Baali - how to get them working

Hi all, before I start posting a little introduction. I'm in no way new to this game. I have owned my Jyhad and Sabbath cards for years, but only recently (3 or so months ago) restarted playing the game, after a break of, say, two years. I have been playing several decks since then, ranging from Tremere second round nuke to an all Ventrue Political. I have yet to construct a real bleed deck, but that's more because me and my gaming group consider all out bleed deck boring. We'd rather fill an evening with one or two good games instead of having someone stealthbleed around the table. So far for the intro, now for my problem. We recently got our hands on a few boxes of Bloodlines. A great set, I must say, and mad fun to play with. I have already constructed a very strong Gargoyle Slave deck as well as a cute political deck revolving around the Daughthers. My current project is the Baali. Looking at their cards, they can do a LOT. They have presence for bleeding or voting, obfuscate to get things actually done and daimonion, well... that's exactly the problem. Daimonion. If I want to play Baali, I should obviously use daimonion. Sure, I can stealth bleed with combat ends, but Setites do that just as well. I was thinking to to build a deck around the various Condemnations, with the Doomed variant being the most appealing. Light intercept is not hard to come by and 3-4 doomed minions can shut a deck really down. The problem is of course that it is already hard enough to manage a single Baali to do the dirty work, let alone two Infernal minions. A Call the Great Beast fixes that problem, since the beast is not infernal, but that takes a while to get into play - if you get it in play at all. My second idea was to create insane blood management using political actions with captivation, minion tap and the fourth and fifth traditions. Politicals could give me pool as well (parity shift, mainly) and I used Banishment to remove any non-condemned minions. Surprising enough I totally swept the table with three infernal minions (one of them the Herald) on the table, thanks to really insane amount of pool gain each turn. The problem was in this case, that it turned out to play like my old Ventrue political deck with a few extra tricks. It was nowhere near a real Baali-centered deck, which is what I want. Then I tried Sargon/Enticement along with presence bleed with the occasional corruption counter (through Corruption) to make Sense the Sin a cheap +2 bleed card. I played mainly Presence and Obfuscate though and the Daimonion cards were constantly clogging my hand because I just couldn't afford a second Baali. Setites really don't excel in gaining me pool. Reducing the number of Daimonion cards only made the deck boring, since it only became more and more a simple stealth bleeder. The deck was also VERY combo dependant (Soul gem + Khobar Towers + Minion Tap etc) Then I looked into their combat cards. Though Conflagration is a great card, their other combat card, Fear from the Void below is a total crap card for a non-combat discipline. It might work with guns, but you really don't want to fight with Baali anyway. So, after my long thoughs on my different Baali decks, I wonder if anyone here has an idea how to get a Baali deck working. Some restrictions on what I have; I have plenty of all the Baali cards, including the rares. That shouldn't be a deck restriction. The rest is more a problem. I own mainly cards from the original Jyhad set. I hardly have Sabbat or cards from the independant clans. I have some Setites, and I can get my hands on a few more Serpentis based cards if need be. Finally our group uses a 6 card limit, a 12 card limit for the Crypt and a 100 card limit for the library. Ideas are very welcome. I'm currently breaking my head on the Baali/Ventrue thing again. It can be either Obf/Pre/Dai in which case I will toss in a few Obfuscate masters and 3 or so Changeling Skin Masks, OR Pre/Dai/For, reducing my need for S:CE cards, but making my Baali very vulnerable, unless I can somehow give them fortitude fast enough. Or Leather Jackets... Help?

"Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> escribió en el mensaje news:84a43beb.03061...@posting.google.com... [...] > My current project is the Baali. > > Looking at their cards, they can do a LOT. They have presence for > bleeding or voting, obfuscate to get things actually done and > daimonion, well... that's exactly the problem. Daimonion. If I want to > play Baali, I should obviously use daimonion. Sure, I can stealth > bleed with combat ends, but Setites do that just as well. Yep. But Daimoinon is not the only difference between the Setites and the Baali. In addition to infernalism and their special abilities, the Baali have access to cards requiring Baali to play (Call the Great Beast, D'habi Revenant, or Herald of Topheth), which are very powerful indeed. > I was thinking to to build a deck around the various Condemnations, > with the Doomed variant being the most appealing. Light intercept is > not hard to come by and 3-4 doomed minions can shut a deck really > down. The problem is of course that it is already hard enough to > manage a single Baali to do the dirty work, let alone two Infernal > minions. But you needn't have more than one Baali in play. I think it's a mistake to build decks based on more than 2 Baali, because the resources it would require to handle the pool loss due to infernalism would reduce your offensive power considerably, and therefore would make your deck useless. > A Call the Great Beast fixes that problem, since the beast is > not infernal, but that takes a while to get into play - if you get it > in play at all. No. That does not fix that problem, since the Great Beast IS infernal: Name: Call the Great Beast [BL:R1] Cardtype: Action Clan: Baali Cost: 1 blood +1 stealth action. Put this card on the acting Baali and put X ritual counters on it, where X is the capacity of this Baali. This Baali may put a ritual counter on this card as a +1 stealth action. When this card has more than 10 ritual counters, burn this Baali and choose three Disciplines; this card becomes a unique clanless independent infernal vampire with 9 capacity, 4 strength and 3 bleed. The Great Beast has the chosen three Disciplines at superior. Move 9 blood to him from the blood bank. The Great Beast can enter combat with any ready minion controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action and can prevent 1 damage each combat. > My second idea was to create insane blood management using political > actions with captivation, minion tap and the fourth and fifth > traditions. Politicals could give me pool as well (parity shift, > mainly) and I used Banishment to remove any non-condemned minions. That would imply the use of non-Baali princes or justicars, as I guess you are suggesting. I once built a political deck based on Arika, Giotto Verducci and Heralds of Topheth, using cards such as Charming Lobby, Banishment, Protect Thine Own, Kine Resources Contested, Awe, Voter Captivation, Minion Tap, etc... It won a few games, although it had no other defense against combat than a Secure Haven, because there was no room in the deck for it. > Surprising enough I totally swept the table with three infernal > minions (one of them the Herald) on the table, Well, the Heralds of Topheth are not actually infernal minions. > thanks to really insane > amount of pool gain each turn. The problem was in this case, that it > turned out to play like my old Ventrue political deck with a few extra > tricks. It was nowhere near a real Baali-centered deck, which is what > I want. You are following the right path >:-) > Then I tried Sargon/Enticement along with presence bleed with the > occasional corruption counter (through Corruption) to make Sense the > Sin a cheap +2 bleed card. I played mainly Presence and Obfuscate > though and the Daimonion cards were constantly clogging my hand > because I just couldn't afford a second Baali. Setites really don't > excel in gaining me pool. Reducing the number of Daimonion cards only > made the deck boring, since it only became more and more a simple > stealth bleeder. The deck was also VERY combo dependant (Soul gem + > Khobar Towers + Minion Tap etc) When combining Setites with Baali, you just need to put in play one Baali (either High Priest Angra Mainyu or Sargon). Have your Setites play Temptations on your own Baali so that he can untap more than once during your minion phase and take several actions per turn. I have a deck called "The Followers of Angra Mainyu", focused on Condemnation: Betrayed (for both library destruction and blood reduction purposes) and Condemnation: Doomed, which also has several Enticement, Temptations, Form of Corruption, and lots of Blood Dolls, to deplet my vampires so that they are easier to Tempt, and to gain lots of pool per turn. Hesha Ruhadze is a good add to that deck. > Then I looked into their combat cards. Though Conflagration is a great > card, their other combat card, Fear from the Void below is a total > crap card for a non-combat discipline. It might work with guns, but > you really don't want to fight with Baali anyway. You might want to >:-) And if so, you'd better combat out-of-turn, by using the following cards: Concordance (which grants them Flight and +1 strength), High Ground (which it's Flight effect set range at long during that round of combat), Conflagration and, when necessary, Rötschreck. [...] > I have plenty of all the Baali cards, including the rares. That > shouldn't be a deck restriction. The rest is more a problem. I own > mainly cards from the original Jyhad set. I hardly have Sabbat or > cards from the independant clans. I have some Setites, and I can get > my hands on a few more Serpentis based cards if need be. Finally our > group uses a 6 card limit, a 12 card limit for the Crypt and a 100 > card limit for the library. Those card limits should not be a problem. Don't play with lots of Baali, and don't even try to bring them all out. Try to take advantage of the only Baali you put in play, having him take as many actions as possible per turn (via Freak Drive, Precognizant Mobility, Temptation, Blessing of the Name, etc.) > Ideas are very welcome. I'm currently breaking my head on the > Baali/Ventrue thing again. It can be either Obf/Pre/Dai in which case > I will toss in a few Obfuscate masters and 3 or so Changeling Skin > Masks, OR Pre/Dai/For, reducing my need for S:CE cards, but making my > Baali very vulnerable, unless I can somehow give them fortitude fast > enough. Or Leather Jackets... I would not include skill cards to make your Baali fit in a Ventrue deck. I'd rather use the Baali sharing the more disciplines with the Ventrue (i.e, Giotto Verducci). But, what is your Baali supposed to do in your Ventrue deck? Recruiting Heralds of Topheth?, playing Condemnations (any)? That will depend on your deck's strategy. Note that there are several Ventrue with Obfuscate (Arika, Lucinde, Queen Anne, Mascus Vitel, Catherine DuBois, and... Suhailah :-P ) Greetings, Damnans

