hey --
i'm one of the players who made your game successful... i have spent
somewhere between five and ten thousand dollars on your game in the
two years i've been playing... i'm one of the reasons that sabbat war
sold out on its first printing... i'm one of the reasons that your
playtesting has yielded the kind of results it has... i'm one of the
reasons you make a living [ww, not lsj]...
so thanks for sliding it up my ass on this set... you suck...
a lot of us came to you, fed up with wotc's bullshit... thanks for
repaying us by becoming the new and improved wotc... at least wotc
was honest and up front about it...
you should be ashamed of yourselves... the may rulings, the new
layout, and ~the other thing~ -- as a matter of fact, you cowards, why
don't you go ahead and tell them what that "3" on the crypt card
means...?
you should already be ashamed of yourselves for it being there at
all... and more ashamed for not mentioning a thing about it in the
initial press releases about the set... and completely and utterly
ashamed of yourselves for allowing this much time to pass before
telling the loyal players who have made your game successful how
you're fucking them over...
i'll tell you, i'm ashamed of myself: for thinking that you'd never
pull some kind of crap like this...
on the upside, i won't be in the position to let you put it to me
again, and you won't have to read my posts much longer...
v:tes collection for sale -- pretty impressive, too, and i'd like to
get rid of it before the company totally devalues it...
even i am surprised at the depth of the contempt i find myself holding
you in... you've set a new low standard for an industry where we all
thought wotc had sunk as low as a company could get...
hah -- and i didn't even violate the nda...!
-- khs
In message <67327703.02070...@posting.google.com>,
kevins...@airbridge.net (kevin scribner) mumbled something about:
>hah -- and i didn't even violate the nda...!
(actually, you did by even mentioning it.)
--
"There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2ji1iu078g5unlk1t...@4ax.com...
> In message <67327703.02070...@posting.google.com>,
> kevins...@airbridge.net (kevin scribner) mumbled something about:
>
> >hah -- and i didn't even violate the nda...!
>
> (actually, you did by even mentioning it.)
how did you know that nda is the non disclosure agreement ? =)
you're involved too, derek !! =D
In message <3d20caec$0$2091$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>,
"reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> mumbled something about:
[ quoted text not captured ]
Having signed a ridiculous quantity of NDAs in this life, for a
multitude of companies OTHER than White Wolf (including the one I
currently work for), I should think I OUGHT to know what the acronym
stands for by now =)
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <3d20cc32$0$12045$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net>,
"reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> mumbled something about:
>"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message>news:9pi1iushkpg4fko40...@4ax.com...>>
>> Having signed a ridiculous quantity of NDAs in this life, for a
>> multitude of companies OTHER than White Wolf (including the one I
>> currently work for), I should think I OUGHT to know what the acronym
>> stands for by now =)>
>mmmm
>okay, you're clean ;)
Of course I am! I shower daily, and with a friend when possible.
[ quoted text not captured ]
i'm one of the reasons that your
> playtesting has yielded the kind of results it has...
>> hah -- and i didn't even violate the nda...!
>
> -- khs
looks like a "no no" too...
how much? for the collection i mean? mail me(or see my post on the ww forum).
> so thanks for sliding it up my ass on this set... you suck...
? What exactly has WW done to slight you in this set?
> you should be ashamed of yourselves... the may rulings, the new
> layout, and ~the other thing~ -- as a matter of fact, you cowards, why
> don't you go ahead and tell them what that "3" on the crypt card
> means...?
The May rulings were not as noteworthy as people make them out to be.
Rotschreck/Psyche has come up once in games I've witnessed, ally with
Burst of Sunlight, never. Not since I did it 4 years ago with Talaq,
anyway.
I did NOT want a new layout, but you must admit, it looks OK. Better
than, say, L5R's "new look", or the proposed M:TG layout (which was
never carried out).
You sound like you know what this 3 means. You must, since the May
rulings and the new layout wouldn't warrant this "$5000 rage" by
themselves.
> you should already be ashamed of yourselves for it being there at
> all... and more ashamed for not mentioning a thing about it in the
> initial press releases about the set... and completely and utterly
> ashamed of yourselves for allowing this much time to pass before
> telling the loyal players who have made your game successful how
> you're fucking them over...
"3" must mean something like "Win the game in 3 turns", or "All
Malkavians get +3 bleed".
Cause if it doesn't, it's not as bad as you're making it out to be. I
can't imagine a new game mechanic that would make me quit playing.
> v:tes collection for sale -- pretty impressive, too, and i'd like to
> get rid of it before the company totally devalues it...
If you still feel this way in a month, contact me. You seem to be too
emotional right now to make such a large decision.
--Brian
kevins...@airbridge.net (kevin scribner) wrote in message news:<67327703.02070...@posting.google.com>...
> hey --
>
> i'm one of the players who made your game successful... i have spent
> somewhere between five and ten thousand dollars on your game in the
> two years i've been playing... i'm one of the reasons that sabbat war
> sold out on its first printing... i'm one of the reasons that your
> playtesting has yielded the kind of results it has... i'm one of the
> reasons you make a living [ww, not lsj]...
>
> so thanks for sliding it up my ass on this set... you suck...
>
[snip worthless diatribe]
Is the phrase "spit the dummy" native to Australia? mmm...what about "hissy fit"?
Chris.
On Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:33:11 GMT, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> said:
Derek> In message <67327703.02070...@posting.google.com>,
Derek> kevins...@airbridge.net (kevin scribner) mumbled something about:
>> hah -- and i didn't even violate the nda...!
Derek> (actually, you did by even mentioning it.)
While I have no idea what the text on the playtest NDA is like for
this set, the NDAs I've signed during my life (in the business world)
have not had any clause that forbids saying that you are under
NDA. This NDA mat be more paranoid than the norm, of course.
//Petri
> You sound like you know what this 3 means. You must, since the May
> rulings and the new layout wouldn't warrant this "$5000 rage" by
> themselves.
>
> > you should already be ashamed of yourselves for it being there at
> > all... and more ashamed for not mentioning a thing about it in the
> > initial press releases about the set... and completely and utterly
> > ashamed of yourselves for allowing this much time to pass before
> > telling the loyal players who have made your game successful how
> > you're fucking them over...
>
> "3" must mean something like "Win the game in 3 turns", or "All
> Malkavians get +3 bleed".
