Ancient Hearts - Blood to Water

ta...@HUB.ofthe.NET wrote: > > Overall, I have to say Ancient Hearts was a good set, however, I do > have a serious problem with one card in particular. Blood to Water. > > For those who haven't seen the card, I'll quote it to you. > > Thaumaturgy [Combat] 2 blood > > Only useable before strike resolution > > Inferior: If the opposing minion is a vampire, > he or she burns 3 blood; > otherwise, he or she is burned. > Not useable during the first round > of combat. > > Superior As above, but if the opposing minion > is a vampire, he or she burns > 5 blood. > > Now, I called WOC customer service and they confirmed that it is > unpreventable since it isn't damage and isn't a strike so it can't be > dodged. It can also be played after strikes have been declared, so > even a strike: combat ends is almost useless (Which is the only way to > avoid getting burned). > > I find this card wholly unfair and unreasonable. There is no > comperabale card in any other discipline that can do this and at least > aggravated damage can be prevented. > > I would like some other input, am I off base or alone on this > evalutation? I think this card was actually a real neccessity.. I think the original point of the Tremere was don't EVER go to a second round with them.. other than their devastating second-round cards, they really didn't fare well as a combat deck.. especially against any deck with Celerity.. now, I can't imagine ever wanting to go to second round with a Tremere again, even with 2 or 3 dodges in my hand... WyldStar

In article <Pine.NXT.3.91.960604132451.456E-100000@pentose>, The Corrupter <sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu> wrote: > On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, WildStar wrote: > > > ta...@HUB.ofthe.NET wrote: > > > > Overall, I have to say Ancient Hearts was a good set, however, I do > > > have a serious problem with one card in particular. Blood to Water. > > > Thaumaturgy [Combat] 2 blood > > > Only useable before strike resolution > > > Inferior: If the opposing minion is a vampire, > > > he or she burns 3 blood; > > > otherwise, he or she is burned. > > > Not useable during the first round > > > of combat. > > > Superior As above, but if the opposing minion > > > is a vampire, he or she burns > > > 5 blood. > > > > Now, I called WOC customer service and they confirmed that it is > > > unpreventable since it isn't damage and isn't a strike so it can't be > > > dodged. It can also be played after strikes have been declared, so > > > even a strike: combat ends is almost useless (Which is the only way to > > > avoid getting burned). > > Not true. If a vampire doesn't have the blood available when forced to > burn blood, it simply doesn't burn the rest and remains empty. It is not > taking damage and so would not be sent to torpor or burned. A follow-up > walk of flame would do the trick to burn you, but this can still be > dodged, etc... Actually this is a case where the card overrides the rules. Blood to Water says in the inferior version ". . .he or she burns 3 blood; otherwise, he or she is burned." I have more of a problem with the fact that it can be played after strikes are declared, but before they resolve. Things are beginning to smell like magic timing rules around here. eech -- R. Brian Smith tam...@nurk.com "To date, your phone tips have led to the capture of 400 dangerous fugitives ã not one alien, not one sewer monster, not even a vampire. . . . GET WITH IT PEOPLE!" -Gillian Anderson

WildStar <Wyld...@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >ta...@HUB.ofthe.NET wrote: >> >> Overall, I have to say Ancient Hearts was a good set, however, I do >> have a serious problem with one card in particular. Blood to Water. >> >> For those who haven't seen the card, I'll quote it to you. >> >> Thaumaturgy [Combat] 2 blood >> >> Only useable before strike resolution >> >> Inferior: If the opposing minion is a vampire, >> he or she burns 3 blood; >> otherwise, he or she is burned. >> Not useable during the first round >> of combat. >> >> Superior As above, but if the opposing minion >> is a vampire, he or she burns >> 5 blood. >> >> Now, I called WOC customer service and they confirmed that it is >> unpreventable since it isn't damage and isn't a strike so it can't be >> dodged. It can also be played after strikes have been declared, so >> even a strike: combat ends is almost useless (Which is the only way to >> avoid getting burned). >> >> I find this card wholly unfair and unreasonable. There is no >> comperabale card in any other discipline that can do this and at least >> aggravated damage can be prevented. >> >> I would like some other input, am I off base or alone on this >> evalutation? > > >I think this card was actually a real neccessity.. I think the original point >of the Tremere was don't EVER go to a second round with them.. other than >their devastating second-round cards, they really didn't fare well as a >combat deck.. especially against any deck with Celerity.. now, I can't >imagine ever wanting to go to second round with a Tremere again, even with 2 >or 3 dodges in my hand... > >WyldStar Holy Cow!! All I have to say is Thoughts Betrayed and Blood to Water. Maybe have a hog in there or something. The Tremere were a less p= owerful combat deck, as opposed to Brujha and such, but this card bring the Tremere to where they should be a very nasty 2nd round c= ombat clan. Actually I too feel they needed this card in order mantain a descent combat ability. Its not unstopable. Tap Elysium,= Strike Combat Ends in the first round, but get out of combat BEFORE the 2nd round. One question, it looks to me that the damage from this card would be resolved before the strike resolutions and thus if the vamp= ire was burned do to the card the other strikes from the round are as usual. Another card that has the none dodge ability of this one is the new AN card Sting of the Scorpion ? At Superior the strike ca= n not be dodged. Can we say Wolf Claws, The Gangrel now also are somewhat back in the game, not to say they ever left. I guess it will take some playing of the card to see if it truly unbalances the game, or just makes it harder for certain decks to c= ontrol the game. Aaron "Walka, Walka, Walka, Walk o' Flame"