"Damnans" <bel...@ono.com> wrote in message news:<LYFFa.21761$FN3.1...@news.ono.com>... > "Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> escribió en el mensaje > news:84a43beb.03061...@posting.google.com... > > [...] > > > My current project is the Baali. > > > > Looking at their cards, they can do a LOT. They have presence for > > bleeding or voting, obfuscate to get things actually done and > > daimonion, well... that's exactly the problem. Daimonion. If I want to > > play Baali, I should obviously use daimonion. Sure, I can stealth > > bleed with combat ends, but Setites do that just as well. > > Yep. But Daimoinon is not the only difference between the Setites > and the Baali. In addition to infernalism and their special abilities, the > Baali have access to cards requiring Baali to play (Call the Great Beast, > D'habi Revenant, or Herald of Topheth), which are very powerful indeed. I realize that, but if I want a stealth bleeder that's based on Obf and Pre, I'd rather play an all Setite deck. Why do something with Baali that Setites can do better? > > I was thinking to to build a deck around the various Condemnations, > > with the Doomed variant being the most appealing. Light intercept is > > not hard to come by and 3-4 doomed minions can shut a deck really > > down. The problem is of course that it is already hard enough to > > manage a single Baali to do the dirty work, let alone two Infernal > > minions. > But you needn't have more than one Baali in play. I think it's a mistake > to build decks based on more than 2 Baali, because the resources > it would require to handle the pool loss due to infernalism would > reduce your offensive power considerably, and therefore would make > your deck useless. My problem was, that with one Baali in play, I either had a hand full of Daimonion cards that I had no REAL use for, or that (with a reduced amount of Daimonion cards) I didn't draw any of them to make that Baali worth the 1 pool per turn. > > A Call the Great Beast fixes that problem, since the beast is > > not infernal, but that takes a while to get into play - if you get it > > in play at all. > > No. That does not fix that problem, since the Great Beast IS infernal: > [snip call the great beast card text] Ack. I missed the word infernal there. Okay, that fixes nothing... > > My second idea was to create insane blood management using political > > actions with captivation, minion tap and the fourth and fifth > > traditions. Politicals could give me pool as well (parity shift, > > mainly) and I used Banishment to remove any non-condemned minions. > > That would imply the use of non-Baali princes or justicars, as I guess > you are suggesting. Yeah. Since I own quite a bit of power cards for a good Ventrue Deck and I just love to play them, I used the three Ventrue Princes from the base set (Emerson, Walter Nash and Timothy) along with some presence weenies. > I once built a political deck based on Arika, Giotto Verducci and > Heralds of Topheth, using cards such as Charming Lobby, Banishment, > Protect Thine Own, Kine Resources Contested, Awe, > Voter Captivation, Minion Tap, etc... It won a few games, although it had > no other defense against combat than a Secure Haven, because there > was no room in the deck for it. > > > Surprising enough I totally swept the table with three infernal > > minions (one of them the Herald) on the table, > > Well, the Heralds of Topheth are not actually infernal minions. True enough, but it feels the same in your pool. I think they can't be called infernal from a fluff point of view since they're not vampires, but the game mechanics intend them to be infernal. Oh well, it doesn't matter. > > thanks to really insane > > amount of pool gain each turn. The problem was in this case, that it > > turned out to play like my old Ventrue political deck with a few extra > > tricks. It was nowhere near a real Baali-centered deck, which is what > > I want. > > You are following the right path >:-) :o Baali and right path in one sentence strikes to me as quite odd... > > Then I tried Sargon/Enticement along with presence bleed with the > > occasional corruption counter (through Corruption) to make Sense the > > Sin a cheap +2 bleed card. I played mainly Presence and Obfuscate > > though and the Daimonion cards were constantly clogging my hand > > because I just couldn't afford a second Baali. Setites really don't > > excel in gaining me pool. Reducing the number of Daimonion cards only > > made the deck boring, since it only became more and more a simple > > stealth bleeder. The deck was also VERY combo dependant (Soul gem + > > Khobar Towers + Minion Tap etc) > > When combining Setites with Baali, you just need to put in play one Baali > (either High Priest Angra Mainyu or Sargon). Have your Setites play > Temptations on your own Baali so that he can untap more than once during > your minion phase and take several actions per turn. I read that trick before. Unless Temptation got heavily changed, that means I can take an extra action each 6 turns, assuming I play it on Giotto, which is IMO the best Baali vampire. That is, unless you minion tap it dry, but that makes him FAR too vulnerable to any sort of combat, since Majesty and Catatonic Fear both cost him one blood too. [snip deck "The Followers of Angra Mainyu"] > > Then I looked into their combat cards. Though Conflagration is a great > > card, their other combat card, Fear from the Void below is a total > > crap card for a non-combat discipline. It might work with guns, but > > you really don't want to fight with Baali anyway. > > You might want to >:-) And if so, you'd better combat out-of-turn, > by using the following cards: Concordance (which grants them Flight > and +1 strength), High Ground (which it's Flight effect set range at > long during that round of combat), Conflagration and, when necessary, > Rötschreck. The problem with Concordance is that it requires you yet another action to get it onto the minion. That, plus +1 strength isn't all that hot if you intend to fight at long range anyhow. Plus I don't have any CE cards, so that rules out the High Ground. On another note: how does Rotschrek REALLY work? I have read like 5 interpretations of it now. The same, by the way, goes for the ever debatable Tomb of Rameses III. Could you answer those two while you're at it? [snip deck build restrictions] > Don't play with lots of Baali, and don't even try to bring them all out. > Try to take advantage of the only Baali you put in play, having him > take as many actions as possible per turn (via Freak Drive, > Precognizant Mobility, Temptation, Blessing of the Name, etc.) > > > Ideas are very welcome. I'm currently breaking my head on the > > Baali/Ventrue thing again. It can be either Obf/Pre/Dai in which case > > I will toss in a few Obfuscate masters and 3 or so Changeling Skin > > Masks, OR Pre/Dai/For, reducing my need for S:CE cards, but making my > > Baali very vulnerable, unless I can somehow give them fortitude fast > > enough. Or Leather Jackets... > > I would not include skill cards to make your Baali fit in a Ventrue deck. > I'd rather use the Baali sharing the more disciplines with the Ventrue (i.e, > Giotto Verducci). Giotto is a nobrainer since he has for so I can Freak Drive him. It's a shame he misses PRE since untapping after being blocked (through Majesty) would be quite helpful for him. I'm more and more leaning towards a four discipline deck with (for/pre/dai) with a little obfuscate support for those critical actions. > But, what is your Baali supposed to do in your Ventrue deck? > Recruiting Heralds of Topheth?, playing Condemnations (any)? That will > depend on your deck's strategy. Note that there are several Ventrue with > Obfuscate (Arika, Lucinde, Queen Anne, Mascus Vitel, Catherine DuBois, > and... Suhailah :-P ) Note that two of those are promo cards, none of which I possess and two other are from the CE. I don't have cards from that set, like I mentioned before. Although Arika and the Queen are QUITE expensive, I might include two Arika's and a Queen in my crypt. A tomb of Rameses might be helpful, as well as Information Highways. I have decided what to do with my deck. It's gonna be Baali/Ventrue and I just REALLY want to use the condamnations. So the task of the Baali (I guess it will be Giotto) will be getting those condemnations on the table. I was thinking 5 doomed and 5 betrayed, or maybe 4 of each, would suit a 100 card deck. Freak Drive is an obvious choice of course. I'm gonna need majesties for combat defense, I only have to think how much. Or maybe fortitude defense is a better idea... or a mix of them. Secure Haven helps a lot, but costs 2 pool and a master slot. With C:Doomed I will want to block a lot. 2nd tradition comes to mind - if I can guarantee a prince on the table. On the other hand, I will HAVE to since I will be using the 4th tradition along with Enchant Kindred to influence my other vampires on the table and the fifth tradition for blood management. Along with Restorations of course. That way I can probably Blood doll/minion tap enough to manage that Baali and maybe even a Herald, who would in turn open up the way for Banishment, as he can drain a vampire really fast. Of course I need a way to kill someone. Sense the Sin is a good choice IMO, since the Herald can play it too, as well as maybe a few of them Bleed retainers. I probably will just do base bleeds, as both Queen Anne and Arika have bonus bleed anyway. Finally I need some non-combat defense, mainly against those annoying locations. Disputed Territory comes to mind as it is also handy to be able to steal a Hunting Ground or something like it, but Arson might be helpful too since I can almost guarantee success with just a little Obfuscate. Pfffttt... that's a lot to do for a deck. I'll think up a crypt first. What ya think, 4 Giottos enough to semi-guarantee him on the initial draw? Or should I play 5? Or 4 and one other Baali? I will surely include Queen Anne and Arika, but I'm still thinking about the other ones. Gideon maybe? Probably Walter Nash and Timothy too since I just NEED one or two princes on the table. I'll post an initial deck idea when I have thought up one. Thanks for your help, Phoenix

