Is there any point to designing a Nagaraja deck?

I mean, I like them a lot, and I'm all for creating clan-themed decks that are a bit unusual (especially Bloodlines), but what do Nagaraja provide that a regular Giovanni deck couldn't? Bleed reduction and untapping minions with Precognizant Mobility. Hardly seems worth dealing with scarcity. Nagaraja don't seem to have any unique Disciplines, strong combat defence, library cards, or good Discipline combinations to make the effort worthwhile. I could attempt Dominate bleeds with necrostealth - Ex Nihilo, Call of the Hungry Dead, and Spectral Divination - but the Giovanni can do exactly the same thing without being scarce. Hmmm. I've got enough Nagaraja to make a deck, but no good ideas. I may just start making more Giovanni decks, and put one or two Nagaraja in each one. -- james o'rance http://www.geocities.com/dragon-dreamer/vampire

[ quoted text not captured ] The point to building a Nagaraja deck right at the moment is to win storyline events and get them a card that actually makes them something besides Giovanni wanna-bes. But, of course, this isn't going to happen. Point in general for a Nagaraja deck is if you want an extraordinary challenge while building a deck you know could have been better if you weren't building around Nagaraja - build the best (or is it worst?) nut puncher. They sort of succeed in the Bloodlines mission statement of "oh no, we don't want you to build decks that only use bloodlines, they are just suppose to support real clans". Kanimana is decent with Giovanni. Le Dinh Tho has a lot of advocates. But, whereas Salubri and Trujah open up distinctly new possibilities for decks, these guys fail to expand the number of archetypes. Don't see much hope for them getting any more useful. A clan card would only make sense if more were made or current ones were reprinted. What set will do that? Do we really expect a Bloodlines 2? An Aus+Nec card would make sense to me, but while I think the HoS could use the help, there may be a philosophy that they or no one does. Don't ever really expect a card that combines Aus, Dom, and Nec in some way. Could make a card that reduces the pain of scarceness, but the whole point of scarceness is to discourage people from playing multiple scarcies of the same bloodline to prevent scarcie decks which has the one good feature of reducing the chance of contestation. But, if they aren't going to add much to the game, why were they made? Seems to me that it's important for them to do something distinctive to justify eating up space in Bloodlines that could have been used to flesh out other bloodlines.

jor...@sydcon.net (James O'Rance) wrote in message news:<7455ad7.03091...@posting.google.com>... > I mean, I like them a lot, and I'm all for creating clan-themed decks > that are a bit unusual (especially Bloodlines), but what do Nagaraja > provide that a regular Giovanni deck couldn't? Bleed reduction and > untapping minions with Precognizant Mobility. Hardly seems worth > dealing with scarcity. "The Nag" are all about the individual vampires and their unique specials. All three have such great specials that they work well with almost any deck. You shouldn't really consider them a clan per se, since only one has more than 2 in clan abilities at superior. In fact by my count, two of them are ever so slightly underpowered: Le Dinh Tho: 4 points of disciplines 1 to 2 points of special -1 for drawback (-1 stealth on hunting) -0.5 to -1 for scarce For 5 pool, you either get best case 4.5 points of vampire, worst case 3 points. However, he is so cheap for his ability and skillset that he is one of the best vampires in the game, so you could easily overlook this. Raful al-Zarqa 5 points of disciplines 1 point of special -0.5 to -1 point for scarceness For 6 pool, you get 5 to 5.5 points of vampire. The skills are all inferior except Auspex (which is screwy considering that all the other skills are aggressive and yet Auspex is defensive). And the special is average. > Nagaraja don't seem to have any unique Disciplines, strong combat > defence, library cards, or good Discipline combinations to make the > effort worthwhile. I could attempt Dominate bleeds with necrostealth - > Ex Nihilo, Call of the Hungry Dead, and Spectral Divination - but the > Giovanni can do exactly the same thing without being scarce. Hmmm. Like I say, it's all about the specials and individual vampires. The 7 cap fits with a Malks with Protean deck, the 6 cap fits with a Group 1 Malk deck or a deck with Carlotta or Pochlti in, the 5 cap fits in any deck with dominate in. It's barely worth commiting their names to memory! > I've got enough Nagaraja to make a deck, but no good ideas. I may just > start making more Giovanni decks, and put one or two Nagaraja in each > one. Simple advice? Don't bother. Keep the Le Dinh Tho's, trade the Rafuls ASAP and keep a couple of Kanimana's for a rainy day. They are not a clan, they are padding for certain decks. Dave

