Hi I'm Mike and I'm a CheeseAholic!

This is a real tough subject for me because I tend to bounce from side to side on this often. I rarely play my weenie deck at home because it's pretty easy to win with it, however put me in a Tournament and YA BABY!!!! Break out the broom, I'm gonna sweep!!! Well, at least until recently at Gencon. Typical Misdirect Presence Weenie bleed was what I played, I've had my fair share of tourny victories with it, so what else would I play after flying 1200 miles to play in a "one shot, good night" Championship tournament RIGHT! I went with Robert Goudie and together we were going to pound our preys viciously and without regret! We spent the whole flight "turning cheese" into a Razor Sharp Cheddar! All that mattered was winning. Nothing wrong with that, right? It was the most MISERABLE tournament I have ever participated in! And I've been in over 50. When they sat Robert Goudie down as my predator in the 1st round my gut wrenched as the smell of dread and Limburger filled the air. We both new there was a slim possibility of this, and as we discussed earlier in the day of how the predator of a weenie VS. weenie battle ALWAYS has the advantage. After getting my prey down to one pool I was reminded of the truth in that statement. Weenie Dominate (Robert) swept that table. I was also reminded why I hate weenie decks. I did not fair any better in the next two rounds as my Grand predator in both rounds (two different decks) Chose to Force Awake and Eagle Sight my death blow attempts to my predator. In short, they didn't want me on there butt and tried to make it there game goal to prolong it as long as possible. One of my Grand Preds Forced and Eagled SEVEN times in a row!!! The weenies were scared as hell that he might make it to the finals. I now wish he would have! GO JOE!! Ya know, I just wanted it to be over so I could go back and play "FUN" games with everyone. After all those turned out to be some of the most challenging and exciting games of the convention for me. It was good times with good friends. Not to say I didn't try to win either, I did! I played challenging decks for fun, to win, and I did win! So why didn't I take that advice in the Championship? Well lets just say I took alot from that experience. Can you easily win with a Weenie deck? No, not always. I believe SEATING is everything to a weenie deck. If I moved Robert over one seating position he would have swept the finals, I can't say that about any other deck in the Finals. Can you have fun playing a Weenie deck? Honestly, even if I win it's not fun anymore, and it's definitely not fun getting taken out in 3 turns, I hate it. Can you earn the respect of you fellow players playing Cheese Decks? There are those who would say: "I don't care". Me personally, I so enjoy a creative and multifaceted victory.......the kind that play groups make legend forever. Ok, my parting shot on weenie decks and I'll leave you to your own conclusion: I was teaching a new player the game (my Wife) and I wanted to start her with something simple and something she could possibly win with......Ahh yes the Presence Misdirect Bleed. So after she swept the table in a 1/2 hour she turn to me and said: "Well that wasn't very much fun, where's the strategy in that?" Kind of ironic coming from a new player I wanted to have win so I could get her into the game. Well, Im on the wagon, my deck is dismantled and it's on to other tried and true decks for tourneys, and hopefully some new and inventive ones too. This sediment in based on MY own feelings for ME playing these styles of decks. I don't discount those players that do, I just hope I'm better prepared in the game to deal with them............Thats all I gotta say bout that! Michael Courtois, LA CA V:tes Player And Member of CheeseAholic Anonymous

Bravo Mike!! I've never acually played in a sanctioned tourney.. although I have played in one or two that a friend hosted at local coffee shops and card stores, and I decided that while tourney play can be extremely fun (I love to compete and I love to win :) ) I took away a bad taste in my mouth from both tournaments. Not only from not winning, but from the mere fact the experience was not unlike playing in a M:TG game (and please refrain from making this thread a magic / Jyhad bashing one... It won't be interesting.) where the people who simply had the most duplication of key combination cards could easily win. I of course gravitate more towards theme decks.. Things like my Ravnos "So you see Dr. Jones, there is nothing you posess which I cannot take away.." deck Of course the Mass Reality, Horrid Reality, Assult Rifle, DB rounds combo is a bit cheesy, but helps when playing against combat decks. My local group even instigated a house rule limit of 6 cards of a given type.. to foster creativity and strategy in deck design, as opposed to the following example. We recently converted a M:TG player and brought him into our group. My friend and I usually maintain a surplus of extra cards (in his possesion) which we freely give to new players as a way of jump starting thier own decks. Well, this guys deck, and a very well designed one from a tourny prospective included somewhere upwards of 20 Brainwashes. The concept here being that his prey has no chance of bringing out vamps at all (since you can multiple Brainwash a minion in the inactive, and someone correct this rule if it is wrong..) The other points of his design were Sudden Reversals for those pesky Effective Management cards.. And some Malks and Tori's (Including Anson for the extra Master) One malk in particular was Victoria (relinquish the edge and gain 2 pool) So he could easily bleed his defensless prey at least once a turn.. obtain the edge, and sacrifice it for the extra pool. Combat was handled by things like Majesty, and he had just enough intercept to prevent buring the Brainwash cards. As the player unlucky enough to be his prey.. I was fortunate enough that he got a bad shuffle and I was able to exonerate 3 of my vamps before the brainwashing began. However, once it began my Lasombra, Ventrue AT theme deck (Political Seizure being key to the design) was powerless to resist such flagrant cheese. The only thing to my benifit was my Succubus Club, the bartering (particularly with votes, as he didn't seem to have enough to stop the polititcal deck his predator was playing) worked to my advantage and I was able to survive long enough to make the game interesting. I find this sort of play in pick up games uterly offensive. The object is to have fun, and for me that includes creating an original design each time I play. I have only duplicated the following decks: Ravnos (mentioned above) "Madness of the Bard" (I love this deck, mainly because everyone else hates that card :) ) "Armageddon" (which I played in the aformention unsanctioned tournaments, and had a theme!) and the "Contract On America" (named after the republican "Contract with America" which was occuring at the time I designed this deck several years ago. Ventrue / Tori political) (BTW, in Contract on America II, Kemintiri *does* become the Ventrue Justicar for those of you familiar with the "Kindred's Most Wanted") Every other game I have played in I have experimented with original deck designs, not in the effort to find the perfect one, but in the effort to extract the most enjoyment. After all, this is a game and I would rather lose creatively than win with cheese. Which, I suppose is why I have never played in a real tournament. So Mike, and all other chees-a-holics come forth and return to what makes Jyhad the game it is.. not 20 Brainwashes in a single deck, but a creative original idea, which can almost be played as though a story were unfolding on the table! --David bag...@sonic.net [ quoted text not captured ]