To get so upset, it is probably a set tiering gauge. Set 1 = Jyhad /
Vtes, Set 2 = Sabbat era cards, Set 3 = Camerilla. Or something.
DH
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7qt1ius8268ul1okn...@4ax.com...
> In message <3d20cc32$0$12045$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net>,
> "reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> mumbled something about:
>
> >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:9pi1iushkpg4fko40...@4ax.com...
> >>
> >> Having signed a ridiculous quantity of NDAs in this life, for a
> >> multitude of companies OTHER than White Wolf (including the one I
> >> currently work for), I should think I OUGHT to know what the acronym
> >> stands for by now =)
> >
> >mmmm
> >okay, you're clean ;)
>
> Of course I am! I shower daily, and with a friend when possible.
oh my ! i thought you were straight ! =)
"hamdamcwa" <dave...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9e10847c.02070...@posting.google.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Dave is close to win the chocolate bunny =)
chr...@comcen.com.au (Chris Arthur) wrote in message news:<5a63bace.02070...@posting.google.com>...
> [snip worthless diatribe]
>
> Is the phrase "spit the dummy" native to Australia? mmm...what about "hissy fit"?
>
when it all comes out in the wash, you can email to apologize to me
privately, rather than make a further ass of yourself in the forum...
just the kind of guy i am...
-- khs
In message <3d217684$0$29103$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>,
"reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> mumbled something about:
>> >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >news:9pi1iushkpg4fko40...@4ax.com...
>> >>
>> >> Having signed a ridiculous quantity of NDAs in this life, for a
>> >> multitude of companies OTHER than White Wolf (including the one I
>> >> currently work for), I should think I OUGHT to know what the acronym
>> >> stands for by now =)
>> >
>> >mmmm
>> >okay, you're clean ;)
>>
>> Of course I am! I shower daily, and with a friend when possible.>
>oh my ! i thought you were straight ! =)
Yer mom says "hi", by the way, and "send more soap". ;)
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:u7e3iu4mlrkrdmkmp...@4ax.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I'm assuming you mean "soap on a rope". You know, so she can show you her
"Stupid Penis Tricks".
That's right, HERS.
To bring this post back on topic: Werewolf Pack still sucks.
Like yer mom
-Mike
kevins...@airbridge.net (kevin scribner) wrote:
> i'm one of the players who made your game successful... i have spent
> somewhere between five and ten thousand dollars on your game in the
> two years i've been playing...
<rant snipped>
*sigh* Kids today, I tell you. Two years and they think they've seen
everything.
First off, before Kevin tries to patronize me like the others he's
responded to, let me state that I am fully aware of "~the other
thing~" and have been for months. Fortunately, I'm not a playtester
and thus not bound by any NDA, so I can freely discuss the Jyhad &
VTES/Camarilla crypt restriction without concern of reprisal.
Second, if he goes off the deep end on something that was this
inevitable, just imagine his hysterics if he was around for the
retirement of the Jyhad backs or the 7/7 rulings. Of course, back then
he'd have fit right in.
If you don't want to play the game any more because of righteous
indignation, fine. Quit. You are even entitled to one short rant, if
you like. Several pages of melodrama, OTOH, become more tiresome than
a pro-wrestling promo. You are also not entitled to belittle others
for their ignorance.
In short, grow up. It's just a game.
Noal McDonald
VEKN Prince of Metro Detroit
kevins...@airbridge.net (kevin scribner) wrote in message news:<67327703.02070...@posting.google.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
sure. if it turns out to be as bad as you're saying (ie players
quitting in droves) then i'll apologize. Otherwise, it won't be me
that's made an ass of themselves...
Ya, based on what I've read and my knowledge on CCG's it's not hard to
figure out "The Thing that Ate New York" or as some like to call it
"3"! Ever heard of the term BFD! Well thats how I feel! I've played
VTES since nearly the day it arrived on the shelf as "Jyhad". For
those who have only played this game a short time, YOU HAVE NO IDEA
what alot of us players have gone through to make sure this game
carried on. I'm DAMN proud of the community of players that I've come
to know and play against, who have fought so hard to see this game
through the dark times.
I feel that this game is at the BEST place it's ever been at in the
entire history of Jyhad/VTES. RIGHT NOW, TODAY! This is due to ppl
like LSJ, WW, playtesters like yourself, the regular, and even the
casual players. Alot of time, money, dedication, and a willingness to
get an ass chewing now and then from the playing (or playtesting)
community make up our leadership of this gameing hierarchy. I don't
know how LSJ does it, but I for one am damn glad he does. In the
"Dark" times when the VKEN was new and still forming, I would rage,
piss, moan and complain. Then I realized that without strong
leadership and the support of the community the game as we know it
would fall the way of the likes of Net Runner, Rage, and countless
other CCG's like them.
I've always told ppl, you really have to WANT to play VTES in order
to undergo the task of learning the game and all the associated cards
that comprise this game, not to mention the many changes that this
game goes through! But in the end I still love this game, and want to
be a member of it's community. So I stand by the leadership that has
brought it this far. Do I believe they are infallable and can't make a
mistake? Of course not! But will I give them the benefit of the doubt?
HELL YES!!!! And by doing so I will give the community the benefit of
the doubt also. It's a shame that a dedicated player like yourself
will not.
Worse still, you have taken the position that was given to you, and
used it against the very leadership you were asked to help. This
tyraid of yours, though you most definately have a right to your
opinion, belongs on the private E-mail to the leadership of the play
testing board and not on the open forum as you have done here! For
godsakes AT LEAST have the decency to wait for the set to be released.
Many may not feel the same as you and may want to make their OWN
decisions. But now they only have your jaded opinion w/ no information
or reasoning upon which to base it. You have only left ppl confused
about a subject that you had no right discussing on an open forum.
It just seems a "so called" player of your calliber would respect the
community you play(ed) for a little more. Maybe you SHOULD sell your
cards, I'd like to start the bidding at $5.00.
BTW everyone... This thing he is crying about, ppl WILL yell, kick,
scream and cuss but it's REALLY NO big deal. When LSJ makes a
controversial ruling ppl DO yell, kick, scream and cuss, but when the
dust settles we all just do our transfers and then discard. This
situation will be NO different! Just wait for the dust to settle and
make sure ya got 7 cards in your hand.