[...] > > > > Yep. But Daimoinon is not the only difference between the Setites > > and the Baali. In addition to infernalism and their special abilities, the > > Baali have access to cards requiring Baali to play (Call the Great Beast, > > D'habi Revenant, or Herald of Topheth), which are very powerful indeed. > > I realize that, but if I want a stealth bleeder that's based on Obf > and Pre, I'd rather play an all Setite deck. Why do something with > Baali that Setites can do better? That's not the point. The point is that you can improve your Setite stealth & bleed deck with one Baali. Maybe Sargon or Giotto or Angra... Sargon could play Contagion or get the edge to Entice twice a turn (for instance). [...] > > My problem was, that with one Baali in play, I either had a hand full > of Daimonion cards that I had no REAL use for, or that (with a reduced > amount of Daimonion cards) I didn't draw any of them to make that > Baali worth the 1 pool per turn. Then, reduce that amount of Daimoinon card accordingly, and make sure the Baali can play most of the cards your other non-Baali in play can. [...] > > When combining Setites with Baali, you just need to put in play one Baali > > (either High Priest Angra Mainyu or Sargon). Have your Setites play > > Temptations on your own Baali so that he can untap more than once during > > your minion phase and take several actions per turn. > > I read that trick before. Unless Temptation got heavily changed, that > means I can take an extra action each 6 turns, assuming I play it on > Giotto, which is IMO the best Baali vampire. That is, unless you > minion tap it dry, but that makes him FAR too vulnerable to any sort > of combat, since Majesty and Catatonic Fear both cost him one blood > too. I use both Minion Tap and Blood Dolls to reduce Angra's blood to 1 as soon as possible. He might be vulnerable, but the other Setites could attempt to defend him. Besides, I also play with Secure Haven. [...] > > > > You might want to >:-) And if so, you'd better combat out-of-turn, > > by using the following cards: Concordance (which grants them Flight > > and +1 strength), High Ground (which it's Flight effect set range at > > long during that round of combat), Conflagration and, when necessary, > > Rötschreck. > > The problem with Concordance is that it requires you yet another > action to get it onto the minion. That, plus +1 strength isn't all > that hot if you intend to fight at long range anyhow. Plus I don't > have any CE cards, so that rules out the High Ground. It's a pity :-( But, did you notice that Concordance also turns any aggravated damage into normal damage?. > > On another note: how does Rotschrek REALLY work? I have read like 5 > interpretations of it now. Well, the card text already explains what it does: Name: Rötschreck [Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG] Cardtype: Master Master: out-of-turn Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is tapped and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap as normal. During this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card. Any more question about Rötschreck? > The same, by the way, goes for the ever > debatable Tomb of Rameses III. Could you answer those two while you're > at it? Name: Tomb of Rameses III [AH:R2, SW:R, FN:PA] Cardtype: Master Cost: 3 pool Master: unique location. When this card is played or the controller of this card changes, the controller chooses a vampire in his or her uncontrolled region. For each blood counter you transfer to the chosen vampire during your influence phase, move one counter from the blood bank to the Tomb. At the end of your influence phase, if the total number of counters on the chosen vampire and on the Tomb equals or exceeds that vampire's capacity, you may move the vampire to the ready region. Burn this card (and the counters on it) when this vampire leaves the uncontrolled region. [...] > > But, what is your Baali supposed to do in your Ventrue deck? > > Recruiting Heralds of Topheth?, playing Condemnations (any)? That will > > depend on your deck's strategy. Note that there are several Ventrue with > > Obfuscate (Arika, Lucinde, Queen Anne, Mascus Vitel, Catherine DuBois, > > and... Suhailah :-P ) > > Note that two of those are promo cards, Just Marcus Vitel. > none of which I possess and > two other are from the CE. I don't have cards from that set, like I > mentioned before. Although Arika and the Queen are QUITE expensive, I > might include two Arika's and a Queen in my crypt. A tomb of Rameses > might be helpful, as well as Information Highways. Sure ;-) Or Zillah's Valley. > > I have decided what to do with my deck. It's gonna be Baali/Ventrue > and I just REALLY want to use the condamnations. So the task of the > Baali (I guess it will be Giotto) will be getting those condemnations > on the table. I was thinking 5 doomed and 5 betrayed, or maybe 4 of > each, would suit a 100 card deck. Freak Drive is an obvious choice of > course. I'm gonna need majesties for combat defense, I only have to > think how much. Or maybe fortitude defense is a better idea... or a > mix of them. Let me know when you come up with something ;-) > Secure Haven helps a lot, but costs 2 pool and a master > slot. No. Secure Haven costs 1 pool, and is mandatory in that deck :-) [...] Greetings, Damnans

