[Black Hand Spoilers]

Specialization - R Unique master. Put this card in play. During your untap phse, you may tap this card and discard two copies of the same card from your hand to gain 1 pool. Draw back up to your hand size afterward. Information Network - R Requires Nosferatu Antitribu 1 pool Unique master. Tap to give a Nosferatu antitribu you control +1 intercept. Flavour: Knowledge is of two kinds: we know a subject ourselves, or we know where we can find information upon it. -Samuel Johnson, in James Boswell's The Life of Samuel Johnson, LL.D. Next! salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

Here are some love at first sight cards I just got back home from our local pre-release. Doctor Streck Brujah!, 8 cap CEL OBF PRE aus pot Sabbat: When Streck bleeds successfully, the target Metuselah discards one card at random from his or her hand. (!Toreadors with obfuscate or !Malkavians with presence anyone? Or why not both?) Henry Taylor Brujah!, 6 cap POT cel pre pro Sabbat: After an action, you may move a combat card Henry played during that action from your ash heap to the to of your library. (Let's reuse that Disarm after preventing with Flesh of Marble.) Miguel Santo Domingo Brujah!, 7 cap POT PRE cel for Sabbat: Once each _action_, Miguel can burn 1 blood to give any other Sabbat vampire you control +1 bleed for the current action. (Sabbat weenie presence bleed anyone?) Ignazio Giovanni Giovanni, 9 cap DOM FOR NEC POT obf Independent: Ignazio can enter combat with a vampire of capacity less than 7 controlled by your predator or prey as a (D) action. +1 strength. (New friend of Lazverinus.) Charice Fontaigne !Ventrue, 6 cap AUS DOM for pot Sabbat. (Goes also well with Lazverinus.) Owain Evans, The Wanderer !Ventrue, 8 cap AUS DOM FOR cel pre Sabbat: During any Metuselah's untap phase if Owain is ready, you may move a blood from the blood bank to a vampire that Metuselah controls. (Extra hunting ground anyone?) Blackhorse Tanner !Ventrue, 7 cap AUS DOM FOR Sabbat, Black Hand: Once each turn, when you draw a card from your library, you may place that card on the bottom of your library and draw a new card. (Card recycling with class, smallest !Ventrue with all clans at superior, and Black Hand to make it almost too good to be true.) Katherine Stoddard !Ventrue, 4 cap dom for Sabbat, Black Hand: Once during your turn, if Katherine is ready, you may discard a card that requires Auspex from your hand. Draw back up to your hand size afterward. (A bit more recycling.) Dominique !Ventrue, 7 cap AUS FOR ani dom vic Advanced, Sabbat: During your untap phase, you may burn a location you control to gain X pool, where X is the cost of that location. []] Independent Anarch Baron of Paris. (Hello Mister Villoin. Could you please get out of here. I'm the boss now.) and last but not least Rodolfo !Malkavian, 8 cap AUS DEM OBF pro Sabbat bishop: +1 bleed. (As the !Malks weren't good enough bleeders yet. I love this guy.) Next part: Master cards.

New archetypes Creepshow Master: archetype, Trifle. Put this card on a Sabbat vampire you control. Once per turn, when a minion opposing this vampire in combat dodges or ends combat as a strike, this vampire gains 1 blood from the blood bank. A vampire can have only one archetype. Flavor: Beware Of Entrance to a quarrel; but being in, Bear't that the opposed may beware of thee. Shakespeare, Hamlet, act 1, scene 3 Sociopath Master: archetype. Put this card on a sabbat vampire you control. Once per turn, when this vampire remains ready and burns a minion in combat or sends a vampire to torpor in combat, he or she gains 1 blood from the blood bank. A vampire can have only one archetype. Flavor: When he is best, he is little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice, act 1, scene 2 Guru Master: archetype Put this card on a Sabbat vampire you control. Once per turn, when this vampire calls a referendum and it passes, he or she gains 1 blood from the blood bank. A vampire can have only one archetype. And then there was something called 'Capitalist' that gave the same 1 blood when successfully bleeding for 1 or more. Wathctower: Four Ride Forth 1 pool, burn option Master: watchtower. Requires a ready Seraph Put this card in play. During your discard phase, you may tap this card to untap any ready Black Hand vampire. Burn this card if another watchtower enters play. Watchtower: Chosen Are Called had some nifty card recycling ability (Fragment that cannot be stolen or something similar to effect). Didn't see the Watchtower: Greatest Fall Next: minion cards

Gloves that I learned to love. Although my prey's prey blocked me once when I tried to get these. Nice threat factor. Black Gloves Equipment, 3 pool Unique melee weapon. Strength+1 aggravated damage each strike. Bearer takes 1 damage during strike resolution when this weapon is used, but only once each combat. Flavour: We know more about war than we know about peace, more about killing than we know about living. - Gen. Omar Bradley, 1948 speach Gemini's Mirror Combat, 1 blood [obf] Strike: dodge with an optional maneuver. [OBF] Only usable before range is determined. When resolving each strike against this vampire, flip a coin. If it's tails, the strike has no effect on this vampire. This lasts until heads is flipped or combat ends. A vampire can play only one Gemini's Mirror at superior each combat. (Saw this being used twice. Once I dodged a Lid thrown by a Nosferatu another time a Nosferatu defeated the Tremere.) Under the Skin Action Modifier Only usable during a referendum before votes are cast. [aus] [pre] Choose a younger vampire. That vampire abstains from voting. [AUS] [PRE] As above, and tap that vampire at the end of the action if the referendum passes. Flavour: The brain may devise laws for the blood, but a hot tempre leaps o'er a cold decree. - Shakespeare, The Merchant of Venice, act 1, scene 2 (What's there left to stop Toreador from voting?) Random Patterns Action Modifier/Reaction [aus] [dem] +1 intercept. [AUS] [DEM] Only usable when a minion is attempting to block this acting vampire. The blocking minion gets -1 intercept. Flavour: Knowledge is more than equivalent to force. - Samuel Johnson, Rasselas (Nice double use card for modern Malkavians.) Babble Reaction [dem] Give another ready minion +1 intercept. [DEM] Tap this vampire to untap another ready minion. Not usable by a blocking minion. Flavour: Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all. - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead (Escape Mental Patient blocks the hunt and strikes for 2 aggravated after you decide your strike to see if you dodge.) Quicken Sight Reaction [aus] [cel] +1 intercept, with an optional meneuver in the resulting combat if this vampire successfully blocks. [AUS] [CEL] As above, but with +2 intercept. Flavour: So scented the grim Feature, and upturn'd His nostril wide into the murky air, Sagacious of his quarry from so far. - John Milton, Paradise Lost (Enhanced Senses with maneuver for the Toreador. Very useful.) Seraph Political Card - Worth 1 Vote. Called by any Black Hand vampire at +1 stealth. Choose a non-Seraph Black Hand vampire with a capacity above 5. If this referendum is successful, put this card on the chosen vampire. That Black Hand vampire gainst 2 blood and is a Seraph. Non-Sabbat vampires cannot vote in this referendum. (Feared the possibility of not being able to make new Seraphi. This looks like a proper way.) Loyalist Reaction, !Ventrue Only usable during a referendum. Usable by a _tapped_ vampire. This vampire gains 3 votes against the referendum. If the acting vampire is Sabbat and the referendum fails, move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. Flavour: Old-fashioned Loyalists don't last all that long, even when they've got your potential for power. - Andrew Emory, Lasombra bishop (As the !Ventrue would need something to make even a more effective vote lock. Might even use this one.)