> I mean, I like them a lot, and I'm all for creating clan-themed decks > that are a bit unusual (especially Bloodlines), but what do Nagaraja > provide that a regular Giovanni deck couldn't? Bleed reduction and > untapping minions with Precognizant Mobility. Hardly seems worth > dealing with scarcity. See possible answers on Giovanni + Aus in a recent thread : http://minilien.com/?DwggP2LvNw . > Nagaraja don't seem to have any unique Disciplines, strong combat > defence, library cards, or good Discipline combinations to make the > effort worthwhile. I could attempt Dominate bleeds with necrostealth - > Ex Nihilo, Call of the Hungry Dead, and Spectral Divination - but the > Giovanni can do exactly the same thing without being scarce. Hmmm. > > I've got enough Nagaraja to make a deck, but no good ideas. I may just > start making more Giovanni decks, and put one or two Nagaraja in each > one. I agree onthe point that the Nags are mostlyabout specials, and a little about their disciplines too. All 3 of them are great in the appropriate decks (in 3 or 4 copies) : Le Din Tho doubtless gave me many Giovanni victories : being able to take a Deflect, an Archon Investigation a rush, a Contract, a Minion Tap, a Protect Thine Own I have just delayed, etc etc from your prey or predator's hand is worth 5 pool anytime (he can also bleed...) ; and he was the only way I could make deals, with the Delaying Tactics, because a D action in a forward deck is a great asset. Plus, he has NEC and Dom, and if you play Leonardo and some Blood Dolls his handicap never should be one. On the Necropoll currently active on http://necrobones.free.fr, Le comes first in the list of Necro vamps I proposed (mostly Bloodlines or clans without Nec as a built-in discipline), at 28%, before Matthias at 22%. Kanimana was my less favourite one, but will be the main vampire in my next AUS/DOM/NEC vote deck (I plan to do a Sabbat and an Anarch versions). Her special is great if you can untap her. Unfortunately, you will be able to do so obly with an extra discipline or a Firebrand, but then in between turns she can use Homonculus. And of course, Raful Al-zarqa is a good addition in a Gio Obf deck (no Pot) : I'm thinking mostly of allies decks needing some Obf. Her special would be nice in many cases. But I agree : she is a much better addition for the Malks, who won't need to put more than one of her anyway. Still trying to find a deck idea with her 4 disciplines, but even with the recent Sorceress she feels sort of alone... You may want to check what Nagaraja / Arpèges said about them on http://necrobones.free.fr/nagaraja.htm. So, except for Storyline purposes (and the Giovanni have much more chances of winning it if we all fight the good fight) there isn't much interest in putting more than 1 Nagaraja (thrice or more) in a given deck, as is intended for a Scarce, 3-vamps bloodline. Hope that answers your question, Orpheus

cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote: > > They sort of succeed in the Bloodlines mission statement of "oh no, we don't > want you to build decks that only use bloodlines, they are just suppose to > support real clans". Kanimana is decent with Giovanni. Kanimana is also worth trying in a !Gangrel deck with Sebastian Goulet and Caitlin. She gives some additional bleed defence and can Compel the Abominated BS Buddy's Spirit, too. -Antero

