Several Questions for LSJ

Hello LSJ, Several questions came out of the last group meeting that we are now seeking answers for. 1) With Antediluvian Awakening, you take the damage at the beginning of your Untap Phase as per card text. When can you burn a minion (capacity 4 or better) to remove the Antedilubian Awakening? At any time? Only during your Untap Phase? Only during your Minion Phase? If at "Only during your Untap Phase", do you still take the 1 point of damage or does your burning of the minion prevent the loss of pool? 2) I believe this question as been asked before, however, I did not make a print-out of the response. If a player, who has played Seeds of Corruption on their prey, is ousted from the table take back the Seeds of Corruption or does it stay on the "inflicted" minion until removed? From my understanding of card ownership, the Seeds would be removed as the card is still controlled by the playing Methuselah. 3) If an minion receives 2 points of aggravated damage during combat and the vampire who inflicted the damage plays Taste of Vitae, how much blood is recovered? 1 (what I believe to be correct) or 2 points? 4) I am aware that when you play Bonding and you have not been Blocked, you are unable to play it at Superior to gain the stealth. This in turn has raised the question on Fata Morgana. Can minions who are bleeding using Fata Morgana to gain the +1 Bleed even if they are not being blocked? This has caused some major discussions in our group as the Ravnos Newsletter writing member can not believe that it would be denied. To him it would almost cripple the clan insofar as bleed actions go. (Not that the Ravnos are huge bleeders in themselves, exception being Force of Will.) 5) With the card, Drawing out the Beast, the question on how to stop the damage from occuring. The only two methods that come to mind have been Obedience and Elysium: The Arboretum. Do these cards prevent the damage of Drawing out the Beast? And are there other defensive measures that will stop the damage or combat (with no damage)? 6) Does Carrion Crows, Murder of Crows, Wolf Companion, Ghoul Retainer, Shade and Zombie cause damage if a Strike: Combat Ends is played? I say "No". Is this correct? 7) Does the minion who has a Fortune Teller retainer use their action to look at random card from their prey's hand or is this just an effect, much like Dr. Jest? Thanks ME Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

ramst...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Hello LSJ, > > Several questions came out of the last group meeting that we are now > seeking answers for. > > 1) With Antediluvian Awakening, you take the damage at the beginning > of your Untap Phase as per card text. When can you burn a minion "beginning of your Untap phase" here is equivalent to "during your untap phase". There are no effects that occur "at the beginning of your untap phase" except the required event: untap all of your cards. [4] > (capacity 4 or better) to remove the Antedilubian Awakening? At any > time? Only during your Untap Phase? Only during your Minion Phase? If > at "Only during your Untap Phase", do you still take the 1 point of > damage or does your burning of the minion prevent the loss of pool? You may order the loss of pool and the burning of Antediluvian Awakening however you wish. Typically this means you do not burn a pool. > 2) I believe this question as been asked before, however, I did not > make a print-out of the response. If a player, who has played Seeds of > Corruption on their prey, is ousted from the table take back the Seeds > of Corruption or does it stay on the "inflicted" minion until removed? > From my understanding of card ownership, the Seeds would be removed as > the card is still controlled by the playing Methuselah. It (Seeds of Corruption) remains in play as the card is not controlled by the (now ousted) Methuselah. It is a minion card, therefore it is controlled by the controller of the minion it is on. (Which is why the action to burn it is not directed if taken by a friendly minion.) > 3) If an minion receives 2 points of aggravated damage during combat > and the vampire who inflicted the damage plays Taste of Vitae, how much > blood is recovered? 1 (what I believe to be correct) or 2 points? 1 - the amount of blood lost to damage. > 4) I am aware that when you play Bonding and you have not been > Blocked, you are unable to play it at Superior to gain the stealth. > This in turn has raised the question on Fata Morgana. Can minions who > are bleeding using Fata Morgana to gain the +1 Bleed even if they are > not being blocked? No. You cannot add stealth if you do not need stealth. > 5) With the card, Drawing out the Beast, the question on how to stop > the damage from occuring. The only two methods that come to mind have > been Obedience and Elysium: The Arboretum. Do these cards prevent the > damage of Drawing out the Beast? And are there other defensive > measures that will stop the damage or combat (with no damage)? Obedience will stoip the card from being played, since Obedience is played before combat begins, and DotB cannot be played until combat has begun. Elysium will not protect from the damage, however, unless it is tapped before the DotB is played. > 6) Does Carrion Crows, Murder of Crows, Wolf Companion, Ghoul > Retainer, Shade and Zombie cause damage if a Strike: Combat Ends is > played? I say "No". Is this correct? "No" is correct. > 7) Does the minion who has a Fortune Teller retainer use their action > to look at random card from their prey's hand or is this just an > effect, much like Dr. Jest? It is not an action - it's just something that happens (like Rutor's Hand's untap) -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep

In article <38F1F6A5...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white- wolf.com> writes >> (capacity 4 or better) to remove the Antedilubian Awakening? At any >> time? Only during your Untap Phase? Only during your Minion Phase? If >> at "Only during your Untap Phase", do you still take the 1 point of >> damage or does your burning of the minion prevent the loss of pool? > >You may order the loss of pool and the burning of Antediluvian Awakening >however you wish. Typically this means you do not burn a pool. Further clarification is needed for a full answer to the question. The vampire you burn may only be burned during your untap phase - but, as noted, this can be before you take the pool loss. (Some people may wish to take the pool loss, of course, in order to meet the requirements for, say, a Parity Shift.) As I understand it, the revision of timing was made in order that bizarre timing issues did not come up - as was the problem with Living Manse, similarly (now only burnable before range). The timing of it previously was that the vampire could be burned at any time (by original card text not stating an alternative time frame), which created problems. For instance: "Okay, so you steal two blood from me with your strike, and I apply 5 damage to you which is aggravated. Since you're on 0 blood, you'll take two from me, and my 5 aggravated damage will then burn you. Hurrah!" "Hmmmm... okay, I steal two blood from you. But before we move from strike resolution to damage resolution, I'll burn my vampire in order to burn the Antediluvian Awakening." Not fun, and a headache to explain to players. -- James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England) Vampire: Elder Kindred Network http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net http://www.zephyr.org.uk

In article <38F1F6A5...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: snip > > 2) I believe this question as been asked before, however, I did not > > make a print-out of the response. If a player, who has played Seeds of > > Corruption on their prey, is ousted from the table take back the Seeds > > of Corruption or does it stay on the "inflicted" minion until removed? > > From my understanding of card ownership, the Seeds would be removed as > > the card is still controlled by the playing Methuselah. > > It (Seeds of Corruption) remains in play as the card is not controlled > by the (now ousted) Methuselah. It is a minion card, therefore it is > controlled by the controller of the minion it is on. > (Which is why the action to burn it is not directed if taken by a > friendly minion.) > So to easily identify if a card is controlled by the playing Methuselah's minion or the minion receiving the action is the "(D) Directed Action" statement? Or is there some other criteria? Reason for the question is figure out the criteria by which cards are allowed to stay on the table and which ones leave the table when player (instigator) of the card is ousted. Example 1: Rumors of Gehenna (to me becomes a table environmental effect once passed) Example 2: Anarch Revolt (to me becomes a table environmental effect once played) snip > > 5) With the card, Drawing out the Beast, the question on how to stop > > the damage from occuring. The only two methods that come to mind have > > been Obedience and Elysium: The Arboretum. Do these cards prevent the > > damage of Drawing out the Beast? And are there other defensive > > measures that will stop the damage or combat (with no damage)? > > Obedience will stoip the card from being played, since Obedience is > played before combat begins, and DotB cannot be played until combat > has begun. > > Elysium will not protect from the damage, however, unless it is tapped > before the DotB is played. > Now the question of how the Pre-Ranged Cards are laid upon the table comes to mind. The Acting Player (minion) is allow first lay down a any Pre-Ranged Card (Correct?). How many can the Acting Player (minion) lay down before the defending player can tap the Elysium to reduce the damage he/she will receive. If the play is a 1 to 1 Pre-Ranged Effect (card or otherwise), then the defending player would receive 1 point of damage and combat is over. If the play is everything the Acting Player (minion) can lay down (to include refilling their hand and continuing the lay down) before the Elysium can be tapped, then the defending player is takes all the damage. Reasoning for this question is due to the nature of the DotB at superior and it's few counters (none of which contain any Common counters). If the second method is the sequence of play, then DotB becomes a major offensive weapon that requires selective deck counters (via 1 Discipline or a Direct Intervention card to stop the initial Rush). Currently the DotB only has Obedience (uncommon) to completely stop it. Immortal Grapple (rare/uncommon)provides a determent against it (mutual torporization). Lady Thunder is an unknown as I am unclear if she ends the combat before it begins (thereby stopping the DotB) or if she functions like the Elysium. Direct Intervention (rare) would effectively stop only 1 combat per turn by negating the Rush action. Thanks Michael Eichler [ quoted text not captured ]

