What's the deal with Fast Reaction?

I never could understand the "Fast Reaction" card... Pardon my ignorance... The Jyhad version reads: (Auspex) Only usable after a blocking minion that you control other than this vampire has just completed combat. This vampire now enters combat with the acting minion. This vampire is tapped. The first round of this combat, the acting minion cannot use any strikes. (Superior Auspex) As above, with an optional press. Can anyone please help me decipher this card? Jon

[ quoted text not captured ] Sure. Think of it as a buddy-block. After one of your minions blocks an acting minion (and has completed combat), another of your minions (an untapped vampire with auspex) can play Fast Reaction. The vampire playing Fast Reaction is then tapped and enters combat with that same acting minion. And the acting minion doesn't get to strike during the first round of combat with the vampire that player Fast Reaction. Almost like blocking with two minions - and the acting minion can only punch back at one of them. -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp

Jon Levesque wrote in message ... >I never could understand the "Fast Reaction" card... Pardon my ignorance... snippage >Can anyone please help me decipher this card? > Your predator is in the midst of his turn. He announces a Governed bleed with the loathsome Didi (bleedy) Meyers. Being the silly neonate that you are, you're playing an intercept deck, and succeed in blocking with Isabelle DeLeon. Fearing for her ability to Telepathic Counter (which is directly linked to her pretty features) she Dodges out of combat with a Read Intentions. Lurking in the background, however, is Lazvernius, Thrall of Lambach. You play your Fast reaction with him, a new combat ensues, and Lazvernius gets a free hit at Didi for the first exchange of strikes of the first round, sending her into orbit (if you're good). Didi may not select a strike to just to cycle a card. Note if the opponent of the Fast Reaction could somehow generate additional strikes (Jacko, celerity, etc) they may use those after the initial strike phase. Foul Thamaturgists may also Weather Control, and Fortitudinous vampires may prevent as normal, the only thing prohibited is the intial strike for the first round. Regards, R. David Zopf Atom Weaver (& V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC)

In article <qf2m3.1363$nb2....@wagner.videotron.net>, Jon Levesque <jon...@videotron.ca> writes >Can anyone please help me decipher this card? Essentially, it's a backwards hidden lurker. Let us assume that I, James, take a bleed action against you, Jon, with my vampire Lucretia. You have two vampires out. One of them is Duck, with a Sport Bike. The other one is Sheldon, who has plenty of blood and so forth. However, I have to block you with Duck, if I am to block, since Lucretia has a built in +1 stealth (damn her to hell). So, I block, we get into combat, but Duck isn't doing too well. He can't afford to play any cards I have in my hand nor has the disciplines, say. So, Lucretia and Duck just swap hand damage. Now, thinks you, what if I'd been able to get into combat with Lucretia using Sheldon? Then I'd have been able to show her. I've got this Carrion Crows, Song of Serenity, a Skin of Rock to protect myself, a couple of Increased Strengths and a Burning Wrath that Duck couldn't play, since he was only on two blood. Hey, wait a sec. That's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 cards in my hand. What's the other one? Wow. It's a Fast Reaction. So, Sheldon throws down the fast reaction: VTES Text: " Only usable after a blocking minion you control other than this vampire has just completed combat. Tap this vampire. This vampire now enters combat with the opposing minion. The first round of this new combat, the opposing minion cannot use any strikes. (S) As above, with an optional press." See, Duck was the blocking minion you control (other than Sheldon) who's just finished combat. Sheldon is untapped to play the FR, so tap him. Sheldon then goes into combat with Lucretia (the opposing minion). And, I can pummel Lucretia since she can use any strikes first round. So, I hit her good and hard, and she goes to torpor. Now, if Lucretia had managed to survive the first round, I can go to the second, due to my optional press. At least, I can if she doesn't counter it. -- James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England) Vampire: Elder Kindred Network http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net http://www.obeah.demon.co.uk

> ...the only thing prohibited is the intial strike for the first round. Well I can see nice applications with Thaumaturgy cards such as Walk of Flame or Cauldron of Blood, cards that cannot be used on the first turn, but can very well kill your opponent on the second... Or perhaps is this all too newbiish for you experienced players? Anyone got good tremere strategies for a newbie, while keeping in mind that all I've got for now are Jyhad first ed. cards? Jon "Damn, wish I could've gotten my hands on some Sabbat boosters... My tremeres suck..."

