Hello all,
I've been reading this newsgroup for a little while now. My friends and
I have been playing Jyhad since it was actually called Jyhad, but stopped
for a long while until recently. The new expansion, Dark Sovereign, was
a great incentive for us to get back to it. However, we've come upon a
couple of questions/instances that we would like to have clarified,
hopefully officially, but really any informed answers would be wonderful.
About non-Camarilla not being able to call Praxis Seizures. At first I
was against this, but after a little bit of discussion with my fellow
players, we could see the point of it. Since the Giovanni and Ravnos are
not part of the Camarilla, why would they get voting say in Camarilla
politics? This was fine for us, allowing the Giovanni the few cards and
such that do allow them votes for any votes called and all. But then I
came across Praxis Seizure: Vienna (I believe that's the one). In it,
successful vote makes the acting vampire Prince of Vienna. However, the
text goes on to say that all Giovanni have one extra vote towards the
outcome, and that if the acting vampire is not a Giovanni, then all
Giovanni are tapped. Now, how can a Giovanni call this vote if
non-Camarilla are not allowed to call Praxis Seizures??? I've seen a
number of card erratas, but that has not been on one yet. Should we just
ignore the bit about if a Giovanni calls the vote and just hose all the
Giovanni in play right away? I also find myself arguing that if
non-Camarilla can become Primogen, then why the heck can they not become
Princes? True, I will admit that such would be very, very unlikely in
the RPG, but considering the Primogen is usually the power behind the
Prince, I can't see why it is that far a stretch to have a non-Camarilla
take such a role.
Another question is more of a clarification of the rules, as it is not
clearly stated, at least to our satisfaction. With contested titles, it
has been argued to me that those contesting the titles can still cast
votes. The argument being that both sides have their supporters, and
thus an impetus behind the votes they cast. I myself believe that the
title is in limbo until one yields, and then whoever ends up with the
title may then cast votes. What are other people's take on this?
Thanks for listening, and I hope you can help clarify these nagging
questions.
Chris, lover of Tremere and Thaumaturgy
About your question with the Giovanni. there is a card floating around
out there called Giovanni Acceptence. this is a political card that
gives Giovanni Camarilla status. Now they can be princes all they want.
Your other question about contested titles. I believe that both princes
o whomever are flipped over and do not get thier votes until one princes
gives up her title.
Everett Littles Cal Poly SLO Business MIS
http://www.calpoly.edu/~elittles/park.html
Clan Ravnos Home Page
Julianne Jolie <yu12...@yorku.ca> wrote:
>But then I came across Praxis Seizure: Vienna. In it,>successful vote makes the acting vampire Prince of Vienna. However, the
>text goes on to say that all Giovanni have one extra vote towards the
>outcome, and that if the acting vampire is not a Giovanni, then all
>Giovanni are tapped. Now, how can a Giovanni call this vote if>non-Camarilla are not allowed to call Praxis Seizures???...
They can't call the vote if they don't count as Camarilla. However, non-
Camarilla vampires can cast votes during any political action, whether they
could have taken that action or not, so if another vampire plays PS: Venice,
all ready Giovanni get their extra vote.
Also, Giovanni Acceptance makes all Giovanni Camarilla, allowing them to
call Praxis Seizures and such.
>Another question is more of a clarification of the rules, as it is not
>clearly stated, at least to our satisfaction. With contested titles, it
>has been argued to me that those contesting the titles can still cast
>votes. The argument being that both sides have their supporters, and
>thus an impetus behind the votes they cast. I myself believe that the
>title is in limbo until one yields, and then whoever ends up with the
>title may then cast votes. What are other people's take on this?
The title does not provide its votes (or any other benefits) while it
is contested. A Prince whose title is contested can't use the various
traditions, for example.
Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
In article <4nmir1$7...@sunburst.ccs.yorku.ca>, yu12...@yorku.ca (Julianne
Jolie) wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I've been reading this newsgroup for a little while now. My friends and
> I have been playing Jyhad since it was actually called Jyhad, but stopped
> for a long while until recently. The new expansion, Dark Sovereign, was
> a great incentive for us to get back to it. However, we've come upon a
> couple of questions/instances that we would like to have clarified,
> hopefully officially, but really any informed answers would be wonderful.