Ramsteiner wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > It (Seeds of Corruption) remains in play as the card is not controlled > > by the (now ousted) Methuselah. It is a minion card, therefore it is > > controlled by the controller of the minion it is on. > > (Which is why the action to burn it is not directed if taken by a > > friendly minion.) > > > So to easily identify if a card is controlled by the playing > Methuselah's minion or the minion receiving the action is the "(D) > Directed Action" statement? Or is there some other criteria? No. Above, the action is not directed *because* it is targetting a card you control (not the other way around). A (minion) card is controlled by the controlled of the minion it is on, as stated above. This is true whether the card was played by taht minion, by another minion controlled by the same Methuselah, or by a minion controlled by another Methuselah. If a minion card is not played on a minion (e.g., Army of Rats), then it is controlled by the Methuselah whose minion played the card. > Reason for the question is figure out the criteria by which cards are > allowed to stay on the table and which ones leave the table when player > (instigator) of the card is ousted. > Example 1: Rumors of Gehenna (to me becomes a table environmental > effect once passed) All controlled cards are controlled by someone. In this case (a minion card not "on" a minion), it is controlled by the Methuselah who played it. > Example 2: Anarch Revolt (to me becomes a table environmental effect > once played) Master cards (as opposed to minion cards) are always controlled by the Methuselah who played them (unless card text says otherwise). > > Elysium will not protect from the damage, however, unless it is tapped > > before the DotB is played. > > > Now the question of how the Pre-Ranged Cards are laid upon the table > comes to mind. The Acting Player (minion) is allow first lay down a > any Pre-Ranged Card (Correct?). How many can the Acting Player > (minion) lay down before the defending player can tap the Elysium to > reduce the damage he/she will receive. As many as she wants. The acting player always has the first chance to play the "next" effect. [1.6.1.5 Sequencing] > If the play is a 1 to 1 Pre-Ranged Effect (card or otherwise), then the > defending player would receive 1 point of damage and combat is over. > If the play is everything the Acting Player (minion) can lay down (to > include refilling their hand and continuing the lay down) before the > Elysium can be tapped, then the defending player is takes all the > damage. Right. > Reasoning for this question is due to the nature of the DotB at > superior and it's few counters (none of which contain any Common > counters). If the second method is the sequence of play, then DotB > becomes a major offensive weapon that requires selective deck counters > (via 1 Discipline or a Direct Intervention card to stop the initial > Rush). Currently the DotB only has Obedience (uncommon) to completely > stop it. Immortal Grapple (rare/uncommon)provides a determent against > it (mutual torporization). Lady Thunder is an unknown as I am unclear > if she ends the combat before it begins (thereby stopping the DotB) or > if she functions like the Elysium. Direct Intervention (rare) would She functions with the same timing as Elysium. > effectively stop only 1 combat per turn by negating the Rush action. -- [ quoted text not captured ]

> A (minion) card is controlled by the controlled of the minion it is > on, as stated above. This is true whether the card was played by > taht minion, by another minion controlled by the same Methuselah, > or by a minion controlled by another Methuselah. So by using the above reasoning, I can put my Charnas on my prey's minion and my prey in turn can transfer it to any of his other minions? Same with the Shackles of Enkidu? Sorrow --- "...but you know, evil is an exact science..."

