Pre-Release Impressions (SPOILERS)

1) The Barons precon destroyed Gangs and Gangrel. 2) The Gangrel precon sucked ass, in large part due to an average minion size of 8ish compared to a much, much smaller average minion size for the other decks, and a paucity of non-Stanislava bleed options. 3) There were some bizarre design decisions in evidence, like no natively anarchic vampires (barring merged versions) and Group 1 advanced vampires. 4) Lots of interesting new vehicle tech. 5) The library options were somewhat lackluster compared to the crypt options -- some of the new vampires are very intriguing. It's possible the true q00lness of the library cards will be explored in depth later. And now, spoilers! Jeremiah Noble Brujah Antitribu 6 CEL obt POT pre Sabbat Lisa Noble Caitiff 1 ani Camarilla: Lisa gets -1 strength on the first round of combat. Dr. Allan Woodstock Gangrel 5 ani aus for PRO Independent Horrock Gangrel 6 ANI PRO vic Independent: Protean cards cost Horrock 1 less blood to play. Scarlet Carson O'Toole Gangrel Antitribu 4 CEL pro Sabbat Clarissa Steinburgen Nosferatu 3 ani obf Camarilla Smallpox Griet Nosferatu Antitribu 9 ANI CEL OBF POT thn Sabbat: If Smallpox successfully inflicts hand damage in consecutive rounds of a combat, the opponent gets a pox counter. A minion with any pox counters takes 1 damage during his or her untap phase. Burn all pox counters when Smallpox leaves the ready region. Christopher Houghton Toreador 10 AUS CEL DOM pot PRE PRO Camarilla: Once each combat, Christopher may burn 1 blood before range is determined to get first strike that round. During your untap, choose a ready minion. Until your next untap, he gets +2 intercept to block that minion. Paragon Master Ventrue Unique Master: Put this card on a ready Ventrue who was moved into your ready region during your last influence phase. This vampire gets 1 additional vote in referendums called by younger vampires. A younger vampire who successfully blocks this vampire burns 1 blood (before combat begins, if any). Fee Stake: Boston (+1 vote on referenda called by this vampire if it is [!]Toreador) Fee Stake: New York (as above, but for [!]Brujah) Fee Stake: Seattle (as above, but for [!]Gangrel) Cry Wolf Ally Unique werewolf with 3 life, 2 strength, 0 bleed. Requires a ready anarch. If the action to recruit this ally is blocked, the acting anarch goes to torpor. This werewolf must enter combat with any minion controlled by another Methuselah as a (D) action. He gets one optional press each combat. This werewolf does not untap as normal during your untap phase. If he is tapped during your untap phase, burn him. [Cry Wolf is the second funniest card I saw at the pre-release] Fiendish Tongue Action Requires a Sabbat vampire. (D) Bleed at +1 bleed. Anarch vampires get -1 intercept when attempting to block this action. If this acting vampire is Tzimisce, and the bleed is successful (for 1 or more), this Tzimisce may burn 1 blood to untap during your discard phase this turn. Ghouled Action Modifier 1 blood Only usable when the action to recruit a mortal ally is announced. If this action is successful, put this card on that ally and add 1 additional life to the ally from the blood bank. This ally is considered a ghoul and not a mortal. Once each combat, this ally can play a strike card that requires basic potence as a vampire. Delivery Truck Equipment Vehicle. During your master phase, you may show a non-location equipment card from your hand to the other players and place it face down on the Delivery Truck if it doesn't already have one. You may look at the card at any time. Any minion you control who meets the requirements of playing that card may equip the card as a +1 stealth action (pay cost to equip as normal), turning the card face up if successful. A minion may have only one vehicle. Unlicensed Taxicab Equipment Vehicle. The action to equip with this vehicle as at an additional +1 stealth. The minion with this vehicle gets +1 stealth when hunting, employing a retainer, or recruiting an ally. If this minion is blocked by a prince or an archbishop (during any action), burn this vehicle. A minion may have only one vehicle. Dummy Corporation Master: Unique Location. Put this card into play. You may burn this card when you are being bled to reduce the bleed amount by 2. Into the Fire Master. Trifle. Choose a ready non-Sabbat vampire you control. That vampire becomes Sabbat. (His or her clan is not affected.) Out of the Frying Pan Master. Trifle. Choose a ready Sabbat vampire you control. That vampire becomes Camarilla. (His or her clan is not affected.) Reins of Power Political Card - Worth 1 vote. Called by any vampire at +1 stealth. Successful referendum means each Methuselay may choose a ready vampire he or she controls. Each Methuselah gains 6 pool. Each Methuselah also burns an amount of pool equal to the capacity of his or her predator's chosen vampire. Only one Reins of Power can be played in a game. Snipe Hunt Political Card - Worth 1 vote. Called by any vampire at +1 stealth. If this referendum is successful, put this card in play and tap all vampires with a capacity less than 4. Vampires with a capacity less than 4 do not untap as normal during the untap phase. Burn this card during your next master phase. [Snipe Hunt is the funniest card I saw all day. "Go on, look for it, it's out there somewhere..." I laffed.] Elder Michaelis' Hold Reaction 1 blood Tap this reacting vampire. Give this card to the controller of the acting minion and move an action modifier from that Methuselah's ash heap to this card. The chosen action modifier costs that Methuselah's vampires an additional blood. That Methuselah may burn this card by discarding a copy of the chosen action modifier card during his or her discard phase. A Methuselah can have only 1 Elder Michaelis' Hold. gomi -- Individually, I love you all with affection unspeakable; but, collectively, I look upon you with a disgust that amounts to absolute detestation. - Gilbert and Sullivan, 'Pirates of Penzance'