David Bowsky <bag...@sonic.net> wrote in message news:37BCDBB0...@sonic.net... > Of course the Mass Reality, Horrid Reality, Assult Rifle, DB rounds > combo is a bit cheesy, but helps when playing against combat decks. I don't know how the gouda grows on your side of the hill, but I find four card combos (particularly those involving the Ravnos) hardly cheesy. David of the brief and pointless posts.

In article <37BC98EE...@postoffice.pacbell.net>, jedi...@pacbell.net wrote: >[snipped] > I did not fair any better in the next two rounds as my > Grand predator in both rounds (two different decks) > Chose to Force Awake and Eagle Sight my death blow > attempts to my predator. In short, they didn't want > me on there butt and tried to make it there game > goal to prolong it as long as possible. One of my > Grand Preds Forced and Eagled SEVEN times in > a row!!! The weenies were scared as hell that he > might make it to the finals. I now wish he would have! > GO JOE!! Hi Mike, And congrats. How'd those pictures come out of the fiends, Tzimisce, in the third round? Joe C. VEKN Prince of Columbia, SC Editor: Tzimisce Clan Newsletter Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

David Bowsky wrote: [snip] > One malk in particular was Victoria (relinquish the edge and gain 2 > pool) So he could easily bleed his defensless prey at least once a > turn.. obtain the edge, and sacrifice it for the extra pool. Combat was > handled by things like Majesty, and he had just enough intercept to > prevent buring the Brainwash cards. Note: Victoria's controlled can only "sacrifice" the edge during her master phase - not simply whenever she bleeds successfully. It [the Edge] is typically not controlled that long, since other players get to take their turns, and may be inclined to bleed (and be bled) just to get the edge away from Victoria's controller. [snip] > > --David > bag...@sonic.net > > JediMike wrote: >>[106 lines of dangling quoted text deleted] Please quote only the context which is needed for your response (and, when doing so, place your response *after* the quoted text). For more information on quoting, and about posting to the newsgroup in general, see news.newusers -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp

JediMike wrote: > > This is a real tough subject for me because I tend to bounce from side > to side on this often. I rarely play my weenie deck at home because it's > pretty easy to win with it, however put me in a Tournament and YA > BABY!!!! Break out the broom, I'm gonna sweep!!! Well, at least until > recently at Gencon. > > Typical Misdirect Presence Weenie bleed was what I played, I've had my > fair share of tourny victories with it, so what else would I play after > flying 1200 miles to play in a "one shot, good night" Championship > tournament RIGHT! I went with Robert Goudie and together we were going > to pound our preys viciously and without regret! We spent the whole > flight "turning cheese" into a Razor Sharp Cheddar! All that mattered > was winning. Nothing wrong with that, right? Mike's deck has had far more tournament success than mine. He has actually won a couple of tournaments. Another funny thing I've been looking for a place to mention is that Paul Johnson, a master player from L.A. was trying to talk us out of playing the weenie decks at GenCon. In his opinion, he didn't think we could win with them (that should tell you something of the respect and success of the all-powerful Weenie Decks in LA). > It was the most MISERABLE tournament I have ever participated in! And > I've been in over 50. Mike and I played very similar decks. His had more combat defense (which, in the end, was unneeded) and mine had deflections (which were somewhat useful). I think we both may have played the wrong decks since neither of us should have made it to the finals. If one prey's Justine didn't commit suicide and another player's coin-toss of a choice turn out badly, I would have ended with only 4 VPs and Joe Churchill would have been a finalist with his intercept deck. Mike is destroying his Weenie Bleed deck because he felt essentially helpless. I generally feel his deck is stronger than mine but it just depends on the environment. > When they sat Robert Goudie down as my predator in the 1st round my > gut wrenched as the smell of dread and Limburger filled the air. We both > new there was a slim possibility of this, and as we discussed earlier in > the day of how the predator of a weenie VS. weenie battle ALWAYS has the > advantage. After getting my prey down to one pool I was reminded of the > truth in that statement. Weenie Dominate (Robert) swept that table. I > was also reminded why I hate weenie decks. Mike would have swept the table if he had drawn the Misdirection he needed. Instead, his weenie deck weakened his prey so much that I was able to oust him and his prey quickly. > I did not fair any better in the next two rounds as my Grand predator > in both rounds (two different decks) Chose to Force Awake and Eagle > Sight my death blow attempts to my predator. In short, they didn't want > me on there butt and tried to make it there game goal to prolong it as > long as possible. One of my Grand Preds Forced and Eagled SEVEN times in > a row!!! The weenies were scared as hell that he might make it to the > finals. I now wish he would have! GO JOE!! Joe's deck wasn't a dedicated weenie stopper. It was a deck devoted to stopping and destroying anything it wanted to. The fragile weenies were just an easy and visible target. > > Ya know, I just wanted it to be over so I could go back and play "FUN" > games with everyone. After all those turned out to be some of the most > challenging and exciting games of the convention for me. It was good > times with good friends. Not to say I didn't try to win either, I did! I > played challenging decks for fun, to win, and I did win! So why didn't I > take that advice in the Championship? Well lets just say I took alot > from that experience. I lost two of the four rounds I played in. I should have lost 3 or 4. Anyway, David Tatu's deck in round 3 was a pretty good battle. The 2nd Tradition and Vote deck in round 2 was a great battle (that I lost). These two rounds were more fun and challenging than any of the draft or free play games I participated in. We just had different experiences. So, what? I don't think it proved anything either way. > Can you easily win with a Weenie deck? No, not always. I believe > SEATING is everything to a weenie deck. If I moved Robert over one > seating position he would have swept the finals, I can't say that about > any other deck in the Finals. Sure, in hindsight. But, I had the option of sitting anywhere I wanted and I sat right where I wanted to. If I had moved over I now think I could have won. Keith Thompson was saying that he was about to sweep the table too, if only he'd had one more turn. > Well, Im > on the wagon, my deck is dismantled and it's on to other tried and true > decks for tourneys, and hopefully some new and inventive ones too. By the way, Mike, your 2 different Stealth Bleed decks are also cheesy by some people's standards. I think you're going to have to stick to your ineffictive decks to avoid the stigma. -- Robert Goudie rrgo...@earthlink.net http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net

David Bowsky wrote: > > Bravo Mike!! > [clip] > My local group even instigated a house rule limit of 6 cards of a given > type.. to foster creativity and strategy in deck design, as opposed to > the following example. > > We recently converted a M:TG player and brought him into our group. My > friend and I usually maintain a surplus of extra cards (in his > possesion) which we freely give to new players as a way of jump starting > thier own decks. Well, this guys deck, and a very well designed one from > a tourny prospective included somewhere upwards of 20 Brainwashes. > > The concept here being that his prey has no chance of bringing out vamps > at all (since you can multiple Brainwash a minion in the inactive, and > someone correct this rule if it is wrong..) > > The other points of his design were Sudden Reversals for those pesky > Effective Management cards.. And some Malks and Tori's (Including Anson > for the extra Master) > One malk in particular was Victoria (relinquish the edge and gain 2 > pool) So he could easily bleed his defensless prey at least once a > turn.. obtain the edge, and sacrifice it for the extra pool. Combat was > handled by things like Majesty, and he had just enough intercept to > prevent buring the Brainwash cards. > > As the player unlucky enough to be his prey.. I was fortunate enough > that he got a bad shuffle and I was able to exonerate 3 of my vamps > before the brainwashing began. However, once it began my Lasombra, > Ventrue AT theme deck (Political Seizure being key to the design) was > powerless to resist such flagrant cheese. This was a completely legitimate deck. I've built one myself. I got the idea way back when I was reading articles about some Magic control decks. Its too bad that you had a new player, excited about playing the game, and you considered his deck "utterly offensive". I suspect that Mike the Cheese-aholic and the other anti-weenie deck posters also'd be reluctant to agree with you on this one. It does go to show that declaring certain things "cheese" is a slippery slope that starts to include cards like Brainwash or Sudden Reversal... [clip for bevity] > So Mike, and all other chees-a-holics come forth and return to what > makes Jyhad the game it is.. not 20 Brainwashes in a single deck, but a > creative original idea, which can almost be played as though a story > were unfolding on the table! I have no problem with people playing the game as a storytelling vehicle but as far as I can tell, you don't get any victory points for a good story. The best game I have every played in was a four player game in which I played a weenie Night Moves deck, Mike Courtois, my predator, played a Stealth Bleed deck, Alex Harmon played a Weenie Potence Rush deck, and Paul Johnson, my prey played a Nosf.-Anti fight deck. Everyone played all-out. 2 of the 4 decks were considered "cheesy" and it was the most perfectly balanced fight ever! [ quoted text not captured ]