On 15 Nov 2003, JH wrote: > Loyalist > Reaction, !Ventrue > Only usable during a referendum. Usable by a _tapped_ vampire. > This vampire gains 3 votes against the referendum. If the acting > vampire is Sabbat and the referendum fails, move up to 2 blood > from the acting vampire to this vampire. So, presumably these votes can still be canceled by the usual means, but can they be changed to votes in favor by, say, Kindred Manipulation? Marc G.

[ quoted text not captured ] No. If the vampire's votes are changed to be in favor, those three votes will be silenced (until the vampire's disposition is changed back). The three votes can only be cast against the referendum. A vampire who is already voting in favor of a referendum cannot play Loyalist to change his position to one of opposition to the referendum. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

JH expounded: > Gloves that I learned to love. Although my prey's prey blocked me once I'm surprised you didn't put this one: (from memory) Zillah's Tears Action Put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire gains one blood. This vampire may burn this card at any time after the end of this turn to untap. I liked the look of the 1R agg unpreventable (long only) CHI card too.

On 15 Nov 2003 09:52:56 -0800, jhat...@tenerdo.org (JH) scrawled: >Henry Taylor >Brujah!, 6 cap >POT cel pre pro >Sabbat: After an action, you may move a combat card Henry played >during that action from your ash heap to the to of your library. >(Let's reuse that Disarm after preventing with Flesh of Marble.) Presumably the disarm would not be 'in your ash heap', rather it would be on the opposing minion? but still, it's a nice ability. >Dominique >!Ventrue, 7 cap >AUS FOR ani dom vic >Advanced, Sabbat: During your untap phase, you may burn a location you >control to gain X pool, where X is the cost of that location. >[]] Independent Anarch Baron of Paris. >(Hello Mister Villoin. Could you please get out of here. I'm the boss now.) Also, her picture is HOT. Contrast with Sela^, who's a hag. [ quoted text not captured ]

could you tell us which rares are in the other starters? thx

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3FB67479...@white-wolf.com>... > Marc Gabriele wrote: > > On 15 Nov 2003, JH wrote: > > > > > >>Loyalist > >>Reaction, !Ventrue > >>Only usable during a referendum. Usable by a _tapped_ vampire. > >>This vampire gains 3 votes against the referendum. If the acting > >>vampire is Sabbat and the referendum fails, move up to 2 blood > >>from the acting vampire to this vampire. > > > > > > So, presumably these votes can still be canceled by the usual > > means, but can they be changed to votes in favor by, say, Kindred > > Manipulation? > > No. If the vampire's votes are changed to be in favor, those three > votes will be silenced (until the vampire's disposition is changed > back). > > The three votes can only be cast against the referendum. > > A vampire who is already voting in favor of a referendum cannot play > Loyalist to change his position to one of opposition to the referendum. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 15 Nov 2003 15:40:47 -0800, Patric...@hotmail.com (Gorrath) wrote: >could you tell us which rares are in the other starters? Yes. But then I'd have to kill you. Wait until the pre-release weekend is over, and you will see all of the starters probably sometime Monday night. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com/decks.htm#precon

Some of my faves so far: Sire's Index Finger Unique Equipment The vampire with this equipment is immune to frenzy cards (including Brujah Frenzy, Drawing Out the Beast, Frenzy, Rotschreck and Terror Frenzy). Path of Death and the Soul Unique Master Put this card in play. When a minion controlled by another Methusaleh is burned, you may tap this card to search your library (shuffle afterward), ash heap or hand for a Master: Discipline card. Move 1 blood from the blood bank and that card to a ready vampire you control. As far as vamps go, Advanced Jessica (8-cap) is quite good. Unmerged, she's still a bishop and gets +1 stealth on political actions, and merged she becomes Archbishop of Brussels. And Advanced Dominique is wearing one of the most revealing dresses in the game, but there's a card that's even more revealing than that (which doesn't even involve a dress). I forget the name, since it's not one I got myself, but a new master for the !Gangrel (Talons of the Dead, maybe?) has some serious eyebrow-raising potential. Eric Simon Prince of Chicago