"Orpheus" <orph...@free.fr> wrote: > I agree onthe point that the Nags are mostlyabout specials, and a little > about their disciplines too. All 3 of them are great in the appropriate > decks (in 3 or 4 copies) : I have at least three copies of each, so this is doable. I'm not sure that I have -that- many Giovanni decks to play, though! > So, except for Storyline purposes (and the Giovanni have much more chances > of winning it if we all fight the good fight) I like to play Harbingers in storyline tournaments. :) Unfortunately September is a horribly busy month for me this year; it looks like I won't be able to make any more tournaments. Considering that I built a Harbinger political deck the njight before the Sydney tournament it did okay, but I would have liked to try it again with the more aggressive votes added. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Le Dinh Tho: >4 points of disciplines >1 to 2 points of special >-1 for drawback (-1 stealth on hunting) >-0.5 to -1 for scarce I'd say: 4 points of disciplines 2 points for special -1 for drawback From my observations, Scarce doesn't give extra points as much as it affects the specialness of the special. So if you ignore the Scarce cost, you can end up with about 5 points. And even with what he's got, Le Dinh Tho is simply an AMAZING vampire. I've known decks that share none of his discipine put him in just for his special. >Raful al-Zarqa >5 points of disciplines >1 point of special >-0.5 to -1 point for scarceness 5 points of disciplines 1 point of special As before, Scarceness affects the quality of the special. Generally, smaller vampires don't get built-in stealth so perhaps the Scarceness penalty allows her to have that ability at such a low capacity? Similarly, with Kanimana you get 7 points of disciplines and a special. And if you allow Scarceness to apply to the uniqueness of the special, she comes out right as well. Generally speaking, same thing for the other Scarce vampires. Krassimir: 7 discipline points + special Synesios: 8 discipline points + title + special (he actually ends up a little ahead) Nu: 9 discipline points + special (a little short but synergy may make up for it) Miriam: 4 discipline points + two specials (point-wise a little ahead. But the inferior Obeah really hurts which is why she sees less play than the others). Blanche Hill: 5 discipline points + special. Ignoring the Scarceness, on track for a 6-cap but the Scarceness compensates for her awesome ability. Matthias: 7 points + 2 specials. Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message > >Raful al-Zarqa > >5 points of disciplines > >1 point of special > >-0.5 to -1 point for scarceness > > 5 points of disciplines > 1 point of special > As before, Scarceness affects the quality of the special. Generally, smaller > vampires don't get built-in stealth so perhaps the Scarceness penalty allows > her to have that ability at such a low capacity? she would be more played if the +1 stealth was free. Or if she could burn one blood to give +1 stealth to one of your other minions. As she is, Raful can still be a pretty evil bleeding machine, with a pulse of the canaille and consistent bleeds for 3 +. With Le din tho cleaning your receiving end's hand, it's a first prey in the pocket.

jor...@sydcon.net (James O'Rance) wrote in message news:<7455ad7.03091...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Well, there's one angle that Orpheus (my preferred source on Necro matters) seems to have skipped over for now, which is Bartholomew. He's an 8-cap Kyasid, and by some fluke of nature has AUS dom MYT NEC obt as his disciplines. He also has an amazing special: if he's untapped at the start of your turn, you gain a pool. Use him to reduce bleeds wherever needed (with Telepathic Counter and Folderol), and have the rest of the deck be dom/nec bleed (or aus/nec vote with Telepathic Vote Counting if so inclined), with Le Dinh Tho and more auspex to strip your prey's defences. It's all good :). Regards, Patrick Columbus, OH

>I'd say: > >4 points of disciplines >2 points for special >-1 for drawback >From my observations, Scarce doesn't give extra points as much as it affects >the specialness of the special. > >So if you ignore the Scarce cost, you can end up with about 5 points. Doesn't this mean you are ignoring the drawback of scarceness on every level? Already giving 2 points for his special which means the compensation for scarceness isn't being factored in, then not counting it as worth anything on the other end. >>Raful al-Zarqa >>5 points of disciplines >>1 point of special >>-0.5 to -1 point for scarceness > >5 points of disciplines >1 point of special >As before, Scarceness affects the quality of the special. Generally, smaller >vampires don't get built-in stealth so perhaps the Scarceness penalty allows >her to have that ability at such a low capacity? Special is really good when taken in isolation. Add possessing Dominate and you'd think Raful would rock. But, the fool sucks. This is why I don't like the current, official point system. Overvalues excess disciplines. Undervalues superior disciplines. Raful would be about right with another inclan at superior, keeping or dropping the out of clan. >Similarly, with Kanimana you get 7 points of disciplines and a special. And >if >you allow Scarceness to apply to the uniqueness of the special, she comes out >right as well. Her special isn't good. I've tried a couple of decks built around it and discovered that increasing my hand size only caused me to want to increase it more. Generally would give up around a 10 card hand and would still be better off having The Barrens in play. >Generally speaking, same thing for the other Scarce vampires. That they get shafted on points? >Krassimir: 7 discipline points + special >Synesios: 8 discipline points + title + special (he actually ends up a little >ahead) >Nu: 9 discipline points + special (a little short but synergy may make up for >it) > >Miriam: 4 discipline points + two specials (point-wise a little ahead. But >the >inferior Obeah really hurts which is why she sees less play than the others). >Blanche Hill: 5 discipline points + special. Ignoring the Scarceness, on >track >for a 6-cap but the Scarceness compensates for her awesome ability. >Matthias: 7 points + 2 specials. Problem with scarcity as a disad is that it's either meaningless or it's like a 2+ point disad. Salubri end up okay if you never plan on bringing out more than one and if no one else plays one first. Trujah don't. Obeah has good synergy with the Salubri's other disciplines and has powerful effects. Temporis has powerful effects but poor synergy. Okay, quality of disciplines and quality of discipline spread doesn't go into points. But, on top of the difference in quality, the Trujah come in at lower point totals and have the significant additional disadvantage of not being able to Celeritize. It's my view that bloodline vampires as a whole weren't designed with the idea of being good vampires. A lot of pain comes from how awful some of the disciplines are. Some from brutal disads like infernal. But, even given these, outside of a small number of cases, there was little attempt to make bloodlines vampires compete with better existing vampires. And, there doesn't seem to be any attempt to compensate bloodlines for having a discipline or a discipline spread that is limited to a small number of crypt choices. Though sometimes a trivial disad, often not.