BTW, with that D'habi Revenent stacking deck, what do you do if your prey plays Protected Resources? =P Halcyan 2

[very large snip] > I read that trick before. Unless Temptation got heavily changed, that > means I can take an extra action each 6 turns, assuming I play it on > Giotto, which is IMO the best Baali vampire. That is, unless you > minion tap it dry, but that makes him FAR too vulnerable to any sort > of combat, since Majesty and Catatonic Fear both cost him one blood > too. I was told this trick doesn't work anymore, but I haven't made sure it doesn't myself. Check the latest erratas and LSJ's comments maybe. > Giotto is a nobrainer since he has for so I can Freak Drive him. Only if you succesfully complete your actions with him. > > But, what is your Baali supposed to do in your Ventrue deck? > > Recruiting Heralds of Topheth?, playing Condemnations (any)? That will > > depend on your deck's strategy. Note that there are several Ventrue with > > Obfuscate (Arika, Lucinde, Queen Anne, Mascus Vitel, Catherine DuBois, > > and... Suhailah :-P ) And if you are after "obf/pre" and voting, maybe considerthe following: Synesios (PRE/obf,2votes), Amisa (OBF,pre,2 votes, Klaus Van Der Veken (PRE,obf, 2 votes), Francois Villon (obf,PRE,2 votes,great special,+1 bleed),Nehsi(OBF,PRE,2 votes,nice special) and ofcaurse Sutekh the Dark God (PRE,OBF, 2 votes,+1bleed) > I was thinking 5 doomed and 5 betrayed, or maybe 4 of > each, would suit a 100 card deck. 100 card decks are not normally tournament legal. Guess you know that, but just in case. > With C:Doomed I will want to block a lot. 2nd tradition comes to mind > - if I can guarantee a prince on the table. Personally I prefer permanent intercept. Locations. Equipment. Specials. > On the other hand, I will > HAVE to since I will be using the 4th tradition along with Enchant > Kindred to influence my other vampires on the table and the fifth > tradition for blood management. You know that 5:th tradition "sucks" now compared to the old one? Only gives you 4 blood and you can't do it on the acting minion. > Pfffttt... that's a lot to do for a deck. I'll think up a crypt first. > What ya think, 4 Giottos enough to semi-guarantee him on the initial > draw? Or should I play 5? Or 4 and one other Baali? 4 in the crypt gives you something like >95% chance of having "atleast one" of that card in the initial draw. /Fredrik Ljungberg

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20030611215336...@mb-m27.aol.com>... > BTW, with that D'habi Revenent stacking deck, what do you do if your prey plays > Protected Resources? =P Curse him from the pits of hell, of course. Tobias Deventer

Halcyan 2 wrote: > > BTW, with that D'habi Revenent stacking deck, what do you do if your prey plays > Protected Resources? =P Well, my task is to avoid that to happen via Revelations at inferior :-) But should that happen, bad luck :P Greetings, Damnans

Fredrik Ljungberg wrote: >>I read that trick before. Unless Temptation got heavily changed, that >>means I can take an extra action each 6 turns, assuming I play it on >>Giotto, which is IMO the best Baali vampire. That is, unless you >>minion tap it dry, but that makes him FAR too vulnerable to any sort >>of combat, since Majesty and Catatonic Fear both cost him one blood >>too. > > I was told this trick doesn't work anymore, but I haven't made sure it > doesn't myself. Check the latest erratas and LSJ's comments maybe. The "trick" still works the same as always. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On 12 Jun 2003 00:12:20 -0700, Fredrik Ljungberg wrote: > [very large snip] > >> I read that trick before. Unless Temptation got heavily changed, that >> means I can take an extra action each 6 turns, assuming I play it on >> Giotto, which is IMO the best Baali vampire. That is, unless you >> minion tap it dry, but that makes him FAR too vulnerable to any sort >> of combat, since Majesty and Catatonic Fear both cost him one blood >> too. > > I was told this trick doesn't work anymore, but I haven't made sure it > doesn't myself. Check the latest erratas and LSJ's comments maybe. It still costs you an action and a blood to put the Temptation down.

[I snipped a LOT here] > I use both Minion Tap and Blood Dolls to reduce Angra's blood to 1 > as soon as possible. > > He might be vulnerable, but the other Setites could attempt to defend > him. Besides, I also play with Secure Haven. Secure Haven with one blood and Temptation might work. I'll give that a try some time. Your Setites defending him is not really realistic, as Intercept is quite hard to come by with their disciplines. [snip concordance] > It's a pity :-( But, did you notice that Concordance also turns > any aggravated damage into normal damage?. Yeah I know. I think of it more a a defensive card because of that. It makes blocking a vampire with concordance a lot less tempting, with two hand damage and the inability to do aggravated damage to it. Then again, I'd rather just throw combat ends with some extra damage (catatonic fear) then cathing a sewer lid, or a turned-into-normal aggravated 2R strike. > > On another note: how does Rotschrek REALLY work? I have read like 5 > > interpretations of it now. > > Well, the card text already explains what it does: > > Name: Rötschreck > [Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG] > Cardtype: Master > Master: out-of-turn > Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict > aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be > successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is tapped > and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap as normal. During > this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card. > > Any more question about Rötschreck? Yes. As I read this, it's only use it to prevent your minion from being burned by aggravated damage. Forgive if I'm wrong, but the old card (and the only version have) says: Name: Rötschreck [Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG] Cardtype: Master Master: out-of-turn Play when a vampire attempts to use aggravated damage against a vampire, whether succesfully or not. Combat ends before damage is resolved. That vampire[I suppose they mean the one trying to do aggravated damage]is put in torpor, tapped ....... and the rest is the same. We play this card a a self-defense mechanism, putting it in line with other master out of turn cards, like Direct Intervention and Sudden Reversal. Oh, so you want to do some aggravated damage to me. Eat this [plays Rötschreck]. Why would you want to include it in your deck anyway? It's a pretty useless card as we play it, but I can't find a use for the seemingly official version. > > The same, by the way, goes for the ever > > debatable Tomb of Rameses III. Could you answer those two while you're > > at it? > > Name: Tomb of Rameses III > [AH:R2, SW:R, FN:PA] > Cardtype: Master > Cost: 3 pool > Master: unique location. > When this card is played or the controller of this card changes, the > controller chooses a vampire in his or her uncontrolled region. For > each blood counter you transfer to the chosen vampire during your > influence phase, move one counter from the blood bank to the Tomb. > At the end of your influence phase, if the total number of counters > on the chosen vampire and on the Tomb equals or exceeds that > vampire's capacity, you may move the vampire to the ready region. > Burn this card (and the counters on it) when this vampire leaves the > uncontrolled region. So if I read this right you pay a whopping THREE pool to speed up influencing a vampire (basically winning only ONE turn no matter the capacity) at the cost of influencing it on the table without all it's blood counters. Wow, from powercard nerfed into oblivion. It was a way more useful card when it also worked when you influenced to other vampires. At least then there was a reason to use it. The card DOES cost 3 pool you know... > > > But, what is your Baali supposed to do in your Ventrue deck? > > > Recruiting Heralds of Topheth?, playing Condemnations (any)? That will > > > depend on your deck's strategy. Note that there are several Ventrue with > > > Obfuscate (Arika, Lucinde, Queen Anne, Mascus Vitel, Catherine DuBois, > > > and... Suhailah :-P ) > > > > Note that two of those are promo cards, > > Just Marcus Vitel. Sorry... [...] [...] > Let me know when you come up with something ;-) I came up with soemthing. I posted in a seperate post. Phoenix

