Allies & Sunlight

There are a number of of cards, available to vampires, that seem to represent the ability to operate by sunlight: Dawn Operation, Daring the Dawn, Day Operation, superior Beast Meld, Alpha Glint (I'm not entirely sure of the thematic significance of the last two). Three of these (Daring the Dawn, Day Operation, superior Beast Meld) make actions unblockable to vampires. Dawn Operation permite vampires to block, but at a price. Alpha Glint is a "combat ends" mechanism. It has always seemed to me somewhat incongruous to me that no similar effects have been incorporated for the benefit of allies. This is precisely why, thematically, Vampires traditionally employ ghouls and hell hounds -- to stop those pesky mortals who come creeping around in the daytime. Most people I know regard Hell Hounds as wallpaper -- too expensive to play, and too fragile to block vampires. But if day-operating allies were more common, then creatures like Hell Hounds would make much more strategic sense. They may be too fragile to block Beast the Leatherface, but not necessarily too fragile to block Jake Washington or Loyal Street Gang (also never played). People concerned that the Imbued are overpowered will of course now howl in panic at my evil proposal to make them even more powerful. But in recent discussions of the imbued, I suggested a "fix" to make them more burnable in combat (not because I thought them too powerful, but because I thought this more thematically appropriate for mortals, and also more "fun"), and it was protested that it would make them too weak. But why not have thematically appropriate weaknesses balanced by thematically appropriate strengths? To clarify, I am not proposing a new cardless rule, just cards usable by allies. I'm not going to propose any specific card designs. Appropriate limitations can be found if felt necessary to prevent their being too powerful: (ie. Vampires with fortitude might be less affected; acting allies, deprived of the support of a Methuselah who has gone to bed, might be unable to replace cards until the end of the action; cards might be limited to specific kinds of actions rather than being all purpose like the vampire-specific cards; actions might be at -1 stealth, etc. etc.)

On Nov 5, 6:40 pm, nyst...@cs.com wrote: > To clarify, I am not proposing a new cardless rule, just cards usable > by allies. I'm not going to propose any specific card designs. > Appropriate limitations can be found if felt necessary to prevent > their being too powerful: (ie. Vampires with fortitude might be less > affected; acting allies, deprived of the support of a Methuselah who > has gone to bed, might be unable to replace cards until the end of the > action; cards might be limited to specific kinds of actions rather > than being all purpose like the vampire-specific cards; actions might > be at -1 stealth, etc. etc.) The Witching Hour Type: Event Place this card in play. Any Methusaleh can spend 4 transfers to add a Time counter to this card. When there are more than 4 counters on this card, any ally reduced to 0 life is removed from the game. When there are fewer than 5 counters on this card, allies have +1 bleed, and when a vampire blocks an acting ally, all damage in the resulting combat is aggravated. Burn all counters on this card when it has more than 9. Any player may discard another The Witching Hour as a discard phase action to add 5 counters to this card.

[ quoted text not captured ] That's a fantastic event idea, if a little bit too biased in favour of the allies for my taste. To make it playable by "both sides of the conflict" so to speak, I'd edit it somewhat: The Witching Hour Type: Event Place this card in play. Any Methusaleh can spend 4 transfers to add or remove a Time counter to/from this card. When there are more than 4 counters on this card, allies get -1 intercept when attempting to block monsters and any ally reduced to 0 life is removed from the game. When there are fewer than 5 counters on this card, allies have +1 bleed, and when a vampire blocks an acting ally all damage in the resulting combat is aggravated. Burn all counters on this card when it has more than 9. Any player may discard another The Witching Hour as a discard phase action to add or remove 2 counters to/from this card. It's almost a game by itself, heh.

Thematically, I would edit the card making it specific for mortal and animal allies, as the other kind of allies are considered monsters, like vampires. The Witching Hour > Type: Event > > Place this card in play. Any Methusaleh can spend 4 transfers to add > or remove a Time counter to/from this card. When there are more than > 4 counters on this card, (mortal and animal) allies get -1 intercept when attempting to > block monsters and any (mortal and animal) ally reduced to 0 life is removed from the > game. When there are fewer than 5 counters on this card, (mortal and animal) allies have > +1 bleed, and when a vampire blocks an acting (mortal and animal) ally all damage in the [ quoted text not captured ]

nys...@cs.com wrote in news:1194316857.247697.126160 @k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com: > There are a number of of cards, available to vampires, that seem to > represent the ability to operate by sunlight: Dawn Operation, Daring > the Dawn, Day Operation, superior Beast Meld, Alpha Glint (I'm not > entirely sure of the thematic significance of the last two). Three of > these (Daring the Dawn, Day Operation, superior Beast Meld) make > actions unblockable to vampires. Dawn Operation permite vampires to > block, but at a price. Alpha Glint is a "combat ends" mechanism. > > It has always seemed to me somewhat incongruous to me that no similar > effects have been incorporated for the benefit of allies. > > This is precisely why, thematically, Vampires traditionally employ > ghouls and hell hounds -- to stop those pesky mortals who come > creeping around in the daytime. Most people I know regard Hell Hounds > as wallpaper -- too expensive to play, and too fragile to block > vampires. But if day-operating allies were more common, then > creatures like Hell Hounds would make much more strategic sense. They > may be too fragile to block Beast the Leatherface, but not necessarily > too fragile to block Jake Washington or Loyal Street Gang (also never > played). > ..? You're an advocate for 'thematically appropriate' and yet you assume that the little vampire portrait represents the only resource in which you as a Meth have invested? How odd... Influence a vampire, and you get its whole network of RPG resources in the bargain (financial resources, underlings, havens, etc etc). The cards are just too small to represent the whole resource network accurately. In-game cards representing those resources represent those resources which are poarticularly noteworthy. Its totally not thematically appropriate that allies get vampirically unblockable "daytime actions"... > People concerned that the Imbued are overpowered will of course now > howl in panic at my evil proposal to make them even more powerful. I couldn't care less. Its your interpretation of thematics which bothers me more. How could anyone conclude what you do thematically is beyond me... > But in recent discussions of the imbued, I suggested a "fix" to make > them more burnable in combat (not because I thought them too powerful, > but because I thought this more thematically appropriate for mortals, > and also more "fun"), and it was protested that it would make them too > weak. But why not have thematically appropriate weaknesses balanced > by thematically appropriate strengths? > Some strengths can be too strong, even if thematically appropriate (and again, what you propose isn't thematically appropriate, either). In order to be interesting and thematically appropriate, VTES should remain a game where defense is easier to establish than offense. DaveZ Atom Weaver

