Khabar: Honor question

This has been bugging me for a while, actually, but I've been too lazy to ask: is the strike with Khabar: Honor a hand strike, or can it be combined with something like Brass Knuckles or a Sengir Dagger? All the card says is, 'Strike: +3 hand damage'. On a semi-related note, Kali's Fang states that 'Minion with this weapon inflicts 2 aggravated damage each strike'. If someone like Parnassus wacks someone with the Fang, does it do a mere 2 agg (Because The Card Says So, sayeth the Rules Nazi), 2 agg plus 1 normal, or 3 agg? -ru

In article <s62g8q...@corp.supernews.com>, "Ru Hartsell" <ahar...@datacourse.com> wrote: > This has been bugging me for a while, actually, but I've been > too lazy to ask: is the strike with Khabar: Honor a hand strike, > or can it be combined with something like Brass Knuckles or a > Sengir Dagger? All the card says is, 'Strike: +3 hand damage'. The Khabar: Honor is a hand strike. It would have to be worded similar to Undead Strength to affect weapon strikes. > On a semi-related note, Kali's Fang states that 'Minion with > this weapon inflicts 2 aggravated damage each strike'. If > someone like Parnassus wacks someone with the Fang, does it do > a mere 2 agg (Because The Card Says So, sayeth the Rules Nazi), > 2 agg plus 1 normal, or 3 agg? Kali's Fang's damage is not based on "Strength" or hand damage. It does a flat 2 aggravated damage with each strike. No more, no less. Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

In article <s62g8q...@corp.supernews.com>, Ru Hartsell <ahar...@datacourse.com> wrote: >This has been bugging me for a while, actually, but I've been too lazy to >ask: is the strike with Khabar: Honor a hand strike, or can it be combined >with something like Brass Knuckles or a Sengir Dagger? All the card says >is, 'Strike: +3 hand damage'. > Nope. It's only playable with the base hand damage. If it could be combined, it would add "or melee weapon" as per Undead Strength. >On a semi-related note, Kali's Fang states that 'Minion with this weapon >inflicts 2 aggravated damage each strike'. If someone like Parnassus wacks >someone with the Fang, does it do a mere 2 agg (Because The Card Says So, >sayeth the Rules Nazi), 2 agg plus 1 normal, or 3 agg? 2 agg. Kali's Fang is not affected by your hand damage. It just does damage. (Similar to Gas Powered Chain Saw.) I would also respectfully suggest you use a slightly less abusive and emotive term than Nazi when asking such questions in the future. The NetRep, LSJ, does things like this in his free time, and is not on Wizards' pay role. -- James Coupe

"James Coupe" <ja...@obeah.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:xs$X$HB91g...@moodog.demon.co.uk... > In article <s62g8q...@corp.supernews.com>, Ru Hartsell > <ahar...@datacourse.com> wrote: > >someone with the Fang, does it do a mere 2 agg (Because The Card Says So, > >sayeth the Rules Nazi), 2 agg plus 1 normal, or 3 agg? > I would also respectfully suggest you use a slightly less abusive and > emotive term than Nazi when asking such questions in the future. The > NetRep, LSJ, does things like this in his free time, and is not on > Wizards' pay role. I'm sorry if my usage of the term 'Rules Nazi' was mis-understood to be a reference to LSJ, who is someone that I hold in very high regard. I made the assumption that the term was a familiar archetype to everyone...I mean, doesn't every gaming group have that one jerk who plays by what The Card Says and what The Rules State? Those people are the Rules Nazis. In an effort to keep things warm and fuzzy in the group, though, I will refrain from using such a term in the future. In short, Nazis Bad, LSJ Good.

In article <s64meg4...@corp.supernews.com>, Ru Hartsell <ahar...@datacourse.com> wrote: >I mean, >doesn't every gaming group have that one jerk who plays by what The Card >Says and what The Rules State? Those people are the Rules Nazis. Alternatively, they are the people playing the game. -- James Coupe

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: > "Ru Hartsell" <ahar...@datacourse.com> wrote: > > This has been bugging me for a while, actually, but I've been > > too lazy to ask: is the strike with Khabar: Honor a hand strike, > > or can it be combined with something like Brass Knuckles or a > > Sengir Dagger? All the card says is, 'Strike: +3 hand damage'. > > The Khabar: Honor is a hand strike. It would have to be worded > similar to Undead Strength to affect weapon strikes. Correct. K:H allows you to strike for <strength>+3 damage. That strike qualifies as a hand strike, as an aside. > > On a semi-related note, Kali's Fang states that 'Minion with > > this weapon inflicts 2 aggravated damage each strike'. If > > someone like Parnassus wacks someone with the Fang, does it do > > a mere 2 agg (Because The Card Says So, sayeth the Rules Nazi), > > 2 agg plus 1 normal, or 3 agg? > > Kali's Fang's damage is not based on "Strength" or hand damage. > It does a flat 2 aggravated damage with each strike. No more, > no less. Correct. The Fang does 2 aggravated damage when striking, per card text. -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp [ quoted text not captured ]

Parnassus with Kali's fangs does 3 agg damage. If he also used a lucky blow it would be 4 aggrivated.