> Only if you succesfully complete your actions with him. I know, but with obfuscate around on him too, this shouldn't be much of a problem now should it? > And if you are after "obf/pre" and voting, maybe considerthe > following: > > Synesios (PRE/obf,2votes), Amisa (OBF,pre,2 votes, Klaus Van Der Veken > (PRE,obf, 2 votes), Francois Villon (obf,PRE,2 votes,great special,+1 > bleed),Nehsi(OBF,PRE,2 votes,nice special) and ofcaurse Sutekh the > Dark God (PRE,OBF, 2 votes,+1bleed) I had Francois in my mind indeed as he's just totally evil, but most of these guys are BIG. Very big. I was thinking Queen Anne too, but she's capacity 10 too, and I think Arika is just a better choice as her special must be the most annoying thing out there. > > I was thinking 5 doomed and 5 betrayed, or maybe 4 of > > each, would suit a 100 card deck. > > 100 card decks are not normally tournament legal. Guess you know that, > but just in case. I know, but usually play with six guys on the table and 40+6*10 = 100. See? For convenience sake we have agreed on a 100 card limit. > You know that 5:th tradition "sucks" now compared to the old one? > Only gives you 4 blood and you can't do it on the acting minion. It's still a disciplineless, targeted restoration so it's still a good card. Yes I know that the old version was way better, but that one was broken. I'll try and post up a first draft today.

On 12 Jun 2003 05:49:17 -0700, izaak.h...@o2.nl (Phoenix) wrote: >> Well, the card text already explains what it does: >> Name: Rötschreck >> [Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG] >> Cardtype: Master >> Master: out-of-turn >> Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict >> aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be >> successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is tapped >> and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap as normal. During >> this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card. >> Any more question about Rötschreck? >Yes. As I read this, it's only use it to prevent your minion from >being burned by aggravated damage. Nope. Rotschreck is "fear". Basilia is never afraid of her hands (her hand damage is aggravated). Basilia will never have anyone else play Rotschreck on her unless they are doing aggravated damage TO HER. Forgive if I'm wrong, but the old card (and the only version have) says: >Name: Rötschreck >[Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG] >Cardtype: Master >Master: out-of-turn >Play when a vampire The jyhad copy says MINION here, where you have typed vampire. This is the source of your confusion. >attempts to use aggravated damage against a >vampire, whether succesfully or not. Combat ends before damage is >resolved. That vampire[I suppose they mean the one trying to do >aggravated damage]is put in torpor, tapped Nope. The one doing the damage is refered to as a Minion. There is only 1 vampire refered to on the card, that is the vampire receiving the aggravated damage. >....... and the rest is the >same. >We play this card a a self-defense mechanism, putting it in line with >other master out of turn cards, like Direct Intervention and Sudden >Reversal. Oh, so you want to do some aggravated damage to me. Eat this > [plays Rötschreck]. The card sends the vampire receiving the aggravated damage to torpor. It can be used defensively, ie if the aggravated damage would have burned your vampire, they will keep their blood and only be in torpor instead of being burned. >Why would you want to include it in your deck anyway? To get around defenses for aggravated damage. Your opponent is playing with Combat Ends strike cards? Play your aggravated damage strike, and use Rotschreck to send them to torpor anyway. Your opponent is playing with lots of damage prevention? Play your aggravated damage strike, and use Rotschreck to send them to torpor anyway. >It's a pretty useless card as we play it, Yep. >but I can't find a use for the seemingly >official version. Try harder. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

So far I have though up this: Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 18, Max: 38, Avg: 7,0) ---------------------------------------------- 1 Arika FOR PRE DOM OBF cel aus 11, Ventrue 2 Queen Anne FOR PRE DOM obf aus 10, Ventrue 1 Sir Walter Nash FOR PRE DOM 7, Ventrue 1 Timothy Crowly FOR PRE dom ani 7, Ventrue 4 Giotto Verducci DAI OBF pre pot for 7, Baali 1 Jazz Wensworth PRE for dom 5, Ventrue 1 Gideon Fontaine PRE 3, Ventrue 1 Roland Loussarian pre for 3, Ventrue Library: (100 cards) ------------------- Master (18 cards) 4 Blood Doll 4 Minion Tap 3 Sudden Reversal 2 Uptown Hunting Ground 2 Tomb of Rameses III 1 Anarch Troublemaker 1 Fragment of the Book of Nod 1 Slave Auction Action (22 cards) 6 The Fifth Tradition: Hospitality 4 The Fourth Tradition: The Accounting 4 Enchant Kindred 4 Condemnation: Doomed 4 Condemnation: Betrayed Reaction (8 cards) 4 The Second Tradition: Domain 4 Wake with Evening's Freshness Action Modifier (20 cards) 6 Freak Drive 6 Lost in Crowds 4 Faceless Night 4 The Kiss of Ra Equipment (2 cards) 2 Palatial Estates Allies and Retainers (3 cards) 3 Herald of Topheth Combo Cards (4 cards) 4 Sense the Sin Political cards (9 cards) 4 Banishment 2 Parity Shift 2 Kindred Restructure 1 Ancient Influence Combat (14 cards) 6 Majesty 4 Catatonic Fear 4 Skin of Steel The obvious problem is that this deck wants to do TOO much. I need to cut on SOMETHING, but I seriously have no clue where and how. I also have the feeling I can't kill anyone very fast with it, although it does have quite some staying power if you ask me. Draining minions and then banishing them and finishing with the inherent bleed bonuses of Anne and Arika might work. Even counting the C:Doomed cards, I still lack intercept. I was thinking to exchange the two estates for Sport bikes, but on the other hand, if I have a heavy stealth predator, I can always use Kindred Restructure. Maybe I need a third copy instead of the lonely Ancient Influence. Maybe there's too much blood management. Looking at how many vampires I can influence with 4th tradition and enchant kindred, combined with a healthy amount of minion sucking, I might get my whole crypt out in a long game. Not good either. Suggestions are welcome, as is critisism (sp?). Just don't rebuild the whole deck. The general idea is condamnations with political backup. I'll play this deck in it's current form tomorrow and let you know the results. [UPDATE] I'm writing this after reading the new posts in this thread and Fredrik Ljungberg pointed both Francois Villon and Klaus van der Veken out to me. Both these vampires make *great* additions to this deck obviously and my new plan is to toss out all the Fortitude cards (except maybe Freak Drive) and some of the traditions (mostly the 5th). Villon's special is a very good substitute for a few 5th traditions and will help tremendously with draining vampires of blood so I can banish them effectively. Villon might very well be the key to get this deck working. Thanks man. Maybe this will leave me some room for more presence bleed cards, but I will see. On the other hand, with the inclusion of 2 Toreador princes I will have far more use for Sense the Sin since I now have 4 vampires in my crypt with Auspex (Arika and Anne have it too), so I might up their number to six. I will probably also exchange the 2nd trads for more permanent intercept. It hurts me though, since I really *LOVE* that card. [END OF UPDATE] Phoenix