go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote in message news:<ba7a8e$ai6$1...@panix2.panix.com>... > 1) The Barons precon destroyed Gangs and Gangrel. > 2) The Gangrel precon sucked ass, in large part due to an average > minion size of 8ish compared to a much, much smaller average minion > size for the other decks, and a paucity of non-Stanislava bleed > options. Interesting. The Sydney pre-release saw comments that the Gangrel deck was overpowered when compared to the other two decks. We finished with an all Gangrel final (which I...incidentally... won :). As for average minion size, well, what about the draft? I played an average crypt of less than six, and even that was far from as small as you could manage (if you got a good draft). I would be nice to know what format you played in. We played in a fifteen player event with each player using an entire starter and drafting four boosters. Contesting wasn't really much of an issue (that I saw), but it did occur. I found that, by talking to the table prior to trabsferring, I was able to avoid contesting all day (well, I deliberately contested in the final, but that's a different story). > 3) There were some bizarre design decisions in evidence, like no > natively anarchic vampires (barring merged versions) and Group 1 > advanced vampires. Group one advanced vampires seems to be just as normal as group one or two advanced vampires. > 4) Lots of interesting new vehicle tech. Agreed. Quite a bit of focus shifting towards equipment in the new set. Playing Gangrel, I didn't have much use for it in the pre. but already have ideas for decks. > 5) The library options were somewhat lackluster compared to the crypt > options -- some of the new vampires are very intriguing. It's possible > the true q00lness of the library cards will be explored in depth later. I was slightly diassapointed with the Gangrel deck, only because of my inability to utilise the new cards, but some of the cards I saw during the day were quite intersting. As for the vamps, well, I thought they were pretty damn cool. As a whole, I thought the new set was the best I have seen since Sabbat War. Lots of interesting deck possibiltes and great new mechanics... much better than bloodlines. Also great, a friend has received two boxes as a preorder and got alomst the entire set from them (two cards off)...much better than Camarilla. > > And now, spoilers! <snip spoilers> Well, being a prince, I don't think I had better post any spoilers (you might notice that I kept my comments to a minimum as well). White-Wolf might frown on that kind of thing. -Scrote

>As for average minion size, well, what about the draft? I played an >average crypt of less than six, and even that was far from as small as >you could manage (if you got a good draft). What draft? It doesn't make any sense to me to have a prerelease draft. A good draft is one in which everyone knows what all of the cards do before they have to make choices so they can choose quickly and make good choices. And, I wouldn't want to see rare drafting, fights over cards for decks, etc. >I would be nice to know what format you played in. We played in a >fifteen player event with each player using an entire starter and >drafting four boosters. Contesting wasn't really much of an issue >(that I saw), but it did occur. I found that, by talking to the table >prior to trabsferring, I was able to avoid contesting all day (well, I >deliberately contested in the final, but that's a different story). Sealed - precon + four boosters. No contesting of vampires. So, of course format is going to affect results, but it still stands that Barons have far more ousting ability at a cost of having nonexistent combat. Neither is a good thing.

mud...@hotmail.com (scrote) wrote: > Interesting. The Sydney pre-release saw comments that the Gangrel deck > was overpowered when compared to the other two decks. We finished with > an all Gangrel final (which I...incidentally... won :). How could the Gangrel deck not do well in Sydney? It has the good karma of Lord Ashton being in it. :) > Also great, a friend has received two boxes as a preorder and got > alomst the entire set from them (two cards off)...much better than > Camarilla. If we're talking about Branson, he has the entire set now by trading... completed it one day before the official release. Damn impressive. I was able to trade him one of the cards he needed - Elder Michaelis' Hold - because out of the five boosters that I've opened so far, I've got -four- of the suckers. It's an R2 - what are the odds? (and both !Gangrel - yay!) james o'rance http://www.geocities.com/dragon-dreamer/vampire

Gomi no Sensei wrote: > 1) The Barons precon destroyed Gangs and Gangrel. > 2) The Gangrel precon sucked ass Here in Nice, the winner deck was a seemingly unstoppable Gangrel killing machine, which just ignored all the new cards, that's right, pure old tech. Barons decks were pretty good apparently, as there was three of them in the final. Head-to-head with the Gangrels, the Barons died miserably (at least mine did, it happened to me in the first round and in the final). -- Francois THE CAFETERIA DEEP FRYER IS NOT A TOY Bart Simpson on chalkboard in episode 9F22