Curevei wrote: > This is why I don't like > the current, official point system. Overvalues excess disciplines. > Undervalues superior disciplines. The current point system is "official" only in that it is used as one check for balance. Discipline spread (or focus) is also used as another check (or, if you like, as a justification for exceeding or falling short of the "official" point system formula's number). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

cur...@aol.commetal writes: >Problem with scarcity as a disad is that it's >either meaningless or it's like a 2+ point disad. Which means scarcity should be treated as a 0-point disad. Vamps in general are costed for their "best use" (i.e. full price even for very hard-to-use discipline combos). Since, in "best use" scarcity is not a meaningful disad (when you use only one vamp of the clan) it shouldn't count for anything. That means the vamps "should" be overcosted for use in decks that use multiple vamps of the same scarce clan - but I think that's the point. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com) "It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson

Ye Olde Point System Debate >Curevei wrote: >> This is why I don't like >> the current, official point system. Overvalues excess disciplines. >> Undervalues superior disciplines. > >The current point system is "official" only in that it is used as one check >for balance. Discipline spread (or focus) is also used as another check (or, >if you like, as a justification for exceeding or falling short of the >"official" >point system formula's number). I think I see this at times when you don't print vampires like: FoS 5 OBF, PRE, ser But, if this check is in place all of the time, I don't see it being used effectively. My check on a point system is whether it correlates to how good a vampire is from experience, both my own and based on how often I see it played by others. Certainly not the greatest way to go, but not having it correlate suggests strongly a flawed system. Whatever total system you are using seems to think that vampires that aren't balanced against each other are.

>>Problem with scarcity as a disad is that it's >>either meaningless or it's like a 2+ point disad. > >Which means scarcity should be treated as a >0-point disad. Vamps in general are costed for >their "best use" (i.e. full price even for very >hard-to-use discipline combos). Since, in >"best use" scarcity is not a meaningful disad >(when you use only one vamp of the clan) it >shouldn't count for anything. That means the >vamps "should" be overcosted for use in >decks that use multiple vamps of the same >scarce clan - but I think that's the point. This only makes sense if scarcity only applied to what you bring out, right? I can't control my opponent bringing out a scarcie of my clan, which means I can get screwed randomly. Seems like more than a zero point disad. Then, it's something of a disad to have only one minion in play who can play certain cards at certain levels. So, I'm not seeing the best use being play only one. Even if you never bring out more than one, another will clog the uncontrolled region.

Curevei expounded: [ quoted text not captured ] Personally I don't think all vampires should see equal amounts of play or even be "equally powerful" -people should at least have the option of playing something that they know is going to be harder. I trust your not claiming Le Dinh Tho is underpowered?

cur...@aol.commetal writes: >This only makes sense if scarcity only applied >to what you bring out, right? I >can't control my opponent bringing out a scarcie >of my clan, which means I can >get screwed randomly. Seems like more than a >zero point disad. Well, even effects vs. major clans seem usually to be just color; with 20 major clans it's fairly infrequent that it ever makes a difference, so they usually have no cost/payback. An effect which only applies if somebody else in the game is playing a specific *bloodline* simply activates to rarely to justify any points. I've never seen 2 players with the same bloodline - I know it happens, but it's very rare. >Then, it's something of a disad to have >only one minion in play who can play >certain cards at certain levels. >So, I'm not seeing the best use being play >only one. Even if you never bring out >more than one, another will clog the >uncontrolled region. Well, "best use" would be a deck built on the assumption of getting one particular scarcie out. You could make an argument that some vamps just can't justify having a deck built around them, say Miriam, and such vamps would then be overcosted (scarce interferes with full use of their disciplines) But that kind of ultra-fine-tuning isn't really done. Matthias, Blanche, Synesios, and Nu certainly justify being deck backbones. Krassimir and Miriam, probably not. The Nagaraja have no unique discipline so it doesn't apply to them. [ quoted text not captured ]