atomweaver wrote: > nys...@cs.com wrote in news:1194316857.247697.126160 > @k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com: > >> There are a number of of cards, available to vampires, that seem to >> represent the ability to operate by sunlight: Dawn Operation, Daring >> the Dawn, Day Operation, superior Beast Meld, Alpha Glint (I'm not >> entirely sure of the thematic significance of the last two). Three of >> these (Daring the Dawn, Day Operation, superior Beast Meld) make >> actions unblockable to vampires. Dawn Operation permite vampires to >> block, but at a price. Alpha Glint is a "combat ends" mechanism. >> >> It has always seemed to me somewhat incongruous to me that no similar >> effects have been incorporated for the benefit of allies. >> >> This is precisely why, thematically, Vampires traditionally employ >> ghouls and hell hounds -- to stop those pesky mortals who come >> creeping around in the daytime. Most people I know regard Hell Hounds >> as wallpaper -- too expensive to play, and too fragile to block >> vampires. But if day-operating allies were more common, then >> creatures like Hell Hounds would make much more strategic sense. They >> may be too fragile to block Beast the Leatherface, but not necessarily >> too fragile to block Jake Washington or Loyal Street Gang (also never >> played). >> > > ...? You're an advocate for 'thematically appropriate' and yet you assume > that the little vampire portrait represents the only resource in which > you as a Meth have invested? How odd... Influence a vampire, and you > get its whole network of RPG resources in the bargain (financial > resources, underlings, havens, etc etc). The cards are just too small to > represent the whole resource network accurately. In-game cards > representing those resources represent those resources which are > poarticularly noteworthy. Its totally not thematically appropriate that > allies get vampirically unblockable "daytime actions"... Then what do Day Operation and Daring the Dawn represent? What happened to the network? Whatever Day Operation represents, nystulc is just suggesting a parallel (thematically and functionally) for other minions that have the capability to perform operations in the day. It is an obvious avenue of investigation (no offense, nystulc).

On Nov 6, 9:32 am, atomweaver <atomwea...@hotmail.com> wrote: > ..? You're an advocate for 'thematically appropriate' .... Correct. > [...] and yet you assume > that the little vampire portrait represents the only resource in which > you as a Meth have invested? Incorrect. > How odd... Influence a vampire, and you > get its whole network of RPG resources in the bargain (financial > resources, underlings, havens, etc etc). Incorrect. For example, you don't get his hell hounds or other allies. > The cards are just too small to > represent the whole resource network accurately. Correct. > In-game cards > representing those resources represent those resources which are > poarticularly noteworthy. True. For instance, Allies who can serve as daytime blockers. > Its totally not thematically appropriate that > allies get vampirically unblockable "daytime actions"... I disagree.

On Nov 6, 2:58 am, ga...@virgilio.it wrote: > Thematically, I would edit the card making it specific for mortal and > animal allies, as the other kind of allies are considered monsters, > like vampires. Animal allies? Have a soft spot for Underbridge Stray? Mortal allies is a sensible limitation. [ quoted text not captured ]

> ..? You're an advocate for 'thematically appropriate' and yet you assume > that the little vampire portrait represents the only resource in which > you as a Meth have invested? How odd... Influence a vampire, and you > get its whole network of RPG resources in the bargain (financial > resources, underlings, havens, etc etc). The cards are just too small to > represent the whole resource network accurately. In-game cards > representing those resources represent those resources which are > poarticularly noteworthy. Its totally not thematically appropriate that > allies get vampirically unblockable "daytime actions"... I have to agree somewhat with Dave, though he may overstate the point. In any case, Day Operation style effects for the Imbued and other allies would likely be horrible for game balance, and it's well established that theme is not a good reason to make poor design choices. The suggestion that players could add cards to their decks to counter such effects is ludicrous. It is already far from possible to defend against all the available delivery systems and still have room to do anything. Additionally, one can certainly invent a thematic explanation for why allies acting in the day aren't unblockable by vampires, because one can pretty much make up a thematic explanation for anything (which is precisely why thematic design choices and arguments are fruitless). Since VTES is a game about vampires, we can assume that anything an ally does is in some way meddling in the affairs of vampires, which is very likely to entail some activity at night for information gathering, social engineering, etc. Even if a mortal attempts to hack computers during the day, he might have to spend some time out and about at night to find the necessary information. Vampires are able to slip by defenses during the day because they already have all of that information, and they can quickly perform day time missions that require it. Moreover, everyone expects mortals to be active during the day. When vampires do it it's particularly surprising, so it is far more likely to provide an effective form of cover. Finally, on a related point, there is no reason to think that an ally's actions all occur within a short time frame. Even when an ally is doing something that doesn't need to involve vampires or their resources (such as learning a power), it might take several days and tipped off vampires could intervene in the night times that come between them. Can we please stop all this theme nonsense? VTES is a strategic card game, and while I do enjoy the theme (I'm a former V:tM player), the card strategy should always come first.

LSJ wrote: > Then what do Day Operation and Daring the Dawn represent? What happened to the > network? They represent the surprise effect of a vampire going out in daylight to get shit done. Nothing happened to the network. The retainers and information gatherers just weren't planning on the contingency of day- walking vampires. > Whatever Day Operation represents, nystulc is just suggesting a parallel > (thematically and functionally) for other minions that have the capability to > perform operations in the day. Mortals and other allies acting during the day is not thematically parallel to vampires acting during the day, which is lucky because a day operation for the Imbued would be terrible for VTES. > It is an obvious avenue of investigation (no offense, nystulc). As long as the investigation goes so far as "Jeez, what a horrible idea this is", and then stops, I totally agree.

jcrossn...@gmail.com wrote: > LSJ wrote: >> Then what do Day Operation and Daring the Dawn represent? What happened to the >> network? > > They represent the surprise effect of a vampire going out in daylight > to get [stuff] done. A possible explanation, sure. But a bit more stretched than the direct one. Elder vampires are unlikely to be surprised that vampires with Fortitude can go out in daylight for "emergency" missions. > Nothing happened to the network. The retainers and > information gatherers just weren't planning on the contingency of day- > walking vampires. > >> Whatever Day Operation represents, nystulc is just suggesting a parallel >> (thematically and functionally) for other minions that have the capability to >> perform operations in the day. > > Mortals and other allies acting during the day is not thematically > parallel to vampires acting during the day, which is lucky because a > day operation for the Imbued would be terrible for VTES. > >> It is an obvious avenue of investigation (no offense, nystulc). > > As long as the investigation goes so far as "Jeez, what a horrible > idea this is", and then stops, I totally agree. Any unbalanced effect would be horrible, sure. But this particular avenue is not horrible from a thematic standpoint. Finding a balanced way of implementing it would be the trick.

On Nov 5, 9:40 pm, nyst...@cs.com wrote: > There are a number of of cards, available to vampires, that seem to > represent the ability to operate by sunlight: Dawn Operation, Daring > the Dawn, Day Operation, superior Beast Meld, Alpha Glint (I'm not > entirely sure of the thematic significance of the last two). Superior Beast Meld represents the ability of a vampire to merge his consciousness fully with that of a living animal -- you're not just commanding it; you're walking around in its skin. Alpha Glint is... well, it's something else. It's a glimmer of awareness in your opponent that you're a bigger predator and he should get out of your way. It's not related to walking in daylight at all. Jason

And who's to say that the allies aren't acting during the day for many actions? An unblocked computer hack could easily be thought of being done during the day, with the prey's vampires unable to react, only to 'wake' in the evening to find that their finacial records have been hacked and a large sum of money disappeared (Pool loss). Even a vampire attempting to block and failing could be though of trying to stop an ally, but dawn breaks, preventing the vampire from intercepting. But if such cards do come into existence, I see no reason why they should be limited to mortals and animals. Vampires are pretty much the only ones with the limitation. Mages are just Awakened mortals, ghouls are mortals who subsist on vampire blood to make them supernaturally stronger. Werewolves, zombies, wraiths, changelings, mummies ... all work fine in sunlight as well as darkness. I personally don't see a problem with such a card, giving appropriate limitations/costs. Now whether such a card would make the Imbued unbalanced is up for another debate, which can only really happen when such a card is developed. Chris, Thrall of Arika

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in news:9S1Yi.18237$Pv2...@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net: [ quoted text not captured ] No, it sure is. Mortals act in the daytime by default. Homo Sapiens sapiens is a diurnal species. Why, thematically, would that confer any advantage on a fictional norturnal preadtor who is 100% accustomed to co- existing with its prey? Thematically, I think of each and every default bleed action by a mortal ally as occuring "during daylight hours" as it is. DaveZ Atom Weaver

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in news:9S1Yi.18237$Pv2.983 @newssvr23.news.prodigy.net: > Finding a balanced way of implementing it would be the trick. Sorry for the double reply... So long as "daytime action" by mortal allies != unblockable by vampires, balanced-implement away. DZ AW

nys...@cs.com wrote in news:1194361958.790859.137130@ 22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com: > On Nov 6, 9:32 am, atomweaver <atomwea...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> ..? You're an advocate for 'thematically appropriate' .... > > Correct. > >> [...] and yet you assume >> that the little vampire portrait represents the only resource in which >> you as a Meth have invested? > > Incorrect. > >> How odd... Influence a vampire, and you >> get its whole network of RPG resources in the bargain (financial >> resources, underlings, havens, etc etc). > > Incorrect. For example, you don't get his hell hounds or other > allies. > Sure you do. Only the particularly noteworthy allies or hell hounds from a given vamps resources happen to be represented in the card game by additional dedicated cards... Similarly, do you think it thematically appropriate that a Methuselah could hod sway over an Antediluvian (say, Sutekh) for such a minor investment? No. In this case, the vampire crypt card represents whatever minor aspect of that Great One's resources which the Meth has managed to gain some sway over... DaveZ AW

[ quoted text not captured ] Permission accepted. Thanks. Moreover, I prefer to examine as many options for thematically appropriate mechanics as possible, rather than dismiss certain of them out of hand.

On Nov 6, 12:58 pm, atomweaver <atomwea...@hotmail.com> wrote: > LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote innews:9S1Yi.18237$Pv2...@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net: > > Any unbalanced effect would be horrible, sure. > > But this particular avenue is not horrible from a thematic standpoint. > > No, it sure is. Mortals act in the daytime by default. Homo Sapiens > sapiens is a diurnal species. Why, thematically, would that confer any > advantage on a fictional norturnal preadtor who is 100% accustomed to co- > existing with its prey? Thematically, I think of each and every default > bleed action by a mortal ally as occuring "during daylight hours" as it > is. > > DaveZ > Atom Weaver- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - That's one way to look at things, but it doesn't necessarily mean that's the way it is. Yes, humans by default aren't a nocturnal species, but we do spend a lot of our waking hours during the night. Heck, it gets dark sometime after 5 nowadays, so you're looking at a good 6 hours of free time that a mortal could be busily at work foiling the plans of your prey. If every bleed was a daytime bleed, how are vampires stopping so many? Plus, at night, it's a lot easier to skulk around and sabotage some part of your prey's resources (aka bleed for pool damage), less chance of being caught by other mortals, or seen in general, as well as less likelihood of innocents getting caught in the cross-fire (if you're one to care about such things). Hunters often act at night, trying to trace movements of vampires. It's a lot easier to find your target when it's moving and acting that it is when it's holed up in its unknown lair. Civil workers have day jobs, and while they can sometimes act on your behalf during that time, they often have other, mundane affairs that need to be taken care of. If you continually abuse their position during their normal working hours, you risk them losing their position, and thus their usefulness. Personally, I see most if not all actions taking place during the night, which explains how vampires can actively attempt to stop whatever actions an ally takes. If all ally actions were meant to be during the day, then there should be default conditions to reflect this, making it harder for a vampire to intercept. If actions go unblocked (especially with no attempts), then it could more easily be thought of as a day-time action. I don't see why vampires have the ability to use daytime to their advantage, but not allies, both thematically and by card mechanics. Chris, Thrall of Arika