Gomi no Sensei wrote: > 1) The Barons precon destroyed Gangs and Gangrel. How a Barons precon didn't get destroyed by either the Gangs or Gangrel deck in your release is beyond me. I recall it having only 2 Majesty, 1 Dodge and 1 Fast Hands for combat(?). Considering the both Gangs and Gangrel had access to intercept (Raven Spy, Cat's Guidance, Anarch Free Press, The Mole) and both had capable combat, I had no choice but to go forward with every minion every turn and not even bother blocking. I just got to the point where if I was going to lose a guy, he might as well be going forward to try to get my 1 VP. Even with the cards from the boosters, with no stealth for your votes or Go Anarch actions and no combat to keep your vamps alive, it as simply outclassed by the blocking and combat-strong Gangs and Gangrels. This is a concensus from the whole of our group. Ayone else experience this? I must also note that every round was played so that each table had a Gangs, Gangrel and Barons deck so we avoided contestation. > 2) The Gangrel precon sucked ass, in large part due to an average > minion size of 8ish compared to a much, much smaller average minion > size for the other decks, and a paucity of non-Stanislava bleed > options. It may have sucked ass but overall, our group found it the most capable of all the decks. Very toolbox with Bleed, Stealth, a Hunting Ground, Intercept, a crypt with a good grouping of disciplines, Blood Dolls, and votes even. If you were able to draft well, you also got lots of the new Gangrel. Not shaby at all. > 3) There were some bizarre design decisions in evidence, like no > natively anarchic vampires (barring merged versions) and Group 1 > advanced vampires. What we were most upset about was the fact that Pug Jackson was put in the Gangs deck. I mean, If you build a gangs deck, need anarchs to play your cards (the 3 ways, etc) , why would you include a vamp that can't become an anarch because he is a primogen? That just didn't make any sense. > 4) Lots of interesting new vehicle tech. This we liked also. Car Bomb is no longer complete deckfiller with all the vehicles you can have. Mark Allen Prince of Ottawa

On 18 May 2003 02:46:38 -0400, go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) scrawled: >1) The Barons precon destroyed Gangs and Gangrel. At the canberra pre-release, the final was 2 gangs and 3 gangrel. no barons at all. Gangs won the day. At the queanbeyan pre-release the following day, the final was 2 barons, 2 gangrel and a gangs. Barons won the day (me! :) >2) The Gangrel precon sucked ass, in large part due to an average > minion size of 8ish compared to a much, much smaller average minion > size for the other decks, and a paucity of non-Stanislava bleed > options. however, a simple stanislava with a laptop and backways/earth control/form of mist made the gangrel the scariest bleeders of the events. The Mole can't be used against her at cel intercept as she has Celerity, and can't be used at dom cancel bleed because she's not younger than anyone. >3) There were some bizarre design decisions in evidence, like no > natively anarchic vampires (barring merged versions) and Group 1 > advanced vampires. i liked the idea that you had to turn your vampires into anarchs. made it feel like a growing movement kind of thing, which non-anarchs need to put in it's place before it gets out of control.... >4) Lots of interesting new vehicle tech. yeah! i like unlicensed taxicab the best, i think. closely followed by Stolen police cruiser. >5) The library options were somewhat lackluster compared to the crypt > options -- some of the new vampires are very intriguing. It's possible > the true q00lness of the library cards will be explored in depth later. huh? Billions of library options. well, lots at least. >And now, spoilers! where's Redline? :) salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

Mark Allen <alle...@rogers.com> wrote in message news:<LHVxa.236321$kYH....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>... > Gomi no Sensei wrote: > > > 1) The Barons precon destroyed Gangs and Gangrel. > > How a Barons precon didn't get destroyed by either the Gangs or Gangrel deck > in your release is beyond me. This is exactly what I thought when i got handed a barons deck to play with. Until I learned that there were only few rush cards in those decks (although some players on the day managed to go up to a respectable rush capacity, but I forget how, unless it was a bluff. :) We played full starter + 4 booster draft, BTW. > I recall it having only 2 Majesty, 1 Dodge > and 1 Fast Hands for combat(?). Considering the both Gangs and Gangrel had > access to intercept (Raven Spy, Cat's Guidance, Anarch Free Press, The > Mole) and both had capable combat, I had no choice but to go forward with > every minion every turn and not even bother blocking. True. Not knowing the power (avg cap) of gangs and gangrel, and wanting more defense, I added 4-5 copies of 'The Mole', a RV, and a body bag. At the end of the day, the cards I would've removed? All the Moles, the RV, Bag, and the fast hands for sure (much much less weapons than I expected). The Moles become much less powerful in an anarch-heavy environment. Like someone commented on the Gangrels deck: other than the above-mentioned defensive effort I ditched as much fluff as possible, trying to reduce deck size so that i could do with the few Fee Stakes I had, and trying to keep the deck 'old proven tech' and the relative concentration of KRC, BO and VC high. I did draft the anarch free press asap when I saw it come by. > I just got to the > point where if I was going to lose a guy, he might as well be going forward > to try to get my 1 VP. Even with the cards from the boosters, with no > stealth for your votes or Go Anarch actions and no combat to keep your > vamps alive, it as simply outclassed by the blocking and combat-strong > Gangs and Gangrels. This is a concensus from the whole of our group. Ayone > else experience this? This was my fear as well, but I saw very little intercept on the day (when it appeared, it rocked). Of course, I did draft a bunch of little'uns as well, and when the deck gets rolling (minion tap, VC, BO) even slightly, you can get pretty good minion number advantage. > I must also note that every round was played so that > each table had a Gangs, Gangrel and Barons deck so we avoided contestation. Besides the final, we did this as well. > > 2) The Gangrel precon sucked ass, in large part due to an average > > minion size of 8ish compared to a much, much smaller average minion > > size for the other decks, and a paucity of non-Stanislava bleed > > options. > > It may have sucked ass but overall, our group found it the most capable of > all the decks. Very toolbox with Bleed, Stealth, a Hunting Ground, > Intercept, a crypt with a good grouping of disciplines, Blood Dolls, and > votes even. If you were able to draft well, you also got lots of the new > Gangrel. Not shaby at all. Yes, I thought the Gangrel had an easy draft position during the draft as well. They needed it, because lot's of high-caps needed to disappear from the initial crypt. Tobias Deventer

cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20030518124857...@mb-m20.aol.com>... > >As for average minion size, well, what about the draft? I played an > >average crypt of less than six, and even that was far from as small as > >you could manage (if you got a good draft). > > What draft? It doesn't make any sense to me to have a prerelease draft. A > good draft is one in which everyone knows what all of the cards do before they > have to make choices so they can choose quickly and make good choices. And, I > wouldn't want to see rare drafting, fights over cards for decks, etc. It made plenty of sense to me to be able to draft the boosters. Everybody gets 20 minutes to look at their precon construct, then pods of 3 (gangrel, anarch and a baron) draft their four boosters. 35 minutes for deck construct, and awaaay you go... Why wouldn't you draft? What happens if you get packs full of stuff that is useless for your deck? You get screwed, that's what. As for rare drafting, and fights over cards, well if _wankers_ want to draft for rares, or draft to hurt other decks (this actual seems valid to me, whereas rare drafting is just fucking stupid imho), then there's nothing you can do. I hope they get smashed for lack of useful cards. This is a potential problem in any draft situation, _regardless_ of how well people know what's in the set. Actually, one thing you can do (that I did)...open your pack, pick your card, shuffle the remaining, hand it on. Seems that rare drafting actually becomes less of a problem now (as compared to a draft where everybody _knows_ what the rares are). Drafting one of each deck in a pod was aimed at reducing the chance of conflicting drafts. I found that, *in general*, in my draft, I would draft all the useful cards that I could find, then draft any left over vamps., then draft cards I thought would be uesful in other decks, before being left to pick from the shit. > > >I would be nice to know what format you played in. We played in a > >fifteen player event with each player using an entire starter and > >drafting four boosters. Contesting wasn't really much of an issue > >(that I saw), but it did occur. I found that, by talking to the table > >prior to transferring, I was able to avoid contesting all day (well, I > >deliberately contested in the final, but that's a different story). > > Sealed - precon + four boosters. No contesting of vampires. > > So, of course format is going to affect results, but it still stands that > Barons have far more ousting ability at a cost of having nonexistent combat. > Neither is a good thing. No contesting? So what, multiple copies of the same vamp are allowed in play? So long as they are controlled by different methuselahs? Different. Having not played a Baron deck, but having watched them get rushed and scratched, blocked and binned, and generally shat on all day, I can't really agree with your summary. That they started out quicker than the other decks, sure, but I tend to think that a lack of robustnes/versatility really detracted from there ability to survive in the environment. I'll agree that the (Baron) deck contained more actual <pool> damaging cards, but that does not eqaute to ousting ability in my book. Especially in a fixed environment such as the pre-release was. Does anyone think that the Gangrel deck consisting of entirely reprints, cards that people are used to putting in decks, and playing with, had any impact on the day? I got the feeling that by playing with familiar cards I had a slight advantage on other players (who were constantly having to read nad reread cards throughout the course of the day). Just thoughts and opinions. -Scrote

On 19 May 2003 00:50:33 -0700, mud...@hotmail.com (scrote) scrawled: >cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20030518124857...@mb-m20.aol.com>... >> >As for average minion size, well, what about the draft? I played an >> >average crypt of less than six, and even that was far from as small as >> >you could manage (if you got a good draft). >> >> What draft? It doesn't make any sense to me to have a prerelease draft. A >> good draft is one in which everyone knows what all of the cards do before they >> have to make choices so they can choose quickly and make good choices. And, I >> wouldn't want to see rare drafting, fights over cards for decks, etc. > >It made plenty of sense to me to be able to draft the boosters. >Everybody gets 20 minutes to look at their precon construct, then pods >of 3 (gangrel, anarch and a baron) draft their four boosters. 35 >minutes for deck construct, and awaaay you go... > >Why wouldn't you draft? What happens if you get packs full of stuff >that is useless for your deck? You get screwed, that's what. call me old fashioned, and perhaps a little crazy, but i thought the idea of pre-releases was to see the nifty new cards, and get your hands on them before general release, and have fun. secondary to that is the actual competition. also, time constraints. I'm a big fan of 3+F tournaments over 2+F. i'd play 4+F if i could convince enough players to play for that long. and if i could find a venue for it... however, playing at the local store that wants to close at 5pm (we convinced them to let us stay until 5.30pm to give the final an extra 1/2 hour), plus deck building, plus the fact that no matter how important you tell people that being on time is, no one turns up on time...meant a 2+F pre-release for us, with no time to draft. get packs, build, and play. 1/2 hour lunch. not that i wasn't trying to win, but i didn't care at all if the cards in my packs were good or not for my deck. they were NEW. and fancy. so i put them in.... so what if you're screwed? it's fun trying to play with a handful of less-than-optimal cards. if it was a regular sealed, rather than pre-release, then i would be more in favour of draft. not that i am any good at draft, as i will point out each and every time it comes up in a thread. but a pre-release? open your packs! go 'oooooh, nice tits!'[0], chuck them in your deck, count it to make sure it's not more than 90 cards, and off you go! [0] Sowing Dissention. Which, as someone brought up, should probably be "Sowing Dissent"? [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: > [0] Sowing Dissention. Which, as someone brought up, should probably > be "Sowing Dissent"? http://www.m-w.com Dissent (n): difference of opinion Dissention (n): disagreemnet; syn: discord -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

alle...@rogers.com writes: >Gomi no Sensei wrote: >> 1) The Barons precon destroyed Gangs and Gangrel. >How a Barons precon didn't get destroyed by >either the Gangs or Gangrel deck >in your release is beyond me. I recall it >having only 2 Majesty, 1 Dodge >and 1 Fast Hands for combat(?). >Considering the both Gangs and Gangrel had >access to intercept (Raven Spy, Cat's Guidance, >Anarch Free Press, The Mole) Block the Raven Spy if it comes up. Cat's Guidance is a problem occasionally but just rescue. He's not likely to have another immediately. AFP is only 1 card and may be contested. Most of your vamps have cel: no mole intercept. Result: Very little intercept so you oust easily with votes. Plus, frankly, the Gangrel and Gang decks aren't *that* killer in combat. I went slap-slap with them on several occasions when I had to block an action and had no combat defense. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com) "It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson

On 19 May 2003 14:44:12 GMT, curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) scrawled: >alle...@rogers.com writes: >[snip] >>How a Barons precon didn't get destroyed by >>either the Gangs or Gangrel deck >>in your release is beyond me. I recall it >>having only 2 Majesty, 1 Dodge >>and 1 Fast Hands for combat(?). >>Considering the both Gangs and Gangrel had >>access to intercept (Raven Spy, Cat's Guidance, >>Anarch Free Press, The Mole) > >Block the Raven Spy if it comes up. >Cat's Guidance is a problem occasionally but just >rescue. He's not likely to have another immediately. >AFP is only 1 card and may be contested. >Most of your vamps have cel: no mole intercept. > >Result: Very little intercept so you oust easily with >votes. Agreed. Biggest problem i had with the Barons was Stanislava's votes, but Elvis...erm...that 4 cap Toreador who can change cam vamp's votes, fixed that problem when it came up. (me just influencing him up dissuaded my prey from influencing Stanislava after my prey's experience in a prior round with his votes being changed by his predator). [ quoted text not captured ]

salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<6d6hcvsfat5j5judj...@4ax.com>... > On 19 May 2003 00:50:33 -0700, mud...@hotmail.com (scrote) scrawled: > > >cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) wrote in message news:<20030518124857...@mb-m20.aol.com>... > >> >As for average minion size, well, what about the draft? I played an > >> >average crypt of less than six, and even that was far from as small as > >> >you could manage (if you got a good draft). > >> > >> What draft? It doesn't make any sense to me to have a prerelease draft. A > >> good draft is one in which everyone knows what all of the cards do before they > >> have to make choices so they can choose quickly and make good choices. And, I > >> wouldn't want to see rare drafting, fights over cards for decks, etc. > > > >It made plenty of sense to me to be able to draft the boosters. > >Everybody gets 20 minutes to look at their precon construct, then pods > >of 3 (gangrel, anarch and a baron) draft their four boosters. 35 > >minutes for deck construct, and awaaay you go... > > > >Why wouldn't you draft? What happens if you get packs full of stuff > >that is useless for your deck? You get screwed, that's what. > > call me old fashioned, and perhaps a little crazy, but i thought the > idea of pre-releases was to see the nifty new cards, and get your > hands on them before general release, and have fun. > > secondary to that is the actual competition. So what's your point Salem? Sounds like crazy, old-fashioned, horseshit to me :). Becasue the *competition* is second, we should just ignore it? What are you getting at? That we didn't get to see the nifty new cards and have fun beasue we drafted? Explain yourself man. The main aim of the prerelease should be for everybody to enjoy themselves. "Getting screwed" and then dying in the first 20 minutes of your first two rounds, is not fun. Personally, I think that a draft is not neccessary, but it that it makes for a better, overall, tournament. > > also, time constraints. I'm a big fan of 3+F tournaments over 2+F. i'd > play 4+F if i could convince enough players to play for that long. and > if i could find a venue for it... > however, playing at the local store that wants to close at 5pm (we > convinced them to let us stay until 5.30pm to give the final an extra > 1/2 hour), plus deck building, plus the fact that no matter how > important you tell people that being on time is, no one turns up on > time...meant a 2+F pre-release for us, with no time to draft. get > packs, build, and play. 1/2 hour lunch. Ok then. Not everybody was _able_ to have a draft. I was responding to "It doesn't make any sense to me to have a prerelease draft.". What about you? Please read my comments in the context that they were given. > > not that i wasn't trying to win, but i didn't care at all if the cards > in my packs were good or not for my deck. they were NEW. and fancy. so > i put them in.... I played a Gangrel deck, and as it consisted entriely of reprints, my biggest complaint was that I hardly got a chance to use any of the new cards. > > so what if you're screwed? it's fun trying to play with a handful of > less-than-optimal cards. To you. Maybe I am just more competitive. How does drafting stop you doing that anyway? If anything, it gives you access to more new stuff to jam in your deck. > > if it was a regular sealed, rather than pre-release, then i would be > more in favour of draft. not that i am any good at draft, as i will > point out each and every time it comes up in a thread. Like I said in my last post, "Just thoughts and opinions". Obviously we will have to agree to disagree here. > > but a pre-release? open your packs! go 'oooooh, nice tits!'[0], chuck > them in your deck, count it to make sure it's not more than 90 cards, > and off you go! Tits? They're pixelated. Great card though. > > [0] Sowing Dissention. Which, as someone brought up, should probably > be "Sowing Dissent"? > No, it should not. Who pointed it out? Was it Craig Love by any chance? Dissention: not a word. Dissension: noun: disagreement among those expected to cooperate noun: a conflict of people's opinions or actions or characters Dissent: noun: a difference of opinion noun: (law) the difference of one judge's opinion from that of the majority (Example: "He expressed his dissent in a contrary opinion") noun: the act of protesting; a public (often organized) manifestation of dissent verb: withhold assent (Example: "Several Republicans dissented") verb: fight back, also metaphorically verb: be of different opinions -scrote [ quoted text not captured ]

