" and "[/quote]" markers). Bleeds are directed. Spirit Marionette is a bleed. It is a directed bleed. It also taps a minion, but that is immaterial to the directedness. Like Enticement's buring of your Edge doesn't make the action undirected. [ quoted text not captured ]

Hey LSJ, Mehemet's action* seems analogous to a bounced Spirit Marionette, yet they work differently. The only difference I see is the comma, and perhaps the idea that Bleed actions are always directed. Would you please consider the following imaginary cards, and tell me if they are directed or undirected actions? Card 1 Only playable if there are at least three Methuselas Enter combat with a minion controlled by your predator, and tap a minion controlled by your prey. Card 2 Only playable if there are at least three Methuselas Enter combat with a minion controlled by your predator and tap a minion controlled by your prey. In my mind, Card 1 seems very similar to a bounced Spirit Marionette, and Card 2 seems very similar to Mehemet's action*. Also, they all seem very similar to each other. :) Thanks, Ira * For the duration of this discussion, please assume the Master card is controlled by someone else for Mehemet's action.

ira...@gmail.com wrote: > Hey LSJ, > > Mehemet's action* seems analogous to a bounced Spirit Marionette, yet > they work differently. The only difference I see is the comma, and > perhaps the idea that Bleed actions are always directed. Mehemet's action is not a bleed. SM is a directed bleed which also happens to tap a minion of your prey if the action is successful. Enticement is a directed burn pool effect which also happens to burn your Edge if successful. > Would you please consider the following imaginary cards, and tell me if > they are directed or undirected actions? No. Treat SM and Enticement are special cases, if you need to. [ quoted text not captured ]

Sorry for beating the dead horse, but i think i saw it twitching when looking for an unrelated ruling on SM... LSJ wrote: > ira...@gmail.com wrote: > > > Hey LSJ, > > > > Mehemet's action* seems analogous to a bounced Spirit Marionette, yet > > they work differently. The only difference I see is the comma, and > > perhaps the idea that Bleed actions are always directed. > > Mehemet's action is not a bleed. > > SM is a directed bleed which also happens to tap a minion of > your prey if the action is successful. compare with: <<<LSJ 23 Apr. 2004 20:31 Alexander Michels wrote: > Maybe this has been covered somewhere else before, but I just received a > strange question about spirit marionette. Can you use Spirit Marionette at > inferior if your prey controlls no minions (or no ready minions)? Since the No. > card says "Bleed at +1 bleed and tap a ready minion controlled by your > prey...." !!!! > is it considered both a bleed action and an action to tap a minion > (thus cannot be used if there's nothing to target?). !!!! > Or does the action > resolve to the best of its ability, and accomplish as much as it can when > successful. The former. >>> Do those rulings contradict? If not, why? (Just for my understanding of targetting, i understand that SM will never ever be ruled undirected when bounced...) [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] No. Similarly Enticement. Enticement "targets" the Edge (for burning), although the action is directed elsewhere. Spirit Marionette (a bleed) targets the target of the bleed (bleeding is always (D)irected). It also chooses/selects a minion, so, by the rules on choosing/selecting, the appropriate choice/selection must be available. [ quoted text not captured ]