On Nov 6, 1:03 pm, Jadasc <jad...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Nov 5, 9:40 pm, nyst...@cs.com wrote: > > There are a number of of cards, available to vampires, that seem to > > represent the ability to operate by sunlight: Dawn Operation, Daring > > the Dawn, Day Operation, superior Beast Meld, Alpha Glint (I'm not > > entirely sure of the thematic significance of the last two). > > Superior Beast Meld represents the ability of a vampire to merge his > consciousness fully with that of a living animal -- you're not just > commanding it; you're walking around in its skin. The ability, I assume, permits daylight operation ... hence you become blockable by allies, but not by vampires. > Alpha Glint is... well, it's something else. It's a glimmer of > awareness in your opponent that you're a bigger predator and he should > get out of your way. It's not related to walking in daylight at all. Thanks for the correction. I wasn't sure -- the artwork suggesting dawn, coupled with the word "glint" and the fact that allies were unaffected, suggested a connection to me.

On Nov 6, 4:40 am, nyst...@cs.com wrote: > It has always seemed to me somewhat incongruous to me that no similar > effects have been incorporated for the benefit of allies. Thematically I can't see any mortal ally conducting Computer Hacking during the day time. In fact, are there any humans in the World of Darkness who habitually get up before the late afternoon? Certainly there weren't many in the campaigns I played in. :) With this in mind, I propose: Caffeine Operation Action Modifier Only usable at the end of a successful action. Untap the acting minion and put this card on them. If the action was Computer Hacking the minion may bleed again with Computer Hacking this turn. The minion with this card does not untap as normal and cannot block or play reaction cards. Burn this card at the end of your next untap phase. A minion may play only one Caffeine Operation each turn. I considered whether this should be restricted to mortal allies only. I don't know what the effects of caffeine on vampires and werewolves are -- and how would wraiths even get the caffeine into their systems? The "does not untap" is of course irrelevant to Baali, but I suppose looking great after pulling an all-nighter is just one of the many advantages of selling one's soul. :) Another possibility is: Early Riser Action Put this card on a mortal ally. This ally has 0 bleed and cannot be blocked by vampires. Vampires cannot play action modifiers while this ally is acting. This ally cannot take the action Computer Hacking. The 0 bleed is because nothing that happens before noon can really be important. Vampires cannot play action modifiers like Cloak the Gathering and Hidden Lurker because, like all sensible people, they are asleep in their coffins. Schiavo Simon

Thrall of Arika <christoph...@amec.com> wrote in news:1194385270....@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com: > On Nov 6, 12:58 pm, atomweaver <atomwea...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote >> innews:9S1Yi.18237$Pv2...@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net: >> > Any unbalanced effect would be horrible, sure. >> > But this particular avenue is not horrible from a thematic >> > standpoint. >> >> No, it sure is. Mortals act in the daytime by default. Homo Sapiens >> sapiens is a diurnal species. Why, thematically, would that confer >> any advantage on a fictional norturnal preadtor who is 100% >> accustomed to co- existing with its prey? Thematically, I think of >> each and every default bleed action by a mortal ally as occuring >> "during daylight hours" as it is. >> >> DaveZ >> Atom Weaver- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > That's one way to look at things, but it doesn't necessarily mean > that's the way it is. Yes, humans by default aren't a nocturnal > species, but we do spend a lot of our waking hours during the night. > Heck, it gets dark sometime after 5 nowadays, so you're looking at a > good 6 hours of free time that a mortal could be busily at work > foiling the plans of your prey. If every bleed was a daytime bleed, > how are vampires stopping so many? Because, "Influence a vampire, and you get its whole network of RPG resources in the bargain (financial resources, underlings, havens, etc etc). The cards are just too small to represent the whole resource network accurately. " Even if a vampire is out for the daytime, it doesn't turn into a blithering moron. Every vampire makes some sort of arrangements for its security during daylight hours. Many vampires have whole networks of defenses which act independently from their own intervention... Perhaps the idea of daylight actions for mortals may confer some slight advantage of acheiving success, (in CCG terms, thats called "stealth"), but the idea that some schmo' being able to do his thing during the daytime automatically confers the ability to _completely_ circumvent a vampire's ability to intervene (ie. make action unblockable by vampires) is patently absurd from a thematic standpoint, and overpowered from an in- game perspective... Davez aw ...any perspective can be thematically supported.

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in news:4I4Yi.18433$Pv2....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net: > atomweaver wrote: >> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in news:9S1Yi.18237$Pv2.983 >> @newssvr23.news.prodigy.net: >> >>> Finding a balanced way of implementing it would be the trick. >> >> Sorry for the double reply... So long as "daytime action" by mortal >> allies != unblockable by vampires, balanced-implement away. > > Permission accepted. Thanks. > Wait, wait... you didn't check with Jannifer and the cat, first!!! ;-) DaveZ Atom Weaver

On Nov 7, 3:46 am, Hodgestar <hodges...@gmail.com> wrote: > The 0 bleed is because nothing that happens before noon can really be > important. LOL -- David Cherryholmes