On 19 May 2003 18:34:59 -0700, mud...@hotmail.com (scrote) scrawled: >salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<6d6hcvsfat5j5judj...@4ax.com>... [snip] >> >Why wouldn't you draft? What happens if you get packs full of stuff >> >that is useless for your deck? You get screwed, that's what. >> >> call me old fashioned, and perhaps a little crazy, but i thought the >> idea of pre-releases was to see the nifty new cards, and get your >> hands on them before general release, and have fun. >> >> secondary to that is the actual competition. > >So what's your point Salem? Sounds like crazy, old-fashioned, >horseshit to me :). Becasue the *competition* is second, we should >just ignore it? no, we shouldn't ignore it. although a pre-release event of just as many games as you can have with no 'rounds' or 'finals' and just social games would also appeal to me. but i don't know if i am the only one that feels like this. anyone out there in newsgroup land think this would be an ok format for a pre-release? > What are you getting at? That we didn't get to see the >nifty new cards and have fun beasue we drafted? Explain yourself man. i'm not saying you missed out on anything because you drafted, i'm saying that i disagree with your comment of "What happens if you get packs full of stuff that is useless for your deck? You get screwed, that's what" it's a sealed event. no one is going to get ousted in 20 mins unless they do some really risky stuff. people are unlucky to get ousted at all in sealed. :) more ousts in draft, though... >The main aim of the prerelease should be for everybody to enjoy >themselves. "Getting screwed" and then dying in the first 20 minutes >of your first two rounds, is not fun. but it;'s not going to happen. even if someone gets all awesome cards intheir boosters, and you use no cards from your boosters, you're still not 'getting screwed'. and as everyone would be not-drafting, it's likely everyone will get _approximately_ the same amount of useful cards as each other. what happens in draft if the packs you open are not good for your deck, and the packs that get passed to you already have the cards that would be good for your deck taken out? you get screwed, that's what. >Personally, I think that a draft is not neccessary, but it that it >makes for a better, overall, tournament. I agree. If it wasn't a pre-release. As it is, for an event with cards people haven't seen before: 1) i feel you'd either need to give people extra time to draft cards, due to not knowing what they did. That time would be better spent actually playing in the rounds, especially as sealed events go to time more than constructed (or so it seems. i don't actually have any data to back that up with) OR 2) you get the same amount of time to draft as you would if you knew the cards. this will lead to some dodgy drafting, which might not help all that much more than just playing straight sealed. but, as well all know, these are just opinions. and i try and accomodate the wishes of my players overall where possible. >> also, time constraints. I'm a big fan of 3+F tournaments over 2+F. i'd [snip] >Ok then. Not everybody was _able_ to have a draft. I was responding to >"It doesn't make any sense to me to have a prerelease draft.". What >about you? i was responding to your assertion that if you get packs that aren't optimal for your deck, you're 'screwed', and pointing out several reasons that i thought were relevant to holding non-draft, as a counterpoint to your reason for having a draft. >Please read my comments in the context that they were given. um, ok. :) >> not that i wasn't trying to win, but i didn't care at all if the cards >> in my packs were good or not for my deck. they were NEW. and fancy. so >> i put them in.... > >I played a Gangrel deck, and as it consisted entriely of reprints, my >biggest complaint was that I hardly got a chance to use any of the new >cards. but you could have. you could have drafted new cards, and put them in your deck. gangrels have disciplines all over the place. there's no reason why you couldn't have played gangrels going anarch, and used some of the anarch cards...? you shouldn't complain that the format you played in stopped you from doing something, when you actually chose not to do it rather than being forced. especialy when the format you're speaking against would encourage more use of new cards. >> so what if you're screwed? it's fun trying to play with a handful of >> less-than-optimal cards. > >To you. Maybe I am just more competitive. but...if everyone is in the same boat, how could your relative competativeness be any different? say a deck has a "Goodness Factor" (GF) on a scale from 1 to 10. In sealed, say you could build a deck with a GF from 3 to 6. anyone in that tourney could build one from 3 to 6. now, in draft, say you can build decks from 5 to 8. you could still maybe get an advantage by using your drafting skills to put you in the higher end, but should drafting skills be something that is important at a pre-relase (read: see new cards as primary goal, winning as secondary), especially when the deck building and playing skills are already taken into account? >How does drafting stop you doing that anyway? If anything, it gives >you access to more new stuff to jam in your deck. which the highly competative people won't do (see: you ;), thus making the people who are drafting to see interesting stuff get trounced. which you earlier stated wasn't much fun. >> if it was a regular sealed, rather than pre-release, then i would be >> more in favour of draft. not that i am any good at draft, as i will >> point out each and every time it comes up in a thread. > >Like I said in my last post, "Just thoughts and opinions". Obviously >we will have to agree to disagree here. but, my opinion is right, right? i am after all omniscient and stuff... all lesser mortals must bow down before my irrefutable logical powers of Being Right. >> but a pre-release? open your packs! go 'oooooh, nice tits!'[0], chuck >> them in your deck, count it to make sure it's not more than 90 cards, >> and off you go! > >Tits? They're pixelated. Great card though. really? didn't notice much pixels. and fee stake new york, i think it is, with the chick with the fiery red hair? i think the dodgy one-hit-wonder band Dave and the Derros summed it up nicely in the 80's with "Nice legs, shame about the face". >> [0] Sowing Dissention. Which, as someone brought up, should probably >> be "Sowing Dissent"? >> > >No, it should not. Who pointed it out? Was it Craig Love by any >chance? erg. him or Jeremy, can't remember. did anyone else play a pe-release with a player called Jeremy? it became sooooo confusing when people were playing with Jeremy MacNeill. >Dissention: not a word. erm, yeah. i knew that. typo, not misspelling. honest. me good speak learn is spell. >Dissension: >noun: disagreement among those expected to cooperate >noun: a conflict of people's opinions or actions or characters > >Dissent: > noun: a difference of opinion >noun: (law) the difference of one judge's opinion from that of the >majority (Example: "He expressed his dissent in a contrary opinion") >noun: the act of protesting; a public (often organized) >manifestation of dissent >verb: withhold assent (Example: "Several Republicans dissented") >verb: fight back, also metaphorically >verb: be of different opinions ok ok i get it. i was just asking about that bit, not asserting anything. :) or is that 'assersing'? [ quoted text not captured ]