By the way, who can be burned with this? The vampire who can't burn 3 blood or an opposing minion who isn't a vampire? I'd prefer the minion because like others said, this card is really dangerous. (Help Tom!) Steph

Yup I have to agree with you. That card is rediculous. It would be one thing if more people had Thaumatugy but since that skill is pretty much exclusively Tremere that make for a really poor card. Everett Littles Cal Poly SLO Business MIS http://www.calpoly.edu/~elittles/park.html Clan Ravnos Home Page

On 4 Jun 1996, Aaron Foss wrote: > Holy Cow!! [Re: blood to waters power: Combat: before range burn 3/5 blood or kill ally] > One question, it looks to me that the damage from this card would be resolved > before the strike resolutions and thus if the vampire was burned do to > the card the other strikes from the round are as usual. The vampire cannot be burned by this card. Burning blood is not damage, and similarly to stealing blood, excess blood that must be burnt "rolls off". "I can send and receive e-mail even over the Internet"-aol commercial @#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$ # Adrian Sullivan sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu Spoutingly yours 8^) # $ GAT/CS/O/WS R+++* tv&--- b++(+++)&+ t X++&-- 5->? e+*>++++ PS+&-+ @ # PE&++&- C(+++)$ UX+>+++$ N++(+) K+>++++ w---$>? M++$ r(+) z*+? 3.1# @#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$@#$

On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, WildStar wrote: > ta...@HUB.ofthe.NET wrote: > > Overall, I have to say Ancient Hearts was a good set, however, I do > > have a serious problem with one card in particular. Blood to Water. > > Thaumaturgy [Combat] 2 blood > > Only useable before strike resolution > > Inferior: If the opposing minion is a vampire, > > he or she burns 3 blood; > > otherwise, he or she is burned. > > Not useable during the first round > > of combat. > > Superior As above, but if the opposing minion > > is a vampire, he or she burns > > 5 blood. > > Now, I called WOC customer service and they confirmed that it is > > unpreventable since it isn't damage and isn't a strike so it can't be > > dodged. It can also be played after strikes have been declared, so > > even a strike: combat ends is almost useless (Which is the only way to > > avoid getting burned). Not true. If a vampire doesn't have the blood available when forced to burn blood, it simply doesn't burn the rest and remains empty. It is not taking damage and so would not be sent to torpor or burned. A follow-up walk of flame would do the trick to burn you, but this can still be dodged, etc... > > I find this card wholly unfair and unreasonable. There is no > > comperabale card in any other discipline that can do this and at least > > aggravated damage can be prevented. But this "damage" doesn't actually cause damage and cannot burn. It needs to be used in combination with another 2nd round card to be truly devastating. The larger the combo becomes (1st round card, press, Blood to Water, other 2nd round fry = 4 cards, of which 2 are useless by themselves (the 2nd round cards)), the more focused the deck has to become to get the combo off. Otherwise, the card will _usually_ waste deck space. > I think this card was actually a real neccessity.. I think the original point > of the Tremere was don't EVER go to a second round with them.. other than > their devastating second-round cards, they really didn't fare well as a > combat deck.. especially against any deck with Celerity.. now, I can't > imagine ever wanting to go to second round with a Tremere again, even with 2 > or 3 dodges in my hand... A good evaluation, I think. [ quoted text not captured ]