In article <8HGI4.1466$%L6.8...@monger.newsread.com>, Sorrow <cbo...@apdi.net> writes >So by using the above reasoning, I can put my Charnas on my >prey's minion and my prey in turn can transfer it to any of his >other minions? No, because the "put on a vampire" is an effect of playing it. > Same with the Shackles of Enkidu? Specifically not, by errata. You still control them, so they cannot pass it on. Hmmm.... Theoretically, by card text, it appears that I could give your copy of, say, Agrippina the shackles, and then when Agrippina was in combat with someone, move them across again, because I still control them and fulfill the "Before range is chosen in a round of combat, you may put the Shackles on any minion opposing the vampire with this card." requirement. Is that right, LSJ? [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote: > > In article <8HGI4.1466$%L6.8...@monger.newsread.com>, Sorrow > <cbo...@apdi.net> writes > >So by using the above reasoning, I can put my Charnas on my > >prey's minion and my prey in turn can transfer it to any of his > >other minions? > > No, because the "put on a [minion]" is an effect of playing it. True, but the reason it cannot be transferred is that it is a retainer, and retainers cannot be transferred. BTW: you could move Charnas to another ready vampire you control via Heidelberg Castle, if you were so inclined. > > Same with the Shackles of Enkidu? > > Specifically not, by errata. You still control them, so they cannot > pass it on. > > Hmmm.... Theoretically, by card text, it appears that I could give your > copy of, say, Agrippina the shackles, and then when Agrippina was in > combat with someone, move them across again, because I still control > them and fulfill the "Before range is chosen in a round of combat, you > may put the Shackles on any minion opposing the vampire with this > card." requirement. > > Is that right, LSJ? Shackles is odd - it serves as equipment between then time you equip with it and the time you shackle an opposing minion. After that, it serves as a shackling device - the minion with the equipment is affected as specified on card text (and cannot be used to shackle a minion opposing the shackled minion in combat). It could still be stolen by a friendly minion (who would then be shackled), since transferring equipment is done only with respect to the minions' controller, not with respect to the controller of the equipment. There are any number of ways to handle this card - none of them particularly card-text-following *and* logical/intuitive at the same time, sorry to say. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <38F1F6A5...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > ramst...@my-deja.com wrote: > > 6) Does Carrion Crows, Murder of Crows, Wolf Companion, Ghoul > > Retainer, Shade and Zombie cause damage if a Strike: Combat Ends is > > played? I say "No". Is this correct? > > "No" is correct. Ouch, i don't understand well. Your answer above means that if there's a S:Ce that ends a combat, then any other effect that applies "during strike resolution" is not resolved at all in that combat? Is this right? And if yes, why? The S:Ce is resolved anyway, why not with the other non-strike effects? Regards, Aemilianus, Prince of Rome. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8d066j$i8t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, tetragr...@my-deja.com writes >Your answer above means that if there's a S:Ce that ends a combat, >then any other effect that applies "during strike resolution" is not >resolved at all in that combat? Is this right? Any effect, like Wolf Companion, Carrion Crows, Shade or whatever, that says "During strike resolution" means "During the resolution of strikes which are not S:CE, not Dodge and not dealt with First Strike". 1) S:CE 2) S:Dodge 3) S:First Strike 4) S:Normal Strike <--- All that type of card resolves here [ quoted text not captured ]

tetragr...@my-deja.com wrote: > > In article <38F1F6A5...@white-wolf.com>, > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > ramst...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > 6) Does Carrion Crows, Murder of Crows, Wolf Companion, Ghoul > > > Retainer, Shade and Zombie cause damage if a Strike: Combat Ends is > > > played? I say "No". Is this correct? > > > > "No" is correct. > > Ouch, i don't understand well. > Your answer above means that if there's a S:Ce that ends a combat, > then any other effect that applies "during strike resolution" is not > resolved at all in that combat? Is this right? Yes. > And if yes, why? The S:Ce is resolved anyway, why not with > the other non-strike effects? Because or rulebook rules: [6.4.5 Strike Effects] S:CE pre-empts strike resolution just as it is reached. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <38F461F1...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > tetragr...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > In article <38F1F6A5...@white-wolf.com>, > > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > > ramst...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > > > 6) Does Carrion Crows, Murder of Crows, Wolf Companion, Ghoul > > > > Retainer, Shade and Zombie cause damage if a Strike: Combat Ends is > > > > played? I say "No". Is this correct? > > > > > > "No" is correct. > > > > Ouch, i don't understand well. > > Your answer above means that if there's a S:Ce that ends a combat, > > then any other effect that applies "during strike resolution" is not > > resolved at all in that combat? Is this right? > > Yes. > > > And if yes, why? The S:Ce is resolved anyway, why not with > > the other non-strike effects? > > Because or rulebook rules: [6.4.5 Strike Effects] > S:CE pre-empts strike resolution just as it is reached. Thanks for the clarifications, but: Is not "just a bit" complex all of this? Why complicate matters this way? Would not be better to have simply the S:CE to negate the other strike's and allow all the other non-strike effects to take place? Anyway, thanks. Aemilianus, Prince of Rome. > > -- > LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. > Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: > http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep > [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8d28vc$sl3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, tetragr...@my-deja.com writes >Why complicate matters this way? >Would not be better to have simply >the S:CE to negate the other strike's and allow >all the other non-strike effects to take place? No. If it did that, things would be even more complex, since it would fundamentally change the way that S:CE works. (What you're describing is what Dodge does, for instance.) Strike: Combat Ends ends the combat when it resolves - which is before everything else that goes on in strike resolution. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <ZeB1v9AC...@obeah.demon.co.uk>, James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In article <8d28vc$sl3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, tetragr...@my-deja.com > writes > >Why complicate matters this way? > >Would not be better to have simply > >the S:CE to negate the other strike's and allow > >all the other non-strike effects to take place? > > No. If it did that, things would be even more complex, since it would > fundamentally change the way that S:CE works. (What you're describing > is what Dodge does, for instance.) > > Strike: Combat Ends ends the combat when it resolves - which is before > everything else that goes on in strike resolution. > I see your point (that is, the "official" one too). However, i was refering about the text that appears in the concerned non-strike effects: it usually reads " [happens this] during strike resolution", and the easiest way to deal with such effects would be to resolve them during the final strike resolution (on the way the rounds is going to be over). That because i perceive a pair of resolving strikes (my and that of my opponents) to be included in a single strike resolution step/phase. Still, i don't get well the timing with these non-strike effects: do they inherits the "time resolution" from the using minion's strike? I mean, i got my Wolf Companion, my opponent got a Wolf too. I play a S:Ce:, my opponent plays nothing, does my opponent take the damage from my Wolf? And what if i got my wolf and play instead a first strike? Does my wolf damage applies togheter my first strike effect, then my would be opponent can damage me with his hand strike and his Wolf Companion? Regards and thanks. Aemilianus, Prince of Rome. > James Coupe (Prince of Mercia, England) > > Vampire: Elder Kindred Network > http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net http://www.zephyr.org.uk > [ quoted text not captured ]

tetragr...@my-deja.com wrote: > James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > > Strike: Combat Ends ends the combat when it resolves - which is before > > everything else that goes on in strike resolution. > > Still, i don't get well the timing with these non-strike effects: > do they inherits the "time resolution" from the using minion's strike? They (retainers, Carrion Crows, etc.) resolve during the initial normal (not "First Strike") strike resolution of the round. > I mean, i got my Wolf Companion, my opponent got a Wolf too. > I play a S:Ce:, my opponent plays nothing, > does my opponent take the damage from my Wolf? No. Your (or your opponent's) S:CE ends combat before "any damage dealt." [6.4.5] > And what if i got my wolf and play instead a first strike? The opponent would take 1 additional damage (from the Wolf) during the time in which a non-First Strike strike would resolve. [RTR 06-OCT-1994] > Does my wolf damage applies togheter my first strike effect, then > my would be opponent can damage me with his hand strike and his Wolf > Companion? Both Wolves and the normal (non-First Strike) hand strike would be resolved simultaneously. [ quoted text not captured ]