Are you allowed to inspect cards removed from the game?

During a casual game someone used Paul Cordwood's special ability (remove the top card of your crypt to get +1 stealth/intercept). Later on, in an attempt to figure out if it was worthwhile to get someone into uncontrolled region using transfers during the influence phase, the person looked at the crypt cards removed from play also stating that it is allowed. Is it? I suppose this has been answered, but I used the search function and only found this old post from LSJ: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/577055f0953db3b2?hl=en& Where it is stated that: "Remove the card from the game. That card can no longer affect or be affected by anything in the game." Looking at the removed cards affects the game. There are other situations besides the example where it might be useful to look the cards removed from the game (like trying to remember how many deflections one has left in a deck after Ambrogino Giovanni ADV's special has been used and 21 cards have been removed from the game etc.). Interpreting tightly I'd suppose that looking at the cards removed from the game is'nt allowed - as the player is part of the game as a Methuselah. But what if someone took notes about removed cards (like the ones removed by Ambrogino ADV's special)? They may affect the game indirectly... but, according to the tournament rules, you're allowed to take notes... So, I'm also interested in definition of the "the game" as a metaphysical concept or entity interacting with the (perceived and/or physical) reality. Or maybe not :P Heikki P.

hp wrote: > During a casual game someone used Paul Cordwood's special ability > (remove the top card of your crypt to get +1 stealth/intercept). Later > on, in an attempt to figure out if it was worthwhile to get someone > into uncontrolled region using transfers during the influence phase, > the person looked at the crypt cards removed from play also stating > that it is allowed. Is it? Sure. > > I suppose this has been answered, but I used the search function and > only found this old post from LSJ: > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/577055f0953db3b2?hl=en& > > Where it is stated that: > "Remove the card from the game. That card can no longer affect or be > affected > by anything in the game." > > Looking at the removed cards affects the game. How? How does looking change game state? > There are other > situations besides the example where it might be useful to look the > cards removed from the game (like trying to remember how many > deflections one has left in a deck after Ambrogino Giovanni ADV's > special has been used and 21 cards have been removed from the game > etc.). > > Interpreting tightly I'd suppose that looking at the cards removed > from the game is'nt allowed - as the player is part of the game as a > Methuselah. That's not tightly, that's loosely. Interpreting tightly indicates that the game state, at worst, doesn't care one way or the other. The player is free to consult rulings archived on the Internet (out of the game), go to the bathroom (out of the game), and look at card which are out of the game. And probably it isn't the worst case of the preceding paragraph; information about what has been removed from the game is public information. > But what if someone took notes about removed cards (like > the ones removed by Ambrogino ADV's special)? Just as one can consult one's notes (which were always out of the game), it seems likely that one can consult the physical instances of cards which are out of the game. > They may affect the game > indirectly... but, according to the tournament rules, you're allowed > to take notes... So, I'm also interested in definition of the "the > game" as a metaphysical concept or entity interacting with the > (perceived and/or physical) reality. Or maybe not :P Not sure where you're going with that definition, but if it is intended to include notes, then it probably includes cards as well.

On May 12, 3:22 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > > Looking at the removed cards affects the game. > > How? > > How does looking change game state? Looking at removed cards may affect people's decisions, which in turn may affect the game state. Looking at removed cards also takes little time. Nothing spectacular IMO, but anyway. As such, it does'nt affect the game state. But I was'nt using the term "game state". > > Interpreting tightly I'd suppose that looking at the cards removed > > from the game is'nt allowed - as the player is part of the game as a > > Methuselah. > > That's not tightly, that's loosely. > > Interpreting tightly indicates that the game state, at worst, doesn't care one > way or the other. The player is free to consult rulings archived on the Internet > (out of the game), go to the bathroom (out of the game), and look at card which > are out of the game. > > And probably it isn't the worst case of the preceding paragraph; information > about what has been removed from the game is public information. Allrighty-dighty. > > They may affect the game > > indirectly... but, according to the tournament rules, you're allowed > > to take notes... So, I'm also interested in definition of the "the > > game" as a metaphysical concept or entity interacting with the > > (perceived and/or physical) reality. Or maybe not :P > > Not sure where you're going with that definition, but if it is intended to > include notes, then it probably includes cards as well. I'm not going anywhere. Probably I had a conceptual short circuit :P My usage of the word "game" included things outside the context of the "game state" (as well as the game state - which lead to certain vagueness in thinking...). This might also had lead me defining the same interpretation which you said is loose as tight. Thanks for the reply, Heikki P.

> How does looking change game state? I have a ready Arika. I have three vamps left in crypt. I have one removed vampire. I know that these four vampires are three Arika and one Sir Walther. I don't wanna buy a new when the removed is Sir Walther. / R

BobbyDoc schrieb: [ quoted text not captured ] Only if you are smart. Or you might to pull of a Parity Shift. I think LSJ wants to say that looking at the removed cards influence players decisions and not the game state *directly*. And there is a bunch of out-of-game informations influencing those decision anyway, so looking at those cards is just as legal as remembering that a vampire with DOM could bleed you for 6 any time ;-) Johannes

[ quoted text not captured ] 7 -- - Gregory Stuart Pettigrew