OK.
> About non-Camarilla not being able to call Praxis Seizures. At first I
> was against this, but after a little bit of discussion with my fellow
> players, we could see the point of it. Since the Giovanni and Ravnos are
> not part of the Camarilla, why would they get voting say in Camarilla
> politics? This was fine for us, allowing the Giovanni the few cards and
> such that do allow them votes for any votes called and all. But then I> came across Praxis Seizure: Vienna (I believe that's the one). In it,> successful vote makes the acting vampire Prince of Vienna. However, the
> text goes on to say that all Giovanni have one extra vote towards the
> outcome, and that if the acting vampire is not a Giovanni, then all
> Giovanni are tapped. Now, how can a Giovanni call this vote if> non-Camarilla are not allowed to call Praxis Seizures??? I've seen a
> number of card erratas, but that has not been on one yet. Should we just
> ignore the bit about if a Giovanni calls the vote and just hose all the
> Giovanni in play right away? I also find myself arguing that if
> non-Camarilla can become Primogen, then why the heck can they not become
> Princes? True, I will admit that such would be very, very unlikely in
> the RPG, but considering the Primogen is usually the power behind the
> Prince, I can't see why it is that far a stretch to have a non-Camarilla
> take such a role.
I haven't figured out the jusstification there... what strikes me as even
stranger is that Caitiff are in the reverse position from Giovanni and
Ravnos--they can never be Primogen, but *can* be Princes!
And as for the PS-Venice (there is no PS-Vienna), there is also a card
called Giovanni Acceptance that makes the Giovanni a Camarilla clan on a
successful vote. (There's Ravnos Acceptance too.)
> Another question is more of a clarification of the rules, as it is not
> clearly stated, at least to our satisfaction. With contested titles, it
> has been argued to me that those contesting the titles can still cast
> votes. The argument being that both sides have their supporters, and
> thus an impetus behind the votes they cast. I myself believe that the
> title is in limbo until one yields, and then whoever ends up with the
> title may then cast votes. What are other people's take on this?
Neither vampire counts as having the title during the contest. (This also
means you can't use Command of the Harpies or Wrath of the Inner Circle on
someone who's contesting a praxis or a justicariat.)
J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com>
PGP keys by request
Everett Littles (elit...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu) wrote:
: About your question with the Giovanni. there is a card floating around: out there called Giovanni Acceptence. this is a political card that
: gives Giovanni Camarilla status. Now they can be princes all they want.
Ah, I see ... guess I just have to buy more cards then :) Thanks.
: Your other question about contested titles. I believe that both princes: o whomever are flipped over and do not get thier votes until one princes
: gives up her title.
By the older Jyhad rules, it may have been this way, as it followed the
Contested vampire rules. But by the newer VTES rules, the vampires are
allowed to remain in play and perform actions normally, hence the problem
with wanting to know if titles stay in effect.
Chris
: Everett Littles Cal Poly SLO Business MIS[ quoted text not captured ]
On 22 May 1996, Julianne Jolie wrote:
>
> By the older Jyhad rules, it may have been this way, as it followed the
> Contested vampire rules. But by the newer VTES rules, the vampires are
> allowed to remain in play and perform actions normally, hence the problem
> with wanting to know if titles stay in effect.
The old Jyhad rules and the VTES rules are both the same on this
subject. The vampires that are contesting a title remain in play and
face up, ie- still able to perform actions. However, since the title is
contested neither of them get the votes that come with said title. Also,
during the untap phase of the person who controls a vampire that is
contesting a title, that vampire must burn one blood or forfeit the title
to the other vampire.
On Wed, 22 May 1996, Woody Carey wrote:
> The old Jyhad rules and the VTES rules are both the same on this
> subject. The vampires that are contesting a title remain in play and
> face up, ie- still able to perform actions. However, since the title is
> contested neither of them get the votes that come with said title. Also,
> during the untap phase of the person who controls a vampire that is
> contesting a title, that vampire must burn one blood or forfeit the title
> to the other vampire.
Alright , this is cool because I did not know this but quick question.
What happens when one vampire does not have blood to burn. It the
vampire burned, go into torpor, or just lose the title
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <Pine.A32.3.91.960523...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu>,
Everett Littles <elit...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 22 May 1996, Woody Carey wrote:>> during the untap phase of the person who controls a vampire that is
>> contesting a title, that vampire must burn one blood or forfeit the title
>> to the other vampire.>>What happens when one vampire does not have blood to burn. It the
>vampire burned, go into torpor, or just lose the title
From the VtES rulebook:
15.1. Contested Titles
2) Blood paid for the contest during the untap phase is paid by the
vampire, not from your pool. If a vampire is not able to pay this
cost, she is sent to torpor.
<...>
A vampire in torpor must yield a contested title during his untap phase.
So, the vamp can choose to yield, or may go to torpor and be forced
to yield. Not much of a choice, eh?
Everett Littles (elit...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu) wrote:
: On Wed, 22 May 1996, Woody Carey wrote:: > The old Jyhad rules and the VTES rules are both the same on this: > subject. The vampires that are contesting a title remain in play and
: > face up, ie- still able to perform actions. However, since the title is
: > contested neither of them get the votes that come with said title. Also,: > during the untap phase of the person who controls a vampire that is: > contesting a title, that vampire must burn one blood or forfeit the title
: > to the other vampire.: Alright , this is cool because I did not know this but quick question.
: What happens when one vampire does not have blood to burn. It the: vampire burned, go into torpor, or just lose the title
That falls into the category of "that vampire must burn one blood OR forfeit
the title to the other vampire". In other words, if you can't do one, you
gotta do the other...
-spongy
On Thu, 23 May 1996, Everett Littles wrote:
> On Wed, 22 May 1996, Woody Carey wrote:
> > The old Jyhad rules and the VTES rules are both the same on this
> > subject. The vampires that are contesting a title remain in play and
> > face up, ie- still able to perform actions. However, since the title is
> > contested neither of them get the votes that come with said title. Also,
> > during the untap phase of the person who controls a vampire that is
> > contesting a title, that vampire must burn one blood or forfeit the title
> > to the other vampire.
>
> Alright , this is cool because I did not know this but quick question.
> What happens when one vampire does not have blood to burn. It the
> vampire burned, go into torpor, or just lose the title
If a vampire that is contesting a title with another has no blood to burn
during its controller's untap phase that vampire must automatically
forfeit that title to the other vampire that it is contesting with. The
vampire does not go to torpor as far as I know, but simply forfeits the
title in question.
On the subject of Camarilla, clans, et al:
I apologise if what I am about to say is already known by the
enquirer, but IMHO these questions that arise regarding the posession of
Camarilla titles all derive from the ignorance of the true meaning of the
Camarilla, and of the clans.
The clan is a blood characteristic, not a political one. The clan that
said vampire belongs is the same of the vampire who made (embraced) him.
The exception is, in some cases, the Caitiff who, because of a mishap on
the act of the embrace (or the lack of potence of the blood of the
'progenitor'[sire]) are the victims of the creation of a 'colourless'
vampire, that hasn't the characteristics of any clan.
The Camarilla is a vampirical organization that has risen in
order to 'contain' the threat to vampires by hiding from the populace and
at the same time merge with it. It's power is recognized by many
vampires, and it's structure can be loosely described as:
An Inner Circle, composed by the founders of the Camarilla -- The
Dark Sovereigns.
7 Justicars, one for each clan (remember, Caitiff are not a clan),
that serve as 'judges' for the lower ranks (princes, etc.)
Princes are elected to rule a city, answering only to the
primogen (their councellors) and to the higher powers (justicars, etc.).
This title is (in the card game, and theoretically on the RPG as well)
not restricted to clan (so a Caitiff can become a prince).
Primogen members surround the prince of a city. On each city
there may be only one primogen of said clan. In the card game there is no
indication of the city that the primogen belongs, so this is redundant.
The only relevant fact is that Caitiff, the clanless are never Primogen
memebers.
Now, note that all these titles are awarded by the Camarilla. All
other independents, although passible of suffering the effects of their
politics, may not be part of them (unless accepted). As a side note I'd
like to remind you that the influence (votes) that are cast on the
assemblys may be from non-Camarilla vampires, since unless there are
contrary instructions they can participate on the sessions.