In article <4hdm3.1496$nb2....@wagner.videotron.net>, Jon Levesque <jon...@videotron.ca> writes >Well I can see nice applications with Thaumaturgy cards such as Walk of >Flame or Cauldron of Blood, cards that cannot be used on the first turn, but >can very well kill your opponent on the second. The new combat starts a whole new combat. The first round in that combat is a first round and as such you are not eligible to play Walk of Flame, without first playing a Shotgun Ritual. [ quoted text not captured ]

> The new combat starts a whole new combat. The first round in that > combat is a first round and as such you are not eligible to play Walk of > Flame, without first playing a Shotgun Ritual. Yes, but since the cards states that the acting vampire (in this case, the one who is attacked) can't use any strikes, you probably won't get much damage this turn, and the card also gives you a press with Superior Auspex, so... Jon

[ quoted text not captured ] The best use i've found for Fast Reaction is actually to either deal with Majesty-using presence bleeders or strike: dodgers. The press isn't the best option in this case since they can play it and avoid you in the 2nd round... <rambling deck ideas: ON> the biggest problem i've found with Fast Reaction is that guys with Auspex often don't have good ways to get huge first-round damage... Shotgun Ritual is an expensive way to Walk of Flame someone, and they often just come back out of torpor on their own. Cauldron of Blood is even more expensive, and doesn't "fix" 6-cap vampires. A search for pro/aus reveals: Zebulon, Monique, and Caitlin. All 5-caps, not bad, and Kallista/Dylan are available at 6-cap. Problems with poking someone's eye out is that they WILL just come back out of torpor, so you have to constantly intercept the self-rescue actions -or- diablerize/burn somehow. Yuck. At least Zebby can Sacrificial Lamb them, but he can only do it once per turn and it's awfully expensive. I've been trying to make a wall/poke deck around Kallista and Physchic Projection (kallista blocks, Earth Melds to untap herself, an aus weenie with a pro skill card fast reacts to poke), but it suffers greatly from the same problem. Plus Kallista can't untap when she blocks self-rescue attempts since combat doesn't ensue. So. a search for POT/aus reveals: - 8 total vampires with POT/aus or POT/AUS - cheapest of them is Kendrick, 7-cap Nosferatu Anti - 6 of them are 9-caps or higher Meaning that either skill cards are necessary, or a TON of wakes. The skill card approach seems a little better, since a search for pot/aus reveals 6 more vampires who are either 5 or 6-caps - you could just stack some POT skill cards. But with so little AUS (only Sigrid Bekker has pot/AUS, and you have to use Sheldon to get POT/AUS) available, you're going to need a good way to get intercept otherwise, and that means sport bikes, raven spies, and the like. Conveniently, Kendrick and Sheldon are both Nosferatu-flavoured, meaning you can get some smaller Nossie or Nossie Anti's to go along with them and easily get the OBF you'll need to get the equip actions through. This also cuts down on the number of cards that are getting in the way of your Fast Reactions, Wakes, and combat cards. =) I don't know if such an approach would actually stand up in play. Wakes and their hand-deficiency are necessary since your Fast Reactor is not blocking and can't afford the constant blood drain from FA. You won't have Eagle's Sight available to point it at your prey, so you may be stuck with the 2-VP strategy, especially since this approach is your only defense. Heavy stealth will get past, which is bad. Fast weenie decks will probably get you before you can get everything up and moving. The only saving grace is that with POT, it's not usually difficult to vaporize anything you hit and it often won't be coming back out of torpor. I'll still try it, just for the hell of it, but I don't see it being THAT functional. =) -- Derek (replying by email? remove the nospam from my domain :)