>Personally I don't think all vampires should see equal amounts of play >or even be "equally powerful" -people should at least have the option of >playing something that they know is going to be harder. You don't think a CCG is more fun when there is more variety in competitive decks? I don't think you can make everything equal, but if you don't try, you end up with crap that no one plays. It's always possible to challenge oneself. Can do things like grafting Dementation on Gangrel or doing Daughters rush. What making bad cards does is reduce options not increase them. >I trust your not claiming Le Dinh Tho is underpowered? Overrated maybe, but no, not underpowered. Krassimir is underpowered. Jack Dawson is underpowered. Advanced Marcus, Elizabeth Westcott. Etc. Would have to look at CE vampires to name some, doesn't seem worth the effort when the idea should be clear.

> But that kind of ultra-fine-tuning isn't really > done. Matthias, Blanche, Synesios, and Nu > certainly justify being deck backbones. > Krassimir and Miriam, probably not. Stop underestimating Krassimir !! In the right decks, the guy can kick ass... Orpheus, who owes more than one GW to Krassimir.

> Well, there's one angle that Orpheus (my preferred source on Necro > matters) Thanks for that ! :-) > seems to have skipped over for now, which is Bartholomew. No, I just include him in this thread because he didn't seem "in-subject" for me : the original question from James O'Rance being "what do Nagaraja provide that a regular Giovanni deck couldn't?". > He's an 8-cap Kyasid, and by some fluke of nature has AUS dom MYT NEC > obt as his disciplines. He also has an amazing special: if he's > untapped at the start of your turn, you gain a pool. Use him to reduce > bleeds wherever needed (with Telepathic Counter and Folderol), and > have the rest of the deck be dom/nec bleed (or aus/nec vote with > Telepathic Vote Counting if so inclined), with Le Dinh Tho and more > auspex to strip your prey's defences. It's all good :). I agree that a deck based on Bart, a Nagaraja and some friends is a nice variant on the Aus / Nec / Dom theme. I would have trouble telling you the opposite, as I posted a deck of mine on the Necrosite : http://necrobones.free.fr/Death_Pact_Decks/Bart_Returns.htm. This is a post-CE version of an older (Bloodlines...) deck, and the Crypt includes : 3 Bartholomew AUS dom MYT NEC obt 8, Kiasyd 1 Beatrice L'Angou aus dom MYT nec 5, Kiasyd 1 Gillespi Giovanni aus DOM NEC POT 7, Giovanni 2 Ian Forestal AUS DOM THA 8, Tremere Antitribu 1 Isabel Giovanni DOM NEC pot 5, Giovanni 1 Kanimana Belghazi AUS DOM NEC pro 7, Nagaraja 2 Le Dinh Tho aus dom NEC 5, Nagaraja 1 Valois Sang AUS DOM nec tha 6, Tremere As for the TVC angle, I'm working on it right now (but it can't be Storyline valid, so it'll have to wait until after that...). Keep your bones warm. Any Necrofan is a friend of mine, ;-) Orpheus

Curevei wrote: > I don't think you can make everything equal, but if you don't try, you end up > with crap that no one plays. The current designer tries to make things equal. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, LSJ wrote: > The current designer tries to make things equal. This being Usenet, and the default voice being "screech", I just want to say that I think you've done a great job with the game, so please don't read any implicit criticism into this post. That said, how well do you feel your efforts have been successful? It's pretty clear that all Clans and Sects aren't equally competitive. Do you disagree? Is there some kind of master timetable in your head that will bring all the clans into parity? I would find it interesting to hear some of your thoughts with your "developer's hat" on, if it's the kind of thing you can share. David Cherryholmes Duke Radiology P.E.T. Facility (919) 684-7714 david.che...@duke.edu

