Carpe Noctem!
A few questions came up at a recent game session (Sunday afternoon).
1. Can Caitiff become princes? Why?
Posit: Sabbat rules - Certain VTES cards or rules apply only
to members of the Camarilla, the vampires of the seven accepted
bloodlines. Only Camarilla vampires can be Primogen or Princes.
Caitiff are not a bloodline. Caitiff are not a clan. Therefore,
they cannot become titled vampires without a Writ of Acceptance or
Revelation of the Sire.
2. If I contest one of the vampires that is in my torpor region, when
can I give up the one in torpor and gain control of the new one?
Is there a delay past the first untap phase?
Posit: At the first untap phase after the contest. You must yield
control of the card at the first untap phase or pay a pool. All
contesting and resolving of contested cards happens simultaneously
even though the discussion of what is happening takes place
sequentially. You yield the vampire in torpor, and the other is no
longer contested so you get it back.
3. Tradition cards. Why can or cannot Inner Circle members play these cards?
Posit: In the roleplaying game, Inner Circle members are responsible
for the creation and judgement of Justicars. Therefore, anything that
a Justicar may do, an Inner Circle member has the power to do.
Thanks for the help.
Bleed long and prosper.
Jeff
1jbt...@unixstew.tstc.edu
http://unixstew.tstc.edu/~1jbt2197/vtes.htm
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In article <6cr24o$m82$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>,
bi...@scn.org wrote:
>
> Carpe Noctem!
>
> A few questions came up at a recent game session (Sunday afternoon).
>
> 1. Can Caitiff become princes? Why?
> Posit: Sabbat rules - Certain VTES cards or rules apply only
> to members of the Camarilla, the vampires of the seven accepted
> bloodlines. Only Camarilla vampires can be Primogen or Princes.
> Caitiff are not a bloodline. Caitiff are not a clan. Therefore,
> they cannot become titled vampires without a Writ of Acceptance or
> Revelation of the Sire.
Hurmph. The Sabbat rules are in error. Caitiff are Camarilla, at least
in this card game. Caitiff are clanless, but are still Camarilla.
> 2. If I contest one of the vampires that is in my torpor region, when
> can I give up the one in torpor and gain control of the new one?
You can yield only during your untap phase.
You regain control of a perviously contested card on the *next* untap
after all other copies of that card are yielded.
[VTES rulebook].
> Is there a delay past the first untap phase?
Depends on you view. You get it back the first untap after
all other copies are yielded, yes. If you yield in your
untap phase, you'll get the other copy back in your next
untap (the first after this).
> Posit: At the first untap phase after the contest. You must yield
> control of the card at the first untap phase or pay a pool. All
> contesting and resolving of contested cards happens simultaneously
> even though the discussion of what is happening takes place
> sequentially. You yield the vampire in torpor, and the other is no
> longer contested so you get it back.
Not sure what you're quoting from, but it isn't worded properly.
VTES rulebook:
If a previously contested card ceases to be contested, you return the
card to the active region, face up and untapped, during your next untap
phase.
> 3. Tradition cards. Why can or cannot Inner Circle members play these cards?
They cannot because the cards' texts require a Prince or Justicar.
> Posit: In the roleplaying game, Inner Circle members are responsible
> for the creation and judgement of Justicars. Therefore, anything that
> a Justicar may do, an Inner Circle member has the power to do.
In the card game, Inner Circle memebers are neither Princes nor Justicars.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team
[ quoted text not captured ]
bi...@scn.org wrote:
>
> Carpe Noctem!
>
> A few questions came up at a recent game session (Sunday afternoon).
<snip>
Wow..those things sound really familiar...hey, wait! I was at that game!
Look everyone! I found the people I was looking for! :>
(( kitten ))
In article <6cr24o$m82$1...@nnrp2.dejanews.com>, bi...@scn.org writes
>Carpe Noctem!
>
>A few questions came up at a recent game session (Sunday afternoon).
>>1. Can Caitiff become princes? Why?
> Posit: Sabbat rules - Certain VTES cards or rules apply only
> to members of the Camarilla, the vampires of the seven accepted
> bloodlines. Only Camarilla vampires can be Primogen or Princes.
> Caitiff are not a bloodline. Caitiff are not a clan. Therefore,
> they cannot become titled vampires without a Writ of Acceptance or
> Revelation of the Sire.
>
Becoming a prince does not require being a member of a clan but a member
of the camarilla. Caitiff are Camarilla.
>2. If I contest one of the vampires that is in my torpor region, when
> can I give up the one in torpor and gain control of the new one?> Is there a delay past the first untap phase?> Posit: At the first untap phase after the contest. You must yield
> control of the card at the first untap phase or pay a pool. All
> contesting and resolving of contested cards happens simultaneously
> even though the discussion of what is happening takes place
> sequentially. You yield the vampire in torpor, and the other is no
> longer contested so you get it back.