On 25 Jul 1999 15:40:36 GMT, pd...@aol.comANTISPAM (Peter D Bakija) wrote: >Derek S. Ray wrote: >>>So. a search for POT/aus reveals: > >- 8 total vampires with POT/aus or POT/AUS >- cheapest of them is Kendrick, 7-cap Nosferatu Anti >- 6 of them are 9-caps or higher>> > >But if you are using Pot/Aus, why are you using Fast Reaction instead of >Immortal Grapple? With FR you need to have 2 vampires to do the job of one, and >there is nothing saying that it will work anyways. With IG, you just intercept >them, grapple them, and kill them. Well, see the bit below in the original post where i mentioned that the deck probably wouldn't actually be effective. =) I just was idly trying to see how complicated it would be to actually PRODUCE such a deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek S. Ray wrote: >>So. a search for POT/aus reveals: - 8 total vampires with POT/aus or POT/AUS - cheapest of them is Kendrick, 7-cap Nosferatu Anti - 6 of them are 9-caps or higher>> But if you are using Pot/Aus, why are you using Fast Reaction instead of Immortal Grapple? With FR you need to have 2 vampires to do the job of one, and there is nothing saying that it will work anyways. With IG, you just intercept them, grapple them, and kill them. I built a Nosferatu based Pot/Ani/Aus deck and posted it in a fairly recent Nosferatu newsletter (maybe Feb or Mar?)--it had Fast Reactions in it, but after playing it a couple times, I took them out, 'cause they just sucked too much. FR (much like Hidden Lurker) is a card that looks like it should be useful, but simply isn't. The opportunity cost is just too high to have them be worth including in your deck. To pull off a successful FR, you need to have a vampire to intercept with, then a vampire who is untapped (or have a Wake in your hand), and the Fast Reaction, and the way to kill someone. In a deck that can reliably intercept someone, this is pretty unlikely (reliable intercept decks have to have *way* too much intercept to have a viable combat component). You are much better off just finding other ways to do what you want to do--the Tremere have Thoughts Betrayed, which is (now that it is fixed) still far superior to FR and the Toreador have no buisines trying to beat someone up--or if they really feel the need, they can use Psyche! (which is going to be more effective than FR anyway). The Tzimisce can use Dog Pack and/or Scorpion Sting (sketchy, yeah, but still better than FR). Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "Can't find the spoon that we once had, the sugar cubes will melt no more" -Cibo Matto

Derek wrote: >>Well, see the bit below in the original post where i mentioned that the deck probably wouldn't actually be effective. =) I just was idly trying to see how complicated it would be to actually PRODUCE such a deck.>> Ahh, I see :-) The intercept deck I built is actually remarkably effective at intercepting stuff--it is an Ani/Aus/Pot deck with 6 Sheldons, and then a pair each of Sebastian, Kendrick, and Sabine (I basically built the deck just to use her, 'cause I think she is so cute...). Between the rampant Animalism untap from Rats and Cats and Eagle's Sight, it is pretty darned good at intercepting stuff, and has just about enough Potence to be slightly scary--it has much less reliable combat than a Rush deck, but as killing isn't its main purpose, it is usually ok. I really tried to use the Fast Reactions in the deck, but it just failed to work often enough. In playing the deck 3 or 4 times, I think I managed to pull off a Fast Reaction once, and even then, I failed to send the opposing vampire into torpor. I ended up just taking the 6 of them out and replacing them with Drawing out the Beasts, which are just much more effective in general. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <19990725114036...@ng-ff1.aol.com>, pd...@aol.comANTISPAM (Peter D Bakija) wrote: The Tzimisce can use Dog Pack and/or Scorpion Sting No, they can't use Dog Pack as it is a Gangrel specific card. They would have to clan impersonate to Gangrel to use Dog Pack. So, now you have 2 actions and 2 pool. Sounds like Fast Reaction wins to me. Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

On 25 Jul 1999 21:56:53 GMT, pd...@aol.comANTISPAM (Peter D Bakija) wrote: >Derek wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Well, I kept thinking "OK, four card maximum. Wake/Fast React/Increased Strength/Pushing the Limit = 6 damage = should be a sufficient owie for anyone, even if it DOESN'T torporize them. The biggest problem I saw was actually producing enough intercept on all the other little bastards to be functional - even plugging in all the little Nossie/Nossie Anti's with ani and shoveling retainers on made it a 6 card combo - rat's, block, wake/FR/IS/PTL, cat's to untap ... even assuming you had a Raven Spy already on the bugger to begin with. Seems like a thumbs down to me, but lots of fun. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