My $.02
Michael Courtois
-Long time VTES community member-
Mike Courtois wrote:
> BTW everyone... This thing he is crying about, ppl WILL yell, kick,
> scream and cuss but it's REALLY NO big deal.
ROTFLMAO.
RIP Jyhad: 1994 - 2002
On 2 Jul 2002 15:45:17 -0700, dhar...@my-deja.com (Noal McDonald)
wrote:
>In short, grow up. It's just a game.
A popular refrain. However as we are grown up for the most part, we
have in fact spent thousands of dollars on this hobby and have been
active in it for years, perhaps even over a decade for many.
Its no surprise that many would feel emotionally backstabbed by such a
drastic and unwanted change in the game look.
T
"Shaun McIsaac" <mpm...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3D21D2F8...@attbi.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Shouldn't that be:
RIP Jyhad: 1994-1996, 2000-2002?
:P
Xian
Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote:
> Its no surprise that many would feel emotionally backstabbed by such a
> drastic and unwanted change in the game look.
I have great faith that it isn't the change in the card look that people are
so concerened with.
Peter D Bakija
PD...@bigplanet.com
http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6
"I am the autumn in the scarlet
I am the make-up on your eyes"
-Kim Deal
Noal McDonald wrote:
> Fortunately, I'm not a playtester
> and thus not bound by any NDA, so I can freely discuss the Jyhad &
> VTES/Camarilla crypt restriction without concern of reprisal.
Please do. I know I'm still in the dark.
Or, you could just tell me in person in a few hours :-)
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Wed, 03 Jul 2002 14:11:41 +0200, Xian wrote:
> Shouldn't that be:
>
> RIP Jyhad: 1994-1996, 2000-2002?
>
> :P
>
> Xian
Oh, man ! You've just made me realize how resurecting made a mess of
gravestone inscriptions.
Maybe I won't get into the hassle of resurecting, after all. I'd hate the
new layout of my gravestone. ;)
Francois,
Sarcasm or Irony ? YOU be the judge !
"Shaun McIsaac" <mpm...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3D21D2F8...@attbi.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Predicted kicking and screaming noted. :-)
You do realize that Type 1/Type 2 didn't even kill Magic, right?
And the worst this is likely to be is not nearly as big a change
as that?
Josh
sanguine
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:u7e3iu4mlrkrdmkmp...@4ax.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Soap! So that's what you call it... I always get it in those black bottles
without lables :)
Patrick
In good company
[ quoted text not captured ]
I was a strong supporter of Type2, actually.
However, there is a huge difference between the Type1/2 split in magic
and whatever 3 means.
Type 1 had to happen to allow new players to compete with old players at
a less than insane cost. Buying a new Type 2 deck, even in the worst of
times, is only a few hundred.. 300 tops. Buying:
Black Lotus ($150)
Mox Pearl ($100), Sapphire($100), Jet($100), Ruby($100), Emerald($100),
and Diamond ($10)
Time Walk($100), Timetwister($100), Ancestral Recall($100)
and 51 other, support cards costing on average 5 bucks each, easily puts
the deck into the $1000 dollar range. In addition, there were only a
relatively small number of Black Loti and original 5 moxen printed.
That number was much smaller than the number of players, and therefore
even without money issues there would be many people who simply would
not be able to play.
No such restriction exists for Jyhad/Vtes cards. They are getting
*somewhat* hard to find, but getting a box of either is still very
possible. It is easier than getting original Sabbat, and I don't see
those cards being banned (or whatever the exact mechanic ends up being).
Type2 didn't kill magic, but it also had a *much* stronger following
then than Vtes does now. People *did* leave the game over it, but there
were enough left over. I'm not sure the same will be true here,
especially if the rumors regarding changed card text are true.
Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote:
> (Noal McDonald) wrote:
> >In short, grow up. It's just a game.
>
> A popular refrain. However as we are grown up for the most part, we
> have in fact spent thousands of dollars on this hobby and have been
> active in it for years, perhaps even over a decade for many.
1) Jyhad was originally released in 1994. Absolutely nobody has been
playing it for over a decade.
2) Money spent on VTES is not an investment. An investment is
something you intend to get a financial reward from. The money you
spend on VTES would have been blown on something inconsequential
anyway. Derek said it best last year, "I can point out (as I did
before) that V:TES is a luxury item. If V:TES
comes before rent, food, bills, your car, your girlfriend, or anything
else, then you have major priority issues and need to either
re-examine
them or dump her."
3) Kevin, by his own admission, has only been playing for a couple of
years. He was not around for the retirement of the Jyhad backs or the
7/7 rulings. When it comes to earth shattering events in VTES, he's a
rookie. Do you see any of us old veterans carrying on?
> Its no surprise that many would feel emotionally backstabbed by such a
> drastic and unwanted change in the game look.
You haven't been following the bouncing ball. Reread his rants and my
posts concerning the crypt restrictions. The physical change to the
cards has nothing to do with why he's so pissed off.
Regards,
[ quoted text not captured ]
On 3 Jul 2002 11:18:35 -0700, dhar...@my-deja.com (Noal McDonald)
wrote:
>>1) Jyhad was originally released in 1994. Absolutely nobody has been
>playing it for over a decade.
>
True, I always forget whether it was Origins 94 or 92 when I got into
this game.
>2) Money spent on VTES is not an investment.
You are ignoring the emotional investment of a hobby. And what most
of us have to go through to earn that kind of money to support it.
>
>3) Kevin, by his own admission, has only been playing for a couple of
>years. He was not around for the retirement of the Jyhad backs or the
>7/7 rulings. When it comes to earth shattering events in VTES, he's a
>rookie. Do you see any of us old veterans carrying on?
>
There are no taglines that tell me who has played for so long, and I
was speaking not only of Kevin but other discouraged veterans like
myself.
>> Its no surprise that many would feel emotionally backstabbed by such a
>> drastic and unwanted change in the game look.>
>You haven't been following the bouncing ball. Reread his rants and my
>posts concerning the crypt restrictions. The physical change to the
>cards has nothing to do with why he's so pissed off.
>
Again, I was not speaking only of Kevins rant. I know nothing about
the mysterious little '3' yet so will reserve my comments on that
until I see what it is.
T
Mike Courtois wrote
[ quoted text not captured ]
This is the best response to all the hysteria that's going on that
I've seen so far. Well done.