Some more spoilers: Yazid Tamari Assamite, 8 cap ani dom obf CEL QUI Sabbat Black Hand Seraph: +1 Bleed. The Blood curse does not affect Yazid. Wah Chun-Yen Brujah Antitrubu, 5 cap cel dom pre POT Sabbat Black Hand Sebastian Goulet Gangrel Antitribu, 8 cap cel pre pro DOM OBF Advanced, Sabbat: Sebastian gets +1 stealth when employing a retainer or recruiting an ally. Merge: He can steal a retainer or ally as a +1 stealth (D) action Olga Triminov Pander, 1 cap vic Sabbat: Any Black Hand vampire can steal Olga for his or her controller as a (D) action that costs 1 pool. Midget Malkavian Antitribu, 3 cap obf pre DEM Sabbat: Infernal. Animal retainers lose their abilities while Midget is acting or is in combat. Zip Ravnos, 2 cap ani Sabbat. Ezekiel, Lord of Montreal Follower of Set, 6 cap obf pot PRE SER Sabbat: Black Hand. Ingram Frizer Nosferatu Antitribu, 6 cap ani pot AUS OBF Sabbat: Black Hand. Kazimir Savostin Tzimisce, 7 cap ani pot AUS VIC Sabbat: Black Hand Seraph: When Kazimir blocks, he gets one optional press in the resulting combat. Tarbaby Jack Nosferatu Antitribu, 8 cap dom ser ANI OBF POT Sabbat: Black Hand: If Tarbaby is ready, you get one extra transfer during your influence phase. Sela Brujah Antitribu, 7 cap cel obt POT PRE Advanced, Sabbat Archbishop of Rome: Sela gets +1 steal on (D) actions directed at a Methuselah who controls a ready bishop. Venere Carboni Toreador Antitribu, 8 cap ani AUS CEL PRE Sabbat priscus: If Venere is in torpor during your untap phase, he may burn 1 blood to move to your ready region. Sabrina Toreador Antitribu, 4 cap aus cel pre Sabbat. Jessica Toreador Antitribu, 8 cap AUS CEL OBF PRE Advanced, Sabbat bishop: Jessica gets +1 stealth on political actions. Merge: Archbishop of Brussels. ------------------------------- Tenebrous Form Action Modifier 1 blood [obt]: +1 stealth [OBT]: As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to attempt to block. Mayaparisataya Combat card 2 blood [chi]: Weapons possessed by the opposing minion inflict no damage on this vampire for the duration of combat. [CHI]: Strike: 1R aggravated damage. This damage cannot be prevented. Only usable at long range. Animal Magnetism Action Modifier Only usable during a referendum. [ani][obf]: This vampire gains 1 vote. [ANI][OBF]: This vampire gains 3 votes. Dominion Master. Put this card on a Black Hand vampire. Vampires must burn 1 blood to attempt to block this Black Hand vampire. A vampire can have only one Dominion. Communal Haven: Cathedral Master: location 1 pool You may tap this card during your master phase to transfer equipment and/or move blood between any two ready Sabbat vampires you control. Mesmerize Action +1 Stealth action. [dom]: (D) Steal equipment from an ally. [DOM]: (D) Steal equipment from a younger vampire. Alpha Glint Combat Card 1 blood Not usable in combat with an ally or an older vampire. [ani][for]: Strike: combat ends. [ANI]{FOR]: Only usable before range is determined. Combat ends. Rooftop Shadow Reaction 1 blood [cel]: +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has Celerity. [CEL]: +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has superior Celerity. Council of Seraphim Action Modifier Burn Option. Requires a Seraph. Only usable when a minion is attempting to block. If a Sabbat vampire is attempting to block, that block attempt fails (do not tap that vampire.) That vampire cannot block this action. Otherwise, the blocking minion gets -1 intercept. Deploy the Hand Political Action Political card - worth 1 vote. Called by any archbishop or cardinal at +1 stealth. Choose one or more Methuselahs who do not have a target counter. Successful referendum means each chosen Methuselah gets a target counter. During his or her untap phase, a Methuselah with a target counter chooses one of his or her ready minions, who takes 2 unpreventable damage. A Methuselah may burn the Edge to burn his or her target counter. Remover Master. Put this card on a Black Hand vampire. This vampire can tap any card (including a minion) as a +1 stealth (D) action. A vampire can only have one Remover. Legwork Reaction 1 blood. Do not replace until your next untap phase. +1 intercept. Not usable by a vampire with more than 0 intercept. Weeping Stone Master: unique location 3 pool +1 hand size. During your untap phase, a ready Black Hand vampire you control gains 1 blood. Any Assamite can burn this card as a (D) action that costs 1 pool. WMRH Talk Radio Master: unique location 1 pool Tap to give any minion +1 intercept. If that minion doesn't successfully block the action, burn 1 pool after the action resolves. Iron Glare Action Modifier [pot][pre]: Only usable during a referendum. This vampire gains 2 votes. [POT][PRE]: +2 bleed. After playing this card, you cannot play another action modifier to further increase the bleed for this action. ------------------ -John Flournoy

> []] Independent Anarch Baron of Paris. > (Hello Mister Villoin. Could you please get out of here. I'm the boss now.) Wow. I wasn't expecting any Barons in this set. Fanboy

>Zip >Ravnos, 2 cap >ani >Sabbat *sighs* Token Ravnos. Mayaparasatya looks cool, though. Would've imagined it being another action card, though, considering in tabletop it's just another name for the Reality power. Fanboy

Eric Simon expounded: > not one I got myself, but a new master for the !Gangrel (Talons of the > Dead, maybe?) has some serious eyebrow-raising potential. Talons of the dead has a nude woman (vampire) with red hair sitting/squatting with her back to a tree and blood running from her mouth (open) over her breasts. You can see her right breast (left side is to us and her arm covers that one) which is mostly covered in blood. She is very pale and has (bloody) taloned hands. (Unique master; 2 pool; !Gangrel; put on a !gang to give agg hands and make D actions cost 1 blood extra)

Eric Simon wrote: > Sire's Index Finger > Unique Equipment > The vampire with this equipment is immune to frenzy cards (including > Brujah Frenzy, Drawing Out the Beast, Frenzy, Rotschreck and Terror > Frenzy). Thank god DotB now has a counter. --Colin McGuigan

"John Flournoy" <flou...@rcn.com> wrote: > Some more spoilers: snip Some small to midcap Lasobras: not too interesting, but give nice options to smaller crypt: Hester Reed Lasombra, 3 cap obt pot Sabbat Tabitha Fisk Lasombra, 4 cap obt pot pro Sabbat: During your untap phase, an archbishop you control may move 1 blood to Tabitha. Banjoko Lasombra, 5 cap DOM obt pot Sabbat: Black Hand Seraph. Ooh, a 5 cap Lasombra with all in-clan disciplines :) and a fattie: Nahir Lasombra, 10 cap ANI DOM OBT POT tha Sabbat: ...can use a master phase and 1 pool to gain +1 hand size, +1 bleed Too bad that she is so big, ANI/OBT would have been nice on a smaller minion. Library: Last Stand Unique Master, 6 (!) pool: Put this card in play. When any other Methuselah is ousted, the current turn ends, and this card is burned. The predator of the ousted Methuselah (if more than one was ousted, go clockwise from the left of the Methuselah whose turn just ended) takes the next turn. Hmmm...pay 6 pool to make an overextended attack. Risky, but may be worth the cost. Thin-Blooded Seer Action, Requires a ready, non-sterile vampire of capacity less than 3. Put this card into play: it becomes a 1 capacity vampire. This vampire is clanless and sterile. This vampire is not considered unique, must hunt this turn and is the same sect as the acting vampire. Cards that cost blood cost this vampire twice as much blood to play. During your untap phase, you may tap this vampire to look at the top two cards of any Methuselah's library. A 1 capacity vampire can easily give unlife to this little jewel...which is not unique. Nice addition to any weenie deck, I think. -Antero

AL expounded: > and a fattie: > Nahir > Lasombra, 10 cap > ANI DOM OBT POT tha > Sabbat: ...can use a master phase and 1 pool to gain +1 hand size, +1 > bleed > Too bad that she is so big, ANI/OBT would have been nice on a smaller > minion. Unless I'm ver much mistaken this uses research counters which don't go away and so can extend you hand size indefininately.