scrote wrote: > salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<6d6hcvsfat5j5judj...@4ax.com>... >>[0] Sowing Dissention. Which, as someone brought up, should probably >>be "Sowing Dissent"? >> > No, it should not. Who pointed it out? Was it Craig Love by any > chance? > > Dissention: not a word. > > Dissension: > noun: disagreement among those expected to cooperate > noun: a conflict of people's opinions or actions or characters BTW: Dissention is an acknowledged alternate spelling of dissension, according to http://www.m-w.com [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3ECA249B...@white-wolf.com>... > scrote wrote: > > salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<6d6hcvsfat5j5judj...@4ax.com>... > >>[0] Sowing Dissention. Which, as someone brought up, should probably > >>be "Sowing Dissent"? > >> > > No, it should not. Who pointed it out? Was it Craig Love by any > > chance? > > > > Dissention: not a word. > > > > Dissension: > > noun: disagreement among those expected to cooperate > > noun: a conflict of people's opinions or actions or characters > > BTW: > Dissention is an acknowledged alternate spelling of dissension, > according to http://www.m-w.com Bah, alternate spellings are for dodgy Americans who like to leave the "u" out of colour, spell mum with an "o" and who substitute "s"'s with "z"'s all over the place. :) -Scrote

salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<gm5jcv4qo504f4ma3...@4ax.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] I did. I won the tournament, but I still died in 20 minutes into the first round with no VP's. Admittedly it was a very risky manuver on my behalf. I backed someone wouldn't have the cards to get me (required a laptop and a force of will), but they did... Perhaps I was a bit extreme with my example. Consider instead, playing for an hour and hardly doing anything (close to effective) because you got shit in your packs...use you imagination Salem. > > >The main aim of the prerelease should be for everybody to enjoy > >themselves. "Getting screwed" and then dying in the first 20 minutes > >of your first two rounds, is not fun. > > but it;'s not going to happen. even if someone gets all awesome cards > intheir boosters, and you use no cards from your boosters, you're > still not 'getting screwed'. and as everyone would be not-drafting, > it's likely everyone will get _approximately_ the same amount of > useful cards as each other. That's why we talk in "what if's" :). Drafting makes the "what if" much less likely. > > what happens in draft if the packs you open are not good for your > deck, and the packs that get passed to you already have the cards that > would be good for your deck taken out? you get screwed, that's what. Unlikely. 12 packs, three *different* starters to a pod..pretty slim. . > > >Personally, I think that a draft is not neccessary, but it that it > >makes for a better, overall, tournament. > > I agree. If it wasn't a pre-release. > As it is, for an event with cards people haven't seen before: > 1) i feel you'd either need to give people extra time to draft cards, > due to not knowing what they did. That time would be better spent > actually playing in the rounds, especially as sealed events go to time > more than constructed (or so it seems. i don't actually have any data > to back that up with) We didn't really have any time constraints at our event, so there was no problems in this regard. However, I can see how time could be a major consideration, that may rule out even the possibility of a draft. > OR > 2) you get the same amount of time to draft as you would if you knew > the cards. this will lead to some dodgy drafting, which might not help > all that much more than just playing straight sealed. > > but, as well all know, these are just opinions. and i try and > accomodate the wishes of my players overall where possible. Always. > > >> also, time constraints. I'm a big fan of 3+F tournaments over 2+F. i'd > [snip] > >Ok then. Not everybody was _able_ to have a draft. I was responding to > >"It doesn't make any sense to me to have a prerelease draft.". What > >about you? > > i was responding to your assertion that if you get packs that aren't > optimal for your deck, you're 'screwed', and pointing out several > reasons that i thought were relevant to holding non-draft, as a > counterpoint to your reason for having a draft. > My bad :) > >Please read my comments in the context that they were given. > > um, ok. :) > :P > >> not that i wasn't trying to win, but i didn't care at all if the cards > >> in my packs were good or not for my deck. they were NEW. and fancy. so > >> i put them in.... > > > >I played a Gangrel deck, and as it consisted entriely of reprints, my > >biggest complaint was that I hardly got a chance to use any of the new > >cards. > > but you could have. you could have drafted new cards, and put them in > your deck. gangrels have disciplines all over the place. there's no > reason why you couldn't have played gangrels going anarch, and used > some of the anarch cards...? > > you shouldn't complain that the format you played in stopped you from > doing something, when you actually chose not to do it rather than > being forced. especialy when the format you're speaking