Marthe Dizier

Marthe Dizier 10 AUS CEL OBF PRE pro Black Hand When a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a blood to move a card she played during that combat to your hand. +1 bleed. If Marthe has played a Psyche! in a combat that is about to end, can I use her special to retrieve the Psyche! and immediately play it again?

DenAlex wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] No. Psyche! (superior) is not played during combat. It is played after. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<9x31d.583372$Gx4.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > DenAlex wrote: > > > Marthe Dizier > > 10 > > AUS CEL OBF PRE pro > > Black Hand When a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a blood > > to move a card she played during that combat to your hand. +1 bleed. > > > > If Marthe has played a Psyche! in a combat that is about to end, can I > > use her special to retrieve the Psyche! and immediately play it again? > > No. Psyche! (superior) is not played during combat. It is played after. is this the right answer, lsj? the way i read the original post, they may be asking: if marthe has (already) played a psyche! (inferiorly, to press) in a combat that is about to end, can i use her special to retrieve the psyche! and immediately play it again? then, it becomes that nasty mishmash of things that directly follow combat, and which ones have time to work or which ones cancel which other ones (cf. rotschreck, continuing actions, etc.) and therefore, it's a good question that's not immediately obvious (to me anyway.) pores full of spores

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<9x31d.583372$Gx4.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > DenAlex wrote: > > > Marthe Dizier > > 10 > > AUS CEL OBF PRE pro > > Black Hand When a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a blood > > to move a card she played during that combat to your hand. +1 bleed. > > > > If Marthe has played a Psyche! in a combat that is about to end, can I > > use her special to retrieve the Psyche! and immediately play it again? > > No. Psyche! (superior) is not played during combat. It is played after. Huh? Psyche! card text says "at the end of a combat". Has'nt it been ruled that "at the end of an action" means while the action is ending, and not after the action? (as opposed to for instance Daring the Dawn, "after the action is complete". Why should this be different? (Playing it when the combat is ending, not AFTER it has ended?) Besides Psyche! is a combat card. How can it be played after combat is over, when the rules say combat cards can only be played in combat?

> No. Psyche! (superior) is not played during combat. It is played after. Let me rephrase: In a combat she played a Psyche! (inferior) and when combat is ending I use her special to retrieve the Psyche! Then when combat has fully ended can I then use the Psyche! to start a new combat?

[ quoted text not captured ] Doesn't that just mean she's a talented "cleaner" and "cleans up" problems (ie combat) and is resourceful, talented and well enough connected to give her controller extra options for the future (eg she can pull off the jobs that others fail.) Like the cleaner in the movie Pulp Fiction.) The skill set looks right for the job: esp, speed, sneaky/quiet, impressive/coolhead and some protean in for fun. And the BlackHand are the strike force/mafia for the sabbat so a cleaner would be on the cards. Otherwise it could just say "infinite presses for free" on her card, which is a little more than yer average 10 pointer.

"DenAlex" wrote >Psyche! Then when combat has fully ended can I then >use the Psyche! to start a new combat? A Press isn't a new combat is it? The combat is ended as no more presses are played (thus ending the press phase) then the card is recovered to your hand. Some new D action or some other blocked event would be needed to initiate the next combat. I'm not offering a solution, I'm asking if this is the right thought line. thanks, carl

spore...@hotmail.com (spinney99) wrote in message news:<27f52a52.04091...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] If you ask me, LSJ is right, because the original question implied Psyche superior, by saying "If Marthe has played a Psyche! in a combat that is about to end..." so this about to end implies Psyche! superior. Anyway, i believe that Marthe can't retrieve a Psyche! played at the superior, but can retrieve a Psyche! played for press and immediately play it at superior level. Henry Taylor can retrieve a Psyche! played at the superior level. Finaly, i have a question about things that take place after combat and things that take place after the end of an action. Corect me if i am wrong: When combat ends it is also the end of the round and you can play cards that can be played at the end of a round e.g. taste, disarm, decapitate e.t.c. Combat ends and action ends are different steps, so i cannot play a Psyche! superior after i replace my bum's rush, because bum's rush is not replaced until the end of the action, so if i could play Psyche! superior after replacing bum's rush, then i would restart a combat after the end of the action, so a combat which is not part of an action, so a thing that is not possible, correct ? in other words, after combat ends, action ends, but it is not the same time window, right ? e.g. i cannot freak drive and then play Psyche! to restart combat, but i can play cat's guidance and the play psyche! to restart, right ? It is something like step1: combat ends, step2: action ends, right ?

"Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message news:c6a50f81.04091...@posting.google.com... > spore...@hotmail.com (spinney99) wrote in message news:<27f52a52.04091...@posting.google.com>... > > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<9x31d.583372$Gx4.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > > > DenAlex wrote: > > > > Black Hand When a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a blood > > > > to move a card she played during that combat to your hand. +1 bleed. > > > > > > > > If Marthe has played a Psyche! in a combat that is about to end, can I > > > > use her special to retrieve the Psyche! and immediately play it again? > > > > > > No. Psyche! (superior) is not played during combat. It is played after. > > > > is this the right answer, lsj? > > the way i read the original post, they may be asking: > > if marthe has (already) played a psyche! (inferiorly, to press) in a > > combat that is about to end, can i use her special to retrieve the > > psyche! and immediately play it again? > > then, it becomes that nasty mishmash of things that directly follow > > combat, and which ones have time to work or which ones cancel which > > other ones (cf. rotschreck, continuing actions, etc.) and therefore, > > it's a good question that's not immediately obvious (to me anyway.) > > If you ask me, LSJ is right, because the original question implied > Psyche superior, by saying "If Marthe has played a Psyche! in a combat > that is about to end..." so this about to end implies Psyche! > superior. Correct. > Anyway, i believe that Marthe can't retrieve a Psyche! played at > the superior, but can retrieve a Psyche! played for press and > immediately play it at superior level. Henry Taylor can retrieve a > Psyche! played at the superior level. Correct. > Finaly, i have a question about things that take place after > combat and things that take place after the end of an action. > Corect me if i am wrong: > When combat ends it is also the end of the round and you can play > cards that can be played at the end of a round e.g. taste, disarm, > decapitate e.t.c. Yes. Google: "combat ends disarm taste decapitate author:LSJ" > Combat ends and action ends are different steps, so i cannot play a > Psyche! superior after i replace my bum's rush, because bum's rush is > not replaced until the end of the action, so if i could play Psyche! > superior after replacing bum's rush, then i would restart a combat > after the end of the action, so a combat which is not part of an > action, so a thing that is not possible, correct ? Correct. The action includes all combats in the action. > in other words, after combat ends, action ends, but it is not the > same time window, right ? e.g. i cannot freak drive and then play Correct. > Psyche! to restart combat, but i can play cat's guidance and the play > psyche! to restart, right ? No. You cannot play Psyche! after any later-step effect like Cats' Guidance, Freak Drive, Hidden Lurker, etc. Google: "psyche cats author:LSJ" > It is something like step1: combat ends, step2: action ends, right > ? Step 1: Combat is ending (Psyche!; Coordinate Attacks) Step 2: Combat ended (Hidden Lurker; Fast Reaction) Step 3: (after all combats are ended) Action ends (Freak Drive; Cats' Guidance) -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

"Nikolaj Wendt" <niko...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:22f564b8.0409...@posting.google.com... > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<9x31d.583372$Gx4.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > > DenAlex wrote: > > > > > Marthe Dizier > > > 10 > > > AUS CEL OBF PRE pro > > > Black Hand When a combat involving Marthe ends, she can burn a blood > > > to move a card she played during that combat to your hand. +1 bleed. > > > > > > If Marthe has played a Psyche! in a combat that is about to end, can I > > > use her special to retrieve the Psyche! and immediately play it again? > > > > No. Psyche! (superior) is not played during combat. It is played after. > > Huh? > > Psyche! card text says "at the end of a combat". Has'nt it been ruled > that "at the end of an action" means while the action is ending, and > not after the action? (as opposed to for instance Daring the Dawn, > "after the action is complete". Yes. > Why should this be different? (Playing it when the combat is ending, > not AFTER it has ended?) Because, for one, nesting one combat inside another would be odd. Contrast Telepathic Tracking. > Besides Psyche! is a combat card. How can it be played after combat is > over, when the rules say combat cards can only be played in combat? Card text. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