David Cherryholmes wrote: > On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, LSJ wrote: > > >>The current designer tries to make things equal. > > > This being Usenet, and the default voice being "screech", I just want to > say that I think you've done a great job with the game, so please don't > read any implicit criticism into this post. > > That said, how well do you feel your efforts have been successful? It's > pretty clear that all Clans and Sects aren't equally competitive. Do you > disagree? Is there some kind of master timetable in your head that will Of course not. As has been noted already in this thread (by Curvei), achieving absolute equality is impossible. > bring all the clans into parity? I would find it interesting to hear some > of your thoughts with your "developer's hat" on, if it's the kind of thing > you can share. No timetables for anything, no. Disparities are addressed as they can be. Sorry it doesn't get much deeper than that. Design work tends to be more art than science (which is getting at the point of my earlier post in this thread that the "official formula" is not the only hook on which all vampire design is hung). As such, even if one person (designer or otherwise) felt that absolute equality had been achieved, others could certainly have valid claims to the contrary. [ quoted text not captured ]

sam...@hotmail.com (Patrick van der Reest) wrote in message news:<92081c66.0309...@posting.google.com>... <snip> > Regards, > > Patrick > Columbus, OH Patrick. 've been trying to mail you. Please mail me your address. Tx. Tobias Deventer

>> But that kind of ultra-fine-tuning isn't really >> done. Matthias, Blanche, Synesios, and Nu >> certainly justify being deck backbones. >> Krassimir and Miriam, probably not. > >Stop underestimating Krassimir !! In >the right decks, the guy can kick >ass... Guy? Don't you mean "individual whose gender is indeterminate?" =P Halcyan 2

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F6A4294...@white-wolf.com>... > Curevei wrote: > > I don't think you can make everything equal, but if you don't try, you end up > > with crap that no one plays. > > The current designer tries to make things equal. Good. To that end you should make some more vampires with obtenbration and animalism. My animalism/obtenebration deck sucks. And while you are at make some more cool ravnos. Maybe kill two birds with one stone and make a cool ranvos with obtenebration. And also send me an engraved plaque and free cards ... and a birthday cake.

>To that end you should make some more vampires with obtenbration >and animalism. My animalism/obtenebration deck sucks. Mine ended up a lot better than expected. Someone who borrowed it thought it had problems. Maybe I just had really low expectations and found the amusement factor high enough. Deck Name: Shadow Beasts Created By: Luther Description: Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 17, Max: 23, Avg: 5.00) ---------------------------------------------- 3 Luther ANI for obt pro 6, Gangrel Antitribu 1 Bobby Lemon ANI pro 4, Gangrel 1 Lord Ashton ANI for pro 5, Gangrel 2 Josef ani obf obt 4, Nosferatu Antitribu 1 Nigel the Shunned ANI obf POT 5, Nosferatu Antitribu 1 Calebros ANI obf pot 5, Nosferatu, Prince 2 Gemini ani OBF obt pot 5, Nosferatu 1 Devin Bisley ANI AUS vic 5, Tzimisce Library: (80 cards) ------------------- Master (15 cards) 1 Animalism 5 Blood Doll 1 Club Zombie 2 Effective Management 5 Obtenebration 1 Rumor Mill, Tabloid Newspaper, The Action (12 cards) 5 Computer Hacking 6 Shadow Twin 1 Shepherd's Innocence Action Modifier (7 cards) 3 Shadow Play 4 Shroud of Night Reaction (15 cards) 4 Cats' Guidance 5 Eyes of the Night 3 Forced Awakening 3 Wake with Evening's Freshness Combat (27 cards) 11 Aid from Bats 2 Arms of the Abyss 3 Canine Horde 7 Carrion Crows 4 Taste of Vitae Retainer (4 cards) 4 Raven Spy

cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20030919140507...@mb-m20.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] So let me get this right, the only cards you have that are Obt are Shadow twin, a handful of stealth and interecept cards and a couple of Arms of the Abyss? That's 15 cards total! Why didn't you go for broke and throw in some Entombments for the combat - the most fun, if nothing else a War Ghoul smacker. AS it stands, bearing in mind the crypt, you could almost do the same with Tier of Souls, some Obfuscate stealth, some Ahrimanes intercept and a couple of dodges. Roughly the same thing for better card economy too. Dave

cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote: > Mine ended up a lot better than expected. Someone who borrowed it thought it > had problems. Maybe I just had really low expectations and found the amusement > factor high enough. How about moving the focus to !Gangrel, and add Protean to third Discipline (Luther, Bobby and Ashton have it already). These suggestions base on that. > > Deck Name: Shadow Beasts > Created By: Luther > Description: > > Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 17, Max: 23, Avg: 5.00) > ---------------------------------------------- > 3 Luther ANI for obt pro 6, Gangrel Antitribu > 1 Bobby Lemon ANI pro 4, Gangrel > 1 Lord Ashton ANI for pro 5, Gangrel > 2 Josef ani obf obt 4, Nosferatu Antitribu > 1 Nigel the Shunned ANI obf POT 5, Nosferatu Antitribu > 1 Calebros ANI obf pot 5, Nosferatu, Prince > 2 Gemini ani OBF obt pot 5, Nosferatu Replace Gemini with 2x Caitlin: ANI PRO and one vote. > 1 Devin Bisley ANI AUS vic 5, Tzimisce Replace with Aaron Duggan to general purposes, such as dying for the greater good. > Library: (80 cards) 90? > ------------------- > Master (15 cards) > 1 Animalism Cut- > 5 Blood Doll > 1 Club Zombie Could be Campground Hunting Ground > 2 Effective Management > 5 Obtenebration > 1 Rumor Mill, Tabloid Newspaper, The 2x Society of Leopold would be nice with Shadow Twin. > > Action (12 cards) > 5 Computer Hacking > 6 Shadow Twin > 1 Shepherd's Innocence > > Action Modifier (7 cards) > 3 Shadow Play > 4 Shroud of Night > > Reaction (15 cards) > 4 Cats' Guidance > 5 Eyes of the Night > 3 Forced Awakening > 3 Wake with Evening's Freshness > > Combat (27 cards) > 11 Aid from Bats > 2 Arms of the Abyss > 3 Canine Horde > 7 Carrion Crows > 4 Taste of Vitae Why send the opposing minions to Torpor? Try to Burn the instead: add some Scorpion Stings and Claws of the Dead, cut some Aid from Bats and perhaps 1 Canine Horde. Shadow Step is also nice, if you have them. Makes the combat more complicated, but playing ANI/OBT is playing with High Stakes already. It seems that there is no room for Fleas of Marble, but that could save your minion, when opposing minion Maneuvers to close and Grapples after your Aid from Bats. > > Retainer (4 cards) > 4 Raven Spy 1 Mr. Winthrop? (also for contesting purposes) -Antero

"Jeff Haar" <kit3...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:6933e80c.03091...@posting.google.com... > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3F6A4294...@white-wolf.com>... > > Curevei wrote: > > > I don't think you can make everything equal, but if you don't try, you end up > > > with crap that no one plays. > > > > The current designer tries to make things equal. > > Good. To that end you should make some more vampires with obtenbration > and animalism. If we're onto suggestions for more alternate Discipline combos, I'd like to see more: Ani/Tha Pre/Pro Pro/Tha Cel/Vic Pot/Qui Qui/Vic Tha/Vic :)

> If we're onto suggestions for more alternate Discipline combos, I'd like to > see more: > > Ani/Tha > Pre/Pro > Pro/Tha > Cel/Vic > Pot/Qui > Qui/Vic > Tha/Vic > > :) Myt/Nec !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Orpheus

> > Ani/Tha > > Pre/Pro > > Pro/Tha > > Cel/Vic > > Pot/Qui > > Qui/Vic > > Tha/Vic > > > > :) > > Myt/Nec !!!!!!!!!!!!!! I meant, of course, as dual-discipline... Sorry if it was kind of out-of-subject, but I feel like this really is the missing link for the Kiasyd. > Orpheus

nom...@jippii.fi (AL) wrote in message news:<ea6a080a.03092...@posting.google.com>... > > How about moving the focus to !Gangrel, and add Protean to third > Discipline (Luther, Bobby and Ashton have it already). These > suggestions base on that. No, no, no. Keep the animalism/obtenebration pure! I was going to run light intercept and wierd long range combat but every time I build the deck I want to cry. The real problem is certainly the crypt. As I observe, the crypt is what makes a deck. If you can get a decent crypt together for any skill set you can make a resonable deck. A-la, serpentis/auspex/fortitude. The crypt is high capacity but you have some minions to pick from and can force in some lower caps.

"Orpheus" <orph...@free.fr> wrote in message news:<3f6ee53d$0$28901$626a...@news.free.fr>... [ quoted text not captured ] Let's not forget Aus/Nec as a dual-discipline combo. I could imagine a neat card like: Nether Voices Reaction, 1 blood aus/nec Only usuable against a non-directed action. Untap and attempt to block, with +1 intercept. AUS/NEC Only usuable against a non-directed action. Untap and attempt to block, with +1 intercept. This vampire can Combat Ends as a strike on the first round of combat (if any). What do you think? Regards, Patrick Columbus, OH PS. I claim no copyright or anything on this card idea. White Wolf is encouraged to use it at their leisure :)

Patrick van der Reest expounded: > "Orpheus" <orph...@free.fr> wrote in message news:<3f6ee53d$0$28901$626a...@news.free.fr>... > > > > Ani/Tha > > > > Pre/Pro > > > > Pro/Tha > > > > Cel/Vic > > > > Pot/Qui > > > > Qui/Vic > > > > Tha/Vic > > > > > > > > :) > > > > > > Myt/Nec !!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > I meant, of course, as dual-discipline... Sorry if it was kind of > > out-of-subject, but I feel like this really is the missing link for the > > Kiasyd. > > > > Let's not forget Aus/Nec as a dual-discipline combo. I could imagine a > neat card like: > > Nether Voices > Reaction, 1 blood > > aus/nec Only usuable against a non-directed action. Untap and attempt > to block, with +1 intercept. > AUS/NEC Only usuable against a non-directed action. Untap and attempt > to block, with +1 intercept. This vampire can Combat Ends as a strike > on the first round of combat (if any). > > What do you think? How about: if the block is successful there is no combat? > PS. I claim no copyright or anything on this card idea. White Wolf is > encouraged to use it at their leisure :) Nor do i:-)

kit3...@yahoo.com (Jeff Haar) wrote in message news:<6933e80c.03092...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] That is why I suggested adding some Protean: a dominate/obfuscate deck is still a dom/obf deck even if it has some Auspex cards. I tried ani/obt today (it had 6 Protean cards: 4 Claws and 2 Flesh of Marble) It worked acceptably, scoring 1 vp. Highlight: Josef entombs Moncada after a successful block. Downfall: hapless Josef burned in blood hunt after eating the fat man. -Antero

>Let's not forget Aus/Nec as a dual-discipline combo. I could imagine a >neat card like: > >Nether Voices >Reaction, 1 blood > >aus/nec Only usuable against a non-directed action. Untap and attempt >to block, with +1 intercept. >AUS/NEC Only usuable against a non-directed action. Untap and attempt >to block, with +1 intercept. This vampire can Combat Ends as a strike >on the first round of combat (if any). > >What do you think? I'm not fond of cards that just roll together effects already available. Game should expand. That's only going to come about with novel concepts. Not that I have a good idea what novel concepts would work well in this game. For instance, from a thematic standpoint, I could see an Aus/Nec card instead doing something like - Action Cost = 0 <aus+nec>: +1 stealth action. Look at target player's hand and choose a card in that player's hand. That player shuffles the chosen card into his or her library. <AUS+NEC>: +1 stealth action. Put this card into play. Any vampire with Aus and Nec may perform the <aus+nec> action above. Would have some similar use to Revelations, possibly too similar to be worth its existence. Actually, might be more useful to unjam someone's hand, including your own. Problem is that's just not interesting, not terribly useful (certainly not useful enough to be help to Nagaraja and HoS), and likely obnoxious, if possibly only due to the action(s) eating up time. I don't know. On the one hand, I don't want to see the *game* unbalanced. On the other, it really needs fresh mechanics that are strong enough to change the balance of the *environment*.

"Timlagor" <Timlagor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:MPG.19d93d25d...@news.freeserve.com... > Patrick van der Reest expounded: > > "Orpheus" <orph...@free.fr> wrote in message news:<3f6ee53d$0$28901$626a...@news.free.fr>... > > > > > Ani/Tha > > > > > Pre/Pro > > > > > Pro/Tha > > > > > Cel/Vic > > > > > Pot/Qui > > > > > Qui/Vic > > > > > Tha/Vic > > > > > > > > > > :) > > > > > > > > Myt/Nec !!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > > > I meant, of course, as dual-discipline... Sorry if it was kind of > > > out-of-subject, but I feel like this really is the missing link for the > > > Kiasyd. > > > > > > > Let's not forget Aus/Nec as a dual-discipline combo. I was actually talking more about Discipline combinations to be found on new vampires in future sets. There's a whole load of stuff that would be cool to try, but it's not yet viable because there are only a few (or none) with the combo at the moment. Regards, Mike