Amria Mayaparasita I guess I would be asking to much to give the Assamites a card that could do unpreventable agg damage at range... M.

Well, I had a good time at our local pre-release event, even making the final. Jeff Haar played amasterful game, and his cool style and careful demeanor brought him victory. Anyway, here are some nice or odd cards. I won't post all I saw or got, but these are at least noteworthy, I think: Typhonic Beast Combat card, 1 blood Only usable before range is determined ser: For the remainder of cmbat, this vampire gets +1 strength pot ser: as above, and this vampire can prevent 1 dmg each round POT SER: as pot ser, and this vampire gets and optional press this round. Sibyl's Tongue Action card, requires !Malk +1 stealth action This action costs X blood, where X is the number of Sybil's Tongues in your ash heap. Choose a card by name. Search your library for a copy of that card, show it to all players, and move it to your hand. Discard down to your hand size and shuffle your library afterwards. Path of Evil Revelations Unique Master card (note: no cost) Put this card in play. During your master phase, you may burn 1 pool to untap all infernal minions you control. Any minion may burn this card as a (d) action; if that minion is a vampire, he or she takes one damage (damage not preventable) when this card is burned. (some diety, or at least LSJ, must love the Baali today) Vox Senis Unique Master Put this card in play. Each Methuselah gets 1 additional vote during each referendum. Alternatively, you may discard this card from your hand as an out-of-turn master to gain 3 votes in that referendum. (I liked this lots. Solid alternative to Delaying Tactics, if there are any table votes). Circumspect Revelation Action modifier Requires a Black Hand vampire. Only usable when a Sabbat vampire attempts to block. The block attempt fails, and that Sabbat vampire cannot attempt to block this action again. (Cornercase in most games, but in this tournament very strong indeed). Iron Glare Action modifier pot pre: Only usable during a referendum. THis vampire gains 2 votes. POT PRE: +2 bleed. After playing this carf, you cannot play another action modifier to further increase the bleed for this action. (My Cailean loved this card. I was drafting for a !Brujah/!Nossie deck as soon I saw this card) Reunion Kamut Action card Requires a Black Hand vampire +1 stealth action. Move 2 blood from the blood bank to a Black Hand vampire in your uncontrolled region. (with the Black Hand sect starting at 2-cap, this is a power card, easily as good as the Fourth Tradition) Sela (advanced) !Brujah, 7 capacity cel obt POT PRE Archbishop of Rome Sela gets +1 stealth on (d) actions directed at a Methuselah who controls a ready bishop. (No merged ability) Mariano Pomposa !Brujah, 4 capacity aus cel pot Black Hand Tock !Nosferatu, 4 capacity obf pot pre Regards, Patrick Columbus, OH

Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<MPG.1a21a1de4...@news.freeserve.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Yes it is :) only that it will cost pool, and if one needs to grow hand size to, say, 10, permanently, the deck is not flowing well... -Antero

vol...@yahoo.com (Eric Simon) writes: > Path of Death and the Soul > Unique Master > Put this card in play. When a minion controlled by another Methusaleh > is burned, you may tap this card to search your library (shuffle > afterward), ash heap or hand for a Master: Discipline card. Move 1 > blood from the blood bank and that card to a ready vampire you > control. What happens if you have no legal targets for the discipline cards you have? (All your available vamps have superior whatever.) Do you just get the blood without the card, or will the blood fizzle also? The wording seems to imply the latter. -- hg@ It's better to open your mouth and appear stupid, iki.fi than to hold it shut and keep thinking you know it all.

On 15 Nov 2003 20:28:20 -0800, vol...@yahoo.com (Eric Simon) wrote: >Sire's Index Finger >Unique Equipment >The vampire with this equipment is immune to frenzy cards (including >Brujah Frenzy, Drawing Out the Beast, Frenzy, Rotschreck and Terror >Frenzy). Rotschreck is reprinted and doesn't mention that it is a frenzy card and the list of frenzy cards is presumably not all inclusive. Now it seems that the only thing that ties all these frenzy cards together (apart from obviously being included as such on this card) is that in the game world they are all abilities or suchlike that play on frenzy. My question therefore is, does Out of Control also count or, should it also count?

shawn stanley expounded: > My question therefore is, does Out of Control also count or, should it > also count? My money is on It doesn't. It should.

Metropolis expounded: [ quoted text not captured ] You certainly are! ;P They might start winning then! (cel has much better maneuvers which is not an inconsequential difference -not to mention the additional strikes) Well you can always use the EoH.

On 16 Nov 2003 10:22:43 -0800, nom...@jippii.fi (AL) scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] on the bright side, i don't recall seeing the word 'ready' anywhere in her card text...so if she's in torpor her research still helps. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

On 16 Nov 2003 10:14:52 -0800, sam...@hotmail.com (Patrick van der Reest) scrawled: >Sela (advanced) >!Brujah, 7 capacity >cel obt POT PRE >Archbishop of Rome > >Sela gets +1 stealth on (d) actions directed at a Methuselah who >controls a ready bishop. (No merged ability) note base Sela's ability: If Sela becomes an archbishop, each ready bishop controlled by your prey burns 1 blood. So if you have the base version out, and then merge Sela^ onto her, all your prey's ready bishops burn a blood! very cornercase, but at least it synergises. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 16 Nov 2003 21:53:52 +0200, h...@iki.fi.remove.these.invalid (Janne Hägglund) scrawled: >vol...@yahoo.com (Eric Simon) writes: > >> Path of Death and the Soul >> Unique Master >> Put this card in play. When a minion controlled by another Methusaleh >> is burned, you may tap this card to search your library (shuffle >> afterward), ash heap or hand for a Master: Discipline card. Move 1 >> blood from the blood bank and that card to a ready vampire you >> control. > > > What happens if you have no legal targets for the discipline cards you >have? (All your available vamps have superior whatever.) > > Do you just get the blood without the card, or will the blood fizzle also? >The wording seems to imply the latter. previously on 'search' library effects, you have been allowed to fail to find anything (either because it's not there, or you just choose to not find it). I would assume that if you fail to find a skill card )or a playable skill card) you'd still get the blood. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Out of Control does not count. At this point there is no card text to make it count, and only the SIF card could make it so. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

Janne Hägglund wrote: > vol...@yahoo.com (Eric Simon) writes: >>Path of Death and the Soul >>Unique Master >>Put this card in play. When a minion controlled by another Methusaleh >>is burned, you may tap this card to search your library (shuffle >>afterward), ash heap or hand for a Master: Discipline card. Move 1 >>blood from the blood bank and that card to a ready vampire you >>control. > > What happens if you have no legal targets for the discipline cards you > have? (All your available vamps have superior whatever.) > > Do you just get the blood without the card, or will the blood fizzle also? > The wording seems to imply the latter. The wording effects the former. The latter would require something like "Move that card to a ready vampire to move a blood from the blood bank to that vampire". [ quoted text not captured ]

> > > Nahir > > > Lasombra, 10 cap > > > ANI DOM OBT POT tha > > > Sabbat: ...can use a master phase and 1 pool to gain +1 hand size, +1 > > > bleed > > > Too bad that she is so big, ANI/OBT would have been nice on a smaller > > > minion. > > > > Unless I'm ver much mistaken this uses research counters which don't go > > away and so can extend you hand size indefininately. > > Yes it is :) only that it will cost pool, and if one needs to grow > hand size to, say, 10, permanently, the deck is not flowing well... > > -Antero uhhh, I'm thinking this is way better then you think. Sure, one doesn't truely need a handsize of 12, but a bleed of +5?!?! It's stoned-out Spiridonas on a high that never ends! ohhhh, if only the thaum could have been Fortitude!!! Still a good ol' Nahir? Wasn't that the sire of Marcus Vitel? Jamie The Seppo

On 16 Nov 2003 17:27:09 -0800, moon...@useoz.com (Jamie The Seppo) scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] except the 'quoted' text was in error. it's pay a pool to get a research counter. +1 hand size per research counter. after all her special text is also just a flat +1 bleed. >Nahir? Wasn't that the sire of Marcus Vitel? cool. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 16 Nov 2003 17:27:09 -0800, moon...@useoz.com (Jamie The Seppo) wrote: >> > > Nahir >> > > Lasombra, 10 cap >> > > ANI DOM OBT POT tha >> > > Sabbat: ...can use a master phase and 1 pool to gain +1 hand size, +1 >> > > bleed >> > > Too bad that she is so big, ANI/OBT would have been nice on a smaller >> > > minion. >> > Unless I'm ver much mistaken this uses research counters which don't go >> > away and so can extend you hand size indefininately. >> Yes it is :) only that it will cost pool, and if one needs to grow >> hand size to, say, 10, permanently, the deck is not flowing well... >uhhh, I'm thinking this is way better then you think. Sure, one >doesn't truely need a handsize of 12, but a bleed of +5?!?! There is nothing in Nahir's card text to allow her bleed to increase. Accurate and complete card text: Nahir ANI DOM OBT POT tha 10 Sabbat. If Nahir is ready, you may use a master phase action to burn 1 pool to put a research counter on her. Each research counter she has increases your hand size by one. +1 bleed. >It's stoned-out Spiridonas on a high that never ends! >ohhhh, if only the thaum could have been Fortitude!!! Still a good >ol' That would have been some good crack. Unfortunately, LSJ is the father of 2, and not likely to be doing enough crack to design a vampire like that any time in the near future (or the recent past). >Nahir? Wasn't that the sire of Marcus Vitel? No clue. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Nahir? Wasn't that the sire of Marcus Vitel? > > Jamie > The Seppo Nope. Vitel was sired by Sybil. If they made her I'd be impressed. Not to mention the Black sisters.

[ quoted text not captured ] yeah, that's obviously the case at the moment, but I was really just wondering whether Out of Control may have just been forgoteen about in the design/ testing stages for SIF. ... well really I just didn't want to have to change all my decks to take Out of Control out ...

A few more spoilers from today's pre-release. Mariano Pomposo Brujah Antitribu 4 capacity Group 3 aus cel pot Sabbat Black Hand. Miguel Santo Domingo Brujah Antitribu 7 capacity Group 3 cel for POT PRE Sabbat: Once each action, Miguel can burn 1 blood to give any other Sabbat vampire you control +1 bleed for the current action. Maria Stone Gangrel Antitribu 5 capacity Group 3 cel FOR obf pro Sabbat Skryta Zyleta Gangrel Antitribu 5 capacity Group 3 CEL obf pot pro Sabbat Black Hand. Ignazio Giovanni Giovanni 9 capacity Group 3 DOM FOR NEC obf POT Independent: Ignazio can enter combat with a vampire of capacity less than 7 controlled by your predator or prey as a (D) action. +1 strength. Henri Lavenant Lasombra 7 capacity Group 3 DOM OBT pot qui Sabbat. Black Hand: You have +1 hand size while Henri is in combat. Yitzak Toreador Antitribu 7 capacity Group 3 AUS CEL pre THA Sabbat: Yitzak may tap a younger vampire as a (D) action. If successful, that vampire does not untap as normal during his or her next untap phase. Rosa Martinez Toreador Antitribu 9 capacity Group 3 AUS CEL FOR PRE Sabbat bishop: During your untap phase, if another ready vampire you control is a regent, Rosa gains 1 blood. +1 bleed. Ana Rita Montana 5 capacity Group 3 aus dom obf VIC Sabbat. Katherine Stoddard Ventrue Antitribu 4 capacity Group 3 dom for Sabbat. Black Hand: Once during your turn, if Katherine is ready, you may discard a card that requires Auspex from your hand. Draw back up to your hand size afterward. Martial Ritus Action 1 blood +1 stealth action. Requires a Sabbat vampire. Put this card on a younger Sabbat vampire and untap this acting vampire. The Sabbat vampire with this card gets +1 strength. During your next untap phase, burn this card. Zillah's Tears Action +1 stealth action. Requires a ready Sabbat vampire. Put this card on this acting vampire and move 1 blood from the blood bank to this vampire. This Sabbat vampire can burn this card any time after this turn ends to untap. A vampire can have only one Zillah's Tears. Stealth Ritus Action Modifier 1 blood Requires a ready Sabbat vampire. Only usable as the action is announced. Choose another ready Sabbat vampire you control. The chosen vampire burns 1 blood, or this card has no effect. This action gets +1 stealth, even if stealth is not yet needed. Chill of Oblivion Action Necromancy +1 stealth action. [nec] Put this card on a ready vampire. vampire (sic) may burn this card in combat to trat aggravated damage as normal for the remainder of combat. A vampire can have only one Chill of Oblivion. <NEC> As above, and this acting vampire untaps during your next discard phase. Brick Laying Action Potence [pot] (D) Burn a haven on an ally or younger vampire, or tap an ally or younger vampire. <POT> (D) As above, and inflict 1 damage on that minion. Shape Mastery Combat/Reaction Protean [pro] Cancel a combat card that requires Obtenebration, Protean, or Vicissitude as it is played (no cost is paid). The opposing minion cannot play that card again this action. <PRO> As above, but cancel an action modifier that requires any of those Disciplines. Deed the Heart's Desire Action Modifier Quietus 1 blood Only usable as the action is announced. [qui] Choose a younger vampire. He or she cannot block this action. <QUI> As above, and the chosen vampire cannot play reaction cards during this action. Corpse Balloon Retainer Vicissitude Ghoul with 1 life. [vic] If the minion with this retainer blocks a (D) action, he or she gets an optional maneuver on the first round of the resulting combat. <VIC> As above, and this minion gets +1 intercept against (D) actions. gomi -- Tenser, said the Tensor; Tenser, said the Tensor; Tension, apprehension, and dissension have begun.

[ quoted text not captured ] Fatima al-Faqadi loved that one. The best DotB-counter possible; an *equipment*. It's kinda funny.

the_capuchin wrote: >>>Sire's Index Finger > Fatima al-Faqadi loved that one. > The best DotB-counter possible; an *equipment*. It's kinda funny. Fatima's special only retrieves weapons, not general equipment, mind you. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 17 Nov 2003, the_capuchin wrote: > Fatima al-Faqadi loved that one. > The best DotB-counter possible; an *equipment*. It's kinda funny. I would still rate Ghoul Retainer as a better answer. The Finger might look best at first glance, but the Ghoul provides: A) protection against DotB B) protection against IG C) A 4 + 1 regular/agg package with the AR and Bow, which burns the crap out of people for zero cards. David Cherryholmes Duke Radiology P.E.T. Facility (919) 684-7714 david.che...@duke.edu

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3FB67479...@white-wolf.com... > Marc Gabriele wrote: > > On 15 Nov 2003, JH wrote: > >>Loyalist > >>Reaction, !Ventrue > >>Only usable during a referendum. Usable by a _tapped_ vampire. > >>This vampire gains 3 votes against the referendum. If the acting > >>vampire is Sabbat and the referendum fails, move up to 2 blood > >>from the acting vampire to this vampire. > > So, presumably these votes can still be canceled by the usual > > means, but can they be changed to votes in favor by, say, Kindred > > Manipulation? > > No. If the vampire's votes are changed to be in favor, those three > votes will be silenced (until the vampire's disposition is changed > back). > > The three votes can only be cast against the referendum. > > A vampire who is already voting in favor of a referendum cannot play > Loyalist to change his position to one of opposition to the referendum. I don't think I understand this ruling (except for the last part, which makes sense since 6.3.3 "Gaining Votes" says that all of the votes from each given vampire [...] must be cast in agreement as a group). If Lazverinus is calling a Political Stranglehold and another Methuselah's Emerson Bridges votes against it, Emerson has 2 votes against the referendum. Yet, Lazverinus can play Kindred Manipulation ("Only usable during a referendum. Change the votes of a younger vampire to votes of your choice.") to change Emerson's votes against to votes in favor. This overrides the usual rule that votes, once cast, are final, because Kindred Manipulation has card text saying it changes a vampire's votes. Loyalist has no text saying that the votes it grants cannot be changed in some stronger way than the usual fact that votes, once cast, can't be changed. It seems to me that its saying "gains 3 votes against the referendum" shouldn't be any more immutable a statement than "Emerson has 2 votes against the referendum". Help? Josh pretty loyal

David Cherryholmes wrote: > On 17 Nov 2003, the_capuchin wrote: > > >>Fatima al-Faqadi loved that one. >>The best DotB-counter possible; an *equipment*. It's kinda funny. > > > I would still rate Ghoul Retainer as a better answer. The Finger might > look best at first glance, but the Ghoul provides: > > A) protection against DotB > B) protection against IG > C) A 4 + 1 regular/agg package with the AR and Bow, which burns the crap > out of people for zero cards. With the Ghoul you can't maneuver to long, so you get the crap punched out of you (with Scorpion Sting, no dodging). Then you can go to torpor happy in the knowledge that all that pool you spent on equipment will be put to good use by your diablerist (who was sensible enough to carry one Skin of Rock to prevent that pesky Bow hit). :P Oh, and maneuvering to long also happens to be a good defense against IG. Flux

Joshua Duffin wrote: > Help? "X votes against" cannot be cast in favor, by inspection (else they would not be "votes against"). If the vampire must vote in favor, then the X votes against that he would be casting if he were voting against are not cast. Casting the votes against would violate the rule about splitting votes from a single source. Since the votes cannot be cast in favor (they are "votes against"), the simply aren't cast if the vampire is forced into agreement. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3FB9316B...@white-wolf.com... > Joshua Duffin wrote: > > Help? > > "X votes against" cannot be cast in favor, by inspection (else > they would not be "votes against"). They would *no longer* be votes against, no. Gaining 3 votes against doesn't have to mean that they can't be changed by other card effects; to me it seems like it only means that the playing Methuselah doesn't get the normal choice of how to cast the votes gained. I would expect unchangeable votes to have card text saying that the votes cannot be changed by other effects. I guess I'm thinking of the sentence like: This vampire [gains 3 votes] [against the referendum]. And perhaps you're thinking of it like: This vampire gains [3 votes against the referendum]. That is, to you it's an essential trait of the votes that they are against. To me, they're just votes, which the card says have to be cast (initially) against. I find it more intuitive for the votes to be changeable the same way all other votes are, obviously. :-) Josh inconstant as the northern star