Congrats Mike! You have reached the same place I did after my weenie presence and weenie vote decks. They just aren't fun, even when I was sweeping the table. I still don't see what Robert enjoys about playing the weenie dominate bleed. To each his own I guess... Welcome back to the light side! Steve Bucy P.S. From the mouth of newbies... Your wife said it best. JediMike wrote in message <37BC98EE...@postoffice.pacbell.net>... > > Ok, my parting shot on weenie decks and I'll leave you to your own >conclusion: I was teaching a new player the game (my Wife) and I wanted >to start her with something simple and something she could possibly win >with......Ahh yes the Presence Misdirect Bleed. So after she swept the >table in a 1/2 hour she turn to me and said: "Well that wasn't very much >fun, where's the strategy in that?" Kind of ironic coming from a new >player I wanted to have win so I could get her into the game. Well, Im >on the wagon, my deck is dismantled and it's on to other tried and true >decks for tourneys, and hopefully some new and inventive ones too. This [ quoted text not captured ]

Robert Goudie wrote in message <37BD8D46...@earthlink.net>... >David Bowsky wrote: >> >> We recently converted a M:TG player and brought him into our group. My >> friend and I usually maintain a surplus of extra cards (in his >> possesion) which we freely give to new players as a way of jump starting >> thier own decks. Well, this guys deck, and a very well designed one from >> a tourny prospective included somewhere upwards of 20 Brainwashes. >> >> The concept here being that his prey has no chance of bringing out vamps >> at all (since you can multiple Brainwash a minion in the inactive, and >> someone correct this rule if it is wrong..) >> >> The other points of his design were Sudden Reversals for those pesky >> Effective Management cards.. And some Malks and Tori's (Including Anson >> for the extra Master) >> One malk in particular was Victoria (relinquish the edge and gain 2 >> pool) So he could easily bleed his defensless prey at least once a >> turn.. obtain the edge, and sacrifice it for the extra pool. Combat was >> handled by things like Majesty, and he had just enough intercept to >> prevent buring the Brainwash cards. >> >> As the player unlucky enough to be his prey.. I was fortunate enough >> that he got a bad shuffle and I was able to exonerate 3 of my vamps >> before the brainwashing began. However, once it began my Lasombra, >> Ventrue AT theme deck (Political Seizure being key to the design) was >> powerless to resist such flagrant cheese. > >This was a completely legitimate deck. I've built one myself. I got >the idea way back when I was reading articles about some Magic control >decks. Its too bad that you had a new player, excited about playing the >game, and you considered his deck "utterly offensive". I suspect that >Mike the Cheese-aholic and the other anti-weenie deck posters also'd be >reluctant to agree with you on this one. Legitimate? yes. Cheesy? yes. Robert, you are one of the best players of this game. How long did it take you to win a game with that deck? If memory serves me correct it was about 8 games. How many times did you screw your prey out of the game and turbo your grand prey only to get killed yourself? 6 or 7? It basically screwed up the game dynamics like weenie bleed. Later you modified it so it was more complex and interesting to play but you had trouble getting the Brainwash off. I haven't seen it since. >It does go to show that declaring certain things "cheese" is a slippery >slope that starts to include cards like Brainwash or Sudden Reversal... He is not saying Brainwash or Sudden reversal are "cheese". He is saying a one trick pony deck designed to do little but brainwash it's first prey out of the game is "cheese". It's all in how you use the cards. (snip) Steve Bucy

> <<snip, as per instruction>> > > Note: Victoria's controlled can only "sacrifice" the edge during her > master phase - not simply whenever she bleeds successfully. It [the > Edge] > is typically not controlled that long, since other players get to take > > their turns, and may be inclined to bleed (and be bled) just to get > the > edge away from Victoria's controller. > > > > -- > LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. > Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: > http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp Yup.. that's what the guy was doing.. but gaining 1 from the edge, the dumping it for 2 more on nearly every turn is damn effective. Sorry for the confusion.. --David

<<snip>>Robert Goudie wrote: > > As the player unlucky enough to be his prey.. I was fortunate enough > > > that he got a bad shuffle and I was able to exonerate 3 of my vamps > > before the brainwashing began. However, once it began my Lasombra, > > Ventrue AT theme deck (Political Seizure being key to the design) > was > > powerless to resist such flagrant cheese. > > This was a completely legitimate deck. I've built one myself. I got > the idea way back when I was reading articles about some Magic control > > decks. Its too bad that you had a new player, excited about playing > the > game, and you considered his deck "utterly offensive". I suspect that > Mike the Cheese-aholic and the other anti-weenie deck posters also'd > be > reluctant to agree with you on this one. > It does go to show that declaring certain things "cheese" is a > slippery > slope that starts to include cards like Brainwash or Sudden > Reversal... > Sure it's a legit deck, and I have nothing personal against Brainwash or SR, however including 20 of a single card in a Jyhad deck in my mind lacks a certain amount of subtlety and ingeuitity which inmnsho doesn't really fit in with the theme of the game. Of course I'm the type of player who will trade votes for favors (and vice verse when I need the votes) which as far as I know is not against the rules, but not generally done. (Every time I do this in front of someone who has never played with me before the make a comment similar to, "I've never seen anyone do that") I suppose I am reading too much into the mythos and subtext of the cards, and more interested in creating something interesting than using the same card as many times as possible, usually speaking I have no more than 4 of a given card, with some exceptions ranging to 6. I find anything more than that to be dull and repetititve, and I limits my ability to react to different decks I am playing against. Then again I'm also the guy who refuses to use bleed modifiers in pick-up games. Personality quirks of mine. I have nothing against bleed mods, but why use extra cards to increase bleed when there are vamps who have that natch, and that card space can be used doing something interesting like Political Siezure, Thanks for the Donation, and having Democritus out. (Of course I never got that to work correctly :) ) BTW: I have won plenty of victory points with theme or story decks. It just happens that way. Not in tourneys, but hey.. next time there's one in the San Francisco area, maybe I'll try. :) --David bag...@sonic.net

Robert Goudie wrote: > Mike is destroying his Weenie Bleed deck because he felt essentially > helpless. I generally feel his deck is stronger than mine but it just > depends on the environment. > No, I dismantled my weenie deck because I've come to the conclusion win or lose it's not fun playing that deck anymore! > Mike would have swept the table if he had drawn the Misdirection he > needed. Instead, his weenie deck weakened his prey so much that I was > able to oust him and his prey quickly. Ya, if I ONLY would have drawn one of my NINETEEN misdirection's (just think of the strategy involved in the decision if I had drawn it) , but the little pressure you had, I would have fallen anyway. > Joe's deck wasn't a dedicated weenie stopper. It was a deck devoted to > stopping and destroying anything it wanted to. The fragile (Focused) > weenies were > just an easy and visible target. > How can you call a deck that CONSISTENTLY gets to the finals (this time with what? NINE or TEN victory points!?) fragile? Hell, a variation of my deck WON the tournament. I believe focused not fragile is more the correct term. > > Can you easily win with a Weenie deck? No, not always. I believe > > SEATING is everything to a weenie deck. If I moved Robert over one > > seating position he would have swept the finals, I can't say that about > > any other deck in the Finals. > > Sure, in hindsight. My statement here was only to show the tremendous ease at which a weenie deck can sweep a table with only slightly modified circumstances. No other deck at that table could claim that. The speed and swiftness a weenie deck presents in a tournament is unmatched by any other style of decks in the game. Sure there's no guarantee (look at me) but we both new the odds were with us, after all that is why we chose those decks right? > > Well, Im > > on the wagon, my deck is dismantled and it's on to other tried and true > > decks for tourneys, and hopefully some new and inventive ones too. > > By the way, Mike, your 2 different Stealth Bleed decks are also cheesy > by some people's standards. Maybe so, but at least those two decks combine Blood Management, Intercept, Combat defense, as well as Stealth Bleed offense. Remember the 3 hour pick up game with our friend from San Diego? My Sheldon Deck VS. his Lasombra deck? Some MIGHT call it a cheesy deck, but at least YOU know better. > I think you're going to have to stick to > your ineffictive decks to avoid the stigma. The only stigma I want to avoid is the one where I'm always your prey wondering which of your five Weenie decks your gonna be playing :) > ***JediMike***.

David Bowsky wrote in message <37BE34DB...@sonic.net>... >Sure it's a legit deck, and I have nothing personal against Brainwash or >SR, however including 20 of a single card in a Jyhad deck in my mind >lacks a certain amount of subtlety and ingeuitity which inmnsho doesn't >really fit in with the theme of the game. > Ingenuity comes from trying such an outlandish tactic in the first place. Limiting cards may make for more subtlety, but I wouldn't say your decks are more ingenius simply because you restrict the number of a certain card you put in. >Of course I'm the type of player who will trade votes for favors (and >vice verse when I need the votes) which as far as I know is not against >the rules, but not generally done. (Every time I do this in front of >someone who has never played with me before the make a comment similar >to, "I've never seen anyone do that") > On the contrary... In my experience, it is extremely common to trade votes for favors (within the game). Most often, you get a point of damage to your prey off a KRC or some other effect, but I've bought boons like "Don't bleed me for two turns" etc. more times than I can think of. I've seen it in most tournaments I've participated in, even more so since 7/7 (votes tend to need more table support to pass) snippage > >Personality quirks of mine. I have nothing against bleed mods, but why >use extra cards to increase bleed when there are vamps who have that >natch, and that card space can be used doing something interesting like >Political Siezure, Thanks for the Donation, and having Democritus out. >(Of course I never got that to work correctly :) ) > Because bleeld mods make for a more efficient way of eliminating your prey, but you knew that. I agree, they do get in the way in most theme decks. >BTW: I have won plenty of victory points with theme or story decks. It >just happens that way. Not in tourneys, but hey.. next time there's one >in the San Francisco area, maybe I'll try. :) > Me too. The two most recent have been the Toreador Anti-tribu Techno Rave Deck, and Virgil's Escort Service ;-) I might disagree with you about the CL/NL thing, but I will definitely agree that you can make effective, theme oriented decks. Regards, R. David Zopf Atom Weaver (& V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC)

I guess what I hate about certain decks (e.g. Weenie Misdirect Presence Bleed) is that they play no defense whatsoever. Consequently, if you are their first prey, the two typical outcomes of the game for you are: 1) You are ousted quickly. 2) You survive the onslaught, but are hanging on by a thread and are quickly ousted by your original grand-predator. Possibly, you survive for a while in a crippled state. So, the game is almost never fun for the prey of the defense-free predator deck. --- Eric Pettersen pett "at" cgl "dot" ucsf "dot" edu (NeXTmail capable)