ta...@HUB.ofthe.NET wrote: : Overall, I have to say Ancient Hearts was a good set, however, I do : have a serious problem with one card in particular. Blood to Water. : For those who haven't seen the card, I'll quote it to you. : Thaumaturgy [Combat] 2 blood : Only useable before strike resolution : Inferior: If the opposing minion is a vampire, : he or she burns 3 blood; : otherwise, he or she is burned. : Not useable during the first round : of combat. : Superior As above, but if the opposing minion : is a vampire, he or she burns : 5 blood. : Now, I called WOC customer service and they confirmed that it is : unpreventable since it isn't damage and isn't a strike so it can't be : dodged. It can also be played after strikes have been declared, so : even a strike: combat ends is almost useless (Which is the only way to : avoid getting burned). : I find this card wholly unfair and unreasonable. There is no : comperabale card in any other discipline that can do this and at least : aggravated damage can be prevented. : I would like some other input, am I off base or alone on this : evalutation? No, you are right. I bought a few packs of AH, and it was one of the first cards that I saw. It is TOO POWERFULL! Blood to Water is unblanced, considering that such combos like "blood to water, then cauldron of blood, blur, blood to water and another cauldron" would be too easy. This is the type of card that I was talking about in my "Hug a Nosferatu" post, clans like the Tremere are FAR TOO POWERFULL. This card only makes the gap between the Tremere and other clans larger... Guess it's time to stock up on the "Thought's Betrayed" :) .

In article <tamzen-0406...@slip-26-11.ots.utexas.edu>, R. Brian Smith <tam...@nurk.com> wrote: >In article <Pine.NXT.3.91.960604132451.456E-100000@pentose>, The Corrupter ><sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu> wrote: > >> On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, WildStar wrote: >> >> > ta...@HUB.ofthe.NET wrote: >> >> > > Overall, I have to say Ancient Hearts was a good set, >however, I do >> > > have a serious problem with one card in particular. Blood to Water. >> > > Thaumaturgy [Combat] 2 blood >> > > Only useable before strike resolution >> > > Inferior: If the opposing minion is a vampire, >> > > he or she burns 3 blood; >> > > otherwise, he or she is burned. >> > > Not useable during the first round >> > > of combat. >> > > Superior As above, but if the opposing minion >> > > is a vampire, he or she burns >> > > 5 blood. >> >> > > Now, I called WOC customer service and they confirmed that it is >> > > unpreventable since it isn't damage and isn't a strike so it can't be >> > > dodged. It can also be played after strikes have been declared, so >> > > even a strike: combat ends is almost useless (Which is the only way to >> > > avoid getting burned). >> >> Not true. If a vampire doesn't have the blood available when forced to >> burn blood, it simply doesn't burn the rest and remains empty. It is not >> taking damage and so would not be sent to torpor or burned. A follow-up >> walk of flame would do the trick to burn you, but this can still be >> dodged, etc... > >Actually this is a case where the card overrides the rules. Blood to Water >says in the inferior version ". . .he or she burns 3 blood; otherwise, he >or she is burned." Hmmm, I think the otherwise kicks in when you use this card on a minion other than a vampire. Makes sense too. >R. Brian Smith >tam...@nurk.com -Jasper -- /\ Jasper Phillips (Pit Fiend) ______,....----, /VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|==================="""""""""""" ___,..-' `^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|======================----------"""""" \/ http://www.cs.orst.edu/~philljas/

On 4 Jun 1996, R. Brian Smith wrote: > In article <Pine.NXT.3.91.960604132451.456E-100000@pentose>, The Corrupter > <sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu> wrote: [Re: The contention that Blood to Water can burn a vampire.] > > Not true. If a vampire doesn't have the blood available when forced to > > burn blood, it simply doesn't burn the rest and remains empty. It is not > > taking damage and so would not be sent to torpor or burned. A follow-up > > walk of flame would do the trick to burn you, but this can still be > > dodged, etc... > Actually this is a case where the card overrides the rules. Blood to Water > says in the inferior version ". . .he or she burns 3 blood; otherwise, he > or she is burned." Read it again. The "otherwise" refers to whether or not the minion is a vampire. To write it another way: If (a vampire) { Burn 3 or 5 blood (excess loss ignored, due to game rules) } else { Destroy the non-vampire minion } No cause for alarm. [ quoted text not captured ]

The Corrupter wrote: > > On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, WildStar wrote: > > > ta...@HUB.ofthe.NET wrote: > > > > Overall, I have to say Ancient Hearts was a good set, however, I do > > > have a serious problem with one card in particular. Blood to Water. > > > Thaumaturgy [Combat] 2 blood > > > Only useable before strike resolution > > > Inferior: If the opposing minion is a vampire, > > > he or she burns 3 blood; > > > otherwise, he or she is burned. > > > Not useable during the first round > > > of combat. > > > Superior As above, but if the opposing minion > > > is a vampire, he or she burns > > > 5 blood. > > > > Now, I called WOC customer service and they confirmed that it is > > > unpreventable since it isn't damage and isn't a strike so it can't be > > > dodged. It can also be played after strikes have been declared, so > > > even a strike: combat ends is almost useless (Which is the only way to > > > avoid getting burned). > > Not true. If a vampire doesn't have the blood available when forced to > burn blood, it simply doesn't burn the rest and remains empty. It is not > taking damage and so would not be sent to torpor or burned. A follow-up > walk of flame would do the trick to burn you, but this can still be > dodged, etc... > Actually, the card does state that if the vampyre can't burn it, then the vampire is burned.... <snip> WyldStar

The Corrupter wrote: > > On 4 Jun 1996, R. Brian Smith wrote: > > > In article <Pine.NXT.3.91.960604132451.456E-100000@pentose>, The > Corrupter > <sull...@cslab.uwlax.edu> wrote: > > [Re: The contention that Blood to Water can burn a vampire.] > > > > Not true. If a vampire doesn't have the blood available when forced to > > > burn blood, it simply doesn't burn the rest and remains empty. It is not > > > taking damage and so would not be sent to torpor or burned. A follow-up > > > walk of flame would do the trick to burn you, but this can still be > > > dodged, etc... > > > Actually this is a case where the card overrides the rules. Blood to Water > > says in the inferior version ". . .he or she burns 3 blood; otherwise, he > > or she is burned." > > Read it again. The "otherwise" refers to whether or not the minion is a > vampire. To write it another way: > > If (a vampire) { > Burn 3 or 5 blood (excess loss ignored, due to game rules) > } else { > Destroy the non-vampire minion > } > > No cause for alarm. Actually, I think this card is very, very poorly worded... I had originaly thought it meant burn the vampire if it can't pay the blood.. it should have probably read he or she burns 3 blood; if the minion is not a vampire,... just for clarity's sake.. WyldStar

In article <31B46D...@ix.netcom.com> WildStar <Wyld...@ix.netcom.com> writes: >Actually, I think this card is very, very poorly worded... I had originaly >thought it meant burn the vampire if it can't pay the blood.. it should have >probably read he or she burns 3 blood; if the minion is not a vampire,... >just for clarity's sake.. I have to agree that the card is poorly worded. I will add that it makes sense that if a human or garou had their blood turned to water that it would die but a vampire without blood still exists but needs to hunt desperately.

In article <4p1sfl$3...@news.csus.edu> sac7...@saclink1.csus.edu (Sean A Cordero) writes: >From: sac7...@saclink1.csus.edu (Sean A Cordero) >Subject: Re: Ancient Hearts - Blood to Water >Date: 4 Jun 1996 17:41:09 GMT >: I find this card wholly unfair and unreasonable. There is no >: comperabale card in any other discipline that can do this and at least >: aggravated damage can be prevented. >: I would like some other input, am I off base or alone on this >: evalutation? > No, you are right. I bought a few packs of AH, and it was one of >the first cards that I saw. It is TOO POWERFULL! Blood to Water is >unblanced, considering that such combos like "blood to water, then >cauldron of blood, blur, blood to water and another cauldron" would be >too easy. This is the type of card that I was talking about in my "Hug a >Nosferatu" post, clans like the Tremere are FAR TOO POWERFULL. This card >only makes the gap between the Tremere and other clans larger... >Guess it's time to stock up on the "Thought's Betrayed" :) . That's not exactly true. Most of the time, Tremeres can't even go into a second round of combat. You can use trap, but chances are, if you're playing against anyone else with celerity, you would never get to a second round. That's the major limitation for Tremeres. Can you really expect to get to a second round? Probably not, if you're facing a combat deck. Anyways, it doesn't matter if a vampire is burned or if one is empty of blood and in torpor. For a fast pace game, the result is the game, you're short one vampire.

> > Actually this is a case where the card overrides the rules. Blood to Water > > says in the inferior version ". . .he or she burns 3 blood; otherwise, he > > or she is burned." > > Read it again. The "otherwise" refers to whether or not the minion is a > vampire. To write it another way: > > If (a vampire) { > Burn 3 or 5 blood (excess loss ignored, due to game rules) > } else { > Destroy the non-vampire minion > } > > No cause for alarm. ACK! My already tenuous grasp on the english langauge must be slipping again. Didn't catch that, thanks for pointing it out! [ quoted text not captured ]