On Nov 7, 5:44 am, atomweaver <atomwea...@hotmail.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] > ...any perspective can be thematically supported.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - No, never said that a vampire couldn't be effective during the day (though it's not an easy thing for them, they do suffer from an unnatural lethargy during the day). But a vampire's network works for them, not for you (unless it is represented by additional cards in play, such as the pet Hell Hounds). In the end, though, it's hard to abstract away an actual block/combat from anything other than the actual vampire combating the ally. This works fine for directed actions against the vampire (i.e. the ally crept into the home to do some serious damage, and the vampire awoke to confront the intruder). But it makes it more difficult to believe that a vampire got up in the middle of the day, high-tailed it across town and intercepting the offending ally, all while avoided the deadly sunlight. I would also be very against making any 'daytime' cards allowing for unblockable actions. I would be more inclined to follow along with Dawn Operation, where damage is aggravated, or even just that the reacting vampire must spend blood to block or attempt to (using the blood to awaken themselves earlier, which I believe is an actual ability in the RPG). Or simpler effects like giving -1 intercept to vampires/monsters. But then having the card so diluted and matching other cards already, there seems little point to making it. It's about keeping options open, rather than automatically saying 'no' and closing off potential avenues. That being said, allies have unblockable card access already. Project, Incriminating Videotape, Memories, etc. Perhaps a daytime card for some other aspect of play. Daytime Assault making damage in combat with a vampire aggravated. Clearing the Rats Nest doing a point of damage to all members of a certain clan. Of course, empowering allies against should also lead to cards empowering vampires against allies. A balance has to be found that keeps the game fresh and giving chances to explore new ways of doing things, while maintaining game mechanics balance so that one archetype isn't overpowering any other consistently. Chris, Thrall of Arika

On Nov 6, 1:26 pm, Thrall of Arika <christopher.ack...@amec.com> wrote: > And who's to say that the allies aren't acting during the day for many > actions? An unblocked computer hack could easily be thought of being > done during the day, with the prey's vampires unable to react, only to > 'wake' in the evening to find that their finacial records have been > hacked and a large sum of money disappeared (Pool loss). Such an idea is not put to any test until and unless a vampire blocks. > But if such cards do come into existence, I see no reason why they > should be limited to mortals and animals. Nor I, which is why I spoke in terms of such effects being ally- specific. If anything, it is animals who might have trouble acting independently while their masters are asleep. But I'm not sure a Methuselah would have trouble even there. > Now whether such a card would make the Imbued unbalanced is up for > another debate, which can only really happen when such a card is > developed. Right. Which was why I did not bother to suggest a specific design. I'm sure the design team could do a better job than I could. I was just throwing out a wish-list of a theme I'd like to see explored.

On Nov 8, 12:44 am, nyst...@cs.com wrote: > Right. Which was why I did not bother to suggest a specific design. > I'm sure the design team could do a better job than I could. I was > just throwing out a wish-list of a theme I'd like to see explored. Two ideas that occur to me on reading this are: Flagrant Disregard for the Law. Action modifier. Only usable as the action is announced. Requires an ally. Vampires cannot block this action. After resolving this action put this card on the acting ally, this ally cannot block or take actions. Any minion may burn this card as an action that costs 1 pool. Friends in High Places. Action modifier. Only usable as the action is announced. Requires an ally. If this action is blocked all damage in the resulting combat is aggravated. Cost: 1 pool Thematically the first represents your guy getting arrested and having to be bailed out, the second represents spreading bribes around in order to not get arrested. Costs and such can obviously be tweaked, but I don't think either of them would be inherently game breaking. Seamus.

On 7 nov, 13:28, Thrall of Arika <christopher.ack...@amec.com> wrote: > On Nov 7, 5:44 am, atomweaver <atomwea...@hotmail.com> wrote: > No, never said that a vampire couldn't be effective during the day > (though it's not an easy thing for them, they do suffer from an > unnatural lethargy during the day). But a vampire's network works for > them, not for you (unless it is represented by additional cards in > play, such as the pet Hell Hounds). In the end, though, it's hard to > abstract away an actual block/combat from anything other than the > actual vampire combating the ally. This works fine for directed > actions against the vampire (i.e. the ally crept into the home to do > some serious damage, and the vampire awoke to confront the intruder). > But it makes it more difficult to believe that a vampire got up in the > middle of the day, high-tailed it across town and intercepting the > offending ally, all while avoided the deadly sunlight. But if you accept the idea of the Networks seems odd why their resources are not used for the Methuselah's benefit. I mean, I don't think that when you recruit a vampire he says "I'll work for you but you know what? my Hell Hounds are not part of the deal, sure they belong to me but I'm not using them to protect your pool" (whatever you want "pool" to represent here)" If your Haven is discovered and hunters are trying to kill you, the Methuselah that's controlling you want's to protect you because you're an investment, if he's trying to use your Hell Hounds to protect you, you'd say, "wait my Hell Hounds are mine and you can't borrow them even if it's to protect me"?" I mean if the vampire works for you, and their resources works for them why their resources are not considered to work for you too, if those are part of the reasons why you wanted to recruit them? > I would also be very against making any 'daytime' cards allowing for > unblockable actions. I would be more inclined to follow along with > Dawn Operation, where damage is aggravated, or even just that the > reacting vampire must spend blood to block or attempt to (using the > blood to awaken themselves earlier, which I believe is an actual > ability in the RPG). Or simpler effects like giving -1 intercept to > vampires/monsters. But then having the card so diluted and matching > other cards already, there seems little point to making it. I agree, they shouldn't do it :-) > It's about keeping options open, rather than automatically saying 'no' > and closing off potential avenues. That being said, allies have > unblockable card access already. Project, Incriminating Videotape, > Memories, etc. > > Perhaps a daytime card for some other aspect of play. Daytime Assault > making damage in combat with a vampire aggravated. Clearing the Rats > Nest doing a point of damage to all members of a certain clan. > > Of course, empowering allies against should also lead to cards > empowering vampires against allies. A balance has to be found that > keeps the game fresh and giving chances to explore new ways of doing > things, while maintaining game mechanics balance so that one archetype > isn't overpowering any other consistently. > Chris, Thrall of Arika- The problem, as someone else pointed out, it's that it's difficult to include defenses for everything. Mortals right now have an edge because of that, they do better against other mortals, they're not affected by events, or by agg, damage, they can't be burned in combat except by card effects of a few disciplines, so they just include things that hose vampires and they do well. Vampires, on the other hand, have to pack everything to defend against agg. damage, against MoM, against Events, and now would have to defend against daylights tricks. Hehe, Nystulc said that to compensate imbued being burned so easily by his proposal, they should have daylight cards. It seems like LSJ, took the idea as a possibility but said nothing about the imbued being burned in combat or anything like that. That's bad ;-)