David Bowsky wrote in message <37BCDBB0...@sonic.net>... >We recently converted a M:TG player and brought him into our group. My >friend and I usually maintain a surplus of extra cards (in his >possesion) which we freely give to new players as a way of jump starting >thier own decks. Well, this guys deck, and a very well designed one from >a tourny prospective included somewhere upwards of 20 Brainwashes. > >The concept here being that his prey has no chance of bringing out vamps >at all (since you can multiple Brainwash a minion in the inactive, and >someone correct this rule if it is wrong..) Okay...I play a slightly more evolved version of this deck (using Mind Numbs & such to keep the bastards tapped so they can't remove my Brainwashes...), and I don't see how this deck is cheesy. I mean...you *do* know that you can only play one master card a turn unless you have Rumors of Gehenna, the Parthenon, or Anson out, right? Since he can generally only play one Brainwash a turn, it just doesn't get that excessive. I haven't yet swept a table with this deck (actually I've only swept a few times in my playing, ever...); I think the best I've ever done is knock off my prey and then die a slow, horrible death. It's a lot of fun if it gets running, but it almost never does... Xian www.waste.org/~xian

JediMike wrote: > > Robert Goudie wrote: > [clip] > How can you call a deck that CONSISTENTLY gets to the finals (this time with > what? NINE or TEN victory points!?) fragile? Hell, a variation of my deck WON > the tournament. All of my decks consistently get to the finals. The biggest decision is knowing when to play the deck. If you play the deck when you are least likely to see the counters to it, you will likely have success. As I've said before in these threads, I think I made the wrong deck choice (as you obviously did) but I was just luckier than you were (preys committing suicide, seating, etc.). The "variation" on your presence weenie deck was rather significant. He was concerned about defense. It had wakes, some larger vamps, and more majesties. He was the lowest seed coming in and he won because of his defense. The bleed wasn't very agressive. [clip] > > By the way, Mike, your 2 different Stealth Bleed decks are also cheesy > > by some people's standards. > > Maybe so, but at least those two decks combine Blood Management Isn't "Blood Management" just another term for Minion Tap/5th Tradition? Isn't this kind of 2-card combo, resulting in an approximately 10 pool gain just the kind of stuff my weenie decks were created to threaten? Let's not forget Steve Bucy's reign as the top LA player where he consistently played extremely large vampires. > Combat defense, as well as Stealth Bleed offense. Remember the 3 hour pick up > game with our friend from San Diego? My Sheldon Deck VS. his Lasombra deck? > Some MIGHT call it a cheesy deck, but at least YOU know better. I do know better. I know the many subtleties involved in the design and play of that deck. I don't believe any kind of deck is cheesy. I am also aware of the many threats to the deck. > > I think you're going to have to stick to > > your ineffictive decks to avoid the stigma. > > The only stigma I want to avoid is the one where I'm always your prey > wondering which of your five Weenie decks your gonna be playing :) Are you insinuating that there is a problem with weenie fortitude, weenie Night Moves, weenie Cryptic Mission, or weenie potence? You're the guy who owns probably 150 Fifth Traditions. If your first two vampires weren't always 9 Capacity you'd probably suffer a little less from the weenie's speed. [Take THAT!] :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

Xian wrote in message ... > >David Bowsky wrote in message <37BCDBB0...@sonic.net>... > >>We recently converted a M:TG player and brought him into our group. My >>friend and I usually maintain a surplus of extra cards (in his >>possesion) which we freely give to new players as a way of jump starting >>thier own decks. Well, this guys deck, and a very well designed one from >>a tourny prospective included somewhere upwards of 20 Brainwashes. >> >>The concept here being that his prey has no chance of bringing out vamps >>at all (since you can multiple Brainwash a minion in the inactive, and >>someone correct this rule if it is wrong..) > > >Okay...I play a slightly more evolved version of this deck (using Mind Numbs & >such to keep the bastards tapped so they can't remove my Brainwashes...), and >I don't see how this deck is cheesy. I mean...you *do* know that you can only >play one master card a turn unless you have Rumors of Gehenna, the Parthenon, >or Anson out, right? Since he can generally only play one Brainwash a turn, >it just doesn't get that excessive. > >I haven't yet swept a table with this deck (actually I've only swept a few >times in my playing, ever...); I think the best I've ever done is knock off my >prey and then die a slow, horrible death. It's a lot of fun if it gets >running, but it almost never does... That's precisely why this deck is pretty cheesy. It's simple to build (although you can be much more creative and interesting than weenie bleed), easy to play, and can really mess up a game. It usually screws it's prey and then chokes massively. This allows the grand prey to stomp with little or no pressure. I remember some of the games Robert played his. I also remember having discussions with him about it. They where pretty messed up games. Steve Bucy

Robert Goudie wrote in message <37C2B987...@earthlink.net>... >JediMike wrote: >> >> Robert Goudie wrote: (snip) >> The only stigma I want to avoid is the one where I'm always your prey >> wondering which of your five Weenie decks your gonna be playing :) > >Are you insinuating that there is a problem with weenie fortitude, >weenie Night Moves, weenie Cryptic Mission, or weenie potence? None of those is really cheesy. I hate most of them, but I can't really call them cheesy. There is much more envolved in building and playing them and they don't ruin the game environment. Actually weenie fortitude is one of your most creative decks. I certainly couldn't throw one together myself. It bleeds some, does lots of combat, and even blocks (at least it used to). It can be your worst nightmare. However it didn't almost always end the game one way or another in 40 minutes. Steve Bucy >You're the guy who owns probably 150 Fifth Traditions. If your first >two vampires weren't always 9 Capacity you'd probably suffer a little >less from the weenie's speed. [Take THAT!] :-) > [ quoted text not captured ]

Steve Bucy wrote: > That's precisely why this deck is pretty cheesy. It's simple to build > (although you can be much more creative and interesting than weenie bleed), > easy to play, and can really mess up a game. It usually screws it's prey and > then chokes massively. So, if everyone played to win, as several of my associates have been advocating all along, people will note that this deck reliably fails and will abandon it in favor of something more sucessfull. -- Steve Wampler swam...@clarityconnect.com “And then the clouds parted and God said, I hate you, Alfalfa.” -Alfalfa, The Little Rascals

Robert Goudie wrote: > All of my decks consistently get to the finals. The biggest decision is > knowing when to play the deck. You mean if you REALLY want to win, well then it's weenie dom FOR SURE! Now if you wanna have fun and maybe win you'll play any of the other four. Ya, I see the difficulty in that tough decision. But either way, at least you'll pobably get Second place. :) > If you play the deck when you are least > likely to see the counters to it, you will likely have success. As I've > said before in these threads, I think I made the wrong deck choice (as > you obviously did) but I was just luckier than you were (preys > committing suicide, seating, etc.). So which deck exactly, that you currently play, would have been the correct choice? Just curious. > > > The "variation" on your presence weenie deck was rather significant. He > was concerned about defense. It had wakes, some larger vamps, and more > majesties. He was the lowest seed coming in and he won because of his > defense. True. > The bleed wasn't very agressive. > He consistently played Misdirect, then played Legal Manip, then Social Charm, then Intimidation, then Media Influence, oh and don't forget the Aire of Elation. He contested my vampires, Ya I see a big difference, my deck ONLY had Legal Manips. > Isn't "Blood Management" just another term for Minion Tap/5th > Tradition? Isn't this kind of 2-card combo, resulting in an > approximately 10 pool gain just the kind of stuff my weenie decks were > created to threaten? Weenie decks threaten most ALL tournament style decks, especially if your the first prey. > Let's not forget Steve Bucy's reign as the top LA > player where he consistently played extremely large vampires. > In the Inner Circle meeting room at the Hotel's Bicycle Club, a deck like Steve's would be highly praised as a very good deck. How would our weenie decks be rated? Like I said before, some people don't care about that but personally I'm starting to. > > Combat defense, as well as Stealth Bleed offense. Remember the 3 hour pick up > > game with our friend from San Diego? My Sheldon Deck VS. his Lasombra deck? > > Some MIGHT call it a cheesy deck, but at least YOU know better. > > I don't believe any kind of deck is cheesy. Ya, me either. Oh ya, except weenie decks:) > > > > > I think you're going to have to stick to > > > your ineffictive decks to avoid the stigma. > > > > The only stigma I want to avoid is the one where I'm always your prey > > wondering which of your five Weenie decks your gonna be playing :) > > Are you insinuating that there is a problem with weenie fortitude, > weenie Night Moves, weenie Cryptic Mission, or weenie potence? No! Of course not. Well except for the "Weenie" part. > You're the guy who owns probably 150 Fifth Traditions. I own 86! (I went and counted) Not all are in decks, and the others are split between 14 different decks. I HATE trading out cards back and forth between decks. > If your first > two vampires weren't always 9 Capacity you'd probably suffer a little > less from the weenie's speed. [Take THAT!] :-) If YOUR first two vampires weren't always 2 Cap. I'd suffer a HEART ATTACK, cause it meant you finally built a NEW deck!!! [BIF!....BOOF!.....BAM! ] :) Your friend, ***JediMike***

<<snip, I just have one question>> > On the contrary... In my experience, it is extremely common to trade > votes > for favors (within the game). Most often, you get a point of damage > to your > prey off a KRC or some other effect, but I've bought boons like "Don't > bleed > me for two turns" etc. more times than I can think of. I've seen it > in most > tournaments I've participated in, even more so since 7/7 (votes tend > to need > more table support to pass) What's 7/7?? --David bag...@sonic.net

In article <37C4CA28...@sonic.net>, David Bowsky <bag...@sonic.net> wrote: > What's 7/7?? 7/7 as it is commonly refered to, is a set of Rules Team Rules from July 7th of 1998. These, along with the Rules Team Rulings of June 23rd of 1998, were the first new Rulings in quite some time and they caused significant controversy. If you think cheese has created a debate, you should use DejaNews to go back to early July and August of 1998 and look at the hundreds and hundreds of posts on all sides of those issues. Anyway, if you just need to become familiar with the 7/7 Rulings, surf over to: http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra and you can check out each of the last 5 sets of Rules Team Rulings in their original issuing condition. Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra [ quoted text not captured ]