> izaak.h...@o2.nl (Phoenix) wrote in message > Looking at their cards, they can do a LOT. They have presence for > bleeding or voting, obfuscate to get things actually done and > daimonion, well... that's exactly the problem. Daimonion. If I want to > play Baali, I should obviously use daimonion. Sure, I can stealth > bleed with combat ends, but Setites do that just as well. I built a Baali bleed deck that took me a lot of games to tune it. The crypt is 75% Baali and 25% Setite. Basically i bring to play 2 Baali (7- or 8-cap) and 1 Setite with superior presence. It is very important to bleed sucessfully EVERY turn with Social Charm (or some Legal Manipulations) to fill up your pool. This requires the Baali to have superior presence, which not all of the ones with "playable capacities" have. That's why is important to have the Setite with superior presence, to better compensate while one of your Baali has inferior presence. The atittude during the game is to explain from the beggining to all players in table that you MUST bleed at least for 1 point so you can't be ousted easily by your predator. Where does Daimoinon enter here? Conflagration for combat offense/defence and Sense the Sin for bleed increase and +1 intercept. Usually i use 8 of each in my deck. The Conflagrations make people think twice before they annoy you. It's just like Breath of the Dragon in a Tzimice deck. You can have 2 Rotschreck available to increase its effectiveness. Use Swallowed by the Night to maneuver if required. This isn't the perfect deck and it doesn't deflect big bleeds... the option is to replace the setite with one with dominate for example and add some Deflections. "Haven Uncovered" rush decks can be also very dangerous especially if they can prevent aggravated damage. Other strategies i leave to my spanish friend Ginés 'Damnans', my tutor in Baali decks! ;) Regards, .- Luis Duarte (Portugal)

> > Secure Haven helps a lot, but costs 2 pool and a master > > slot. > > No. Secure Haven costs 1 pool, and is mandatory in that deck :-) > > [...] Just an "innocent" question upon your self-tempted baali. How is it supposed to be to put the several temptations on your vamp while he lives in a secure haven? Are temptations played on yourself considered undirected actions? > > Greetings, > Damnans > >

On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:00:14 +0200, "Smiling Tom, The Anarch" <t...@almadrava.net> wrote: >Just an "innocent" question upon your self-tempted baali. How is it supposed >to be to put the several temptations on your vamp while he lives in a secure >haven? Are temptations played on yourself considered undirected actions? Any action that targets someone else's cards, pool or vampires is directed. Any action that targets your own cards is not directed at someone else, thus it is not a directed action. You may play Fifth Tradition or Temptation on your own vampire in a Secure Haven without difficulty. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Yes. In that case, Temptations become undirected actions, only blockable by your predator or prey. According to the V:TES Official Clarifications, Rulings, and Errata: Directed actions: An action you take directed at yourself (or something you control) is an undirected action, even if the action is marked with a (D) symbol. [RTR 19980707] http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulings.html Greetings, Damnans

>Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 18, Max: 38, Avg: 7,0) >---------------------------------------------- >1 Arika FOR PRE DOM OBF cel aus 11, Ventrue >2 Queen Anne FOR PRE DOM obf aus 10, Ventrue >1 Sir Walter Nash FOR PRE DOM 7, Ventrue >1 Timothy Crowly FOR PRE dom ani 7, Ventrue >4 Giotto Verducci DAI OBF pre pot for 7, Baali >1 Jazz Wensworth PRE for dom 5, Ventrue >1 Gideon Fontaine PRE 3, Ventrue >1 Roland Loussarian pre for 3, Ventrue > > >Library: (100 cards) >------------------- >Master (18 cards) >4 Blood Doll >4 Minion Tap >3 Sudden Reversal >2 Uptown Hunting Ground I'd replace one. All sorts of possibilities such as an intercept location, but if you want another Ventrue master, there's Ventrue Headquarters, Paragon, Hostile Takeover. >2 Tomb of Rameses III My general rule to acceleration - Info Highway goes in first, Tomb goes in never. Another rule I use is: Dreams counts for acceleration in addition to any other use. >1 Anarch Troublemaker I can see reasons for this, but is it really a better choice than, say, Giant's Blood? >1 Fragment of the Book of Nod Either you get Giotto out and don't care or The Barrens is better. Could be an Effective Management to help get whoever you need out. >1 Slave Auction Bah. With all of the 5ths, I'd rather just have another Tap. >Action (22 cards) >6 The Fifth Tradition: Hospitality >4 The Fourth Tradition: The Accounting If you want to kill faster, replace with Governs. Chances of playing superior Govern are only slightly lower. >4 Enchant Kindred >4 Condemnation: Doomed >4 Condemnation: Betrayed > >Reaction (8 cards) >4 The Second Tradition: Domain >4 Wake with Evening's Freshness Deflection? >Action Modifier (20 cards) >6 Freak Drive >6 Lost in Crowds >4 Faceless Night >4 The Kiss of Ra Dead draws if there's enough Fortitude running around or you can't pay the 3. In the absence of knowledge about your metagame, I'd cut half. >Equipment (2 cards) >2 Palatial Estates I'm not even sure why one is important. Two? >Allies and Retainers (3 cards) >3 Herald of Topheth Doesn't fit your mission statement. Way too much maintenance. Not playing much that works with them - Potence, Flight, etc. >Combo Cards (4 cards) >4 Sense the Sin > >Political cards (9 cards) >4 Banishment >2 Parity Shift >2 Kindred Restructure >1 Ancient Influence > >Combat (14 cards) >6 Majesty >4 Catatonic Fear Chance of hurting someone is low even including synergy with Banishment, I'd rather have Staredown for free combat ends or more Majestys for untappy goodness. >4 Skin of Steel I'd still run at least one Conflagration. I think it's become the main reason I'd build a Baali deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> escribió en el mensaje news:84a43beb.03061...@posting.google.com... [...] > > > > On another note: how does Rotschrek REALLY work? I have read like 5 > > > interpretations of it now. > > > > Well, the card text already explains what it does: > > > > Name: Rötschreck > > [Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG] > > Cardtype: Master > > Master: out-of-turn > > Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict > > aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be > > successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is tapped > > and sent to torpor. This vampire does not untap as normal. During > > this vampire's next untap phase, burn this card. > > > > Any more question about Rötschreck? > > Yes. As I read this, it's only use it to prevent your minion from > being burned by aggravated damage. Forgive if I'm wrong, but the old > card (and the only version have) says: Old card text also had the same effect. And Rötschreck affects the vampire on whom the opposing minion is attempting to inflict aggravated damage. It does not affect the minion attempting to inflict aggravated damage. For example: Arika attempts to call a Protect Thine Own Gabrin plays Cat's Guidance at superior to get +1 intercept and successfully blocks Arika. During combat Arika announces a Majesty at superior as her strike. And Gabrin announces a Song in the Dark (2 aggravated damage) as his strike. Gabrin's controller plays Rötschreck to end combat and send Arika to torpor after combat. [...] Greetings, Damnans

"Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> escribió en el mensaje news:84a43beb.03061...@posting.google.com... > So far I have though up this: [...] > Library: (100 cards) > ------------------- > Master (18 cards) I think you have too many master cards in your deck, since V:TES games last for 10-15 turns, and you can play just one master card per turn. Adding The Parthenon could be counterproductive, since it costs 2 pool, and you must spare as much pool as possible. > 4 Blood Doll > 4 Minion Tap > 3 Sudden Reversal > 2 Uptown Hunting Ground I prefer not to add several copies of hunting grounds. So I suggest that you drop 1 copy of the UHG. > 2 Tomb of Rameses III Information Highways are better than the Tomb. > 1 Anarch Troublemaker > 1 Fragment of the Book of Nod > 1 Slave Auction I would remove the 3 cards above. Why Anarch Troublemaker? Giotto Verducci is much better than the Fragment. Gaining pool via Slave Auction costs you a master phase action. [...] Regarding the rest of your deck, I agree with Curevei on his suggestions. Greetings, Damnans

To all who made suggestions to the deck, thanks for now. As I mentioned in my deck update, Fredrik got it right. I want pre/obf with political support. Villon and Klaus are just the princes I need. Villon is going to be key as he should be able to replace most of the 5th trad cards. I will stick with 4th tradition and Enchant Kindred. Although with Ventrue you can indeed also play Governs, I don't think the deck has enough superior Dominate, although I will probably use Arika/Queen Anne and Walter Nash and all of them have superior Dom plus you can bleed pretty good with it. Deflection then also becomes an option, but I think I will have to play more dominate vamps then or just with a really large average vampire size, which might be workable with enough Govern, Enchant and 4th Trad. I might play 3/3 or 4/4 intead of 6 4th trads. I'm still in doubt on Freak Drive. Yes I will always have Giotto on the table, who has indeed a great cycling ability too so I will always have use for it (Freak Drive). I'll throw out Tomb, as it is a totally useless card now that I know the correct rules and toss in 3, maybe 4 copies of Information Highway. I'm not sure if I really need it. I will have a big vamp on the table in round 3 usually all the time and a second little less big guy after one round more with help from blood management cards. Aaaah decisions decisions.... I will stick with the Condamnation/Political/Heralds idea to actually be able to oust someone. I am however in doubt on the other vamps. Should I fill the crypt with obf/pre Setite weenies or with just PRE and OBF weenies from the Ventrue, Malks and Nosferatu. Maybe even the Baali High Priest in case I get my blood management going, or just before ousting someone, so I can get out more condemnations faster. The idea with Palatial Estates is that you can use it with a Blood Doll for one free pool per turn. The same goes for the HG, but I will most likely totally remove that from the deck. The second traditions will probably leave too and be replaced by more permanent intercept, although the untapping effect is a nice bonus. I will need more politicals too and I'm still in doubt on Voter Caps and Bewitching. I won't likely need bewitching, but it's an extra four blood for voter caps, which is quite a bonus in conjunction with minion tap. I wondered if a few guns was a good idea since I need SOMETHING to survive combat with. If I'm gonna play C:Doomed (which I *will* play, just because I want the deck to play them) I will want to block a lot. If all I can do is Majesty out or be punished for my blocking actions, I'm in trouble. Besides, Toreador with guns always scare people off. Just in case I might have Blur in my deck (which I won't have, but hey, how can they know)? Pfft. This is more complicated than I had thought at first sight. Getting something out of those Baali *and* maintaining good blood management to support them is not easy.... Tomorrow for a second draft. Give me feedback on those ideas please, especially regarding the Crypt. It's one AM here now, so time to go to sleep. Got to go working again tomorrow. Phoenix

>Subject: Re: Baali - how to get them working >From: The Lasombra TheLa...@hotmail.com >Date: 6/12/03 10:05 AM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <7i5hevoa6rkaqplmc...@4ax.com> [ quoted text not captured ] By the way, speaking of that, can someone please remind me what happens if the directedness of a minion changes? A. During my turn, using Madness Network my prey attempts to perform an action targeting another of his vampires with a Secure Haven (but since he controls the vamp, it's undirected). However, I have a Temptation on that vampire and during the action, I burn all of the counters to take control of that vampire. Since I now control the vampire, the action is now directed. Does this cause the action to immediately fail (since the vampire is now not affected by the action)? And similarly, would other effects based on actions directed at that vampire suddenly trigger in such a situation (i.e. Moncada, Highway Haven, etc.)? B. Also, can you remind me on what happens when the Methusaleh who the action is directed against changes (but not the actual target)? During my minion phase, Methusaleh B directs an action using Madness Network at Smudge controlled by Methusaleh C. Methusaleh C declines to block. I burn my Temptation counters to gain control of Smudge (so now the action is directed at me). Do I now have a chance to block? Does it matter whether or not I had officially declined to block previously? C. Similarly situation as above. But now, during my minion phase, Methusaleh B uses Madness Network to direct an action at Methusaleh C's Smudge and Methusaleh C attempts to block. What happens if I take control of Smudge now? Does the combat occur? Or is it canceled since the block would no longer be legal? Thanks! Halcyan 2

Halcyan 2 wrote: > By the way, speaking of that, can someone please remind me what happens if the > directedness of a minion changes? You mean "directedness of an action changes", yes? > A. During my turn, using Madness Network my prey attempts to perform an action > targeting another of his vampires with a Secure Haven (but since he controls > the vamp, it's undirected). However, I have a Temptation on that vampire and > during the action, I burn all of the counters to take control of that vampire. > Since I now control the vampire, the action is now directed. Does this cause > the action to immediately fail (since the vampire is now not affected by the > action)? It fizzles, yes. [LSJ 25-JUL-2002] http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D3FE40B.8B58C24C%40white-wolf.com > And similarly, would other effects based on actions directed at that > vampire suddenly trigger in such a situation (i.e. Moncada, Highway Haven, > etc.)? If the action is no longer valid (the actor is prohibited from taking the action or the target isn't a valid target for the action or whatever), then it fizzles. > B. Also, can you remind me on what happens when the Methusaleh who the action > is directed against changes (but not the actual target)? During my minion > phase, Methusaleh B directs an action using Madness Network at Smudge > controlled by Methusaleh C. Methusaleh C declines to block. I burn my > Temptation counters to gain control of Smudge (so now the action is directed at > me). Do I now have a chance to block? Does it matter whether or not I had > officially declined to block previously? There's a new round of "who may block" in this case as well, since the target Methuselah has changed. (New ruling) > C. Similarly situation as above. But now, during my minion phase, Methusaleh B > uses Madness Network to direct an action at Methusaleh C's Smudge and > Methusaleh C attempts to block. What happens if I take control of Smudge now? > Does the combat occur? Or is it canceled since the block would no longer be > legal? The latter. There is no combat (in Smudge's case) without a successful block. If you wait until the block succeeds, however, off to combat he goes. [ quoted text not captured ]