Jeffrey Moore wrote in message <23226-38...@storefull-146.iap.bryant.webtv.net>... Parnassus with Kali's fangs does 3 agg damage. If he also used a lucky blow it would be 4 aggrivated. Sorry, Jeffrey, but this is partly incorrect. Kali's Fang says :strike 2 aggravated damage. This is true regardless of hand damage bonuses, as Kali's Fang is _not_ a hand strike (it's a melee weapon strike), and it doesn't say that it gains the benefit of hand damage bonuses. Lucky Blow does apply, by card text (Strike with hand or melee weapon at +1 damage) Regards, R. David Zopf Atom Weaver V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC

I disagree. Page 47 vampire rules clearly says "hand damage modifiers may be added to the damage a minion causes with melee weapons ( such as daggers, swords or stakes) . Hand damage modifers may not be added to ranged weapons ( such as fire arms or bows). You do not throw a punch dagger like Kali's fangs at someone, you have it in your hand and stick it to 'em. Senger dagger is the same except it only does 1 dam. Some cards like claws of the dead are for your bare hands with no weapons. We used to fight over this when ppl would "try" to use bang nakh or a sword with claws of the dead or wolf claws. I would argue that growing these big nasty claws out of your fingertips would not make a sword or bang nakhs aggrivated but if you wanted to use , say Angus, with wolf claws with no potece ,he would do 2 agg hand damage. If he struck with a sword he would do 3 regular damage.

> I disagree. Page 47 vampire rules clearly says "hand damage modifiers > may be added to the damage a minion causes with melee weapons ( such as > daggers, swords or stakes) . Hand damage modifers may not be added to > ranged weapons ( such as fire arms or bows). Ok, then using that logic, please tell me what the difference is between Kali's Fang, which says 2 aggravated damage, (or even either of the Chainsaws which do 3 damage) and the Bastard Sword or Bang-Nakh that say +1 and +2 Hand Damage respectively? They are worded differently for a reason. One type, Kali's and Chainsaw, just do the damage specified - that's it, unless there is some other outside effect such as undead strength which specifically modifies meelee weapon damage. The other type does damage based on the vampire's base strength which is typically 1 unless stated otherwise as in the case of Parnassus. > You do not throw a punch dagger like Kali's fangs at someone, > you have it in your hand and stick it to 'em. Senger dagger is the > same except it only does 1 dam. Right. And that's all it does unless you use Undead Strenght or another card that has a similar template. > Some cards like claws of the dead are for your bare hands > with no weapons. The reasoning behind this is the same as the reasoning behind the fact that Parnassus + Kali's Fang still only does 2 agg damage as opposed to 3. It is a weapon strike doing weapon damage that is not at all affected by 'hands'. Sorrow

I feel the creators intended on giving these +1 hand damage vamps extra OOOMPH on their strikes, be it with or without a melee weapon. This is the ONLY time that this +1 hand damage without a card is added to any melee weapon. I know it's blurry but my group has been over this a million times and it's like this: I would hate it MORE to be stabbed or hacked with a kali's fang or chainsaw by Parnassus than say Doll Face. Don't worry, we don't use scorpion stings with weapons or anything like that. These vamps are naturally stronger even before Potence or whatever is used. Papa smurf always says (just kidding!!) that hand damage modifers are added to melee weapons. I remember calling the 800 number like 3 or 4 years ago about this and they agreed so we stuck to it. I also recall seeing something about this in the Duelist. I will dig them up soon and re-read them. I totally understand where you are coming from though. But man, it's FUN to slice a stupid Gangrel or Ventrue and not have them be able to heal all aggrivated damage all the time. Try it, you'll like it :) Later! Jeff Prince of Cleveland Selma's head is in glass on my fireplace

Jeffrey Moore wrote in message <10515-38...@storefull-141.iap.bryant.webtv.net>... Later! Jeff Prince of Cleveland Selma's head is in glass on my fireplace Ughn, blech!! Throw it in the fire...:-) [ quoted text not captured ]