"DenAlex" <alexander....@pandora.be> wrote in message news:855f46a7.04091...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] You can play Psyche! when combat ends to start a new combat, yes. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Besides Psyche! is a combat card. How can it be played after combat is > over, when the rules say combat cards can only be played in combat? For the same strange reason it can cancel a Legacy of Power. -- johannes walch

"Johannes Walch" <johanne...@vekn.de> a écrit dans le message de news:ci4d04$buj$1...@stu1id2.ip.tesion.net... > > Besides Psyche! is a combat card. How can it be played after combat is > > over, when the rules say combat cards can only be played in combat? > > For the same strange reason it can cancel a Legacy of Power. yes, some people still think about this one =) come on, LSJ, please make a litte effort about this absurdity ! =)

Reyda wrote: > come on, LSJ, please make a litte effort about this absurdity ! =) The effort has already been applied. That's why it is handled uniformly. What is absurd about handling parallel cases in parallel fashions? [ quoted text not captured ]

> The effort has already been applied. > That's why it is handled uniformly. > What is absurd about handling parallel cases in parallel fashions? Nothing. Unless the former parallel case was allready aburd. Speaking of that what former case are you referring to?

"Johannes Walch" <johanne...@vekn.de> wrote in message news:cimkc4$50m$1...@stu1id2.ip.tesion.net... [ quoted text not captured ] All the other Psyche!s -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<rgy3d.400091$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > Reyda wrote: > > come on, LSJ, please make a litte effort about this absurdity ! =) > > The effort has already been applied. > That's why it is handled uniformly. > What is absurd about handling parallel cases in parallel fashions? So does Psyche counter Obedience? Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

"XZealot" <X_Ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:607fd93.04092...@posting.google.com... > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<rgy3d.400091$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... > > Reyda wrote: > > > come on, LSJ, please make a litte effort about this absurdity ! =) > > > > The effort has already been applied. > > That's why it is handled uniformly. > > What is absurd about handling parallel cases in parallel fashions? > > So does Psyche counter Obedience? I assume you already know the answer to that. If not, Google "Psyche Obedience author:LSJ" ( So that leaves an attempt to draw a contrary parallel as your reason for raising the question. But this isn't a parallel for a rather obvious reason: Psyche!'s requirements aren't met, so it cannot be played at all. It doesn't counter Obedience when it isn't played (indeed, it doesn't counter anything when it isn't played). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > > The effort has already been applied. > > > That's why it is handled uniformly. > > > What is absurd about handling parallel cases in parallel fashions? > > > > Nothing. Unless the former parallel case was allready aburd. Speaking of > > that what former case are you referring to? > > All the other Psyche!s Ah I see, because in Legacy of Power combat is actually entered. So from a strictly logical point of view that愀 ok. But then it would be cool to errata LoP and make it happen *before* combat. That would propbably de-wallpaperize this card. Actually I wouldn愒 mind if Psyche! could cancel that card but it cancels just the effect, you still have to pay and tap and such ... -- johannes walch

> > > > come on, LSJ, please make a litte effort about this absurdity ! =) > > > > > > The effort has already been applied. > > > That's why it is handled uniformly. > > > What is absurd about handling parallel cases in parallel fashions? > > > > So does Psyche counter Obedience? > > I assume you already know the answer to that. If not, Google > "Psyche Obedience author:LSJ" ( > > So that leaves an attempt to draw a contrary parallel as your reason > for raising the question. > > But this isn't a parallel for a rather obvious reason: Psyche!'s > requirements aren't met, so it cannot be played at all. It doesn't > counter Obedience when it isn't played (indeed, it doesn't counter > anything when it isn't played). I stand guilty as charged. May I have a blindfold and a cigarette please. Hey! You never know until you ask. No one knew whether Blood Brother Ambush beat Obedience until someone asked. [ quoted text not captured ]