Broken Card of the Week 11/19/96
With the new expansion, V:TES/Jyhad finally has enough problematic
cards to support a regular review of them. Why do problematic cards,
rather than good ones? Well, I think the game finally needs an organized
approach to generating fixes for the broken cards, since now there are
more than a handful.
The format I've adopted is:
After a description of the card, a discussion of the card's brokenness:'
the part of the game it breaks, and why. Next, a listing of various
alternatives, with some pros and cons. Finally, a set of ratings by
several people who also provided commentaries on the card. Much of the
discussion of brokenness and fixes are from the raters, whose help
I appreciate a lot!
What is brokenness? Since people don't agree on what makes something
broken, here is what we're considering, from least to most broken:
- Cost in proportion to the benefit (so yes, escalation is in some sense
'broken')
- Appropriate power, inside the game paradigm.
- Locking out or trumping some aspect of game play
- Seriously upsetting the power balance of the game
- Breaking some aspect of the game design, built-in limits, or a standard
strategy.
Here is the card of the week:
Angelica, The Canonicus 10 Capacity, Lasombra
OBT DOM POT cel obf
Sabbat Cardinal: Once each time Angelica attempts to block, you may burn
X master cards from your hand to give her +X intercept.
To start, Angelica has 8 points of disciplines, and three votes, which
makes her slightly overpriced for a 10 Cap vampire. However....
Angelica breaks a fundamental cost of the game, the slot that
Master cards take up in your hand. Normally when you build
a deck, you have to take into consideration the pace you will
play your non-master cards, so that the master cards do not
pile up and jam your hand. And while you play, you likewise
have to pay attention to the rate cards are flowing through
your hand.
A few cards lessen that restraint slightly - Anson, Rumors
of Gehenna, The Parthenon, and the extra discard cards.
Still, they only help increase the flow of masters per
turn. Masters can still pile up if you don't pace things well.
How does Angelica break it? She turns Master cards into
dual-purpose cards -- they are now both +1 Intercept reaction
cards and Master phase cards. Master cards become 'free', like
WWEF, or Political Actions under the old vote pushing
rules, too easy to cycle. All Angelica's Metheuselah needs is
a predator or prey who takes actions at stealth, and she can
cycle several Master cards a turn (with the help of a few Wakes).
A key aspect of deckbuilding and the game is gone -- balancing
your Master cards and the slots they will use against the other
On the bright side, she's a ten pool vampire in a peripheral clan, and
may not often seriously affect the game. On the dismal side, think how
disgusting this would be with Sup. Auspex and Eagle's Sight.
How broken is she?
0 is best, appropriate power, cost (Fake Out), 10 being worst (RtI)
Overall rating: 7.2
theCorrupter: 8.5
James Hamblin: 6.0
Peter D Bakija: 5.0 (Only a single, expensive vampire)
Rulemonger: 6.0
Sean Whittaker: 7.5
Steve Bucy: 9.0
Tom Doehne (yt) : 8.5 (And only because she's a single, expensive vampire)
* note, the ratings are a bit more severe than they might otherwise be, since
under the old Jyhad rules, she has the ability to toss Master cards in
excess of intercept needed. Under VTES rules, she's still broken, but
not as dreadfully.
If she's so awful, how do we fix her? (These reviews will always weigh the
options of banning and doing nothing, in addition to whatever fixes we can
come up with.)
Here are ratings of various options, on a -1 (detrimental) to 10 scale:
Ban her:
1.0 (three raters felt this was very bad -- she's too necessary
for a clan already short on vampires)
Leave Angelica unchanged/limited to matching stealth (under Jyhad rules):
6.4 (This was the preferred 'fix' for 3 of the seven raters, but
disliked by others).
Angelica burns a blood, rather than a Master card:
5.4 (not much spread of opinion here)
Angelica is limited to burning one Master card per turn:
7.2 (again, not much spread, one rater's preferred fix)
Angelica can burn a Master card once, between your master phases
(an Out of Turn Master, without using up a master phase action):
6.8 (We either liked it, or thought it was mediocre. 2 raters'
preferred fix. )
Angelica may burn one Master card, which is treated as an Out of Turn Master:
6.2 (Opinions followed the previous option, except it was only
preferred by one rater. It has the advantage of requiring a
simple change, and returns the master card problem to deck design.)
Angelica burns one of your Master cards in play, rather than a discard:
3.7 (A high of 7, one person felt it was detrimental, but generally
seen as too severe)
And the most favored alternative:
Angelica gains one awareness counter on your untap phase. She may
burn X awareness counters and X Master cards to gain +X intercept,
but her total intercept cannot exceed the stealth of the action she
is attempting to block.
7.8 This was the favorite fix of three raters. It has the disadvantage
of a large change to the card, and counters. It retains more
of the flavor of the original ability, while limiting its
power to that of other cards that allow you to cycle more masters.
Next week: Return to Innocence
Comments are welcome.
--
Tom Doehne
doe...@cse.ogi.edu
Thomas Doehne wrote:
>
> Broken Card of the Week 11/19/96
<commentary on Angelica, the Canonicus, 10 cap broken vamp snipped>
>
> Next week: Return to Innocence
>
> Comments are welcome.
>
> --
> Tom Doehne
> doe...@cse.ogi.edu
Ack, my biggest beef card!!! I just think that it is
counterproductive to spend so much time limiting the amount a bleed can
deal ( only one action mod can increase a bleed ) and then turn around
and make a card that destroys this rule. People keep crying that RTI is
not that powerful since it burns the vamp. Well I'll burn a vamp every
time if it means ousting my prey and gaining six more blood!!
Losing a vampire this way isn't the point and the cost is
incidental. The original balance of the game prevented bleeds of
over 6 without an inherant +1 bleed or special bleed modifier. That
limited the size of single bleed actions. The introduction of RTI
to the game combined with existing unblockable actions (via Day op,
horrific countenence, etc.) means that someone has to take that huge
bleed. (short of Archon Inv.) I think this violates the original intent
of the games designers, and I certainly think it takes away from the fun
of playing the game.
The Jyhad was originally suppposed to be a struggle between
Meth. for control. Many more cards like TOR and RTI and we will lose the
balance and structure of the game. How long will it be before WOTC
pulishes a card that allows a vamp to act the turn it is brought into
play.... first turn kills anyone?????
Karl
I have some questions....
1. Can i play more than one combat card to do the same thing?
Can i press twice, using two flash when my opponent is pressing against me?
If not, can i use a flash once in the combat or once per round?
Can I prevent 4 damage with 2 skin of rock?
Can i suck my opponent twice as much with two theft of vitae?
Can i have +4 hand damage with 2 fists of death?
Can I do 2 aggrevated damage with 2 pulled fangs?
2. Can allys use weapons and equipments?
3. Can someone burn Shackles on Enkidu, even if I hav'nt used it yet?
4. Can I play out action cards with Madness Network?
5. Can I call a timeout on Maness of the bard to tell someone to loose a pool
or must i rhyme that to =) ?
6. If I vote, may I use reaction cards or action Modifiers to add on my
vote's, even if my vote already is sucesful?
7. Lucky blow tells me that i can use my hand or MELEE weapon as +1 damage,
can i use it to add on the damage made with Kali's Fang?
8. If the opponent dodge my strike that costs me blood, do I still have to
pay the blood?
