What are the possible ways to torporize a vampire without entering combat
? I'm looking for actions or action modifiers that will damage or directly
torporize my prey's minions.
I'm thinking of a deck based on Shadow Twin, Summon the Abyss, backed up
by Fortitude for blood gain, Freak Drives and the excellent Kiss of Ra...
Are there any other damaging actions / votes / action modifiers ?
What would you think of such a deck ?
--
Francois
"Francois Gombault" <fgom...@actiNvOiSPaM.net> a écrit dans le message
news: 9humvv$25v$1...@s1.read.news.oleane.net...
[ quoted text not captured ]
without entering combat ? Free States Rant, The Final Nights, Society of
Leopold, Charnas the Imp and Jar the Soul come to mind... Also try multiple
Sabbat priest/Camarilla exemplary which make the blockers burn blood.
I don't know what to think of such a deck... Maybe if you post it once it's
finished =)
reyda
In article <9huo64$4op$1...@neon.noos.net>, "Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote:
>>> Are there any other damaging actions / votes / action modifiers ? What
>> would you think of such a deck ?>
> without entering combat ? Free States Rant, The Final Nights, Society of
> Leopold, Charnas the Imp and Jar the Soul come to mind... Also try
> multiple Sabbat priest/Camarilla exemplary which make the blockers burn
> blood.
>
Yes, and if it comes to voting, I think Rabble Razing might also belong to
this deck. But I don't like big-hurt-everyone-apocalyptic votes. From my
experience, it just draws too much attention on you...
Still, I don't really know when a vampire should go to torpor. I'm
confused with "steal blood", "burn blood", and "damage"...
> I don't know what to think of such a deck... Maybe if you post it once
> it's finished =)
>
Well, I'm only discussing theory here, as I don't have any card of Sabbat
[War] or Final Nights. So don't expect me to post a deck out of my mind,
I'm not that a good player...
I welcome everyone to steal this idea (assuming it's an original one,
which I am definitely not sure about), make a test deck and post the
results here.
--
Francois
> I welcome everyone to steal this idea (assuming it's an original one,
> which I am definitely not sure about), make a test deck and post the
> results here.
>
> --
> Francois
I've seen two decks based on this fact: A Lasombra and a Tremere. Both work
on the same theory, but in the end I prefer the tremere vs. the lasombra.
Let's explain
Both decks are built around low caps and, basically, two cards. Cryptic
Mission and Shadow Twin.
Both decks has some cards in common, used to "finish the job". Basically,
Vampiric Disease, Society of Leopold and one or two Fear of Mekhet, a few
deflections against heavy bleed.
The Tremere Madness deck
The Crypt: Low cap tremere, almost everyone <6, and 3 Muaziz to diablerize
torporized vamps.
The mechanics: The deck walks around these cards: 25+ Cryptic Mission, 8
Seeds of Corruption, 15+ Weather controls, charnas, Thadius Zho, Blood dolls
for blood gaining and a few Tha masters for them. Taste of Vitae to refiill
(if your low cap doesn't go to torpor) after playing some Weather Controls.
At Work: Bring out 4-5 vamps. Play blood Dolls on them. Cryptic mission one
of your prey's vamp (or your predator's, if it is annoying you in excess).
Play seeds of Corruption on them. Block them when then try to hunt, and play
a Weather Control.
How does it win? After a few developing, through cryptic mission-blood doll,
Arcane Library and Wasserschloss Anif, Austria you end up with 6-8 vamps in
play, and your prey should be really underpowered. Bleed for one with them.
the Cons: Lack of intercept (a few sportbikes, perhaps?). Also, If you don't
finish with your prey quickly enough, your grandprey will have rosen strong,
without a predator to anny him.
Annoying Lasombras.
The Crypt: Low cap lasombra. <7
The mechanics: Shadow Twin 25+, Entombments, lots of Obtenebration skills,
summon the abyss, Path of night, Darkness Within, intercept, Oubliette 10+,
Tribute to the master to regain pool.
At work: Similar to the tremere, but they are much weaker in combat. Also,
if you don't have a Path of Night in play, they loose a lot of blood fast.
But are more capable of sending a 0 blood vamp to torpor than tremere. In
the end, they can finish the work much better than tremere, but they aren't
as fast as tremere to reduce the amount of blood on their victims.
How does it win? They are as fast as tremere to finish with their prey, but
if they get blocked enough they don't have to many things to do. Maybe a
few stealth should help...
After seeing both in play, tremere ends up winnig more games, but the excess
in master cards and playing at once 5-6 Weather Controls they end with heavy
master handjam. I think it works better due to a simple fact: Every low cap
tremere can play almost every card in the deck. Low cap lasombra are knowm
to have a heavy lack of OBT, so you depend in excess in master skills.
Tom,Mad&Co
Ibericus Sabbat Inquisitor
In article <9hv39j$1u9$1...@talia.mad.ttd.net>, "Tom, Mad&Co"
<t...@almadrava.net> wrote:
> I've seen two decks based on this fact: A Lasombra and a Tremere. Both
> work on the same theory, but in the end I prefer the tremere vs. the
> lasombra. Let's explain
>
> Both decks are built around low caps and, basically, two cards. Cryptic
> Mission and Shadow Twin.
>
[snipped excellent analysis of the two decks]
Thank you for the info, Tom. Obvioulsy, making theses decks work
effectively depends on your number of actions per turn, that's why they're
both based on low caps.
I'm pretty sure that my variant with larger vampires and Fortitude will be
much slower. It should probably be Tremere then, to make use of Rutor's
Hand. Adding Freak Drives, and maybe the Force of Will / Change of Target
duo should greatly improve the final speed of the deck. But then again,
it's painfully slow to install.
But after adding so many "support" cards, the deck will be much less
aggressive than the two you presented. Maybe I should use the fact that
most vampires are reasonably big to add the vote stuff we discussed
before. Hey, it might even fit into 6CL, be a nice toolbox, while keeping
the concept of "torporizing without combat".
And, it sounds fun to play.
Oh, yes, I almost forgot : Francois Villon will obvioulsy be in there too.
--
Francois
Tom, Mad&Co <t...@almadrava.net> wrote in message
news:9hv39j$1u9$1...@talia.mad.ttd.net...
> > I welcome everyone to steal this idea (assuming it's an original one,
> > which I am definitely not sure about), make a test deck and post the
> > results here.
> >
> > --
> > Francois
>
> I've seen two decks based on this fact: A Lasombra and a Tremere. Both
work
> on the same theory, but in the end I prefer the tremere vs. the lasombra.
> Let's explain
Tremere need the combat to send vampires to torpor.
Lasombra do not.
Go to Embrace, Hungry Coyote, Shadow Twin, Fame.
Has swept many games for me, and only truly shut down by bruise
bleeders with permanent plus bleed, the deck doesn't block.
Its here, by the way:
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/twins_embrace.htm
It is much more successful at torporizing its opponents than the similar
Tremere deck, here:
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/cryptic2.htm
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
http://www.TheLasombra.com
"Francois Gombault" <fgom...@actiNvOiSPaM.net> wrote
> Are there any other damaging actions / votes / action modifiers ?
> What would you think of such a deck ?
I had some success with Free States Rant this past weekend, used in much the
same way as Cryptic Mission. Not so much to 'hurt' vampires, but to keep
them in a hunting loop, so they'll be unable to block my bleeds.
It seems to work best with the Setites as they have the votes, Presence to
Bewitching Orate the Free States Rant and Obfscate to prevent being blocked.
I posted an initial version of this idea, called 'Crypto-Statist Politics' a
few weeks ago, though the present incarnaton looks *very* different. I'll
post it when I get the chance. It does rely on having Final Nights though,
so you won't be able to build it.
The problem with Cryptic Mission-style decks seems to be its speed; that and
you need so many cards to burn through the blood on your opponent's
vampires. With Free States Rant, using a 9-cap (the average size vampire in
this particular crypt) you remove 5-blood per turn, and from multiple
vampires if you like. The most 'damage' you can do is 3 to any one vampire,
but you can always call another FSR with another big Setite. It worked
better in practice than you would think.
After all, for all intents and purposes, being smacked for 3 damage with an
Undead Strength or being smacked for 3 blood with a Free States Rant amounts
to the same.
Cheers,
WES
Francois Gombault wrote:
> Still, I don't really know when a vampire should go to torpor. I'm
> confused with "steal blood", "burn blood", and "damage"...
A vampire goes to torpor when he takes damage that he cannot heal (either
normal damage when he has no blood left with which to heal, or aggravated
damage, which cannot be healed by definition). Other than that, explicit
card text would do. Nothing else will.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
In article <R2H07.133212$lq1.33...@typhoon.austin.rr.com>, "The
Lasombra" <thela...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Tremere need the combat to send vampires to torpor. Lasombra do not.
>
> Go to Embrace, Hungry Coyote, Shadow Twin, Fame.
>
> Has swept many games for me, and only truly shut down by bruise bleeders
> with permanent plus bleed, the deck doesn't block.
>
I agree (thanks LSJ for the reminder), Tremere just weaken your prey's
minions, they lack the *damage* effect provided by Shadow Twin to
torporize.
But Lasombra alone lack the permanent blood loss (and overall havoc)
caused by Seeds Of Corrupion or Charnas the Imp.
Maybe a possible solution to get the best of both worlds would be to throw
a bunch of Shadow Twins in a !Tremere deck to finish the job. And a Summon
the Abyss for the fun value.
The deck is now : !Tremere-Fortitude for Cryptic Mission, Seeds of
Corruption, Charnas, Free States Rant, Sabbat Priest, Freak Drive, Kiss of
Ra, Shadow Twin.
[ As you might have guessed, I don't really like weenie decks (I only play
with a few friends, where deck speed/efficiency is less of an issue).
That's why I stick with the idea of larger vampires+Fortitude. ]
--
Francois
In article <9hvc6...@enews4.newsguy.com>, "Wes" <gh...@NOSPAMmnsi.net>
wrote:
> I had some success with Free States Rant this past weekend, used in much
> the same way as Cryptic Mission. Not so much to 'hurt' vampires, but to
> keep them in a hunting loop, so they'll be unable to block my bleeds.
>
That's a good starting point for my deck idea.
> It seems to work best with the Setites as they have the votes, Presence
> to Bewitching Orate the Free States Rant and Obfscate to prevent being
> blocked. I posted an initial version of this idea, called
> 'Crypto-Statist Politics' a few weeks ago, though the present incarnaton
> looks *very* different. I'll post it when I get the chance. It does rely
> on having Final Nights though, so you won't be able to build it.
>
Well, after so much talking, I'm now quite inclined to deliberately rush
into bankruptcy by buying two boxes of each set I miss. ;)
Temptation of Greater Buch of Cards: requires an Internet access and a
little chatting. :)
> The problem with Cryptic Mission-style decks seems to be its speed; that
> and you need so many cards to burn through the blood on your opponent's
> vampires. With Free States Rant, using a 9-cap (the average size vampire
> in this particular crypt) you remove 5-blood per turn, and from multiple
> vampires if you like. The most 'damage' you can do is 3 to any one
> vampire, but you can always call another FSR with another big Setite. It
> worked better in practice than you would think.
>
> After all, for all intents and purposes, being smacked for 3 damage with
> an Undead Strength or being smacked for 3 blood with a Free States Rant
> amounts to the same.
>
That's the idea. Plus the fact that damaging political action implies
political enforcement, which enables interesting possibilities in terms of
pool gain and prey ousting...
Definitely worth a try, if you ask me.
--
Francois