against would > encourage more use of new cards. I didn't comment on the format at all. What I did say was the fact that the deck was entirely reprints didn't give me a lot of options for using the new cards. Better? Sure, i could have drafted the new cards, but seeing as there was at least one other deck in my pod trying to draft for the similar stuff...wouldn't make much sense would it. Oh, I'll just pass up that form of mist and take this fee stakes Perth, because I live in Australia and my Gangrel are gonna be One Nation ganrel...:) *Might* be fun, but not a lot of sense to me. > > >> so what if you're screwed? it's fun trying to play with a handful of > >> less-than-optimal cards. > > > >To you. Maybe I am just more competitive. > > but...if everyone is in the same boat, how could your relative > competativeness be any different? Because you are relying on the distribution in the packs being relatively as fair and as useful for all the players concerned. Drafting limits the amount of reliance (but it does also require other skills as well, besides just opening packs, constructing, and playing. The draft is a skill unto itself). > > say a deck has a "Goodness Factor" (GF) on a scale from 1 to 10. In > sealed, say you could build a deck with a GF from 3 to 6. anyone in > that tourney could build one from 3 to 6. My packs allow a GF of 3 -7. Yours only allow 3-5. > now, in draft, say you can build decks from 5 to 8. Depending on how well I draft, I will have a potentially improved GF, yes. > you could still maybe get an advantage by using your drafting skills > to put you in the higher end, but should drafting skills be something > that is important at a pre-relase (read: see new cards as primary > goal, winning as secondary), especially when the deck building and > playing skills are already taken into account? Fair commnet. I like drafting, so this isn't really an issue for *me*. Others may think differently... > > >How does drafting stop you doing that anyway? If anything, it gives > >you access to more new stuff to jam in your deck. > > which the highly competative people won't do (see: you ;), thus making > the people who are drafting to see interesting stuff get trounced. > which you earlier stated wasn't much fun. Ah, but your comment was that you like to play prerelease and use lots of the new cards. Now you say that more new cards is a bad thing? If you play with shit in your deck that is kooky, but ulitimately, not a wise choice, then you will more than likely get trounced by someone that has *tuned* their deck to win. Format is irrelevant. Besides which, drafting means that you have more chance of getting kooky cards that are actual good for your deck. > > >> if it was a regular sealed, rather than pre-release, then i would be > >> more in favour of draft. not that i am any good at draft, as i will > >> point out each and every time it comes up in a thread. You suck :) > > > >Like I said in my last post, "Just thoughts and opinions". Obviously > >we will have to agree to disagree here. > > but, my opinion is right, right? i am after all omniscient and > stuff... all lesser mortals must bow down before my irrefutable > logical powers of Being Right. Mortals you say? I'm alright then. > > >> but a pre-release? open your packs! go 'oooooh, nice tits!'[0], chuck > >> them in your deck, count it to make sure it's not more than 90 cards, > >> and off you go! > > > >Tits? They're pixelated. Great card though. > > really? didn't notice much pixels. and fee stake new york, i think it > is, with the chick with the fiery red hair? i think the dodgy > one-hit-wonder band Dave and the Derros summed it up nicely in the > 80's with "Nice legs, shame about the face". Carnivale. Unique master. Put this card on a ready Toreador. You may burn this card to give this Toreador +1 stealth for the current action. The pixelated tits are funny, but personally, I like the guy having a ralph in the background. He looks so casual about it. Kick ass card for torries. > >> [0] Sowing Dissention. Which, as someone brought up, should probably > >> be "Sowing Dissent"? > >> > > > >No, it should not. Who pointed it out? Was it Craig Love by any > >chance? > > erg. him or Jeremy, can't remember. did anyone else play a pe-release > with a player called Jeremy? it became sooooo confusing when people > were playing with Jeremy MacNeill. > > >Dissention: not a word. > > erm, yeah. i knew that. typo, not misspelling. honest. me good speak > learn is spell. > > >Dissension: > >noun: disagreement among those expected to cooperate > >noun: a conflict of people's opinions or actions or characters > > > >Dissent: > > noun: a difference of opinion > >noun: (law) the difference of one judge's opinion from that of the > >majority (Example: "He expressed his dissent in a contrary opinion") > >noun: the act of protesting; a public (often organized) > >manifestation of dissent > >verb: withhold assent (Example: "Several Republicans dissented") > >verb: fight back, also metaphorically > >verb: be of different opinions > > ok ok i get it. i was just asking about that bit, not asserting > anything. :) or is that 'assersing'? Maybe assing. Recently, Salem has been assing himself on the Newsgroup? :P -Scrote [ quoted text not captured ]