If I take damage myself for my strike and the opponent dodge, do I still
take the damage?
9. Can i buy a contested card with succubus club?
10. Why is rötscreck not Banned and is Camille Devereux banned?
11. May I play sudden reversal on my own turn?
12. Vast wealth: can i block the action AFTER the eqipment card is revealed?
13. To burn Haven Uncovered is an D action, does this d action means the
controller of that card or do I do my d action to myself, and thus, my prey
or predetor cannot block it?
14. Talbot's Chainsaw, If im ready, shouldn't it be untapped?
Else, can flack jackets be used to prevent damage, and do I kill my vampire
with anathema on him?
15. If bang nakh is not a hand strike I cannot use Zack North +1 handamage
ability, right?
16. Archon: Is this card changed or is it a spelling error that the blocking
vampire burns one blood instead, as in jyhad, the methusalah burns 1 pool?
17. Now there is a prescence card that ends the combat and deals damage
during strike resolution... Is there a strike resolution even if "Combat ends"
and if there is, can I use Pulled fangs, prevent with damage prevent cards, and
inflict damage with retainers and Carrin Crows?
18. Is "ranged" the same as R or is it only useable at long range?
19. May I use 2 Cat's guidence to the same action to block and then untap?
20. Is superior sheperds Innocence a D action?
21. If I use superior drawing out the beast and the opposing minion
"Combat Ends", do he still get's one damage?
22. Fast reactions and hidden lurker: May I use weapons manouvers even if I
cannot use the strikes?
23. May I prevent superior Rutor's hand with an sideslip?
24. If i graverob my own vampire, can my predetor and pray attempt to block it?
(It's a D action)
25. If someone is using reaction cards to Reduce a bleed, can he also block
the action when I add my bleed?
26. If i use actions to fill upp uncontrolled vampires, can the amount of blood
on that vampire be more than the vamire's capacity?
27. Is the "remove exess blood" text missing on resturation, or can I get
more blood than my capacity?
28. Can I use Skin Of Night to make the aggrevated damage inflicted by
force of will to normal?
29. Skin Of Steel, prevent all opponent's strikes, does opponent's counts
in retaners, and what happens if I blast my bomb?
30. Kiss Of Ra: "Burns two blood, and the action is now blocked" Do combat
occur or is just the action "blocked"?
31. Immortal Grapple: If a second round of combat occurs on inferior, can
I still only use hand damage, even if I manouver out at long range?
32. Do increased Strength add damage to Torn Signpost's strikes?
33. Can i prevent only the aggrevated damage in a strike?
Can I prevent pulled fangs?
34. Shadow of the beast: Is this card really an action that do NOT have +1
stealth?
35. with the tournament rules, what hapens if Imust hunt again after playing
an freak drive or used earth meld?
36. If my weapon i got from Horrid Reality was stolen with fast hands,
what happens when combat is over?
If I burned the weapon with dragon breath rounds, can I still shuffle it
into my library?
37. May i use soul stealing in combat?
38. Eyes of the dead and The deadliest sin is nearly the same card, but
The deadliest sin is better, is this another "Concealed weapon" misstake?
39. Erosion: Erosion says that the vamire gets 0 hand damage, but do Zack
North get +1 hand damage (1 hand damage) then? And can i use a scorpion
sting to get 0 +2= 2 hand damage?
40. Do "Requires ready prince or justicar" means that i must use the card
with a prince or justicar or can I use it with all minons as long as I have
a Prince or justicar in play?
41. Taste of vitae, do "lost" mean the amount of damage I havve inflicted, or can
I use it on the bloodcost of skin of steel?
42. What happens if my vampire with an "Blood Hunt" on him becomes Prince or
Justicar?
43. Can I block Bum's Rush with the minion that is bum's rushed?
44. If I play Mercy for the weak and he Earth Meld and he was actin, do I still
need to pay the cost?
That's all my and my group's questions during the years we have enjoyed
Jyhad and Vtes, and Im lucky if I finally can get answers to as much
as possible of the above...
I follow it up with sabbat questions l8ter...
staffan.bengtsson wrote:
>
> I have some questions....
>
> 1. Can i play more than one combat card to do the same thing?
> Can i press twice, using two flash when my opponent is pressing
>against me?
Yes.
> Can I prevent 4 damage with 2 skin of rock?
Yes.
> Can i suck my opponent twice as much with two theft of vitae?
If you somehow get an additional strike, then yes.
> Can i have +4 hand damage with 2 fists of death?
Yes.
> Can I do 2 aggrevated damage with 2 pulled fangs?
I would say no, but I'm not sure.
> 2. Can allys use weapons and equipments?
Yes.
> 3. Can someone burn Shackles on Enkidu, even if I hav'nt used it yet?
>
> 4. Can I play out action cards with Madness Network?
>
> 5. Can I call a timeout on Maness of the bard to tell someone to loose
> a pool or must i rhyme that to =) ?
No.
> 6. If I vote, may I use reaction cards or action Modifiers to add on
> my vote's, even if my vote already is sucesful?
Yes.
> 7. Lucky blow tells me that i can use my hand or MELEE weapon as +1
> damage, can i use it to add on the damage made with Kali's Fang?
Yes, and the additional damage will be aggravated.
> 8. If the opponent dodge my strike that costs me blood, do I still
> have to pay the blood?
Yes.
> If I take damage myself for my strike and the opponent dodge, do I
> still take the damage?
Yes.
> 9. Can i buy a contested card with succubus club?
>
> 10. Why is rötscreck not Banned and is Camille Devereux banned?
Rotschreck is not banned because WotC has an "official" explanation as
to what it does. It's banned in my play group.
Camille is by no means banned.
> 11. May I play sudden reversal on my own turn?
No, as it is an out-of-turn master.
> 12. Vast wealth: can i block the action AFTER the eqipment card is
> revealed?
I would say no.
> 13. To burn Haven Uncovered is an D action, does this d action means
> the controller of that card or do I do my d action to myself, and
> thus, my prey or predetor cannot block it?
On cards played by an opponent which allow a (D) action to burn, the
action is directed against that opponent.
> 14. Talbot's Chainsaw, If im ready, shouldn't it be untapped?
> Else, can flack jackets be used to prevent damage, and do I kill my
> vampire with anathema on him?
>
> 15. If bang nakh is not a hand strike I cannot use Zack North +1 hand> damage ability, right?
Bang Nakh's damage is _based_on_ hand damage. So Zack would strike with
it for 4.
> 16. Archon: Is this card changed or is it a spelling error that the
> blocking vampire burns one blood instead, as in jyhad, the methusalah
> burns 1 pool?
>
> 17. Now there is a prescence card that ends the combat and deals
> damage during strike resolution... Is there a strike resolution even
> if "Combat ends" and if there is, can I use Pulled fangs, prevent with
> damage prevent cards, and inflict damage with retainers and Carrin
> Crows?
I think that we're still waiting on the answer from the Rules Team
> 18. Is "ranged" the same as R or is it only useable at long range?
Ranged is short for "usable at long range".
> 19. May I use 2 Cat's guidence to the same action to block and then
> untap?
No, since you may not use the same reaction twice on the same action.
> 20. Is superior sheperds Innocence a D action?
No.
> 21. If I use superior drawing out the beast and the opposing minion
> "Combat Ends", do he still get's one damage?