Steve Bucy wrote: > > Xian wrote in message ... > > > >David Bowsky wrote in message <37BCDBB0...@sonic.net>... > > > >>We recently converted a M:TG player and brought him into our group. My > >>friend and I usually maintain a surplus of extra cards (in his > >>possesion) which we freely give to new players as a way of jump starting > >>thier own decks. Well, this guys deck, and a very well designed one from > >>a tourny prospective included somewhere upwards of 20 Brainwashes. > >> > >>The concept here being that his prey has no chance of bringing out vamps > >>at all (since you can multiple Brainwash a minion in the inactive, and > >>someone correct this rule if it is wrong..) > > > > > >Okay...I play a slightly more evolved version of this deck (using Mind > Numbs & > >such to keep the bastards tapped so they can't remove my Brainwashes...), > and > >I don't see how this deck is cheesy. I mean...you *do* know that you can > only > >play one master card a turn unless you have Rumors of Gehenna, the > Parthenon, > >or Anson out, right? Since he can generally only play one Brainwash a > turn, > >it just doesn't get that excessive. > > > >I haven't yet swept a table with this deck (actually I've only swept a few > >times in my playing, ever...); I think the best I've ever done is knock off > my > >prey and then die a slow, horrible death. It's a lot of fun if it gets > >running, but it almost never does... > > That's precisely why this deck is pretty cheesy. It's simple to build > (although you can be much more creative and interesting than weenie bleed), > easy to play, and can really mess up a game. It usually screws it's prey and > then chokes massively. This allows the grand prey to stomp with little or no > pressure. I remember some of the games Robert played his. I also remember > having discussions with him about it. They where pretty messed up games. Do you also remember me winning games? How about the table sweep? I thought that would have finally ended the debate about the deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

Robert Goudie wrote in message <37CAB068...@earthlink.net>... >Steve Bucy wrote: >> >> Xian wrote in message ... >> > >> >David Bowsky wrote in message <37BCDBB0...@sonic.net>... >> > >> >>We recently converted a M:TG player and brought him into our group. My >> >>friend and I usually maintain a surplus of extra cards (in his >> >>possesion) which we freely give to new players as a way of jump starting >> >>thier own decks. Well, this guys deck, and a very well designed one from >> >>a tourny prospective included somewhere upwards of 20 Brainwashes. >> >> >> >>The concept here being that his prey has no chance of bringing out vamps >> >>at all (since you can multiple Brainwash a minion in the inactive, and >> >>someone correct this rule if it is wrong..) >> > >> > [ quoted text not captured ] I remember you winning one game (the table sweep) and getting 2 victory points in another. That was in about 10 games wasn't it? I never saw the deck again after the victory... Steve Bucy

<snipped and cleaned> Robert Goudie wrote: > > > > > >Okay...I play a slightly more evolved version of this deck (using > Mind > > Numbs & > > >such to keep the bastards tapped so they can't remove my > Brainwashes...), > > and > > >I don't see how this deck is cheesy. I mean...you *do* know that > you can only > > >play one master card a turn unless you have Rumors of Gehenna, the > Parthenon, > > >or Anson out, right? Since he can generally only play one > Brainwash a > > turn, it just doesn't get that excessive. Actually he eventually got Anson out.. But from turn 1 the only master card he played each turn was Brainwash. (except for a Sudden Reversal 7 turns into the game) Maybe his deal just worked out that way.. or his draws.. but when you cram 20 of a single card into a 75 card deck (which his was BTW, I asked) then the deck is approximately 26% Brainwash.. (Actually 20 / 75 is an repeating decimal, but who needs the math lesson :)) Correct my statistics here, but if you have a hand of 7 cards, from a base of 75, where 26% of them are repeats of a single card.. isn't there something like a 50% chance of drawing that card?? (My assumption is that if you draw seven cards, and hold seven at all times.. then you have approximately 10% of the deck in your hand. then relating that to the 26% of one card) This is just an estimation.. someone more familiar with this kind of math, please correct it. But in response.. Yes I do consider it excessive, and boring for someone to bust out with a Brainwash every turn, for 6 turns.. then use one every couple of turns after that (He had to put those Blood Dolls somewhere... no, this is not a slam or accusation about blood dolls.) Let me backpedal on one point however. Due to recent threads and conflicting definitions of cheese, I won't call this cheesy... I'll call it Cliche' --David bag...@sonic.net

Steve Bucy wrote: > > Robert Goudie wrote in message <37CAB068...@earthlink.net>... [clip old discussion of Brainwash deck] > >> >prey and then die a slow, horrible death. It's a lot of fun if it gets > >> >running, but it almost never does... > >> > >> That's precisely why this deck is pretty cheesy. It's simple to build > >> (although you can be much more creative and interesting than weenie > bleed), > >> easy to play, and can really mess up a game. It usually screws it's prey > and > >> then chokes massively. This allows the grand prey to stomp with little or > no > >> pressure. I remember some of the games Robert played his. I also remember > >> having discussions with him about it. They where pretty messed up games. > > > >Do you also remember me winning games? How about the table sweep? I > >thought that would have finally ended the debate about the deck. > > I remember you winning one game (the table sweep) and getting 2 victory > points in another. That was in about 10 games wasn't it? I never saw the > deck again after the victory... Naw, the percentages are much worse. I got zero or one VP in probably about the first 15 games. The last four or five times I played the deck it was viable every time (I cut out some cards). I got a sweep once and won another game. The brainwashes are great from my first prey but the deck still has lots of intercept, presence bleeds, bleed bounce/reduction to be able to bust through with some big bleeds anytime someone leaves a tiny open door. [ quoted text not captured ]