Thanks for throwing a little water on the fire. Maybe this will help
people calm down a bit and wait to hear more information before
over-reacting.
BTW - Do you think he will be asked to play-test the game in the
future? (assuming that is where he got his "inside information")
...I doubt it.
Cheers,
Howard
PS White Wolf has successfully created quite a "buzz" on this news
group, eh? If it spreads into the gaming community at large, then
that is an excellent marketing tactic (according to most business
models).
"There's no such thing as bad press" ...does that apply here? ;o)
Jedi...@rebelscum.net (Mike Courtois) wrote in message news:<33647383.02070...@posting.google.com>...
> Ya, based on what I've read and my knowledge on CCG's it's not hard to
> figure out "The Thing that Ate New York" or as some like to call it
> "3"! Ever heard of the term BFD! Well thats how I feel! I've played
> VTES since nearly the day it arrived on the shelf as "Jyhad". For
> those who have only played this game a short time, YOU HAVE NO IDEA
> what alot of us players have gone through to make sure this game
> carried on. I'm DAMN proud of the community of players that I've come
> to know and play against, who have fought so hard to see this game
> through the dark times.
never heard of you...
> I feel that this game is at the BEST place it's ever been at in the
> entire history of Jyhad/VTES. RIGHT NOW, TODAY! This is due to ppl
> like LSJ, WW, playtesters like yourself, the regular, and even the
> casual players. Alot of time, money, dedication, and a willingness to
> get an ass chewing now and then from the playing (or playtesting)
> community make up our leadership of this gameing hierarchy. I don't
> know how LSJ does it, but I for one am damn glad he does. In the
> "Dark" times when the VKEN was new and still forming, I would rage,
> piss, moan and complain. Then I realized that without strong
> leadership and the support of the community the game as we know it
> would fall the way of the likes of Net Runner, Rage, and countless
> other CCG's like them.
if you want to blow him, just ask him, for christ's sake...
> I've always told ppl, you really have to WANT to play VTES in order
> to undergo the task of learning the game and all the associated cards
> that comprise this game, not to mention the many changes that this
> game goes through! But in the end I still love this game, and want to
> be a member of it's community. So I stand by the leadership that has
> brought it this far. Do I believe they are infallable and can't make a
> mistake? Of course not! But will I give them the benefit of the doubt?
> HELL YES!!!! And by doing so I will give the community the benefit of
> the doubt also. It's a shame that a dedicated player like yourself
> will not.
the benefit of the doubt you're giving them is called, "assuming the
position..." you want to do that, that's fine... but a lot of
players have no idea what's hurtling towards them... i think they
ought to know... i have not violated the nda, though i think i
should... but i've let them know that there is something they need to
know... you can't give them the benefit of the doubt when you KNOW
they're up to no good...
> Worse still, you have taken the position that was given to you, and
> used it against the very leadership you were asked to help. This
> tyraid of yours, though you most definately have a right to your
> opinion, belongs on the private E-mail to the leadership of the play
> testing board and not on the open forum as you have done here! For
> godsakes AT LEAST have the decency to wait for the set to be released.
> Many may not feel the same as you and may want to make their OWN
> decisions. But now they only have your jaded opinion w/ no information
> or reasoning upon which to base it. You have only left ppl confused
> about a subject that you had no right discussing on an open forum.
blind faith in your leaders is assinine... your leadership is pulling
some pretty dirty shit and you're sucking it up like it's ice cream...
i decide where what i say belongs, not you nor anyone else...
got a copy of the nda handy...? if white wolf wants, they can seek
injunctive remedies against me...
but they won't... they're treading pretty close to some actionable
stuff themselves, i think...
waiting for the set to be released is the needle and the damage
done... a lot of players buy their stuff in advance... they think
they're ordering v:tes... they're actually ordering something far
different... and ww / lsj don't want them to know it in advance...
v:tg is more like it... i think that's just as low as anything wotc
ever did [and they pulled some SHIT]... only this isn't wotc, and
it's the first step down an ugly road... so i acted in accordance
with my conscience, and did so though it costs me my favorite
recreational activity that doesn't involve my genitals...
> It just seems a "so called" player of your calliber would respect the
> community you play(ed) for a little more. Maybe you SHOULD sell your
> cards, I'd like to start the bidding at $5.00.
yeah, yeah -- whatever...
> BTW everyone... This thing he is crying about, ppl WILL yell, kick,
> scream and cuss but it's REALLY NO big deal. When LSJ makes a
> controversial ruling ppl DO yell, kick, scream and cuss, but when the
> dust settles we all just do our transfers and then discard. This
> situation will be NO different! Just wait for the dust to settle and
> make sure ya got 7 cards in your hand.
>
> My $.02
you are, of course, quite mistaken... assuming that those who know
you don't already consider you an ass, they certainly will after the
secrecy has dropped and they realize what a big deal it really is...
the funny thing is: "make sure ya got 7 cards in your hand..." once
it's out in the wash, think about it -- the irony is delicious...
-- khs
"Shaun McIsaac" <mpm...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3D227FAF...@attbi.com...
> I was a strong supporter of Type2, actually.
> However, there is a huge difference between the Type1/2 split in magic
> and whatever 3 means.
Yeah, Group 1/2/3 vampires is a lot less drastic. :-)
[snip type 1 justification]
> No such restriction exists for Jyhad/Vtes cards. They are getting
> *somewhat* hard to find, but getting a box of either is still very
> possible. It is easier than getting original Sabbat, and I don't see
> those cards being banned (or whatever the exact mechanic ends up being).
At some point they will no longer be findable any more than original
Sabbat is, if the game keeps on living. Given that new players would
have a hard time getting the original-set vampires, it seems very
reasonable to me that they should be able to play with "old school"
players on an even footing just by buying the new cards. That also
makes good business sense for White Wolf; they don't want new players
to have to "waste" their CCG dollars on out-of-print stuff instead
of their own new product.
> Type2 didn't kill magic, but it also had a *much* stronger following
> then than Vtes does now. People *did* leave the game over it, but there
> were enough left over. I'm not sure the same will be true here,
> especially if the rumors regarding changed card text are true.
It's not just that there were enough left over - it's also that Magic
*kept getting more*. That's certainly what White Wolf wants to do
too, is keep getting more. If they feel that to do that they need to
make the game seem more easily accessible to new players, this looks
like a sensible course of action to me. And it won't alienate any of
their existing players who can get over their initial frustration
(as I think Matt Hirsch wrote) at not being able to make uber-crypts
out of new Justicars and Princes plus old Justicars and Princes.