Richard Zopf wrote: > Note if the opponent of the Fast Reaction could somehow generate > additional strikes (Jacko, celerity, etc) they may use those after the > initial strike phase. [...] the only thing prohibited is > the intial strike for the first round. Fast Reaction denies the opposing minion "any strikes". The penalty applies beyond the "initial" strike of the round. Even Jacko couldn't strike on the first round if he was the "victim" of a Fast Reaction. The victim can play cards that would gain him additional strikes (Blur, etc.), but would still not be able to strike that first round. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote in message <379C524A...@wizards.com>... >The victim can play cards that would gain him additional strikes (Blur, etc.), >but would still not be able to strike that first round. > Whups. That's what I get for reading a partial thread off deja. I got the "may generate additional strikes" part, only. That combined with my severe mistrust of WotC site card text led me to error... [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <7nh3ro$140$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> writes Re: Tzimisce >No, they can't use Dog Pack as it is a Gangrel specific >card. They would have to clan impersonate to Gangrel >to use Dog Pack. So, now you have 2 actions and 2 pool. >Sounds like Fast Reaction wins to me. Depends on what you mean by "winning" of course. A permanent card can be of great value, especially in games where you are playing for the "long haul". Of course, transient cards can be of great value for shocks, not needing preparation and so forth. Of course, though, using FR with anyone restricts you or, at least, encourages you to stick to a blocking tactic. With Changeling and the Other Card Whose Name Escapes Me, Tzimisce bruise and bleed can be a bit of fun to try and pull off. Having to not act so that you can use FR is annoying, when Dog Pack would work on either active or pro-active strikes. In this case, though, I am inclined to agree with you. I find that the Dog Pack is over-priced for what it is. It's unique, IIRC, and costs two pool, and requires clan Gangrel. All of this makes it far, far too difficult to use, and it only stops S:CE, unlike IG which stops a lot more than that (though Dog Pack cares not for range, again IIRC). And, the Tzimisce don't do well out of Dog Pack. Some of their nicer strikes - Breath of the Dragon, (Flesh|Bone)craft - aren't hand strikes, and they have a few dodges too. Dog Pack would unnecessarily hinder them. [ quoted text not captured ]

> In this case, though, I am inclined to agree with you. I find that the > Dog Pack is over-priced for what it is. It's unique, IIRC, and costs > two pool, and requires clan Gangrel. All of this makes it far, far too > difficult to use, and it only stops S:CE, unlike IG which stops a lot > more than that (though Dog Pack cares not for range, again IIRC). And, > the Tzimisce don't do well out of Dog Pack. Some of their nicer strikes > - Breath of the Dragon, (Flesh|Bone)craft - aren't hand strikes, and > they have a few dodges too. Dog Pack would unnecessarily hinder them. Card text:Dog Pack "Minions opposing the minion with this retainer cannot play "combat ends" as a strike." Unless there has been errata that I didn't find, a Clan Impersonating Tzimisce would do fine with Dog Pack against a deck designed for avoiding combat via S: CE. I may be misunderstanding what you mean here though. p.

(TO REPLY VIA E-MAIL, STRIP 'XYXYX' FROM THE ADDRESS) James Coupe <ve...@obeah.demon.co.uk> writes: >In this case, though, I am inclined to agree with you. I find that the >Dog Pack is over-priced for what it is. It's unique, IIRC, and costs >two pool, and requires clan Gangrel. No, Dog Pack is not unique. Looking at the card, I was surprised to find that it (and Dark Soverign's Corpse Minion) cost pool and not blood from the retaining vamp. I see no errata on either of these cards so I take it this is the way it's played. I wonder why the distinction between these and other retainers? As for whether they're worthwile at 2 or not I'm not sure. I suppose if you go all out with Gangrel intercept and are eagerly waiting to play your Body Flare (or whatever), having your victim duck out of it with a cheap S:CE is extremely annoying. (Though I suppose a Dodge would be equally annoying under the circumstances as well.) Fred

Lasombra wrote: >>No, they can't use Dog Pack as it is a Gangrel specific card. They would have to clan impersonate to Gangrel to use Dog Pack. So, now you have 2 actions and 2 pool. Sounds like Fast Reaction wins to me.>> Good point. I was thinking that Dog Pack was an Animalism card for a while there. Perhaps I should put down the crack pipe... [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> wrote: <snip> > Tremere have Thoughts Betrayed, which is (now that it is fixed) still far > superior to FR and the Toreador have no buisines trying to beat someone up ...hey! That wasn't nice <g> -- Ethan Burrow - Prince of Austin et...@ddg.com http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/