I believe that this was ruled to be "yes".
> 22. Fast reactions and hidden lurker: May I use weapons manouvers even
> if I cannot use the strikes?
No. You get no strike, and since using a gun's maneuver would require
you to strike with it, you may not.
> 23. May I prevent superior Rutor's hand with an sideslip?
Yes.
> 24. If i graverob my own vampire, can my predetor and pray attempt to
> block it? (It's a D action)
You may not play directed actions against yourself.
> 25. If someone is using reaction cards to Reduce a bleed, can he also
> block the action when I add my bleed?
I think so.
> 26. If i use actions to fill upp uncontrolled vampires, can the amount
> of blood on that vampire be more than the vamire's capacity?
No. The excess drains off into the blood bank.
> 27. Is the "remove exess blood" text missing on resturation, or can I
> get more blood than my capacity?
Again, the excess drains off.
> 28. Can I use Skin Of Night to make the aggrevated damage inflicted by
> force of will to normal?
No, since Skin of Night is a combat card.
> 29. Skin Of Steel, prevent all opponent's strikes, does opponent's
> counts in retaners, and what happens if I blast my bomb?
Damage done by retainers is not prevented by SoS, nor is the Bomb
damage.
> 30. Kiss Of Ra: "Burns two blood, and the action is now blocked" Do
> combat occur or is just the action "blocked"?
>
> 31. Immortal Grapple: If a second round of combat occurs on inferior,
> can I still only use hand damage, even if I manouver out at long
> range?
That's right.
> 32. Do increased Strength add damage to Torn Signpost's strikes?
The new torn signpost is worded badly. See the old wording; it is
correct.
> 33. Can i prevent only the aggrevated damage in a strike?
> Can I prevent pulled fangs?
You may not prevent PF damage, but only because it occurs during the
press phase.
> 34. Shadow of the beast: Is this card really an action that do NOT
> have +1 stealth?
Yes.
> 35. with the tournament rules, what hapens if Imust hunt again after
> playing an freak drive or used earth meld?
I would say that that vampire cannot act for the remainder of the minion
phase.
> 36. If my weapon i got from Horrid Reality was stolen with fast hands,
> what happens when combat is over?
> If I burned the weapon with dragon breath rounds, can I still shuffle
> it into my library?
>
> 37. May i use soul stealing in combat?
>
> 38. Eyes of the dead and The deadliest sin is nearly the same card,
> but The deadliest sin is better, is this another "Concealed weapon"
> misstake?
>
> 39. Erosion: Erosion says that the vamire gets 0 hand damage, but do
> Zack North get +1 hand damage (1 hand damage) then? And can i use a
> scorpion
> sting to get 0 +2= 2 hand damage?
I would say yes.
> 40. Do "Requires ready prince or justicar" means that i must use the
> card with a prince or justicar or can I use it with all minons as long
> as I have a Prince or justicar in play?
>
> 41. Taste of vitae, do "lost" mean the amount of damage I havve
> inflicted, or can
> I use it on the bloodcost of skin of steel?
>
> 42. What happens if my vampire with an "Blood Hunt" on him becomes
> Prince or
> Justicar?
>
> 43. Can I block Bum's Rush with the minion that is bum's rushed?
Yes.
> 44. If I play Mercy for the weak and he Earth Meld and he was actin,
> do I still
> need to pay the cost?
The opposing minion must play their strike first. If you still decide
to declare a strike which costs blood, you must pay it.
James
--
James Hamblin je...@cornell.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Only one human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari fleet.
He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be
somewhere else." -- Ambassador Delenn, "Babylon 5: Severed Dreams"
staffan.bengtsson (staffan....@mailbox.swipnet.se) wrote:
> I have some questions....
I know that you are hoping to get a response from a rulemonger or from Jon
himself, but I will try to answer as best I can as many as I can...
> 3. Can someone burn Shackles on Enkidu, even if I hav'nt used it yet?
There is no card text to prevent it, so I would assume so.
> 4. Can I play out action cards with Madness Network?
My understanding is that if you use Madness Network when it isn't your turn,
you can only use cardless actions (or actions provided by cards already in
play). Here's the RTR:
Madness Network - Unique Master (Mal):
Reaction Cards may not be played on your own turn.
Action cards may not be played except on your own turn.
The Madness Network does not change whose turn it is.
[RTR]
> 5. Can I call a timeout on Maness of the bard to tell someone to loose a pool
> or must i rhyme that to =) ?
You can't call timeout. Needless to say, it is completely indicative of
something related to Malk's, but not a whole lot of people like it, anyway.
> 8. If the opponent dodge my strike that costs me blood, do I still have to
> pay the blood?
Yes. You still have to pay the blood in order to make the strike that they
dodged. Needless to say, if they are the acting minion and play a dodge
first, you will want to use a costless strike... :)
> If I take damage myself for my strike and the opponent dodge, do I still
> take the damage?
It is my understanding that you certainly do.
> 10. Why is roetscreck not Banned and is Camille Devereux banned?
Who knows why they don't ban Roet... they certainly don't know how it should
be played (or when). As far as Camille goes... no, she is not currently
banned by any ruling.
> 11. May I play sudden reversal on my own turn?
NO. It has been ruled that out of turn masters may ONLY be played when it
is NOT your turn, unless card text specifically states otherwise.
> 12. Vast wealth: can i block the action AFTER the eqipment card is revealed?
Mmm... No. First, here's the rulings on Vast Wealth:
Vast Wealth - Master:
Grants the ability to take an action, namely: to search
through the Library for an equipment card. [TOM 950119]
This action is considered an "equip" action. [RTR]
You only search your library if the action is
successful. [TOM 951107]
Paying for the equipment found is not optional. If
paying the cost will oust the controlling Methuselah,
then she is ousted. [RTR]
If the equipment cannot be legally placed on the
vampire, it is burned without cost. [RTR]
Since the action is "to search through the Library..." and you don't
search unless the action is successful, you may ONLY block before the
search is made. If the Meth. is given the opportunity to search, this
is _after_ the action has been considered successfully, i.e. unblocked.
You can't block after an action has succeeded.
> 13. To burn Haven Uncovered is an D action, does this d action means the
> controller of that card or do I do my d action to myself, and thus, my prey
> or predetor cannot block it?
Are you sure? I thought that the action to burn what just a normal
action by the vampire with the haven on them. Can you check the text?
I have:
Haven Uncovered Master
Put this card on any ready vampire. This vampire can be attacked by any
minion as a (D) action, which would be at +1 Stealth. This vampire
can burn this card with an action, which also would be at +1 Stealth.
> 14. Talbot's Chainsaw, If im ready, shouldn't it be untapped?
Ready simply means controlled and not in torpor, I believe.
> Else, can flack jackets be used to prevent damage...
Not sure. Rutor's hand damage can be prevented, don't know about Talbot.
> and do I kill my vampire with anathema on him?
Not if you are referring to the damage which must be taken by one of your
minions -- that isn't damage due to combat.
> 20. Is superior sheperds Innocence a D action?
Only the basic has been ruled to be directed.
> 21. If I use superior drawing out the beast and the opposing minion
> "Combat Ends", do he still get's one damage?
Interesting. According to some of the most recent rulings, I would have
to say yes, because, apparently, combat ending has a space for "end of round"
effects.