In my opinion, anyway.
Josh
ok with unter-crypts
Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote:
>>2) Money spent on VTES is not an investment.>
> You are ignoring the emotional investment of a hobby.
Emotional investment?!? *checks crotch* Yep. I'm a guy.
I'm sorry if you caught that "sensitive man of the 90's" bug. I
certainly didn't. The only "emotional investment" I have is in spending
time in a social setting with friends. I can have just as much fun with
them playing Settlers of Catan. Pardon me if I don't see how modifying
the rules, especially when it makes sense, will make me enjoy the
company of my fellow competitors any less.
> of us have to go through to earn that kind of money to support it.
All hobbies, except perhaps rock collecting, requires a substantial of
investment of money. If you can't afford VTES as a hobby, find something
else to do with your friends.
> There are no taglines that tell me who has played for so long, and I
> was speaking not only of Kevin but other discouraged veterans like
> myself.
You hadn't made that clear in your post. However, I haven't seen you
break into hysterics yet, so...
> Again, I was not speaking only of Kevins rant.
The post of mine to which you responded was. Please stay on topic.
> I know nothing about the mysterious little '3' yet so will reserve> my comments on that until I see what it is.
Read the White Wolf VEKN site. They finally revealed all...which, as it
turns out, was exactly as I predicted in April and was the subject of
the post to which you responded. If you don't have comments on the topic
of the post to which you respond, kindly don't comment at all.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"kevin scribner" <kevins...@airbridge.net> wrote in message
news:67327703.02070...@posting.google.com...
> Jedi...@rebelscum.net (Mike Courtois) wrote in message
news:<33647383.02070...@posting.google.com>...
[clip]
> never heard of you...
Mike's been playing, judging, hosting, and promiting the game since the
beginning. He might actually have the largest collection of cards I've ever
seen. (Btw, he has over 125 Fifth Tradition and isn't upset about the
change--if that is being changed). He also took on the monumental task of
organizing the entire Week of Nightmares. He came in second at the GenCon N.A.
Championships 2 years ago.
Now you've heard of him.
> waiting for the set to be released is the needle and the damage
> done... a lot of players buy their stuff in advance... they think
> they're ordering v:tes... they're actually ordering something far
> different...>and ww / lsj don't want them to know it in advance...
Really? Did they call and reveal their secret plan to you? I fail to see how
this is some sort of conspiracy. If you have evidence of such, send me an email
and I'll fly to Atlanta to pummel Steve personally. (Actually, I'll just pound
on him in Milwaukee next month) :)
> v:tg is more like it... i think that's just as low as anything wotc
> ever did [and they pulled some SHIT]...
Boy, you *really* haven't been around that long. :)
> you are, of course, quite mistaken... assuming that those who know
> you don't already consider you an ass, they certainly will after the
> secrecy has dropped and they realize what a big deal it really is...
There isn't any secrecy that I can detect. Unless you are referring to the fact
that the first preview wasn't the new rule and that you forced them to release a
planned preview 2 days early, I'm not seeing it. Just because you happen to
know about a story coming-out in tomorrow's paper (or the paper 3 days from now)
hardly means that the paper is being "secretive".
Already it must be clear that opinions differ wildly on the groupings, the
reprinted cards, and the new look. Let's just see what the consensus is on all
this and go from there.
-Robert
rob...@vtesinla.org
Joshua Duffin wrote:
> "Shaun McIsaac" <mpm...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:3D227FAF...@attbi.com...>>I was a strong supporter of Type2, actually.
>>However, there is a huge difference between the Type1/2 split in magic
>>and whatever 3 means.> Yeah, Group 1/2/3 vampires is a lot less drastic. :-)
> [snip type 1 justification]>>No such restriction exists for Jyhad/Vtes cards. They are getting
>>*somewhat* hard to find, but getting a box of either is still very
>>possible. It is easier than getting original Sabbat, and I don't see
>>those cards being banned (or whatever the exact mechanic ends up being).> At some point they will no longer be findable any more than original
> Sabbat is, if the game keeps on living. Given that new players would
> have a hard time getting the original-set vampires, it seems very
> reasonable to me that they should be able to play with "old school"
> players on an even footing just by buying the new cards.
The current solution doesn't help new players at all. If the old
vampires are more powerful, and new players can't get them, they're
still screwed. Old players would still dominate with their old cards
that aren't banned.
Reprint the useful vamps if it becomes difficult. Though to be sure, I
doubt that there will ever be a true shortage of vampires for new
players, since there were a *lot* of them printed. Existing players
should be able to trade vamps to newbie all day long. I've got boxes
and boxes myself, and I'm hardly as invested into this game as most ppl
here.
>>Type2 didn't kill magic, but it also had a *much* stronger following
>>then than Vtes does now. People *did* leave the game over it, but there
>>were enough left over. I'm not sure the same will be true here,
>>especially if the rumors regarding changed card text are true.> It's not just that there were enough left over - it's also that Magic
> *kept getting more*.
Hrm, not sure about that. I believe M:tG hit a peak around the early
days of Type2, though I don't have a great method of tracking # of
players. You could ask Dave Delaney (sp) for the years it was most
profitable, maybe? That's not the same as more ppl playing though, as
it could mean less ppl buying more.
> That's certainly what White Wolf wants to do
> too, is keep getting more. If they feel that to do that they need to
> make the game seem more easily accessible to new players, this looks
> like a sensible course of action to me. And it won't alienate any of
> their existing players who can get over their initial frustration
> (as I think Matt Hirsch wrote) at not being able to make uber-crypts
> out of new Justicars and Princes plus old Justicars and Princes.
The fact that existing decks will *never* get crypt help is not minor.
That's it... I can retire a whole slew of decks 'cause they simply will
not change minus the odd library card or two. I very much doubt the new
princes and justicars would make that big a deal even if allowed to mix.
If the erratas are true, you can have all the crappy overcosted
vampires you want, they'll still suck. Whats worse is that the errata
*actively destroys* existing decks while "three" just prevents you from
refining the crypts of those decks.
[ quoted text not captured ]
>
> Shaun McIsaac wrote
>
(snip)
> The fact that existing decks will *never* get crypt help is not minor.