Jeffrey Moore wrote in message <10515-38...@storefull-141.iap.bryant.webtv.net>... > Papa smurf always says (just kidding!!) that hand damage modifers >are added to melee weapons. I remember calling the 800 number like 3 or >4 years ago about this and they agreed so we stuck to it. I also recall >seeing something about this in the Duelist. I will dig them up soon and >re-read them. Errm. As to that, are you using the revised rulebook (online PDF version)? Or are you using the little pamphlet that comes with a starter deck? That might be the source of dispute. I couldn't find the p.47 reference you cited in the revised rulebook... As for that 800 number, you might as well call 800-POKEMON or 800-MAGICTG to get an accurate VTES ruling from the phone banks at WotC :-) They've been well known for several years on this NG for their ignorance of the game... Note: I have absolutely no problem with playing Kali's Fang as you say, but I suspect that it'll turn out to be a worthy house rule, rather than a RT supported interpretation. All that means is to not expect it to wash at a DCI tourney, and all is well... Regards, R. David Zopf Atom Weaver V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC I totally understand where you are coming from though. But man, it's FUN to slice a stupid Gangrel or Ventrue and not have them be able to heal all aggrivated damage all the time. Try it, you'll like it :) [ quoted text not captured ]

> Sorry, Jeffrey, but this is partly incorrect. Kali's Fang says :strike 2 > aggravated damage. This is true regardless of hand damage bonuses, as > Kali's Fang is _not_ a hand strike (it's a melee weapon strike), and it > doesn't say that it gains the benefit of hand damage bonuses. > Lucky Blow does apply, by card text (Strike with hand or melee weapon at > +1 damage) But, if Kali's Fang does no more than 2 agg when Parnassus smacks someone upside the head with it (since the Fang clearly states that it does 2 agg per strike), then why does the bonus from Lucky Blow or Undead Strength apply? Or, in a similar vein, why would the additional bonus from Increased Strenth (+1 or +2 to all Potence strikes for the round) apply to the Undead Strength, but not the bonus from Death of my Conscience? Color me confused. -ru

"Ru Hartsell" <ahar...@datacourse.com> wrote: > > Sorry, Jeffrey, but this is partly incorrect. Kali's Fang says :strike 2 > > aggravated damage. This is true regardless of hand damage bonuses, as > > Kali's Fang is _not_ a hand strike (it's a melee weapon strike), and it > > doesn't say that it gains the benefit of hand damage bonuses. > > Lucky Blow does apply, by card text (Strike with hand or melee weapon > at > > +1 damage) > > But, if Kali's Fang does no more than 2 agg when Parnassus smacks someone > upside the head with it (since the Fang clearly states that it does 2 agg > per strike), then why does the bonus from Lucky Blow or Undead Strength > apply? Because of card text on Lucky Blow and/or Undead Strength: "use your ... melee weapon at +N damage" Since the Fang is a melee weapon, a lucky blow strike can use it for increased damage. > Or, in a similar vein, why would the additional bonus from Increased > Strenth (+1 or +2 to all Potence strikes for the round) apply to the Undead > Strength, but not the bonus from Death of my Conscience? Card text again. Increased Strength only increases the damage done by Potence strikes. Death of My Conscience is not a strike, but it is a strength modifier. If, after playing both, you strike with a Undead Strength (a Potence strike), then you get the bonus for Increase Strength as well as for DomC (and for Undead Strength). [ quoted text not captured ]