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Flux wrote: > With the Ghoul you can't maneuver to long, so you get the crap punched out > of you (with Scorpion Sting, no dodging). Then you can go to torpor happy in > the knowledge that all that pool you spent on equipment will be put to good > use by your diablerist (who was sensible enough to carry one Skin of Rock to > prevent that pesky Bow hit). :P Man, this is going to turn into one of those "and then I play THIS!" conversations.... Fatima stays topped off pretty well be generally being at long, paying no blood for her combats, and lobbing out a Taste every so often to fill back up. Therefore, I will assume that getting smacked for, say, less than six is survivable. On top of that I, at least, play with some amount of damage prevention and am quite happy to play with an effective hand size of six or even five (prevent + DI) for a long, long time due to the nature of her form of combat and general restraing in rushing every time she can. Therefore, she also has a good possiblity of preventing. Lastly I, at least, also play with Elemental Stoicism, possibly rendering the poke/breath/bow/whatever problem irrelevant. And lastly, every deck's got the paper to its rock; the fact that an All Gun, All the Time archetype such as The Fatimator has potential answers to its absolute antithesis is some measure of the deck's strength. > Oh, and maneuvering to long also happens to be a good defense against IG. Which is why you generally smoke it, but every now and then Theo picks the fight and gets lucky. [ quoted text not captured ]

David Cherryholmes wrote: > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Flux wrote: > > >>With the Ghoul you can't maneuver to long, so you get the crap punched out >>of you (with Scorpion Sting, no dodging). Then you can go to torpor happy in >>the knowledge that all that pool you spent on equipment will be put to good >>use by your diablerist (who was sensible enough to carry one Skin of Rock to >>prevent that pesky Bow hit). :P > > > Man, this is going to turn into one of those "and then I play > THIS!" conversations.... Hehe... :) > Fatima stays topped off pretty well be generally being at long, paying no > blood for her combats, and lobbing out a Taste every so often to fill back > up. Therefore, I will assume that getting smacked for, say, less than six > is survivable. On top of that I, at least, play with some amount of > damage prevention and am quite happy to play with an effective hand size > of six or even five (prevent + DI) for a long, long time due to the nature > of her form of combat and general restraing in rushing every time she > can. Therefore, she also has a good possiblity of preventing. Lastly I, > at least, also play with Elemental Stoicism, possibly rendering the > poke/breath/bow/whatever problem irrelevant. > > And lastly, every deck's got the paper to its rock; the fact that an All > Gun, All the Time archetype such as The Fatimator has potential answers to > its absolute antithesis is some measure of the deck's strength. Ok, if that is your deck, then yes, I can see why you would prefer the Ghoul to the Finger. But note that in that case, you don't need the Ghoul to survive DtoB, it just limits your attack. And even then, the Finger would let you maneuver to long then Blur for 4 + 4 + 4/1 agg, a superior attack against vampires with more than 5 blood (but dodgeable). I think overall the Finger would be superior for defense, and on most cases (but not all) for offense too. Flux

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:36:27 +0000, Flux <fl...@netc.pt> scrawled: >> And lastly, every deck's got the paper to its rock; the fact that an All >> Gun, All the Time archetype such as The Fatimator has potential answers to >> its absolute antithesis is some measure of the deck's strength. > >Ok, if that is your deck, then yes, I can see why you would prefer the Ghoul >to the Finger. But note that in that case, you don't need the Ghoul to >survive DtoB, it just limits your attack. > >And even then, the Finger would let you maneuver to long then Blur for 4 + 4 >+ 4/1 agg, a superior attack against vampires with more than 5 blood (but >dodgeable). how are you going to get the +4/1 agg on your last strike? Either Fatima's striking with bow on the last strike, so it's 1 agg, or she's striking with Rifle, so it's 4. The Ghouly can only take a shot during the initial strike resolution phase. >I think overall the Finger would be superior for defense, and on most cases >(but not all) for offense too. I just think it'd be great with Succubus Club for the sole reason that you get to say "I give you the Finger". :P [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:36:27 +0000, Flux <fl...@netc.pt> scrawled: > > > >>>And lastly, every deck's got the paper to its rock; the fact that an All >>>Gun, All the Time archetype such as The Fatimator has potential answers to >>>its absolute antithesis is some measure of the deck's strength. >> >>Ok, if that is your deck, then yes, I can see why you would prefer the Ghoul >>to the Finger. But note that in that case, you don't need the Ghoul to >>survive DtoB, it just limits your attack. >> >>And even then, the Finger would let you maneuver to long then Blur for 4 + 4 >>+ 4/1 agg, a superior attack against vampires with more than 5 blood (but >>dodgeable). > > > how are you going to get the +4/1 agg on your last strike? > Either Fatima's striking with bow on the last strike, so it's 1 agg, > or she's striking with Rifle, so it's 4. > The Ghouly can only take a shot during the initial strike resolution > phase. That was meant as 4 OR 1 agg, not (4+1 agg). In that scenario there was no Ghoul involved. Flux

Gomi no Sensei wrote: > Shape Mastery > Combat/Reaction > Protean > [pro] Cancel a combat card that requires Obtenebration, Protean, or > Vicissitude as it is played (no cost is paid). The opposing minion cannot > play that card again this action. > <PRO> As above, but cancel an action modifier that requires any of those > Disciplines. Obvious question: can a player Shape Mastery a Shape Mastery? I guess logic suggests the answer would be yes, but I don't know if there's any timing issues involved that I wasn't thinking about. It seems the same as Sudden Reversing a Sudden Reverse, though, no? Fred

Joshua Duffin wrote: > I find it more intuitive for the votes to be changeable the same way all > other votes are, obviously. :-) Like anything that is restricted, it is not as free as the unrestricted version. See also "press to continue". [ quoted text not captured ]

Frederick Scott wrote: > Gomi no Sensei wrote: > >>Shape Mastery >>Combat/Reaction >>Protean >>[pro] Cancel a combat card that requires Obtenebration, Protean, or >>Vicissitude as it is played (no cost is paid). The opposing minion cannot >>play that card again this action. >><PRO> As above, but cancel an action modifier that requires any of those >>Disciplines. > > > Obvious question: can a player Shape Mastery a Shape Mastery? I guess logic > suggests the answer would be yes, but I don't know if there's any Card text suffices without having to resort to logic. :-) Assuming the first was not played as a reaction card, of course. > timing issues involved that I wasn't thinking about. It seems the same as > Sudden Reversing a Sudden Reverse, though, no? Exactly. [ quoted text not captured ]

"David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:Pine.GSO.4.21.031117...@petsparc.duhs.duke.edu... > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Flux wrote: > > > With the Ghoul you can't maneuver to long, so you get the crap punched out > > of you (with Scorpion Sting, no dodging). Then you can go to torpor happy in > > the knowledge that all that pool you spent on equipment will be put to good > > use by your diablerist (who was sensible enough to carry one Skin of Rock to > > prevent that pesky Bow hit). :P > > Man, this is going to turn into one of those "and then I play > THIS!" conversations.... > Has anyone showed up with the 20 Flash 20 Fast hands deck at your tables yet David? It seems like if they could just pick the right game, they could laugh and laugh. Oh if not for playing to win... Colin Riggs last night 4 of my magnums got destroyed through Canine Hordes, and a Hell Hound plus Meddling plus DI really screwed weenie potence rush. Weird tables I know.