On Thu, 23 May 1996, Everett Littles wrote:
> On Wed, 22 May 1996, Woody Carey wrote:
> > The old Jyhad rules and the VTES rules are both the same on this
> > subject. The vampires that are contesting a title remain in play and
> > face up, ie- still able to perform actions. However, since the title is
> > contested neither of them get the votes that come with said title. Also,
> > during the untap phase of the person who controls a vampire that is
> > contesting a title, that vampire must burn one blood or forfeit the title
> > to the other vampire.
>
> Alright , this is cool because I did not know this but quick question.
> What happens when one vampire does not have blood to burn. It the
> vampire burned, go into torpor, or just lose the title
>
It will lose the title, as stated in the rules ;)
David Pontes
8[
David Pontes (l41...@alfa.ist.utl.pt) wrote:
: On the subject of Camarilla, clans, et al:: I apologise if what I am about to say is already known by the
: enquirer, but IMHO these questions that arise regarding the posession of
: Camarilla titles all derive from the ignorance of the true meaning of the
: Camarilla, and of the clans.
I guess I was the original inquirer, but a couple of other questions have
spawned off from that. At any rate, I actually don't have any ignorance
to the meaning of the Camarilla, though I do admit that I have not read
everything there is on the subject. I am an avid player of Vampire: The
Masquerade, and had ran a campaign for a good three years. For me, at
least, it's not ignorance more as a different interpretation of the politics.
: The clan is a blood characteristic, not a political one. The clan that: said vampire belongs is the same of the vampire who made (embraced) him.
: The exception is, in some cases, the Caitiff who, because of a mishap on
: the act of the embrace (or the lack of potence of the blood of the
: 'progenitor'[sire]) are the victims of the creation of a 'colourless'
: vampire, that hasn't the characteristics of any clan.
:
: The Camarilla is a vampirical organization that has risen in
: order to 'contain' the threat to vampires by hiding from the populace and
: at the same time merge with it. It's power is recognized by many
: vampires, and it's structure can be loosely described as:: An Inner Circle, composed by the founders of the Camarilla -- The
: Dark Sovereigns.: 7 Justicars, one for each clan (remember, Caitiff are not a clan),
: that serve as 'judges' for the lower ranks (princes, etc.): Princes are elected to rule a city, answering only to the
: primogen (their councellors) and to the higher powers (justicars, etc.).
: This title is (in the card game, and theoretically on the RPG as well)
: not restricted to clan (so a Caitiff can become a prince).
And answering to anyone who can pound their head in :)
But yes, I do agree with everything you've listed above. The original
question came up because of a Praxis Seizure card that seemed to affect
Giovanni with no way of defending against it. I was quickly set
straight, as I had not realized that there was a Giovanni Acceptance card
to make the Giovanni part of the Camarilla.
It had just been my thinking that yes, the independant clans are not part
of the Camarilla, but that doesn't mean that there aren't those from such
clans who have joined the Camarilla. Heck, there are even Lasombra and
Tzimisces within the Camarilla, thought they are very rare indeed, and I
doubt trusted one iota. It just seemed reasonable to me that Giovanni
would be involved in city politics, and be able to persuade various
primogen to become Prince. But I do understand how a balance was needed,
and the fact that the independents can join with the Camarilla has
greatly satisfied me. It is interesting to note that the scum of the
scum, Caitiff, could actually rise to the position of a Prince (at least
by the thinking of Vampires). Of course, that's better than the time I
had Navar McClaren beating on my head, after being made an Archon and
Camarilla Exemplary ... yikes! :)
: Primogen members surround the prince of a city. On each city: there may be only one primogen of said clan. In the card game there is no
: indication of the city that the primogen belongs, so this is redundant.
: The only relevant fact is that Caitiff, the clanless are never Primogen
: memebers.: Now, note that all these titles are awarded by the Camarilla. All
: other independents, although passible of suffering the effects of their
: politics, may not be part of them (unless accepted). As a side note I'd
: like to remind you that the influence (votes) that are cast on the
: assemblys may be from non-Camarilla vampires, since unless there are
: contrary instructions they can participate on the sessions.
A question then arises ... does this mean I cannot use Of Noble Blood on
a non-Camarilla vampire? I guess I'm just more forgiving of the
independents, and see them dabbling with the Camarilla if it suits them.