> 22. Fast reactions and hidden lurker: May I use weapons manouvers even if I
> cannot use the strikes?
I believe so.
> 23. May I prevent superior Rutor's hand with an sideslip?
Superior sideslip... I would say yes.
> 24. If i graverob my own vampire, can my predetor and pray attempt
> to block it? (It's a D action)
I don't think that you _can_ graverob your own vamp, because you can't
make directed actions against yourself.
> 25. If someone is using reaction cards to Reduce a bleed, can he also block
> the action when I add my bleed?
Certainly yes, provided that they have not, as yet, declared that they
will not block. Reactions can be played before and after block attempts,
I'm pretty sure.
> 26. If i use actions to fill upp uncontrolled vampires, can the
> amount of blood on that vampire be more than the vamire's capacity?
No... you can never put more blood than capacity on a vampire.
> 27. Is the "remove exess blood" text missing on resturation, or can I get
> more blood than my capacity?
The "you can't have more blood than capacity" is a rule. You don't _need_
reminder text. In fact, you would need card text to override it.
> 31. Immortal Grapple: If a second round of combat occurs on inferior, can
> I still only use hand damage, even if I manouver out at long range?
yes.
> 34. Shadow of the beast: Is this card really an action that do NOT have +1
> stealth?
Yup.
> 35. with the tournament rules, what hapens if Imust hunt again after playing
> an freak drive or used earth meld?
Your vampire just sits there. It can't act, because the action it is allowed
to take is a "hunt" action -- but it is prevented from hunting. The rest
of your minions can act, however.
> 37. May i use soul stealing in combat?
The following rulings should clear this up. Essentially, they loft off
the superior:
Soul Stealing [DS] - Action Modifier{/Combat} (ne):
The normal version can only be used as an action modifier (card text).
Superior: As above, and this card can also be played as a combat card.
(errata) [RTR]
Cannot be used if a vampire is burned as a result of a political action,
such as Tradition Upheld. [RTR]
> 38. Eyes of the dead and The deadliest sin is nearly the same card, but
> The deadliest sin is better, is this another "Concealed weapon" misstake?
It certainly would seem so. :)
> 40. Do "Requires ready prince or justicar" means that i must use the card
> with a prince or justicar or can I use it with all minons as long as I have
> a Prince or justicar in play?
I believe it means that the prince or justicar must play it. Don't know
for sure though.
> 43. Can I block Bum's Rush with the minion that is bum's rushed?
Certainly.
> 44. If I play Mercy for the weak and he Earth Meld and he was actin,
> do I still need to pay the cost?
Yup. You pay the cost in order to gain the privilege of playing the card.
The fact that you played it after an Earth Meld was a bit silly.
-spongy
staffan.bengtsson wrote:
>
> I have some questions....> Can I do 2 aggrevated damage with 2 pulled fangs?
The first PF is resolved before you can play the second. So you can play
the second only if the target can prevent or de-aggravate the damage;
otherwise the target has gone to torpor and you can't play the second. I
think the current official rule is that you can prevent it with a flak
jacket but not with skin of steel (boy, that one makes a lot of sense :-\
We play without the rules addition/errata that damage prevention cards can
only be played in damage prevention, so in our group you could Fortitude
the PF.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
curt...@aol.com wrote:
>
> staffan.bengtsson wrote:
> >
> > I have some questions....
>> > Can I do 2 aggrevated damage with 2 pulled fangs?
>> The first PF is resolved before you can play the second. So you can
> play the second only if the target can prevent or de-aggravate the
> damage; otherwise the target has gone to torpor and you can't play
> the second. I think the current official rule is that you can prevent
> it with a flak jacket but not with skin of steel (boy, that one makes
> a lot of sense :-\
>
> We play without the rules addition/errata that damage prevention cards
> can only be played in damage prevention, so in our group you could
> Fortitude the PF.
Even so, Skin of Steel will not prevent the PF damage, as it doesn't
come from a strike.
[ quoted text not captured ]
James Hamblin <je...@cornell.edu> writes:
>curt...@aol.com wrote:>> The first PF is resolved before you can play the second. So you can
>> play the second only if the target can prevent or de-aggravate the
>> damage; otherwise the target has gone to torpor and you can't play
>> the second. I think the current official rule is that you can prevent
>> it with a flak jacket but not with skin of steel (boy, that one makes
>> a lot of sense :-\>>> We play without the rules addition/errata that damage prevention cards
>> can only be played in damage prevention, so in our group you could
>> Fortitude the PF.>Even so, Skin of Steel will not prevent the PF damage, as it doesn't
>come from a strike.
Yes, of course. Skin of Steel was the wrong card for this example. Should
have used Skin of Rock.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
In article <5353.689...@mailbox.swipnet.se>,
staffan....@mailbox.swipnet.se (staffan.bengtsson) wrote:
> I have some questions....
Noted for the next Rules Meeting.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Wilkie Wot...@aol.com
a.k.a."Scalpel" Customer Service, Wizards of the Coast
"This isn't going to have a happy ending"
-Detective Somerset, Se7en
-------------------------------------------------------------
staffan....@mailbox.swipnet.se (staffan.bengtsson) writes:
>1. Can i play more than one combat card to do the same thing?
>Can i press twice, using two flash when my opponent is pressing against me?
> If not, can i use a flash once in the combat or once per round?
>Can I prevent 4 damage with 2 skin of rock?
>Can i suck my opponent twice as much with two theft of vitae?
>Can i have +4 hand damage with 2 fists of death?
>Can I do 2 aggrevated damage with 2 pulled fangs?
Yes to all. The only cards you cannot double up on are action modifiers
and reaction cards, which are prohibited in the rulebook from being played
more than once by the same minion on the same action.
>2. Can allys use weapons and equipments?
Yes (some equipment mentions the "vampire" that owns them, so would be
useless to an Ally - but the ally could still own it).
>3. Can someone burn Shackles on Enkidu, even if I hav'nt used it yet?
No (except with a Burn Equipment effect). The card-text-given burn option
only applies to buring it once it has been placed on the victim (unofficial
ruling - no official ruling has been made, so you could use the
card-text-burn at any time).
>4. Can I play out action cards with Madness Network?
No. Action cards may only be played on your own turn (go figure).
>5. Can I call a timeout on Maness of the bard to tell someone to loose a pool
>or must i rhyme that to =) ?
You may not call "time", (it's not a rule),
If you fail to rhyme, you pay a pool.
>6. If I vote, may I use reaction cards or action Modifiers to add on my
>vote's, even if my vote already is sucesful?
You cannot use reaction cards on your own votes. You may play Action
Modifiers to increase the margin of your win. If someone else's minion
called the vote, yopu could play reaction cards to increase the margin
of victory (or defeat) then, as well.
>7. Lucky blow tells me that i can use my hand or MELEE weapon as +1 damage,
>can i use it to add on the damage made with Kali's Fang?
Yes. Kali's Fang is a Melee weapon.
>8. If the opponent dodge my strike that costs me blood, do I still have to
>pay the blood?
>If I take damage myself for my strike and the opponent dodge, do I still
>take the damage?
Yes to both. Costs are never recouped, except by card text - like Sudden
Reversal), and the Dodge only negates the effects of you strike on the
opposing minion and/or his equipment.
>9. Can i buy a contested card with succubus club?
No. Contested cards are out of the game in every way (except for being
further contested by additional copies of the same card).
>10. Why is rötscreck not Banned and is Camille Devereux banned?
Eh? Rotschreck is banned from tournament play. Camille is not banned in
any respect (she just hasn't been reprinted since the limited edition).
>11. May I play sudden reversal on my own turn?
No.
>12. Vast wealth: can i block the action AFTER the eqipment card is revealed?
No. The action is to go through the library. You must decide to block
before that happens.
>13. To burn Haven Uncovered is an D action, does this d action means the
>controller of that card or do I do my d action to myself, and thus, my prey
>or predetor cannot block it?
It is an undirected action. You Predator and Prey have the option to block.
>14. Talbot's Chainsaw, If im ready, shouldn't it be untapped?
No - it is as it should be. If you are ready, tapped or not, you deal
damage to one of your own. If the text was just "untapped", then the
card would be too powerful (since you can always tap, and probably want
to anyhow).
>Else, can flack jackets be used to prevent damage, and do I kill my vampire
>with anathema on him?
No and No. Damage from Talbot's special text is not done during combat,
so combat effects do not play a part.
>15. If bang nakh is not a hand strike I cannot use Zack North +1 handamage
>ability, right?
Bang Nakh does damage based on a minion's hand damage - if you have
modified your hand dmaage amount, this is reflected in the damage you
do with Bang Nakh.
>16. Archon: Is this card changed or is it a spelling error that the blocking
>vampire burns one blood instead, as in jyhad, the methusalah burns 1 pool?
It is changed. The altered effect was referenced in
Rules Team Rulings: 2/21/96 (Message ID: <4gg3uu$9...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>)
(Wow! I had missed this change up until now)
>17. Now there is a prescence card that ends the combat and deals damage
>during strike resolution... Is there a strike resolution even if "Combat ends"
>and if there is, can I use Pulled fangs, prevent with damage prevent cards, and
>inflict damage with retainers and Carrin Crows?
No, there is no damage resolution phase after S:CE, so that strike
does its damage in some limbo phase.
Now that Pulled Fangs can be used at non-Press times (as well as at Press
Time), you could play Fangs after a Riposte (unless the opposing minion
also Ripostes).
>18. Is "ranged" the same as R or is it only useable at long range?
At close or long (same as 'R').
>19. May I use 2 Cat's guidence to the same action to block and then untap?
No.
>20. Is superior sheperds Innocence a D action?
No. Inferior is a (D) action, however.
>21. If I use superior drawing out the beast and the opposing minion
>"Combat Ends", do he still get's one damage?
Yes. The damage occurs no matter when the round ends.
>22. Fast reactions and hidden lurker: May I use weapons manouvers even if I
>cannot use the strikes?
No.
>23. May I prevent superior Rutor's hand with an sideslip?
Yes, if you use the superior of Sideslip as well.
>24. If i graverob my own vampire, can my predetor and pray attempt to block it?
>(It's a D action)
You cannot graverob your own vampire, since (D) actions cannot be
self-directed (unless indicated by card text - Rampage).
>25. If someone is using reaction cards to Reduce a bleed, can he also block
>the action when I add my bleed?
Yes, unless she has already declined to block.
>26. If i use actions to fill upp uncontrolled vampires, can the amount of blood
>on that vampire be more than the vamire's capacity?
Yes. The excess drains off to the blood bank when the vampire becomes
controlled (the end of the influence phase, unless you transfer enough off
so that the vampire is no longer able to be controlled).
>27. Is the "remove exess blood" text missing on resturation, or can I get
>more blood than my capacity?
No, it isn't missing - it is part of the rules. Anytime a vampire has more
blood than his capacity, the excess immediately drains off.
>28. Can I use Skin Of Night to make the aggrevated damage inflicted by
>force of will to normal?
No. FoW's damage isn't done during combat, so combat cards cannot be used.
>29. Skin Of Steel, prevent all opponent's strikes, does opponent's counts
>in retaners, and what happens if I blast my bomb?
No, and you take the full brunt of your bomb blast.
It really means exactly what it says - the opponent's "strike".
>30. Kiss Of Ra: "Burns two blood, and the action is now blocked" Do combat
>occur or is just the action "blocked"?
Just blocked. No combat.
>31. Immortal Grapple: If a second round of combat occurs on inferior, can
>I still only use hand damage, even if I manouver out at long range?
All rounds after a Grapple are restricted to just hand strikes, despite
the range.
>32. Do increased Strength add damage to Torn Signpost's strikes?
No, Signpots is not a strike card.
>33. Can i prevent only the aggrevated damage in a strike?
> Can I prevent pulled fangs?
Yes. Yes (but you can't play damage prevention cards, cute eh?)
>34. Shadow of the beast: Is this card really an action that do NOT have +1
>stealth?
Sure. No errata exists.
>35. with the tournament rules, what hapens if Imust hunt again after playing
>an freak drive or used earth meld?
You are "stuck" and cannot act (with that vampire)
>36. If my weapon i got from Horrid Reality was stolen with fast hands,
>what happens when combat is over?
It is burned/reshuffled as normal.
>If I burned the weapon with dragon breath rounds, can I still shuffle it
>into my library?
No. It is only reshuffled if it is in play at that time.
>37. May i use soul stealing in combat?
Yes. (Errata)
From: aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie)
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Subject: Rules Team Rulings: 1/24/96
Date: 24 Jan 1996 21:40:18 GMT
Message-ID: <4e6902$t...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>
7) Soul Stealing left off the fact that it can be played as a combat card.
However, to make things more interesting, we are making this the superior
version of the ability, which would read "As above, and this card can also
be played as a combat card."
>38. Eyes of the dead and The deadliest sin is nearly the same card, but>The deadliest sin is better, is this another "Concealed weapon" misstake?
Sure is - Eyes is wallpaper (but was too weak anyhow).
>39. Erosion: Erosion says that the vamire gets 0 hand damage, but do Zack
>North get +1 hand damage (1 hand damage) then? And can i use a scorpion
>sting to get 0 +2= 2 hand damage?
Yes and yes.
>40. Do "Requires ready prince or justicar" means that i must use the card
>with a prince or justicar or can I use it with all minons as long as I have
>a Prince or justicar in play?
The former.
>41. Taste of vitae, do "lost" mean the amount of damage I havve inflicted, or can
>I use it on the bloodcost of skin of steel?
Only blodd burned to heal damage (or prevent destruction) is counted
by Taste of Vitae (errata).
>42. What happens if my vampire with an "Blood Hunt" on him becomes Prince or
>Justicar?
Nothing - he's still a target.
>43. Can I block Bum's Rush with the minion that is bum's rushed?
Yes.
>44. If I play Mercy for the weak and he Earth Meld and he was actin, do I still
>need to pay the cost?
Yes - combat cards' costs are paid as the card is played.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Experience is something you
http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | get just after you need it.
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |
>> 3. Can someone burn Shackles on Enkidu, even if I hav'nt used it yet?>There is no card text to prevent it, so I would assume so.
That's the reason why no one use it anymore =(
>> 4. Can I play out action cards with Madness Network?>My understanding is that if you use Madness Network when it isn't your turn,
>you can only use cardless actions (or actions provided by cards already in
>play). Here's the RTR:> Madness Network - Unique Master (Mal):
> Reaction Cards may not be played on your own turn.
> Action cards may not be played except on your own turn.
> The Madness Network does not change whose turn it is.
> [RTR]
Well, we use the old rule: Card's go over the rules...
But I want'd to know the oficial answer to the question, thanks =)
>> 8. If the opponent dodge my strike that costs me blood, do I still have to
>> pay the blood?>Yes. You still have to pay the blood in order to make the strike that they
>dodged. Needless to say, if they are the acting minion and play a dodge
>first, you will want to use a costless strike... :)
In our group we hold out cards and flip them over in the same time,
much fun is lost if the reacting vampire can see the acting vampire's strike
and then choose his own... Then there is no use of scorpion sting if you are
acting.
>> 21. If I use superior drawing out the beast and the opposing minion
>> "Combat Ends", do he still get's one damage?>Interesting. According to some of the most recent rulings, I would have
>to say yes, because, apparently, combat ending has a space for "end of round"
>effects.
We have trouble with the "Dawn Operation - drawing out the beast" combo,
if you can't avoid the aggrevated damage with combat Ends, then Kiss
Of Ra is pointless in a Ravnos or Gangrel deck...
Dawn operation, Drawing Out The Beast, Earth Meld, Diableri...
>> 44. If I play Mercy for the weak and he Earth Meld and he was actin,
>> do I still need to pay the cost?>Yup. You pay the cost in order to gain the privilege of playing the card.
>The fact that you played it after an Earth Meld was a bit silly.
As I said, we in this town use our combat strikes at the same time...
(And we are the ones playing most vampire in Sweden =) 10 Sabbat display's
in two days =) ).
We have three posibilities,
Use a weapon
Use handdamage
Use a face down card
When both use a facedown card, then we flip it over and jumps to strike
resolution...
It adds much exitement and I cannot understand why not everyone plays
the strikes this way...
>> 8. If the opponent dodge my strike that costs me blood, do I still
>> have to pay the blood?>Yes.
Are you REALLY sure!? The rulebok says that "Dodge" prevent the effect of
the opponent strike, isn't the blood cost an effect of that strike he used?
>> If I take damage myself for my strike and the opponent dodge, do I
>> still take the damage?>Yes.
Still are you sure, se the previus answer.
>> 18. Is "ranged" the same as R or is it only useable at long range?>Ranged is short for "usable at long range".
Ok, the old classic... Do "Useable" means that it is also useable at long
range or ONLY USEABLE at long range?
>> 32. Do increased Strength add damage to Torn Signpost's strikes?>The new torn signpost is worded badly. See the old wording; it is
>correct.
So Torn signpost add on 2 hand damage with no cost?
>The opposing minion must play their strike first. If you still decide
>to declare a strike which costs blood, you must pay it.
Wait a minute, do you actually SHOW your opponent what strike you tend to
use!?
" I will use a scorpion sting, dodge if you wan't to" !?
>Even so, Skin of Steel will not prevent the PF damage, as it doesn't
>come from a strike.
Usually you do more damage than your opponent if you prevent with skin
-of steel since you took no damage at all =)
In article <57563n$j...@redwood.cs.sc.edu> sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes:
>staffan....@mailbox.swipnet.se (staffan.bengtsson) writes:
>>>1. Can i play more than one combat card to do the same thing?
[examples snipped]
>Yes to all. The only cards you cannot double up on are action modifiers
>and reaction cards, which are prohibited in the rulebook from being played
>more than once by the same minion on the same action.
And Additional Strike cards/effects in a round of combat, unless the
card says you can double up.
Also, you can only play one Strike card (like Undead Strength)
per strike.
>>5. Can I call a timeout on Maness of the bard to tell someone to loose a pool
>>or must i rhyme that to =) ?>
>You may not call "time", (it's not a rule),
>If you fail to rhyme, you pay a pool.
Lose a pool, ghoul.
--
Tom Doehne
>>9. Can i buy a contested card with succubus club?>No. Contested cards are out of the game in every way (except for being
>further contested by additional copies of the same card).
Follow up question, May I buy card's from other methusalas ash heap since they
are considered to be in game!?
>>10. Why is rötscreck not Banned and is Camille Devereux banned?>Eh? Rotschreck is banned from tournament play. Camille is not banned in
>any respect (she just hasn't been reprinted since the limited edition).
Do you know why Camille was replaced?
Do Camille and Raven contest?
>>16. Archon: Is this card changed or is it a spelling error that the blocking
>>vampire burns one blood instead, as in jyhad, the methusalah burns 1 pool?>It is changed. The altered effect was referenced in
>Rules Team Rulings: 2/21/96 (Message ID: <4gg3uu$9...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>)>(Wow! I had missed this change up until now)
Im lucky that Im not the only one =)
>>17. Now there is a prescence card that ends the combat and deals damage
>>during strike resolution... Is there a strike resolution even if "Combat
>>ends" and if there is, can I use Pulled fangs, prevent with damage prevent
>>cards, and inflict damage with retainers and Carrin Crows?>No, there is no damage resolution phase after S:CE, so that strike
>does its damage in some limbo phase.>Now that Pulled Fangs can be used at non-Press times (as well as at Press
>Time), you could play Fangs after a Riposte (unless the opposing minion
>also Ripostes).
HAHA, MEET MY NEW VENTRUE KILLER DECK!!! =)
> staffan.bengtsson wrote:> >> 8. If the opponent dodge my strike that costs me blood, do I still
> >> have to pay the blood?
> >Yes.> Are you REALLY sure!? The rulebok says that "Dodge" prevent the effect of
> the opponent strike, isn't the blood cost an effect of that strike he used?
No, it isn't. The dodge prevents the effect, but the blood cost
must be paid before the strike can take any effect whatsoever. The
blood cost is a part of the cause, not part of the effect.
> >> If I take damage myself for my strike and the opponent dodge, do I
> >> still take the damage?
> >Yes.> Still are you sure, se the previus answer.
This could be seen as a localized effect. If Black Cat dodges
Quinton's Body of Sun, Black Cat will negate the effects of
the Body of Sun, but only for her. The Body of Sun will still hurt
Quinton, and Quinton will still have to pay for the Body of Sun.
> >> 18. Is "ranged" the same as R or is it only useable at long range?
> >Ranged is short for "usable at long range".> Ok, the old classic... Do "Useable" means that it is also useable at long
> range or ONLY USEABLE at long range?
Unless the card specifically says "Only usable at long range,"
a card or effect which says "XR damage" or states that it is usable
at range may be used at *either* close or long range. Taste of Death
can only be used at long range. Walk of Flame can be used at both
long range and close range.
> >> 32. Do increased Strength add damage to Torn Signpost's strikes?
> >The new torn signpost is worded badly. See the old wording; it is
> >correct.> So Torn signpost add on 2 hand damage with no cost?
No. Torn Signpost re-sets the vampire's base hand damage
to 2 or 3 (+1 hand damage is added to the base). As such, no more
than one can be played per combat.
> >The opposing minion must play their strike first. If you still decide
> >to declare a strike which costs blood, you must pay it.> Wait a minute, do you actually SHOW your opponent what strike you tend to> use!?
> " I will use a scorpion sting, dodge if you wan't to" !?
Yes. The acting minion declares their strike, playing their
strike first. If the acting vampire decides to play a Scorpion Sting,
the reacting minion has the choice not to play their dodge.
I hope that this has helped.
-Nathan Harada
staffan....@mailbox.swipnet.se (staffan.bengtsson) writes:
>>> 8. If the opponent dodge my strike that costs me blood, do I still
>>> have to pay the blood?>>Yes.>Are you REALLY sure!? The rulebok says that "Dodge" prevent the effect of
>the opponent strike, isn't the blood cost an effect of that strike he used?
No the blood is a cost for playing the card (and paid when the strike
is announced - well before the dodge resolves).
>>> If I take damage myself for my strike and the opponent dodge, do I
>>> still take the damage?>>Yes.>Still are you sure, se the previus answer.
Yes. If your opponent dodges, the dodge only negates the effects of your
strike on your opponent and his equipment.
>>> 18. Is "ranged" the same as R or is it only useable at long range?>>Ranged is short for "usable at long range".>Ok, the old classic... Do "Useable" means that it is also useable at long
>range or ONLY USEABLE at long range?
Either. (The RT hasn't yet added the "only" modifier to this class of cards).
>>> 32. Do increased Strength add damage to Torn Signpost's strikes?>>The new torn signpost is worded badly. See the old wording; it is
>>correct.>So Torn signpost add on 2 hand damage with no cost?
No. It resets the vampire's base hand damage to 2 or 3 with no cost.
>>The opposing minion must play their strike first. If you still decide
>>to declare a strike which costs blood, you must pay it.>Wait a minute, do you actually SHOW your opponent what strike you tend to>use!?
>" I will use a scorpion sting, dodge if you wan't to" !?
Yes, you (the acting minion) show your strike as you announce it - before
the blocker/defender chooses his strike.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Eschew
http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Obfuscation
[ quoted text not captured ]
doe...@church.cse.ogi.edu (Thomas Doehne) writes:
>In article <57563n$j...@redwood.cs.sc.edu> sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu (L. Scott Johnson) writes:>>staffan....@mailbox.swipnet.se (staffan.bengtsson) writes:
>>>>>1. Can i play more than one combat card to do the same thing?>[examples snipped]>>Yes to all. The only cards you cannot double up on are action modifiers
>>and reaction cards, which are prohibited in the rulebook from being played
>>more than once by the same minion on the same action.>And Additional Strike cards/effects in a round of combat, unless the>card says you can double up.
Thanks for the note, but you're clouding the issue.
You could play two Nimble feet in a round (one for a Press),
even though it was played as an additional strike card earlier the
same round.
The query was about restrictions on duplicating named cards,
not on what restrictions exist on playing cards at all.
>Also, you can only play one Strike card (like Undead Strength)
>per strike.
And only on action card per action and so on, but those're a
different type of restriction than the doubling-up restrictions
being queried.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Eschew
http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Obfuscation
[ quoted text not captured ]
staffan....@mailbox.swipnet.se (staffan.bengtsson) writes:
>>>9. Can i buy a contested card with succubus club?>>No. Contested cards are out of the game in every way (except for being
>>further contested by additional copies of the same card).>Follow up question, May I buy card's from other methusalas ash heap since they>are considered to be in game!?
Card text: "cards from your hand or in play". Ashheap cards are neither,
so "no".
>>>10. Why is rötscreck not Banned and is Camille Devereux banned?>>Eh? Rotschreck is banned from tournament play. Camille is not banned in
>>any respect (she just hasn't been reprinted since the limited edition).>Do you know why Camille was replaced?
Her artwork was a viloation of fair use copyright laws, so WotC voluntarily
changed the artwork. When they did, however, they also changed the name (not
thinking that doing so would be any different than not changing the name).
>Do Camille and Raven contest?
No. Different names and all that (paugh!).
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Eschew
http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Obfuscation
[ quoted text not captured ]
>No the blood is a cost for playing the card (and paid when the strike
>is announced - well before the dodge resolves).
Ah!
>>>> 18. Is "ranged" the same as R or is it only useable at long range?>>>Ranged is short for "usable at long range".>>Ok, the old classic... Do "Useable" means that it is also useable at long
>>range or ONLY USEABLE at long range?>Either. (The RT hasn't yet added the "only" modifier to this class of
>cards).
Humm...
In 25-Nov-96 08:17:34 L. Scott Johnson told me this about Re: All my questions at once
>staffan....@mailbox.swipnet.se (staffan.bengtsson) writes:>>>>9. Can i buy a contested card with succubus club?>>>No. Contested cards are out of the game in every way (except for being
>>>further contested by additional copies of the same card).>>Follow up question, May I buy card's from other methusalas ash heap since>>they are considered to be in game!?>Card text: "cards from your hand or in play". Ashheap cards are neither,
>so "no".>>>>10. Why is rötscreck not Banned and is Camille Devereux banned?>>>Eh? Rotschreck is banned from tournament play. Camille is not banned in
>>>any respect (she just hasn't been reprinted since the limited edition).>>Do you know why Camille was replaced?>Her artwork was a viloation of fair use copyright laws, so WotC voluntarily
>changed the artwork. When they did, however, they also changed the name (not
>thinking that doing so would be any different than not changing the name).>>Do Camille and Raven contest?>No. Different names and all that (paugh!).>--
>L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Eschew
>http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Obfuscation[ quoted text not captured ]
> Unless the card specifically says "Only usable at long range,"
>a card or effect which says "XR damage" or states that it is usable
>at range may be used at *either* close or long range. Taste of Death
>can only be used at long range. Walk of Flame can be used at both
>long range and close range.
the card we are arguing about in my group is Canine Horde...
>> >> 32. Do increased Strength add damage to Torn Signpost's strikes?
>> >The new torn signpost is worded badly. See the old wording; it is
>> >correct.>> So Torn signpost add on 2 hand damage with no cost?> No. Torn Signpost re-sets the vampire's base hand damage>to 2 or 3 (+1 hand damage is added to the base). As such, no more
>than one can be played per combat.
You don't use your undead strength, instead you decide to use your torn
signpost instead?
> Yes. The acting minion declares their strike, playing their
>strike first. If the acting vampire decides to play a Scorpion Sting,
>the reacting minion has the choice not to play their dodge.
>
> I hope that this has helped.
Yes it did, and my whole city of about 25 vtes players have started
a house rule that say's that both combat cards is played at the same time
and then flipped over... =)
>Here is the card of the week:
>
>Angelica, The Canonicus 10 Capacity, Lasombra
>OBT DOM POT cel obf
>Sabbat Cardinal: Once each time Angelica attempts to block, you may burn
>X master cards from your hand to give her +X intercept.
>
>To start, Angelica has 8 points of disciplines, and three votes, which
>makes her slightly overpriced for a 10 Cap vampire. However....
I must emphatically disagree with you. Before I go any further if this is a
spoof posting then I've fallen for it - if not...
Angelica is certainly NOT broken. Compare her to another Justicar or
Cardinal: Lambach of Clan Tzimisce: +1 hand AND may make hand damage
aggravated - not a bad ability and better than Angelica's.
Anneke, Justicar of Clan Toreador - a pretty good ability n'est pas?
Angelica's ability is useful - nothing more. Any talk of her breaking the
game is ludicrous. Imagine an ordinary deck with her in - perhaps once or
twice. Any actions that she might want to block she can throw in mastercards
as her ability states.
Three points:
1. She can only ever play mastercards to gain intercept equal to the acting
minions stealth. This then equates mastercards instantly to extra intercept
- for a clan with not a lot. This extra intercept is not exactly superb. It
doesn't give a manoeuvre, prevent damage etc...
2. If Angelica is in a position to block, are you sure you want to throw in
that hunting ground to gain the intercept? It really makes you think about
priorities when in such a position. Sure, they'll be times when you have
that Legendary Vampire in hand halfway through the game, or that useless
skill card, but this will be every now and again.
3. You will not always want to block. If you hand is full of masters to
exploit her 'overpowered' ability as you suggest might be the case then if
you block you will doubtless stand a fair chance of getting beaten up - after
all, those mastercards are never the best things for combat.
One of your arguments seemed to suggest that people would make the
Angelica/Mastercard deck! - I'm taking it further than you meant it probably
I know but you see the problem.
To argue that she can clear mastercard hand jam with ease is unfounded: +1
stealth action, 1 mastercard for intercept - not too impressive.
Her ability is PERFECTLY equatable to Anson's. Anson lets you play two
mastercards (very powerful cards) and in comparison Angelica can GET RID of
them for intercept!
If a deck gets mastercard hand jam then its just very unlucky for a good deck
will rarely get this.
One final point. Masters are arguably the most powerful cards in the game -
and to have them substituted for intercept that is inferior to other
intercept in most ways, is not the most desirable position to be in. It is
better than nothing obviously but she really is nowhere near as good as you
suggest.
Peter
CLA...@leeds.ac.uk (DPH) writes:
>Angelica is certainly NOT broken. Compare her to another Justicar or
>Cardinal: Lambach of Clan Tzimisce: +1 hand AND may make hand damage
>aggravated - not a bad ability and better than Angelica's.>Angelica's ability is useful - nothing more. Any talk of her breaking the>game is ludicrous. Imagine an ordinary deck with her in - perhaps once or
>twice. Any actions that she might want to block she can throw in mastercards
>as her ability states.
"Ordinary" decks are never a problem - even vote-pushing, tomb-growing,
freak-driving threats will fail to inspire gasps of horror in an "ordinary"
deck. But, some people don't play with their cards straight out of
the pack. They'll tune their card mix to take advantage of certain
(some would say "broken") aspects of the game - vampires that are too
cheap, over-stretched voting interpretations, etc. By using their wits
to build decks, they'll exploit the truley broken aspects to a point where
the game will suffer. They may not win every time, but they will
unbalance the game.
>Three points:
>1. She can only ever play mastercards to gain intercept equal to the acting
>minions stealth. This then equates mastercards instantly to extra intercept
>- for a clan with not a lot. This extra intercept is not exactly superb. It
>doesn't give a manoeuvre, prevent damage etc...
Extra intercept is very useful. Why does a Sport bike cost a pool?
>2. If Angelica is in a position to block, are you sure you want to throw in
>that hunting ground to gain the intercept? It really makes you think about
>priorities when in such a position. Sure, they'll be times when you have
>that Legendary Vampire in hand halfway through the game, or that useless
>skill card, but this will be every now and again.
Extra options are always better than no options. Even if you don't
choose to burn the Hunting Ground in one case - you might in another case.
The flexibility relieves one of the many considerations in building a
deck - master card ratio.
>3. You will not always want to block. If you hand is full of masters to
>exploit her 'overpowered' ability as you suggest might be the case then if
>you block you will doubtless stand a fair chance of getting beaten up - after
>all, those mastercards are never the best things for combat.
You *burn* the master cards. Since they weren't good for combat - odds
are that your hand will improve (and your hand cannot get any worse,
since even if you draw nothing but masters to replace the burned ones,
you're right back where you started.)
>One of your arguments seemed to suggest that people would make the
>Angelica/Mastercard deck! - I'm taking it further than you meant it probably
>I know but you see the problem.>To argue that she can clear mastercard hand jam with ease is unfounded: +1
>stealth action, 1 mastercard for intercept - not too impressive.
She can burn X cards for +X intercept. She can use X=7 even for a +1
stealth action. You can't boost intercept unless you need to, but you
are allowed to overshoot the need.
>Her ability is PERFECTLY equatable to Anson's. Anson lets you play two
>mastercards (very powerful cards) and in comparison Angelica can GET RID of
>them for intercept!
Sure, but Anson pays for his ability.
>If a deck gets mastercard hand jam then its just very unlucky for a good deck
>will rarely get this.
Because a "good" deck needs to consider the master card ratio. Using
Angelica, this is no longer as stringent of a consideration.
>One final point. Masters are arguably the most powerful cards in the game -
>and to have them substituted for intercept that is inferior to other
>intercept in most ways, is not the most desirable position to be in. It is
>better than nothing obviously but she really is nowhere near as good as you
>suggest.
I've frequently discarded master cards from my hand - using up my
discard at the end of my turn *and* not getting any intercept (or
any other benefit) from doing so. If master cards were *always*
useful (as you imply), I'd never do this.
[ quoted text not captured ]
James Hamblin (je...@cornell.edu) wrote:
:
: > 6. If I vote, may I use reaction cards or action Modifiers to add on: > my vote's, even if my vote already is sucesful?: Yes.
Reaction cards would be a bit difficult to use on your own
vote, but action modifiers are cool to burn through cards.
:
: > 7. Lucky blow tells me that i can use my hand or MELEE weapon as +1: > damage, can i use it to add on the damage made with Kali's Fang?: Yes, and the additional damage will be aggravated.
Is this new? The wording on Kali's Fang is not the same as on
Sengir Dagger. By card text, you could add to the damage of
the Fang with a lucky blow, but the damage added would not be
aggravated (2 agg + 1 normal total dealt)
: > 31. Immortal Grapple: If a second round of combat occurs on inferior,: > can I still only use hand damage, even if I manouver out at long
: > range?: That's right.
What's this? If a second round of combat occurs with inferior
IG played first round, there are no restrictions on range or
strikes.
-Wallpaper Paste
for all those useless cards
Dave Green (dc...@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU) wrote:
> James Hamblin (je...@cornell.edu) wrote:
>
> : > 31. Immortal Grapple: If a second round of combat occurs on inferior,> : > can I still only use hand damage, even if I manouver out at long
> : > range?
>
> : That's right.
>> What's this? If a second round of combat occurs with inferior
> IG played first round, there are no restrictions on range or
> strikes.
>
Immortal Grapple's effects last through the remainder of the
combat, which is why it is such a fun card.
-Mark Langsdorf
http://www.engr.trinity.edu/~mlangsdo/RPGs/Jyhad/index.html
dc...@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Dave Green) writes:
>James Hamblin (je...@cornell.edu) wrote:
>: > 31. Immortal Grapple: If a second round of combat occurs on inferior,>: > can I still only use hand damage, even if I manouver out at long
>: > range?>: That's right.>What's this? If a second round of combat occurs with inferior>IG played first round, there are no restrictions on range or
>strikes.
So one would think, based on Jyhad card text and card concept.
But, in the absence of "this round" text, WotC ruled a long time
ago that the strike-type restriction was for the entire combat.
The VtES card text reflects this ruling.
(How you can still be grappled *and* be allowed to move to long range
is beyond explanation, but that's what the ruling (and new card text)
says.)
[ quoted text not captured ]