[ quoted text not captured ] It's like the old axiom says, you get what you pay for. In my thematics, I don't see influencing a vampire to mean that you totally control them 100%. You are investing in what they are willing to do for you. Vampires all have their own plans and machinations. If I was a vampire, I may be influenced to assist some old Methuselah, but I'd be damned if I would turn over my entire resource network to them. Perhaps I want to keep my Hell Hounds and use them to protect my own interest (outside of game). But if the Methuselah sweetens the pot (say 2 more Pool) well, I could probably be convinced to bring in one of my Hell Hounds to assist in their endeavours (recruit Hell Hound). Now being the Methuselah, if some 'lackey' vampire of mine got found out and attacked in their haven, well, I'd expend some resources to assist them, sure. I've invested a fair bit of my own resources in them. But eventually it would come to a point to cut my losses and abandon them (they get burned). If the hapless lackey was too greedy to give me control over more of their own minions and resouces to the point where they bungle using them themselves, well, perhaps they deserved the stake after all. > I mean if the vampire works for you, and their resources works for > them why their resources are not considered to work for you too, if > those are part of the reasons why you wanted to recruit them? There's a line where control over assets is either the Methuselah or the Vampire. Now I may invest in a sweet new top-of-the-line laptop for my lackey, but I'm not going to sit there and tell them how to go about hacking and destroying the finanacial records of my opponent (Bleed), that's up to the lackey. It's up to them to use their own knowledge and sources to get the job done. > > Of course, empowering allies against should also lead to cards > > empowering vampires against allies. A balance has to be found that > > keeps the game fresh and giving chances to explore new ways of doing > > things, while maintaining game mechanics balance so that one archetype > > isn't overpowering any other consistently. > > Chris, Thrall of Arika- > > The problem, as someone else pointed out, it's that it's difficult to > include defenses for everything. Mortals right now have an edge > because of that, they do better against other mortals, they're not > affected by events, or by agg, damage, they can't be burned in combat > except by card effects of a few disciplines, so they just include > things that hose vampires and they do well. Vampires, on the other > hand, have to pack everything to defend against agg. damage, against > MoM, against Events, and now would have to defend against daylights > tricks. Imbued are affected by numerous events. It's just that there are a number of them that specifically only affect vampires. Aggravated Damage affects Imbued just fine, it's just that they are not any more particularly vulnerable to it. In fact, you could say they suffer more. 1 aggravated damage just sends a vampire to Torpor, it causes the loss of 1 life for an Imbued. The only 'problem' I see is the difficulty in burning Imbued, compared to other minions, Vampires and library Allies alike. I'm starting to like the idea of burning Convictions for excess damage done in combat, representing the Imbued's loss of faith and determination when finally faced with the true horror that some vampires can unleash. If they don't have the conviction, then they burn. Would certainly need to be play-tested some, I don't have the experience against or with using the Imbued to know if this would shift the balance to making them unplayable. But at the moment seems to be a reasonable compromise between the 'Imbued rule all' and the 'Imbued are cake' camps. As to what vampires have to defend against, well, they had to defend against all that before. Memories has been around for a while, and was a staple in ally decks before the Imbued came about. Aggravated damage is always a worry, and clans like Gangrel and Tzimisce were far more effective in dishing it out. Events were a problem before Imbued as well. And vampires have their own daytime tricks already, not that these is much that can be done to 'defend' against it. There's no 'make something unblockable blockable' card beyond those that cancel cards (i.e. Direct Intervention). Chris, Thrall of Arika

[ quoted text not captured ] Of course, but if you recruit them to do something you don't have to give them everything, do you? I mean, you give them an order like "protect this building". He has weapons and Hell Hounds and he knows it could get dangerous you think they bring them or he say "nah, if he didn't give me weapons or Hounds or blood, then I'm going unarmed, alone, and thirsty" Part of their resources is used for their own protection. > Now being the Methuselah, if some 'lackey' vampire of mine got found > out and attacked in their haven, well, I'd expend some resources to > assist them, sure. I've invested a fair bit of my own resources in > them. But eventually it would come to a point to cut my losses and > abandon them (they get burned). If the hapless lackey was too greedy > to give me control over more of their own minions and resouces to the > point where they bungle using them themselves, well, perhaps they > deserved the stake after all. Surely they'd deserved it, and that's why I think they're willing to share some of their resources, not all, but some, because to some extent it's for their own protection, after all, it's a war, they're not playing around. Also, because sometimes they think they're acting by themselves, and that it's important to save the Camarilla or the Sabbat or seize control over a city, and they'd use everything in their power because that's more political power to them and more resources to keep to themselves > > I mean if the vampire works for you, and their resources works for > > them why their resources are not considered to work for you too, if > > those are part of the reasons why you wanted to recruit them? > > There's a line where control over assets is either the Methuselah or > the Vampire. Now I may invest in a sweet new top-of-the-line laptop > for my lackey, but I'm not going to sit there and tell them how to go > about hacking and destroying the finanacial records of my opponent > (Bleed), that's up to the lackey. It's up to them to use their own > knowledge and sources to get the job done. But it's difficult to separate methuselah's resources from minions' because all actions are decided by you, and it's difficult to separate them because even what costs you pool could be to pay to your minion as you say. > > > Of course, empowering allies against should also lead to cards > > > empowering vampires against allies. A balance has to be found that > > > keeps the game fresh and giving chances to explore new ways of doing > > > things, while maintaining game mechanics balance so that one archetype > > > isn't overpowering any other consistently. > > > Chris, Thrall of Arika- > > > The problem, as someone else pointed out, it's that it's difficult to > > include defenses for everything. Mortals right now have an edge > > because of that, they do better against other mortals, they're not > > affected by events, or by agg, damage, they can't be burned in combat > > except by card effects of a few disciplines, so they just include > > things that hose vampires and they do well. Vampires, on the other > > hand, have to pack everything to defend against agg. damage, against > > MoM, against Events, and now would have to defend against daylights > > tricks. > > Imbued are affected by numerous events. It's just that there are a > number of them that specifically only affect vampires. No, they're only affected by Break the Code, there's nothing else that "affects" allies (and imbued) especifically, could be an effect that's usable by everyone but not that "affects" allies, (maybe the player, like no replace when discard, but no the allies) at least not that affects them in a bad way. Are a fair number of events that helps allies, and a fairly big number of events that only affects (in a bad way) vampires. > > Aggravated Damage affects Imbued just fine, it's just that they are > not any more particularly vulnerable to it. In fact, you could say > they suffer more. 1 aggravated damage just sends a vampire to Torpor, > it causes the loss of 1 life for an Imbued. Yeah, but it's not the same. Do you fear aggravated dmg. in the same way, using allies, that when you're using vampires? It's not the same losing 1 life than a trip to torpor, also it's not the same a trip torpor than a trip to a hospital. > The only 'problem' I see is the difficulty in burning Imbued, compared > to other minions, Vampires and library Allies alike. I'm starting to > like the idea of burning Convictions for excess damage done in combat, > representing the Imbued's loss of faith and determination when finally > faced with the true horror that some vampires can unleash. If they > don't have the conviction, then they burn. Would certainly need to be > play-tested some, I don't have the experience against or with using > the Imbued to know if this would shift the balance to making them > unplayable. But at the moment seems to be a reasonable compromise > between the 'Imbued rule all' and the 'Imbued are cake' camps. It's a good idea, yes, it'd need testing, but it does seems reasonable > As to what vampires have to defend against, well, they had to defend > against all that before. Memories has been around for a while, and was > a staple in ally decks before the Imbued came about. Aggravated damage > is always a worry, and clans like Gangrel and Tzimisce were far more > effective in dishing it out. Events were a problem before Imbued as > well. And vampires have their own daytime tricks already, not that > these is much that can be done to 'defend' against it. There's no > 'make something unblockable blockable' card beyond those that cancel > cards (i.e. Direct Intervention). I don't think you're saying that MoM is the same threat now, as it was when the imbued didn't exist in the game, but if you are, I disagree. Also, I don't think that you're saying that any other allies-deck were as commonly seen or as complete as imbued, but if you are, I also disagree. Events were a problem but they're more of a problem now when they don't affect his minions but they affect yours. And daytime tricks are almost in just one discipline and at a great cost for them. Vampires had to defend against all the other things, but there are new threats. Imbued are allies that can play bleed modifiers, stealth modifiers, that have powers and deserve to be treated especially, not like if they were like any other ally, IMHO. Before them, I wouldn't think that we were saying that a card it's valuable because it reduces bleed against allies like now we say about, let's say, Nest of Eagles. I'd say well I'd use other card because it's very unlikely to encounter an ally that bleeds me, reliably, with good delivery mechanism. I better block and kill. It forces you to include something against allies, something that didn't happen before.

On Nov 9, 5:46 am, Kozkak <tecpat...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > > On 7 nov, 13:28, Thrall of Arika <christopher.ack...@amec.com> wrote: > > > It's like the old axiom says, you get what you pay for. In my > > thematics, I don't see influencing a vampire to mean that you totally > > control them 100%. You are investing in what they are willing to do > > for you. Vampires all have their own plans and machinations. If I was > > a vampire, I may be influenced to assist some old Methuselah, but I'd > > be damned if I would turn over my entire resource network to them. > > Perhaps I want to keep my Hell Hounds and use them to protect my own > > interest (outside of game). But if the Methuselah sweetens the pot > > (say 2 more Pool) well, I could probably be convinced to bring in one > > of my Hell Hounds to assist in their endeavours (recruit Hell Hound). > > Of course, but if you recruit them to do something you don't have to > give them everything, do you? I mean, you give them an order like > "protect this building". He has weapons and Hell Hounds and he knows > it could get dangerous you think they bring them or he say "nah, if he > didn't give me weapons or Hounds or blood, then I'm going unarmed, > alone, and thirsty" Part of their resources is used for their own > protection. No, don't have to give them anything, and often you don't, especially the low capacity vampires who are more your cannon fodder than trusted minion. Perhaps they have no weapons, and my own resources for such are tied up (not drawing a weapon card), and their own minions are needed elsewhere. Perhaps rather than a 'guard this building' order, it's more a 'the Sabbat are rolling in to burn down the radio station, drop everything and get out there now'. Plus, nothing says that the Methuselah's influence is so overt. Many vampires are manipulated into doing things without realizing just why, or under false impressions. They may not realize what they're up against until they actual face it, and by then it's too late. > > There's a line where control over assets is either the Methuselah or > > the Vampire. Now I may invest in a sweet new top-of-the-line laptop > > for my lackey, but I'm not going to sit there and tell them how to go > > about hacking and destroying the finanacial records of my opponent > > (Bleed), that's up to the lackey. It's up to them to use their own > > knowledge and sources to get the job done. > > But it's difficult to separate methuselah's resources from minions' > because all actions are decided by you, and it's difficult to separate > them because even what costs you pool could be to pay to your minion > as you say. Well, you can think of it that way, yes. For myself, I don't consider the Methuselah to be all that 'active' in the actual game. More like playing some complex form of chess, maneuvering pieces about, often without the pawns realizing it. Setting plans in motions, but letting the minions go about it their way. I once wrote a few rounds of play of a game into a story, and one part was a group of Setites, with a Temptation on an Ahrimane, Juanita I believe. I wrote it as a slow temptation/seduction of Juanita, manipulating events so that she would no longer trust her Sabbat sisters, and eventually 'work' for the Setites. These actions I don't consider my own, but just those of the minions I've influenced, going about their own activities, but which fall neatly into my own plans. I wasn't there telling each Setite what to do directly, in my own thematics, it was more a nudge in the direction of the Ahrimanes as a starting point for the Setites to spread their own corrupting influences. > > Imbued are affected by numerous events. It's just that there are a > > number of them that specifically only affect vampires. > > No, they're only affected by Break the Code, there's nothing else that > "affects" allies (and imbued) especifically, could be an effect that's > usable by everyone but not that "affects" allies, (maybe the player, > like no replace when discard, but no the allies) at least not that > affects them in a bad way. Are a fair number of events that helps > allies, and a fairly big number of events that only affects (in a bad > way) vampires. Fair enough. I was considering the Imbued player as well as the Imbued themselves. But then again, how much should there be? Break the Code is effectively a 'clan hoser' type card, as it only affects the Imbued. If there are no Imbued in play, it's practically a dead card (you could still play it, at least, even if it won't affect anyone). I don't think there's a point to making any more 'hurt the Imbued' type events, and would prefer more generic ones that will affect the table, rather than specific deck types, or perhaps one that is more generic against allies. > > Aggravated Damage affects Imbued just fine, it's just that they are > > not any more particularly vulnerable to it. In fact, you could say > > they suffer more. 1 aggravated damage just sends a vampire to Torpor, > > it causes the loss of 1 life for an Imbued. > > Yeah, but it's not the same. Do you fear aggravated dmg. in the same > way, using allies, that when you're using vampires? It's not the same > losing 1 life than a trip to torpor, also it's not the same a trip > torpor than a trip to a hospital. Regular allies: No, not really, at least not any more than regular damage, but that's because for allies it is treated just like regular damage. And I feared that because if it didn't burn my minion outright, it made them more vulnerable to the next hit. For Imbued, no, there's little fear of any damage, really. Which I think is sort of the point of these recent threads on the Imbued. But then there's also a lot less fear of 'pillowfacing' Imbued, certainly much less than Diablerizing a vampire. > > As to what vampires have to defend against, well, they had to defend > > against all that before. Memories has been around for a while, and was > > a staple in ally decks before the Imbued came about. Aggravated damage > > is always a worry, and clans like Gangrel and Tzimisce were far more > > effective in dishing it out. Events were a problem before Imbued as > > well. And vampires have their own daytime tricks already, not that > > these is much that can be done to 'defend' against it. There's no > > 'make something unblockable blockable' card beyond those that cancel > > cards (i.e. Direct Intervention). > > I don't think you're saying that MoM is the same threat now, as it was > when the imbued didn't exist in the game, but if you are, I disagree. I think the threat is much the same. It's just with the Imbued, there are more ally deck options than before, so it's more prevalent now than before. But it was certainly a staple in a couple of Shambling Hordes decks. Zombies coming in a crunching you for 4 damage each is nothing to take lightly. > Also, I don't think that you're saying that any other allies-deck were > as commonly seen or as complete as imbued, but if you are, I also > disagree. No, of course not. Imbued brought with it 20 more allies, which were more cost-effective, and didn't have as strict requirements to be brought into play, as well as making it easier to bring them into play in general. Before you needed a vampire and an action. I'm sure if they were made as regular allies, they would see a lot of play as well, much like other 'star' allies are already. Carlton, Ossian and Mylan, to name a few. > Events were a problem but they're more of a problem now when they > don't affect his minions but they affect yours. And daytime tricks are > almost in just one discipline and at a great cost for them. If you're playing with daytime tricks, then you've likely planned on a way to deal with it. But yes, it does require some expediture of either time (actions) or resouces (cards and/or blood). Likewise, a similar daytime trick for allies should have some cost associated with it. For game mechanics, this is easily done. But to encompass thematics makes it more difficult. There are costs involved for vampires because it takes planning and fortitude to go through with it (yes, pun more than partially intended). For allies, sunlight doesn't mean anything, so costs are harder to justify thematically. > Vampires had to defend against all the other things, but there are new > threats. Imbued are allies that can play bleed modifiers, stealth > modifiers, that have powers and deserve to be treated especially, not > like if they were like any other ally, IMHO. Before them, I wouldn't > think that we were saying that a card it's valuable because it reduces > bleed against allies like now we say about, let's say, Nest of Eagles. > I'd say well I'd use other card because it's very unlikely to > encounter an ally that bleeds me, reliably, with good delivery > mechanism. I better block and kill. > > It forces you to include something against allies, something that > didn't happen before.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, allies never lacked for bleed modifiers (Laptops and Computer Hacking have been around since the beginning). Stealth, a little less so, though Cloak the Gathering is also an orginal card. It's the fact that most non-Imbued allies are expensive and fragile, that it's often not worth the risk investing in them beyond their base abilities. Imbued can afford to load up on equipment on cards, because there is little fear of losing them. As to needing extra defences against them, I don't agree. You're more likely to be bled at +bleed and +stealth by a vampire than you are an Imbued, so if you're not already prepared for that contigency, it's certainly not the fault of the Imbued player or Imbued mechanics. There's little Imbued can do that could not already be replicated by vampire decks. Vampire decks could be tuned to bleed at stealth, to intercept, to act multiple times, to rush, to hit with aggravated damage, etc. It's odd, as the Imbued are at the same time far more resilient and far more fragile than vampires. Most combat will just send them to the Incapacitated region, with little fear of losing the minion. And yet, one undodged Mercy of Seth means a fully loaded up Imbued goes poof. Similarly burning a vampire takes a lot more setup than this. I do agree that something should be done, as the typically combative disciplines have a mystifying inability to deal with allies, while typically non-combative disciplines have aces up their sleeves to easily deal with them. Either through development of the base rules (i.e. burning conviction for excess damage), or producing cards effective against allies for these combat disciplines. Perhaps something like a Potence strike Break the Neck, sending an opposing vampire to torpor, or burning an ally. Chris, Thrall of Arika