Ru Hartsell wrote in message ... >> Sorry, Jeffrey, but this is partly incorrect. Kali's Fang says :strike 2 >> aggravated damage. This is true regardless of hand damage bonuses, as >> Kali's Fang is _not_ a hand strike (it's a melee weapon strike), and it >> doesn't say that it gains the benefit of hand damage bonuses. >> Lucky Blow does apply, by card text (Strike with hand or melee weapon >at >> +1 damage) > >But, if Kali's Fang does no more than 2 agg when Parnassus smacks someone >upside the head with it (since the Fang clearly states that it does 2 agg >per strike), then why does the bonus from Lucky Blow or Undead Strength >apply? Or, in a similar vein, why would the additional bonus from Increased >Strenth (+1 or +2 to all Potence strikes for the round) apply to the Undead >Strength, but not the bonus from Death of my Conscience? > >Color me confused. > Parnassus' hand damage bonus applies to Hand Strikes. A strike with Kali's Fang is a Melee Weapon Strike. By card specific text, a Lucky Blow or Undead Strength may be selected, naming a melee weapon upon playing the card. This would make a strike with Lucky Blow, naming Kali's Fang a Melee Weapon Strike (precluded by Immortal Grapple, etc, etc). A strike with Undead Strength naming Kali's Fang would be a melee weapon strike, and would count, too, as a potence strike for the purposes of Increased Strength. The most important thing to remember is that Kali's Fang does _not_ have card text that refers to the hand damage of the wielder (like a Bastard Sword does). It only says: "Strike: 2 aggravatede damage" I have been unable to find the rule that was cited by Jeff Moore about all melee weapons gaining the vampire's hand damage bonus in the current Rulebook, and so cannot support his interpretation. Hope this clarifies... [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@wizards.com> wrote in message news:850c73$gg7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com... > If, after playing both, you strike with a Undead Strength (a Potence > strike), then you get the bonus for Increase Strength as well as > for DomC (and for Undead Strength). Okay, I think that I understand it (sorta), but I have one more example/question about all of this, which sorta lays out the crux of my problem/confusion. Husamettin is cruising around with Kali's Fang, having acquired superior Potence, when he gets jumped by Leatherface. Husamettin plays Increased Strength (+2 to strikes requiring Potence) and Death of my DomC, discarding 4 cards (adding another 8 to his strength). Now, as I read what you said, there are two ways that this could play out, assuming that Husamettin has a Pushing the Limit in his hand: A) Husamettin just sticks Leatherface with the Fang (forgoing the use of Pushing the Limit) for a grand total of 2 agg, as per Fang text. B) Husamettin uses Pushing the Limit, doing 15 agg -- 2 (Fang) +3 (PtL) +2 (IS) +8 (DomC) Now, I suppose that I could have misunderstood your answer, leaving another possibility: C) Husamettin uses Pushing the Limit for a total of 7 agg -- 2 (Fang) +3 (PtL) +2 (IS) Now, if B is a legal interpretation of the rules, then I have a hard time understanding why the 8 from DomC would apply to the Pushing the Limit/Increased Strength attack and not to a vanilla Fang attack. -ru

In article <s76rmnq...@corp.supernews.com>, Ru Hartsell <ahar...@datacourse.com> writes >why does the bonus from Lucky Blow or Undead Strength >apply? If it references a melee weapon, it counts. Parnassus' "+1 hand damage" does not reference a melee weapon. -- James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England) Vampire: Elder Kindred Network http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net http://www.obeah.demon.co.uk

In article <s77ong...@corp.supernews.com>, Ru Hartsell <ahar...@datacourse.com> writes > >Now, if B is a legal interpretation of the rules, then I have a hard time >understanding why the 8 from DomC would apply to the Pushing the >Limit/Increased Strength attack and not to a vanilla Fang attack. Pushing the Limit references melee weapons in their additions, which the plain vanilla fang attack does not. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Ru Hartsell" <ahar...@datacourse.com> wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@wizards.com> wrote: > > If, after playing both, you strike with a Undead Strength (a Potence > > strike), then you get the bonus for Increase Strength as well as > > for DomC (and for Undead Strength). > > Okay, I think that I understand it (sorta), but I have one more > example/question about all of this, which sorta lays out the crux > of my problem/confusion. > > Husamettin is cruising around with Kali's Fang, having acquired > superior Potence, when he gets jumped by Leatherface. Husamettin > plays Increased Strength (+2 to strikes requiring Potence) and > Death of my [Conscience], discarding 4 cards (adding another 8 to his > strength). OK. So now his strength is 9, and he has a standing effect that will add 2 damage to any potence strike he makes. > Now, as I read what you said, there are two ways that this could > play out, assuming that Husamettin has a Pushing the Limit in his > hand: > > A) Husamettin just sticks Leatherface with the Fang (forgoing the > use of Pushing the Limit) for a grand total of 2 agg, as per Fang > text. Correct. Fang is not a potence strike, nor does it base its damage on the striking minion's strength. > B) Husamettin uses Pushing the Limit, doing 15 agg -- 2 (Fang) +3 > (PtL) +2 (IS) +8 (DomC) No. Pushing The Limit allows you to use your melee weapon at +3 damage. If your melee weapon isn't based on strength, then your strength still won't matter. The base strike is: Fang (2 agg). With Pushing the Limit (superior), it becomes: Fang+3 (5 agg). Since PtL is a potence strike, it is modified by IS: Fang+3+2 (7 agg). DomC doesn't come into play, since the strike's damage isn't based on the minion's strength. > Now, I suppose that I could have misunderstood your answer, leaving > another possibility: > > C) Husamettin uses Pushing the Limit for a total of 7 agg -- 2 (Fang) > +3 (PtL) +2 (IS) Correct. [ quoted text not captured ]