Is Legacy of Power considered an "as combat is entered" card, or can it
also be played later.
Can it be played in response to superior Thoughts Betrayed? It would
appear so.
Lupus Australis
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Lupus Australis wrote:
>
> Is Legacy of Power considered an "as combat is entered" card, or can it
> also be played later.
Card text: when the vampire enters combat.
> Can it be played in response to superior Thoughts Betrayed? It would
> appear so.
Yes.
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team
LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) wrote:
: Lupus Australis wrote:
: >
: > Is Legacy of Power considered an "as combat is entered" card, or can it
: > also be played later.: Card text: when the vampire enters combat.
I'm as wise as ever. Does that, or does that not, mean that it is an "as
combat is entered" effect?
Perhaps you think me dense, but to me "when" and "as" do not mean the
same thing. "As" almost always means "at the same time as", whereas
"when" is generally used, in contexts such as these, to mean "right
after". "I wept when she died" does not mean the same thing as "I wept as
she died." Vampires do a lot of things "when" they enter combat,
including maneuvering, striking, pressing and pulling each other's fangs.
Of course, if it were explained that "as combat is entered" really means
"when combat is entered" or "right after combat is entered" or "play in
response to combat being entered" this would resolve all the
contradictions I have previously complained about.
[ quoted text not captured ]
John Whelan wrote:
>
> LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) wrote:
> : Lupus Australis wrote:
> : >
> : > Is Legacy of Power considered an "as combat is entered" card, or can it
> : > also be played later.
>
> : Card text: when the vampire enters combat.
>
> I'm as wise as ever. Does that, or does that not, mean that it is an "as
> combat is entered" effect?
It does.
> Perhaps you think me dense, but to me "when" and "as" do not mean the
> same thing. "As" almost always means "at the same time as", whereas
> "when" is generally used, in contexts such as these, to mean "right
> after".
"When" is generally used in many ways. It meaning depends on context.
Webster's lists its definition by usage. The primary usage is
"At what time". Followed by:
* At the time that [i.e.: "As" - which is the usage in LoP]
* As soon as [i.e.: "once" something happens - the meaning you see]
* Whenever
* During the time at which [i.e. "while"]
* Whereas
* Considering that
and several more.
> "I wept when she died" does not mean the same thing as "I wept as
> she died." Vampires do a lot of things "when" they enter combat,
> including maneuvering, striking, pressing and pulling each other's fangs.
Those things they do "while" they are in combat - the fifth usage.
Compare the Fifth Tradition (the actual VtM tradition, not the VtES card):
The Fifth Tradition: Hospitality - Honor one another's domain.
When thou comest to a foreign city, thou shall present thyself to the
one who ruleth therein. Without the word of acceptance, thou art
nothing and Pariah within that domain.
"When" here is "As".
Same thing for Legacy of Power.
> Of course, if it were explained that "as combat is entered" really means
> "when combat is entered" or "right after combat is entered" or "play in
> response to combat being entered" this would resolve all the
> contradictions I have previously complained about.
"As combat is entered" means "When combat is entered", still.
They both refer to the first sub-phase of combat which no
other sub-phase can precede.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, LSJ wrote:
> John Whelan wrote:
> > : > Is Legacy of Power considered an "as combat is entered" card, or can it
> > : > also be played later.
> >
> > : Card text: when the vampire enters combat.
> >
> > I'm as wise as ever. Does that, or does that not, mean that it is an "as
> > combat is entered" effect?
>
> It does.
>
> > Perhaps you think me dense, but to me "when" and "as" do not mean the
> > same thing. "As" almost always means "at the same time as", whereas
> > "when" is generally used, in contexts such as these, to mean "right
> > after".
>
> "When" is generally used in many ways. It meaning depends on context.
> Webster's lists its definition by usage. The primary usage is
> "At what time". Followed by:
[snip various meanings]
> and several more.
Yes. I agree that "when" is fairly flexible wording, and can mean the
same thing as "as". "As" is rather more specific more specific as relates
to timing, and generally means "simultaneously with".
> > "I wept when she died" does not mean the same thing as "I wept as
> > she died." Vampires do a lot of things "when" they enter combat,
> > including maneuvering, striking, pressing and pulling each other's fangs.
>
> Those things they do "while" they are in combat - the fifth usage.
No problem. I was merely pointing out that "when", unlike "as", is
flexible enough to cover timing that is subsequent. The two words could
mean the same thing, but not necessarily, which was why I requested the
clarification.
> > Of course, if it were explained that "as combat is entered" really means
> > "when combat is entered" or "right after combat is entered" or "play in
> > response to combat being entered" this would resolve all the
> > contradictions I have previously complained about.
>
> "As combat is entered" means "When combat is entered", still.
> They both refer to the first sub-phase of combat which no
> other sub-phase can precede.
OK. Well, perhaps you will be releived to hear that I have finally come
to grips with the official TB rulings. All I need to is think of "As
Combat is entered" as really meaning "When combat is entered", which can
be consistent with an interpretation of "in response to combat being
entered".
I still think the "as combat is entered" phrasing is misleading though.
It strongly implies simultaneity, which is not consistent with the rulings
made. For this reason, I definitely prefer the wording on Legacy of
Power to the (errata'd) wording on TB.
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