There are three strikes against Blood to Water: 1) Not usable on the first round of combat. So combat ends can hose it quite nicely, if used during the first round. 2) You're paying 2 blood for it, so only come out ahead if the opposing minion has at least 3 blood. 3) It cannot, in and of itself, send a vampire to torpor. You have to back it up with some damage, which will typically be avoided by dodges, combat ends, and so forth. Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

R. Brian Smith <tam...@nurk.com> wrote: >Actually this is a case where the card overrides the rules. Blood to Water >says in the inferior version ". . .he or she burns 3 blood; otherwise, he >or she is burned." You are misreading the card. "Otherwise" backreferences to "if the opposing minion is a vampire", i.e., the opposing minion is burned iff it is an ally. To meet your interpretation, it would say "he or she burns 3 blood; if he or she cannot, he or she is burned." [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <4p7rsb$6...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote: > R. Brian Smith <tam...@nurk.com> wrote: > >Actually this is a case where the card overrides the rules. Blood to Water > >says in the inferior version ". . .he or she burns 3 blood; otherwise, he > >or she is burned." > > You are misreading the card. "Otherwise" backreferences to "if the opposing > minion is a vampire", i.e., the opposing minion is burned iff it is an ally. > To meet your interpretation, it would say "he or she burns 3 blood; if he > or she cannot, he or she is burned." Now that has already been pointed out, and I have admitted my shameful mistake. I don't think it necessary to rub my nose in it. I shall not do it again. 8^) ahh, the joys of newgroups. -- R. Brian Smith tam...@nurk.com "To date, your phone tips have led to the capture of 400 dangerous fugitives ‹ not one alien, not [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <Pine.A32.3.91.960604...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu>, Everett Littles <elit...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu> wrote: > Yup I have to agree with you. That card is rediculous. It would be one > thing if more people had Thaumatugy but since that skill is pretty much > exclusively Tremere that make for a really poor card. AH has more widespread Thaumaturgy-- Kalinda (Assamite-6) Kemintiri (FOS-10) at superior Bindusara (Ventrue-9) And there are thaumaturges among Malkavians and Brujah in the basic set. J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com> PGP keys by request

J. Andrew Lipscomb wrote: > > In article > <Pine.A32.3.91.960604...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu>, Everett > Littles <elit...@cymbal.aix.calpoly.edu> wrote: > > > Yup I have to agree with you. That card is rediculous. It would be one > > thing if more people had Thaumatugy but since that skill is pretty much > > exclusively Tremere that make for a really poor card. > > AH has more widespread Thaumaturgy-- > Kalinda (Assamite-6) > Kemintiri (FOS-10) at superior > Bindusara (Ventrue-9) Not to mention Al-Ashrad, the Amr of Alamut, and Parnassus.. two more Assamites with Thaumaturgy... WyldStar [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 9 Jun 1996, WildStar wrote: > > > Yup I have to agree with you. That card is rediculous. It would be one > > > thing if more people had Thaumatugy but since that skill is pretty much > > > exclusively Tremere that make for a really poor card. > > > > AH has more widespread Thaumaturgy-- > > Kalinda (Assamite-6) > > Kemintiri (FOS-10) at superior > > Bindusara (Ventrue-9) > > Not to mention Al-Ashrad, the Amr of Alamut, and Parnassus.. two more > Assamites with Thaumaturgy... There's a Gangrel with it too. I think it's Iliana. -- mal...@macatawa.org Peter Lowe +=+=+ Edmonton, AB VtES web page available soon!

I had seen talk of other vampires with Thaumaturgy, but only scattered lists. So I thought I would write a list of vamps with my favourite discipline for everyone here. Every clan has at least one vampire who has Thaumaturgy except the Nosferatu. I found this rather surprising and hope that is changed in the very near future (but I guess if the next card set is going to be the Sabbat, we'll have to wait a little bit longer ... oh well, can't wait for it :) Assamite: Al-Ashrad - Amr of Alamut (sup) AH Kalinda (inf) AH Parnassus (inf) AH Brujah: Anvil (inf) VTES Gwendolyn (inf) DS Caitiff: Magdelena Schaefer (sup) DS Followers of Set: Kemintiri (sup) AH Gangrel: Iliana (inf) AH Giovanni: Enzo Giovanni (inf) DS Patrizia Giovanni (inf) AH Malkavian: Lucian (inf) VTES Mariel - Lady Thunder (inf) VTES Ravnos: Darius Styx (inf) DS Toreador: Klaus van der Veken (inf) DS Tremere: all but Mustafa Rahman Ventrue: Bindusara (inf) AH So the power is out there for other types of decks, especially if one includes Assamites into their deck. Hope that helps. Chris, lover of Thaumaturgy and those pesky second round Tremere :)