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3FB91122...@white-wolf.com>... > the_capuchin wrote: > >>>Sire's Index Finger > > Fatima al-Faqadi loved that one. > > The best DotB-counter possible; an *equipment*. It's kinda funny. > > Fatima's special only retrieves weapons, not general equipment, mind you. definitely, I need to sleep.

> I think overall the Finger would be superior for defense, and on most cases > (but not all) for offense too. And it costs nothing, as far as I remember (and if the spoiler was correct). Sometimes I just can't afford the cost of the Ghoul Retainer. I never played Fatima's Assault Rifle Deck without the two copies of GR i own in it, but it's good to see there's a cheaper counter to DotB, even if not capable of providing counter-counter-attack as the GR does. Sometimes these two pool are the difference between ousting and survival in a tournament.

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3FB97AAD...@white-wolf.com... > Like anything that is restricted, it is not as free as the unrestricted > version. > > See also "press to continue". Ah, good comparison. Dead-end alley: "Press, only usable to continue combat." It would make more sense to me that the votes can't be changed if Loyalist said "gains 3 votes, only usable to vote against the referendum, and casts them against." For what it's worth. Josh got something against me

Patrick van der Reest wrote: > Path of Evil Revelations > Unique Master card (note: no cost) > > Put this card in play. During your master phase, you may burn 1 pool > to untap all infernal minions you control. Any minion may burn this > card as a (d) action; if that minion is a vampire, he or she takes one > damage (damage not preventable) when this card is burned. HEY!!! Cool. It may not be enough to make the Baali usable but it sure can't hurt anything! Fred

Joshua Duffin wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message >>See also "press to continue". > > Ah, good comparison. Dead-end alley: "Press, only usable to continue > combat." It would make more sense to me that the votes can't be changed > if Loyalist said "gains 3 votes, only usable to vote against the > referendum, and casts them against." The trade off between brevity and readability and the number of people that claim to misunderstand the effect (not to mention the time spent anticipating the claims; playtesters catch some, but it's not foolproof). > For what it's worth. Scapelli. Shotgun Ritual. Mark of Damnation. "press to continue" [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Flux wrote: > I think overall the Finger would be superior for defense, and on most cases > (but not all) for offense too. I'll go so far as to allow that it is better for defense, but I still disagree about the offensive option. The Finger doesn't allow you to burn vampires *effortlessly*. It is based upon this combination of offensive and defensive merits that I rate the Ghoul, overall, superior to the finger. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:51:39 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >Joshua Duffin wrote: >> "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message >>>See also "press to continue". >> >> Ah, good comparison. Dead-end alley: "Press, only usable to continue >> combat." It would make more sense to me that the votes can't be changed >> if Loyalist said "gains 3 votes, only usable to vote against the >> referendum, and casts them against." > >The trade off between brevity and readability and the number of people >that claim to misunderstand the effect (not to mention the time spent >anticipating the claims; playtesters catch some, but it's not foolproof). Does the vampire playing Loyalist actually have to cast them though (under the actual current text :)? >> For what it's worth. > >Scapelli. Shotgun Ritual. Mark of Damnation. >"press to continue" Frenzy, Save Face, Apportation, Mob Connections. [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:51:39 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> > scrawled: > > >>Joshua Duffin wrote: >> >>>"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message >>> >>>>See also "press to continue". >>> >>>Ah, good comparison. Dead-end alley: "Press, only usable to continue >>>combat." It would make more sense to me that the votes can't be changed >>>if Loyalist said "gains 3 votes, only usable to vote against the >>>referendum, and casts them against." >> >>The trade off between brevity and readability and the number of people >>that claim to misunderstand the effect (not to mention the time spent >>anticipating the claims; playtesters catch some, but it's not foolproof). > > Does the vampire playing Loyalist actually have to cast them though > (under the actual current text :)? Yes. A vote against is against. >>>For what it's worth. >> >>Scapelli. Shotgun Ritual. Mark of Damnation. >>"press to continue" > > Frenzy, Save Face, Apportation, Mob Connections. Without looking those up, they are either: further examples of "press to continue" or they are examples of other phrasing that do not diminish the examples I gave. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 07:47:29 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >salem wrote: >> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:51:39 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> >> scrawled: >> >> >>>Joshua Duffin wrote: >>> >>>>"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message >>>> >>>>>See also "press to continue". >>>> >>>>Ah, good comparison. Dead-end alley: "Press, only usable to continue >>>>combat." It would make more sense to me that the votes can't be changed >>>>if Loyalist said "gains 3 votes, only usable to vote against the >>>>referendum, and casts them against." >>> >>>The trade off between brevity and readability and the number of people >>>that claim to misunderstand the effect (not to mention the time spent >>>anticipating the claims; playtesters catch some, but it's not foolproof). >> >> Does the vampire playing Loyalist actually have to cast them though >> (under the actual current text :)? > >Yes. A vote against is against. as obvious as that line it, is makes it all clear to me now. weird. >>>>For what it's worth. >>> >>>Scapelli. Shotgun Ritual. Mark of Damnation. >>>"press to continue" >> >> Frenzy, Save Face, Apportation, Mob Connections. > >Without looking those up, they are either: further examples of "press >to continue" or they are examples of other phrasing that do not diminish >the examples I gave. yeah, i was supplying further cases for you, not counter examples. sorry. :) PS: I did a Save Face from torpor today. Am i allowed to do that? it doesn't say 'ready' on it.... [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: > PS: I did a Save Face from torpor today. Am i allowed to do that? it > doesn't say 'ready' on it.... Yes. Google: "Save Face torpor author:LSJ" See also Google: "Martyr torpor author:LSJ" [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:30:41 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >salem wrote: >> PS: I did a Save Face from torpor today. Am i allowed to do that? it >> doesn't say 'ready' on it.... > >Yes. > >Google: "Save Face torpor author:LSJ" I was a little bit worried that i was going to be the one that asked the question in that thread, and so i'd look extra stoopid. but i wasn't. yay! (especially seeing as the thread got a little antsy in places) [ quoted text not captured ]