> That's it... I can retire a whole slew of decks 'cause they simply will
> not change minus the odd library card or two. I very much doubt the new
> princes and justicars would make that big a deal even if allowed to mix.
> If the erratas are true, you can have all the crappy overcosted
> vampires you want, they'll still suck. Whats worse is that the errata
> *actively destroys* existing decks while "three" just prevents you from
> refining the crypts of those decks.
I'm not so sure about that. What's to stop White Wolf from printing a
few vampires that don't have that little "3"... they have made more
Setites, more Ravnos, more Sabbat vampires, etc. Couldn't they just
as easily print a handful of vampires specifically for the Jyhad &
VTES decks in future expansions? I expect to eventually see some
cards that effect the Bloodlines, Independants, Sabbat, and so on...
Why not the original Camarilla? As long as it's a new card that they
can sell and enough players are interested in buying it, then there is
still a market. It might be a way to appease the "old gaurd" a bit.
Maybe they were smart enough to include a few in this set (with the
number "1" on the vampires).
Who knows? Stranger things have certainly happened before...
Cheers,
Howard
> Jedi...@rebelscum.net (Mike Courtois) wrote :
<snip Jedi Mike's opening thesis>
> never heard of you...
Wow. I mean, Jedi Mike? Who's that? Jeez.
You look like more and more of a jackass, Kev.
Ante up some facts or stop running your mouth.
--heslin, laughed so hard he woke up the neighbors
Robert Goudie wrote:
> "kevin scribner" <kevins...@airbridge.net> wrote in message
> news:67327703.02070...@posting.google.com...>>Jedi...@rebelscum.net (Mike Courtois) wrote in message> news:<33647383.02070...@posting.google.com>...
> [clip]>>waiting for the set to be released is the needle and the damage
>>done... a lot of players buy their stuff in advance... they think
>>they're ordering v:tes... they're actually ordering something far
>>different...
>>and ww / lsj don't want them to know it in advance...> Really? Did they call and reveal their secret plan to you? I fail to see how
> this is some sort of conspiracy. If you have evidence of such, send me an email
> and I'll fly to Atlanta to pummel Steve personally. (Actually, I'll just pound
> on him in Milwaukee next month) :)
The crypt segregation business was brought up by Kevin before, during
the May rulings fiasco. LSJ's response: "I don't know what you're
talking ahout."
"Shaun McIsaac" <mpm...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3D23C1B6...@attbi.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
That doesn't point to a conspiracy. What if Kevin had brought it up 1 day after
receiving his playtest materials? Was LSJ still required to respond to
everything at that time or else its a conspiracy? They planned to reveal this
information (I saw physical proof of such) and then actually revealed this
information.
Let's get back to complaining about the things we don't like about the set
rather than complaining about conspiracies that don't exist.
-Robert
On Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:09:48 -0400, Noal McDonald
<dhar...@none-of-your-fscking-business.com> wrote:
>Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote:
>>>>2) Money spent on VTES is not an investment.>>
>> You are ignoring the emotional investment of a hobby.>
>
>Emotional investment?!? *checks crotch* Yep. I'm a guy.
Congratualations. You had to check did you? *lol*
If you do not understand the concept that's fine, I certainly am not
interested in educating you on it. But my statement stands, you are
ignoring it.
>>> of us have to go through to earn that kind of money to support it.>
>
>All hobbies, except perhaps rock collecting, requires a substantial of
>investment of money. If you can't afford VTES as a hobby, find something
>else to do with your friends.
>
Its not about affording it, its about spending that time and money on
it and then feeling like you've WASTED that time and money.
> If you don't have comments on the topic
>of the post to which you respond, kindly don't comment at all.
>
I'll comment as I see fit thanks. No need to be hostile.
T
<snip>
>
> the funny thing is: "make sure ya got 7 cards in your hand..." once
> it's out in the wash, think about it -- the irony is delicious...
hmmm, don't redraw cards during combat? During an action? During your
turn? During someone else's turn?
>
> -- khs
Shaun McIsaac wrote:
> The crypt segregation business was brought up by Kevin before, during
> the May rulings fiasco. LSJ's response: "I don't know what you're
> talking ahout."
Google has no record of me posting any message with both the words "know"
and "talking" in the same post since 12 April 2002.
If you're referring to
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CD43030.19663D6C%40white-wolf.com
then you
1) Need to learn how to quote
2) Misunderstood (or maliciously mistated) the statement "No idea what
you're *asking*" (emphasis added).
If you have an issue to take up with Kevin bringing up a topic covered
under an NDA on a public forum, probably the first place to start is
with Kevin, not with me.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
>
> kevin scribner wrote
>
> hey --
>
> i'm one of the players who made your game successful... i have spent
> somewhere between five and ten thousand dollars on your game
Kevin,
This opening statement has been bothering me and I want to ask you why
you spent so much money on this game? I'm seriously interested
because I simply don't understand it. A few hundred dollars could get
you an amazing number of cards... how could anyone spend $10,000 on
this game? What in the world did you buy? Is your set listed
anywhere? (web page, trading site, etc.)
And here is the other thing... it's just a card game, right? Why
would anyone spend that much money on this game? You might have been
able to buy an inexpensive car, get more of an education, or take some
amazing trips to exotic locations with that kind of money. I'm
confused. Do you know many people that pour money into games like
this? Is this a common occurance?
Can anyone out there explain this to me?
Cheers,
Howard
PS I have been following the threads the last few days and I am not
sure whether I should thank you or be disappointed with your actions.
On the one hand, you have helped bring these issues forth and I have
already become more adjusted to the changes by reading the various
posted messages (supportive and scathing). When people get hysterical
around me, I have a tendency to pull back, calm down, and try to find
the higher ground. So, all this hysteria has been somewhat useful for
me personally.
On the other hand, it seems like you've intentionally stirred up a lot
of people without getting all of your facts straight. You may have a
bit of inside information, but do you actually know all the
motivations behind White Wolf's actions? Do any of us? How can you
be sure that people would not have been pleased by the cards? Maybe
White Wolf was going to give out more information without your
input... and White Wolf's long-term plans might actually take
everything you are worried about into consideration... or maybe those
plans aren't even fully formed yet... either way, none of us can
predict the outcome of these changes. Some people will love the
changes, some people will hate them, and the vast majority will
probably adjust to it and move on.
You had the opportunity to put a positive spin on all of this, hold
your tongue, pose a bunch of questions, rant and rave, and a plethora
of various other options (personal letters, e-mails directly to White
Wolf, and so on...). Just remember that the actions we take effect
others, and sometimes those actions have a negative impact. It's a
good policy to avoid that whenever possible (IMHO).
The jury is still out on what you've done here, but I'm sure that you
will at least gain some insight and learn something from all of this.
If White Wolf takes action against you, then you'll probably learn
something about the legal system. If some of your friends actually do
abandon you, then you may lean something about personal relationships
(who your real friends are, trust issues, tough love, etc.). And if
it all washes over in due time and turns out to be no big deal in the
larger scheme of things (as I suspect), then you will probably realize
that such issues are not truly monumental and can be handled in other
ways that are more appropriate to the circumstances.
Personally, I'm going to keep looking for the high ground and try to
find the positive elements in everything that's happening. There are
a lot of good and potentially exciting new possibilities for the game
that aren't being mentioned... hopefully people will begin to see
that the doors are wide open and the future looks pretty damn bright.
Remember that this game was out of print until recently. And is just
a game after all...
in the
> two years i've been playing...
Not very long actually. (I'm fairly new too)
i'm one of the reasons that sabbat war
> sold out on its first printing... i'm one of the reasons that your
> playtesting has yielded the kind of results it has... i'm one of the
> reasons you make a living [ww, not lsj]...
One of the small reasons. The money you spent would not greatly
impact most mid-sized companies and it would barely be a "blip on the
screen" of a large corporation.
>
> so thanks for sliding it up my ass on this set... you suck...
Is it really that bad? Really?? Think about it...
> a lot of us came to you, fed up with wotc's bullshit... thanks for
> repaying us by becoming the new and improved wotc... at least wotc
> was honest and up front about it...
Are you sure about that? Was Wizards of the Coast always honest and
upfront? Is White Wolf being truly dishonest? How do you judge such
things? I certainly don't know enough about it to make such
statements. Have you worked for both of those companies? What's your
background?
> you should be ashamed of yourselves... the may rulings, the new
> layout, and ~the other thing~ -- as a matter of fact, you cowards, why
> don't you go ahead and tell them what that "3" on the crypt card
> means...?
Maybe they were planning on getting to that in their own due time...
and before the pre-orders. The certainly released the preview in
plenty of time.
> you should already be ashamed of yourselves for it being there at
> all...
Why? It seems like a good idea to me. Many other people actually
seem impressed. Do you have a better suggestion or other ideas?
Let's hear them...
and more ashamed for not mentioning a thing about it in the
> initial press releases about the set...
This kind of information comes a bit at a time on a planned schedule.
Nothing new there...
and completely and utterly
> ashamed of yourselves for allowing this much time to pass before
> telling the loyal players who have made your game successful how
> you're fucking them over...
That's a personal opinion. One you hold strongly, but still just an
opinion.
> i'll tell you, i'm ashamed of myself: for thinking that you'd never
> pull some kind of crap like this...
You use "ashamed" a lot. That word carries a lot of weight and
doesn't really apply to what's going on here.
> on the upside, i won't be in the position to let you put it to me
> again, and you won't have to read my posts much longer...
Why not? Are you really going to quit over all this? That would be a
shame (no pun intended). If you were in my play group, I would still
welcome you to a game... and promptly try to oust you with my new
Camarilla Edition cards. ;o) (if you were my prey, of course)
> v:tes collection for sale -- pretty impressive, too, and i'd like to
> get rid of it before the company totally devalues it...
You accomplished that on your own. Why did you devalue your own
cards?
> even i am surprised at the depth of the contempt i find myself holding
> you in...
What's that all about? Why such strong feelings about a card game?
Take it easy, go on a vacation, or find some other hobbies for a
while... it's not that big of a deal.
you've set a new low standard for an industry where we all
> thought wotc had sunk as low as a company could get...
Some people don't have any problems with Wizards of the Coast. I
don't know much about it, but they ARE just a gaming company, right?
They aren't Enron... we're not talking about national health care...
they don't make cigarettes or crack... we're not going to war over
this issue... no one has died, been beaten, or hurt in any real sense
of the word...
Maybe you need to travel a bit more. Go live in the poor regions of
India for a while. Stand in line for bread in the old soviet
republics (my dad did that a few years ago - that REALLY sucks).
Leave all your money behind and try to survive in the farm regions of
China for a while (the people I met were nice, but I certainly don't
want to live that way). Basically, do some things that give you a
larger perspective. Put your cards down, get out of the house, and
find some other things to do for a while. I'm not trying to be rude
here. These are things that I need to do also. I've become a bit too
bogged down in this sort of thing lately. I've definitely spent too
much time reading these newsgroup posts! :o) Just a few
suggestions... something to consider anyway.
> hah -- and i didn't even violate the nda...!
I'm not so sure about that. You're more recent posts are bluring the
lines a bit and you may have given them enough rope to hang you
already. Be careful.
> -- khs
Kevin Scribner wrote:
> waiting for the set to be released is the needle and the damage
> done... a lot of players buy their stuff in advance... they think
> they're ordering v:tes... they're actually ordering something far
> different... and ww / lsj don't want them to know it in advance...
> v:tg is more like it... i think that's just as low as anything wotc
> ever did [and they pulled some SHIT]... only this isn't wotc, and
> it's the first step down an ugly road... so i acted in accordance
> with my conscience, and did so though it costs me my favorite
> recreational activity that doesn't involve my genitals...
Kevin, all it would have taken was an email to LSJ saying, "Hey,
I noticed that the pre-order deadline is this Friday, and I think
the new grouping rule is something that may affect players' decisions
to buy. I suggest that you post the new rule before the pre-order
deadline."
That's all it would have taken. Instead you chose to corner the
discussion of the new set in such a way that there was a de facto
disclosing of confidential material, along with baseless accusations
and needless insults.
As a result, we the Boston group will likely be penalized for
your actions. We've spent years building up our group and
establishing friendships and relationships with the players and
company of this game. We're proud of what we've accomplished
and the friendships we've made. Now you've torpedoed the trust
we've had with White Wolf with your idiocy.
> you are, of course, quite mistaken... assuming that those who know
> you don't already consider you an ass, they certainly will after the
> secrecy has dropped and they realize what a big deal it really is...
Well, now that the secrecy has been dropped, and people are realizing
what a big deal it really...um...hmm...So what was the big deal, again?
(See you again in a month, Mike!)
- Ben Peal, Prince of Boston
fu...@mindstorm.com
>
> As a result, we the Boston group will likely be penalized for
> your actions.
I hope that is not the case. Your group has always beed an invaluable
resource to to the playtesting community. Your group should not be
defined by one rogue deviant player.
We've spent years building up our group and
> establishing friendships and relationships with the players and
> company of this game. We're proud of what we've accomplished
> and the friendships we've made.
Don't worry YOUR friends arn't going anywhere!
Now you've torpedoed the trust
> we've had with White Wolf with your idiocy.
Maybe they will just ask that all future info be withheld from kevin,
not that it matters anymore cause he's quitting right. Crap, your
probably gonna get first shot at his collection arn't you!? I'll go in
with you on it ;)
>
> ...um...hmm...So what was the big deal, again?
I think it was that Sears is having a sale on home
furnishings....or....something like that, ...oh...I already forgot.
>
> (See you again in a month, Mike!)
Can't wait!
Michael Courtois
***Jedimike****
Tal...@nodamspamhotmail.com wrote:
> Noal McDonald wrote:
> >Emotional investment?!? *checks crotch* Yep. I'm a guy.
>> If you do not understand the concept that's fine, I certainly am not
> interested in educating you on it. But my statement stands, you are
> ignoring it.
No...I'm not ignoring what does not exist. I'm sorry if you have
emotional attachment to the rules of a strategy game. I don't.
Strategy is an intellectual pursuit, not an emotional one. Published
changes to the rules that maintain a level playing field dictate a
change to the strategies used, nothing more.
Certainly, I understand emotional investment. However, mine is placed
in the friendships that I have developed with the people that play the
game, not the game itself. Rules changes will continue to have no
bearing on that.
> >> of us have to go through to earn that kind of money to support it.
> >
> >All hobbies, except perhaps rock collecting, requires a substantial of
> >investment of money. If you can't afford VTES as a hobby, find something
> >else to do with your friends.
>
> Its not about affording it, its about spending that time and money on
> it and then feeling like you've WASTED that time and money.
If you're lamenting the money you've spent on a game that, by its very
nature, must evolve or die, instead of being happy that the money
spent on the game has resulted in lasting friendships and fond
memories...than perhaps you're correct. You have wasted your money.
> > If you don't have comments on the topic of the post to which you respond,
> > kindly don't comment at all.
>
> I'll comment as I see fit thanks. No need to be hostile.
That was hardly hostile. Do a quick google search and read through
some of my posts in the past if you'd like a sampling of me actually
being hostile. However, if you can't stick to the subject being
discussed, I do reserve the right to belittle you or ignore you as I
see fit.
Regards,
Noal
"Shaun McIsaac" <mpm...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3D23392A...@attbi.com...
> The current solution doesn't help new players at all. If the old
> vampires are more powerful, and new players can't get them, they're
> still screwed. Old players would still dominate with their old cards
> that aren't banned.
If the new vampires are *just as good* then it helps new
players. I've seen three new vampires so far and I think
they're probably going to be just as good.
> Reprint the useful vamps if it becomes difficult. Though to be sure, I
> doubt that there will ever be a true shortage of vampires for new
> players, since there were a *lot* of them printed. Existing players
> should be able to trade vamps to newbie all day long. I've got boxes
> and boxes myself, and I'm hardly as invested into this game as most ppl
> here.
If we consider the long term, it's obvious that there are not
an infinite number of Jyhad/VTES cards available and they won't
last forever. Check online prices if you don't believe me; it
costs almost as much right now to buy Jyhad boosters as Camarilla
Edition ones, and VTES boosters are more expensive than CE. And
that's right now, not two years from now when the next Camarilla
set might come out.
Plus, White Wolf doesn't get paid for people buying old cards,
and we do want WW to get paid, right?
As far as reprints, a viable CCG = a CCG with new cards coming
out. CCG players want new cards. They're not so interested in
buying more copies of cards they already have.
> Hrm, not sure about that. I believe M:tG hit a peak around the early
> days of Type2, though I don't have a great method of tracking # of
> players. You could ask Dave Delaney (sp) for the years it was most
> profitable, maybe? That's not the same as more ppl playing though, as
> it could mean less ppl buying more.
If I knew who Dave Delaney was, I could ask him. :-) What's his
source? WotC annual statements?
Regardless of the actual numbers - and I really doubt that Magic
hit any peak in player numbers right when Type 2 was created,
several years ago and before the Pro Tour - my point is that Magic
survives and thrives by bringing in lots and lots of new players
to replace the ones who leave or outgrow it. I and plenty of
other older people have stopped playing Magic, but there are
always kids playing it in all the game stores.
> The fact that existing decks will *never* get crypt help is not minor.
Nor necessarily true. WW can print vampires with whatever group
number they want on them. 1, 2, 3, 4, 25, whatever.
Any existing "2" decks can get crypt help from CE and any number
of other sets, too.
Existing decks that rely on "1" vampires won't get new vampires
to help them in CE, sure, but they don't really *need* them, do
they? If you want to use Anson, Anneke, Masika, Gilbert Duane,
Anvil, that's all your choice and the existing vamps to support
them do so just fine. As long as they don't overpower the *new*
vamps, there will never be any problem playing Group 1+2 decks,
and given that they're doing this *specifically to avoid* giving
decks too many good vampires, I doubt that they're planning to
overpower new vamps.
Josh
a bit behind on the message responding bit
Joshua Duffin wrote:
> > Hrm, not sure about that. I believe M:tG hit a peak around the early
> > days of Type2, though I don't have a great method of tracking # of
> > players. You could ask Dave Delaney (sp) for the years it was most
> > profitable, maybe? That's not the same as more ppl playing though, as
> > it could mean less ppl buying more.
>
> If I knew who Dave Delaney was, I could ask him. :-) What's his
> source? WotC annual statements?
Dave Delaney is (was, at least, the last time I looked in the Magic
newsgroups) a WotC rules netrep. He was not in the early years (when
Tom Wylie was the netrep for both Magic and Jyhad) but he's been a dedicated
player and newsgroup contributor pretty much right from the start.
Fred