I played with my first draft yesterday and to my surprise, I actually managed a VP, just before I got ousted by my (original) grandpredator who had three War ghouls in play by then. I noticed a few things while I was playing, so I modified that. 1) Traditions were clogging my hand, vene with Giotto ready. Admitted, I often forget his ability. 2) Too much Stealth. 3) Not enough political cards to call the deck political, which was the idea. So, what did I change? Well, first of all I removed most of the Fortitude, and added some Dominate instead. The guns are there to add a little bite to the deck and it helps in ridding vampires of blood before I banish them. I overhauled my crypt, which now includes Villon and Klaus van der Veken. Both are good voters plus they have awesome specials AND they have PRE/obf. Furthermore I made sure I had enough DOM/dom vamps to make the dominate worthwhile and I out an accent on the political part with bribes and voter caps. I was writing a whole lot more, but the dumb Google preview decided to clear my whole message, so I'm sure I forgot half of it. Anyway, let me know what you think. I personally think it's forward momentum has gotten better with 4 Parity shifts and some more bleed, in exchange for blood management, of which I had too much anyway in the previous version. By the way, if I get a Camarilla Exemplary on Giotto, do vampires have to pay *2* blood to make a block attempt? Am I also correct in that it's the ATTEMPT that costs them blood? So if they try, they burn blood and I can throw stealth to make it fail anyway. Correct? Deck Name: Demonic Politics Created By: Phoenix Description: Influende out a big vampire with PRE or DOM first and use that one to Govern/Enchant the other into play. If you play it right you can have 2 big guys in play after the third turn and a third one after the fourth turn. Use Condemnations carefully on both predator and prey and use Heralds and Villon to drain vampires of blood before you banish them. Keep influencing out big vampires as you should be able to with Governs, Enchant kindred and a LOT of blood from political actions. Finish of your prey with the inherent bleed bonuses of your vampires, pre/dom bleed actions and of course Sense the Sin. Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 21, Max: 40, Avg: 7,42) 4 Giotto Verducci DAI for OBF pot pre 7, Baali 1 Klaus van der Veken aus CEL obf PRE tha 9, Toreador, Prince 1 Queen Anne aus DOM FOR obf PRE 10, Ventrue, Prince 1 Arika aus cel DOM FOR OBF PRE 11, Ventrue, IC 1 Jazz Wentworth dom for PRE 5, Ventrue 1 Violette Prentiss dom PRE 4, Ventrue 1 Ranjan Rishi DOM for PRE 5, Ventrue 1 Sir Walter Nash DOM FOR PRE 7, Ventrue, Prince 1 Francois Villon AUS CEL chi obf pot PRE 10, Toreador, Prince Library: (100 cards) Master (16 cards) 4 Blood Doll 2 Information Highway 1 KRCG News Radio 4 Minion Tap 1 Society of Leopold 1 Sudden Reversal 1 Uptown Hunting Ground 2 Ventrue Headquarters Action (21 cards) 4 Condemnation: Betrayed 4 Condemnation: Doomed 4 Enchant Kindred 3 Fifth Tradition: Hospitality, The 2 Fourth Tradition: The Accounting, The 4 Govern the Unaligned Action Modifier (20 cards) 2 Bribes 4 Faceless Night 6 Freak Drive 4 Lost in Crowds 4 Voter Captivation Political Action (14 cards) 2 Anathema 1 Ancient Influence 4 Banishment 2 Camarilla Exemplary 2 Disputed Territory 2 Parity Shift 1 Political Stranglehold Reaction (8 cards) 4 Deflection 4 Wake with Evening's Freshness Combat (10 cards) 4 Catatonic Fear 6 Majesty Ally (3 cards) 3 Herald of Topheth Equipment (4 cards) 2 .44 Magnum 2 Sport Bike Combo (4 cards) 4 Sense the Sin

> By the way, if I get a Camarilla Exemplary on Giotto, do vampires have > to pay *2* blood to make a block attempt? Am I also correct in that > it's the ATTEMPT that costs them blood? So if they try, they burn > blood and I can throw stealth to make it fail anyway. Correct? A vampire MUST be camarilla to be target of camarilla exemplary vote. So you ought to play either writ of acceptance or that pesky trifle (out of the frying pan) to turn giotto camarilla first. But the answer is yes, if you manage to play CamExemp on giotto, vampires trying to block him must burn 2 blood for attempting to block. But keep in mind that if a minion attempts to block without the needed amount of blood he can block anyway, with no blood, but it can. Camarilla Exemplary [Jyhad:C, VTES:C, CE:C/PV2] Cardtype: Political Action Political Card - Worth 1 Vote. Called by any Camarilla vampire at +1 stealth. Choose a Camarilla vampire. Successful referendum means that for the remainder of the game, any vampire attempting to block that vampire burns 1 blood.

> Camarilla Exemplary [Jyhad:C, VTES:C, CE:C/PV2] > Cardtype: Political Action > Political Card - Worth 1 Vote. Called by any Camarilla vampire at +1 > stealth. > Choose a Camarilla vampire. Successful referendum means that for the > remainder of the game, any vampire attempting to block that vampire burns 1 > blood. I found that out while I was looking for any confirmation. I only have Jyhad (or VTES maybe) copies which say "put this card on a vampire". After posting this, I realized it didn't make much sense, Camarilla Exemplary on a Baali. I suppose I exchange one of 'em for an Archon as it's always good fun to play on one of your guys (or on somebody else's guy ^^) and for for a Dramatic Upheaval or something. I'll see into it. Anybody else got some comments left for my new Baali? It's still awaiting its first game...

"Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> wrote in message news:<bco5f3$c52$1...@reader11.wxs.nl>... [ quoted text not captured ] Well, if you want to use Villon, you could even throw Giotto away and go to: Francois Mary the Black Rake Volker Sargon (with Depravity of course) I had a deck that used those vamps, using Parity Shift to counter the terrible pool loss caused by the Heralds. Of course it had a healthy dose of violence, in form of cel/pot/dai combat. Admittedly it was not the most effective deck but fun to play with. -Antero

On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 00:00:16 +0200, "Smiling Tom, The Anarch" <t...@almadrava.net> scrawled: >> By the way, if I get a Camarilla Exemplary on Giotto, do vampires have >> to pay *2* blood to make a block attempt? Am I also correct in that >> it's the ATTEMPT that costs them blood? So if they try, they burn >> blood and I can throw stealth to make it fail anyway. Correct? > >A vampire MUST be camarilla to be target of camarilla exemplary vote. So you >ought to play either writ of acceptance or that pesky trifle (out of the >frying pan) the trfle only turns a sabbat to camarilla. you'd need to use the other trifle to get him sabbat first.... > to turn giotto camarilla first. But the answer is yes, if you >manage to play CamExemp on giotto, vampires trying to block him must burn 2 >blood for attempting to block. But keep in mind that if a minion attempts to >block without the needed amount of blood he can block anyway, with no blood, >but it can. they actually need to have the blood for giotto's ability. giotto uses "burn blood to do X" template, which means they must have a blood to burn to do it. if giotto is a camarilla exemplary as well, then would-be blockers could still attempt to block if they had 1 blood (burn one blood to attempt to block, then burn one blood for the attempt (cam exemp), which is a side effect, which they can ignore) if they had two blood when they attempted to block they'd burn both if giotto is a cam exemp. >Camarilla Exemplary [Jyhad:C, VTES:C, CE:C/PV2] >Cardtype: Political Action >Political Card - Worth 1 Vote. Called by any Camarilla vampire at +1 >stealth. >Choose a Camarilla vampire. Successful referendum means that for the >remainder of the game, any vampire attempting to block that vampire burns 1 >blood. note that this effect applies to the vampire even if it leaves the camarilla after gaining the ability. also, the card never goes on the vampire, so is in the ash heap for echo of harmonies, necromancy tricks, etc. salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm