[LSJ] ghoul retainer doesn't strike ?

I've done an evil for/dom(+some obfuscate) bleed deck that depends somewhat on garottes to make the bleeds not blocked. Daring the dawn (if blocked) is used to make the strike from garotte aggravated and send the minion to torpor - then burn garotte to burn the opposing minion and possibly play a ritual of the bitter rose to complete the evil act. But anyways ghoul retainer would be ideal candidate for this deck in sense it could possibly use the garotte and the opposing miniong couldn't even dodge (since you can't dodge retainer's damage) But here's what it reads on the garotte - I am bit unsure if the retainer can use the special part of the card. Garotte (equipment), FN Strike: Strength damage, only usable at close range. If the opposing vampire goes into torpor during the strike resolution step of this strike and the bearer remains ready, the bearer may burn this card to burn the opposing vampire. This is not considered diablrie. (btw there was a type in crypt monger see last diablerie). It's the "of this strike" part that makes me wonder since ghoul retainer does not strike - it seems that this part does not trigger even if the opposing minion would go to torpor. In real a ghoul retainer of course could use garrotte to finish of the torporized vampire - but the card text possibly evades that. And for another one there's an old ruling (95) (on monger) that ghoul retainers are never bearer's of the equipment they use - but this is no problem, the vampire is the bearer and he must retain readiness and burn the equipment. So what I liked to know if the ghoul retainer can use garotte and then the bearer can trigger the garotte or not - I'd like to see it happen since it would be intuitive. Jukka

Jukka Lindstrom wrote: > I've done an evil for/dom(+some obfuscate) bleed deck that depends > somewhat on garottes to make the bleeds not blocked. Daring the dawn > (if blocked) is used to make the strike from garotte aggravated and > send the minion to torpor - then burn garotte to burn the opposing > minion and possibly play a ritual of the bitter rose to complete the > evil act. > > But anyways ghoul retainer would be ideal candidate for this deck in > sense it could possibly use the garotte and the opposing miniong > couldn't even dodge (since you can't dodge retainer's damage) > > It's the "of this strike" part that makes me wonder since ghoul > retainer does not strike - it seems that this part does not trigger > even if the opposing minion would go to torpor. Right. > In real a ghoul retainer of course could use garrotte to finish of the > torporized vampire - but the card text possibly evades that. In "real" the target could of course dodge. :-) > So what I liked to know if the ghoul retainer can use garotte and then > the bearer can trigger the garotte or not - I'd like to see it happen > since it would be intuitive. So you don't mind using the "cannot dodge" loophole (since it's not a strike), but you want other loopholes (since it's not a strike) closed? That wouldn't be quite fair, eh? :-) -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3C7627BA...@white-wolf.com>... > Jukka Lindstrom wrote: > > I've done an evil for/dom(+some obfuscate) bleed deck that depends > > somewhat on garottes to make the bleeds not blocked. Daring the dawn > > (if blocked) is used to make the strike from garotte aggravated and > > send the minion to torpor - then burn garotte to burn the opposing > > minion and possibly play a ritual of the bitter rose to complete the > > evil act. Puuh.. of course one cannot play ritual of the bitter rose to that since there's no diablerie. it was meant to be used in combination with amaranth (also included in the deck). > > But anyways ghoul retainer would be ideal candidate for this deck in > > sense it could possibly use the garotte and the opposing miniong > > couldn't even dodge (since you can't dodge retainer's damage) > > > > It's the "of this strike" part that makes me wonder since ghoul > > retainer does not strike - it seems that this part does not trigger > > even if the opposing minion would go to torpor. > > Right. > > > In real a ghoul retainer of course could use garrotte to finish of the > > torporized vampire - but the card text possibly evades that. > > In "real" the target could of course dodge. :-) > > > So what I liked to know if the ghoul retainer can use garotte and then > > the bearer can trigger the garotte or not - I'd like to see it happen > > since it would be intuitive. > > So you don't mind using the "cannot dodge" loophole (since it's not a strike), > but you want other loopholes (since it's not a strike) closed? That > wouldn't be quite fair, eh? :-) Well would be the plan :). No really, it would be nice if ghoul retainer could use garotte and meat hook so that they function correctly (hmm.. are there more . Dodgeably or not :P I'd prefer the former so they could be dodged, but of course that would need tampering with game methanics or rewriting the whole ghoul retainer. Well that might not be worth the trouble, I think. It sad - the poor fellow doesn't really know how to use them correctly, maybe he is a bit slow. Hmm. Maybe I'll make a deck with Ghoul Retainers and use mass reality and wooden stakes ;-). Ghoul retainer can hit with those stakes for more than 1 damage and the opposing minion cannot dodge or prevent them skin of steel etc. Or will the damage be considered inficted by the retainer and not by the weapon ? Wooden Stake Melee Weapon. Strength damage each strike. If more than 1 damage is inflicted on an opposing vampire by this weapon in a given combat, then that vampire is sent to torpor. In that case, this card is transferred to him and he doesn't untap as normal during the untap phase as long as he remains in torpor. Jukka

Jukka Lindstrom wrote: > Hmm. Maybe I'll make a deck with Ghoul Retainers and use mass reality > and wooden stakes ;-). Ghoul retainer can hit with those stakes for > more than 1 damage and the opposing minion cannot dodge or prevent > them skin of steel etc. Or will the damage be considered inficted by > the retainer and not by the weapon ? The damage is weapon damage. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Puuh.. of course one cannot play ritual of the bitter rose to that > since there's no diablerie. it was meant to be used in combination > with amaranth (also included in the deck). IIRC, Ritual can also be played when a vampire is burned in combat (per card text). Fanboy

Jukka Lindstrom wrote: >But anyways ghoul retainer would be ideal candidate for this deck in >sense it could possibly use the garotte and the opposing miniong >couldn't even dodge (since you can't dodge retainer's damage) I suspect there would be no damage to inflict, since Ghoul Retainers have no strength.

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3C76530C...@white-wolf.com>... > Jukka Lindstrom wrote: > > Hmm. Maybe I'll make a deck with Ghoul Retainers and use mass reality > > and wooden stakes ;-). Ghoul retainer can hit with those stakes for > > more than 1 damage and the opposing minion cannot dodge or prevent > > them skin of steel etc. Or will the damage be considered inficted by > > the retainer and not by the weapon ? > > The damage is weapon damage. Hrm..... the stake says it does strength damage. Does this mean that the Ghoul has a strength of 1, or does the weapon still use the vampire's strength? E.g. can I tear up a signpost / play fist of death, and then have the ghouls hit for 3+ damage?

Shaun McIsaac wrote: > Hrm..... the stake says it does strength damage. Does this mean that > the Ghoul has a strength of 1, or does the weapon still use the > vampire's strength? E.g. can I tear up a signpost / play fist of > death, and then have the ghouls hit for 3+ damage? The ghoul has no strength listed, so his strength is 0. [LSJ 01-NOV-2001] [ quoted text not captured ]

smci...@onesourcecorp.com (Shaun McIsaac) wrote in message news:<8f507d2e.02022...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] I suppose Ghoul hasn't got strength (has 0), but mass reality at superior gives +2 damage to weapons possessed by one's minions. Cards affecting only the minions strength do not have any effect on the damage the ghoul does. Mass Reality I think will since it affects the weapons damage. I just noticed the same problem with garotte (well that combo didn't work anyway so no big loss ;). Jukka