>
I would go along with that but would need to check the sequence of play
to be sure.
>3. Tradition cards. Why can or cannot Inner Circle members play these cards?
Because of card text. An Inner Circle member is not a prince or
justicar. Just the way it goes.
> Posit: In the roleplaying game, Inner Circle members are responsible
> for the creation and judgement of Justicars. Therefore, anything that
> a Justicar may do, an Inner Circle member has the power to do.
>
Counter-Posit 1: The American public elects the President. It doesn't
mean that they get to press the big red button causing
nuclear war.
Counter-Posit 2: The Cardinals elect the Pope. It doesn't mean they get
to have papal infallability etc.
--
James Coupe (change "nospam" to "obeah" to reply by e-mail)
You were my strength when I was weak. You were my voice when I couldn't speak.
You were my eyes when I couldn't see. You saw the best there was in me. Lifted
me up when I couldn't reach. You gave me faith because you believed. I'm
everything I am because you loved me.
On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, LSJ wrote:
> > 1. Can Caitiff become princes? Why?
> > Posit: Sabbat rules - Certain VTES cards or rules apply only
> > to members of the Camarilla, the vampires of the seven accepted
> > bloodlines. Only Camarilla vampires can be Primogen or Princes.
> > Caitiff are not a bloodline. Caitiff are not a clan. Therefore,
> > they cannot become titled vampires without a Writ of Acceptance or
> > Revelation of the Sire.
>> Hurmph. The Sabbat rules are in error. Caitiff are Camarilla, at least
> in this card game. Caitiff are clanless, but are still Camarilla.
May I voice a mild disagreement?
I do not think there is any need to rule, at this point, that Caitiff, as
such, necessarily belong to any single sect.
In V:tES, sect is indicated by card text. If the text says
"Non-camarilla", then the vampire is Independent; if it says "Sabbat",
then the vampire is Sabbat; if there is no text at all, then the vampire
is considered to be Camarilla. Camarilla is the default sect, apparently.
All Caitiff currently printed are considered Camarilla because of the
above rule, but it need not necessarily be the case. Future expansions
could print Caitiff with the words "Non-camarilla", without violating this
logic.
(Similarly, all Assamites currently printed cannot commit diablerie due to
card text. But if they create new baby Assamites via "The Embrace", this
rule would not apply, because the new vampire would not have such card
text. Correct?)
The rules team does seem to have decided that specific clans are
associated with specific sects in ways that go beyond card text. It has
been ruled that if you impersonate a clan, you assume that clan's sect
(implying that Nosferatu are Camarilla for reasons that go beyond card
text.)
However this ruling does not necessarily apply to Caitiff, who are not a
clan.
So if a card existed that allowed you to impersonate a Caitiff, would this
cause you to change sects to Camarilla?
Lupus Australis
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In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980223185200.13739A-100000@amanda>,
Lupus Australis <jbwh...@dorsai.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, LSJ wrote:
> > Hurmph. The Sabbat rules are in error. Caitiff are Camarilla, at least
> > in this card game. Caitiff are clanless, but are still Camarilla.
>
> May I voice a mild disagreement?
>
> I do not think there is any need to rule, at this point, that Caitiff, as
> such, necessarily belong to any single sect.
>
> In V:tES, sect is indicated by card text. If the text says
> "Non-camarilla", then the vampire is Independent; if it says "Sabbat",
> then the vampire is Sabbat; if there is no text at all, then the vampire
> is considered to be Camarilla. Camarilla is the default sect, apparently.
>
> All Caitiff currently printed are considered Camarilla because of the
> above rule, but it need not necessarily be the case. Future expansions
> could print Caitiff with the words "Non-camarilla", without violating this
> logic.
Sounds fair for a house rule.
But Caitiff are Camarilla because they appear in the basic set, among the
other reasons that you state. Only Camarilla vampires are in the basic
set.
This isn't a great reason, granted, to maintain the status quo. But it
is another reason.
> (Similarly, all Assamites currently printed cannot commit diablerie due to
> card text. But if they create new baby Assamites via "The Embrace", this
> rule would not apply, because the new vampire would not have such card
> text. Correct?)
(Correct)
> The rules team does seem to have decided that specific clans are
> associated with specific sects in ways that go beyond card text. It has
> been ruled that if you impersonate a clan, you assume that clan's sect
> (implying that Nosferatu are Camarilla for reasons that go beyond card
> text.)
>
> However this ruling does not necessarily apply to Caitiff, who are not a
> clan.
>
> So if a card existed that allowed you to impersonate a Caitiff, would this
> cause you to change sects to Camarilla?
Yes. The ruling extends to the clanlessness of Caitiff.
[ quoted text not captured ]