I wouldn't mind a ruling on this one, as I had once nearly made a
Giovanni a Primogen. I could argue that the Primogen are the movers and
shakers behind the politics of a city, and that interested non-Camarilla
may want their say. But it would seem more reasonable to say that like
Praxis Seizures, the Of Noble Blood can only be used by those of the
Camarilla.
Chris, lover of Tremere
Julianne Jolie (yu12...@yorku.ca) wrote:
: A question then arises ... does this mean I cannot use Of Noble Blood on: a non-Camarilla vampire? I guess I'm just more forgiving of the
: independents, and see them dabbling with the Camarilla if it suits them.
: I wouldn't mind a ruling on this one, as I had once nearly made a
: Giovanni a Primogen. I could argue that the Primogen are the movers and
: shakers behind the politics of a city, and that interested non-Camarilla
: may want their say. But it would seem more reasonable to say that like
: Praxis Seizures, the Of Noble Blood can only be used by those of the
: Camarilla.
Actually, it was ruled right at the beginning that Non-Cams COULD become
Primogen.
-James
On 28 May 1996, Julianne Jolie wrote:
> David Pontes (l41...@alfa.ist.utl.pt) wrote:
>
> : On the subject of Camarilla, clans, et al:
>> I guess I was the original inquirer, but a couple of other questions have
> spawned off from that. At any rate, I actually don't have any ignorance
> to the meaning of the Camarilla, though I do admit that I have not read
> everything there is on the subject. I am an avid player of Vampire: The
> Masquerade, and had ran a campaign for a good three years. For me, at
> least, it's not ignorance more as a different interpretation of the politics.
>
I'm glad you didn't found the term 'ignorant' derrogative :) I read the
post later and thought that there could be some misinterpretations... :)
There *is* ignorance, though... some people that play the game
are not V:tM players, and are somewhat muddled with the how's and why's
of the game. (sorry if I wasn't clear, but I believe you get the
picture... try writing this in Portuguese if you wish... to see how nice
it gets sometimes... (: ). I intended to help those people a little...
> : Princes are elected to rule a city, answering only to the
> : primogen (their councellors) and to the higher powers (justicars, etc.).
> : This title is (in the card game, and theoretically on the RPG as well)
> : not restricted to clan (so a Caitiff can become a prince).
>
> And answering to anyone who can pound their head in :)
Yup :) Princes are the ones with more obvious power (being in
chrge of a territory), and so are more inclined to be in trouble (you
already know this, I'm sure, but once again.. (: )
> But yes, I do agree with everything you've listed above. The original
> question came up because of a Praxis Seizure card that seemed to affect
> Giovanni with no way of defending against it. I was quickly set
> straight, as I had not realized that there was a Giovanni Acceptance card
> to make the Giovanni part of the Camarilla.
I found the whole praxis seizure: Venice card quite ingenious!
(well, we shouldn't just point out the bad things, you know...). It's
good thinking of the consequences that result from the Camarilla
controllin *the* Giovanni city (each one has a vote, tap everyone if the
vote passes). Don't you think? :)
>
> : Primogen members surround the prince of a city. On each city
> : there may be only one primogen of said clan. In the card game there is no
> : indication of the city that the primogen belongs, so this is redundant.
> : The only relevant fact is that Caitiff, the clanless are never Primogen
> : memebers.
>> A question then arises ... does this mean I cannot use Of Noble Blood on
> a non-Camarilla vampire? I guess I'm just more forgiving of the
> independents, and see them dabbling with the Camarilla if it suits them.
> I wouldn't mind a ruling on this one, as I had once nearly made a
> Giovanni a Primogen. I could argue that the Primogen are the movers and
> shakers behind the politics of a city, and that interested non-Camarilla
> may want their say. But it would seem more reasonable to say that like
> Praxis Seizures, the Of Noble Blood can only be used by those of the
> Camarilla.
>
IMHO, Non-Camarilla are not entitled to become primogen for the
same reason that they cannot become princes. The proof of this is that
there is no primogen of any of the non-cam clans (at least up to now).
But who am I to argue with the rules team, uh? ;)
Can they at least say *why* are non-cam allowed to be Primogen?
It wold calm me down to know that :)
David Pontes
8[