Q: Blood Brother Ambush

Blood Brother Ambush does 2R damage and can use inferior Potence cards. Since the BBA does _2R_ damage, this is ruled to be non-hand damage, correct? Therefore, only 1 or 2 Potence cards are actually of effective use to the BBA (destroy equipment strikes and Thrown Gate [for the maneuver]), right? P.P.S. I'd like to be wrong, but I don't think I am. --- Eric Pettersen pett "at" cgl "dot" ucsf "dot edu

Eric Pettersen wrote: > Blood Brother Ambush does 2R damage and can use inferior Potence > cards. Since the BBA does _2R_ damage, this is ruled to be non-hand > damage, correct? Therefore, only 1 or 2 Potence cards are actually > of effective use to the BBA (destroy equipment strikes and Thrown > Gate [for the maneuver]), right? > > P.P.S. I'd like to be wrong, but I don't think I am. It is perhaps possible to use "conventional" Potence strike cards, if you first set the hand damage with Torn Signpost to 2 and, afterwards, having a hand damage different from zero, be able to use hand strikes effectively. Else: You could use the other non-strike potence cards (Immortal Grapple, Disarm, Enhanced Strength...) but AFAIK if you don't use Torn Signpost BBA is unable to deal damage with his hands. Michael Beer

pe...@cgl.ucsf.edu.delete.this.except.junk.emailers (Eric Pettersen) wrote: > Blood Brother Ambush does 2R damage and can use inferior Potence > cards. Since the BBA does _2R_ damage, this is ruled to be non-hand > damage, correct? Therefore, only 1 or 2 Potence cards are actually > of effective use to the BBA (destroy equipment strikes and Thrown > Gate [for the maneuver]), right? Right. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Searchable database of official card text, errata, and rulings: http://deckserver.net/cgi-deckserver/rulemonger.cgi/powersearch -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

In article <6qokbn$18f$1...@cgl.ucsf.edu>, ЯЯЯЯ Яpe...@cgl.ucsf.edu.delete.this.except.junk.emailers (Eric Pettersen) wrote: > Blood Brother Ambush does 2R damage and can use inferior Potence > cards. Since the BBA does _2R_ damage, this is ruled to be non-hand > damage, correct? Therefore, only 1 or 2 Potence cards are actually > of effective use to the BBA (destroy equipment strikes and Thrown > Gate [for the maneuver]), right? > Unfortunately, you are mostly right. The BBA (along with the Ghouled Street Punk which has similar problems) can also use Torn Signpost, which will give him 2 hand damage, and make other Potence cards useful. -Chris [ quoted text not captured ]

vte...@wizards.com (LSJ) wrote: > Eric Pettersen wrote: > > Blood Brother Ambush does 2R damage and can use inferior Potence > > cards. Since the BBA does _2R_ damage, this is ruled to be non-hand > > damage, correct? Therefore, only 1 or 2 Potence cards are actually > > of effective use to the BBA (destroy equipment strikes and Thrown > > Gate [for the maneuver]), right? > > Right. > Michael Beer's post in this thread suggests a second question: does BBA have the option of not using the 2R damage and instead striking hands for zero? This would then allow Torn Signpost, Increased Strength, etc. to be effective for the BBA. --- Eric Pettersen pett "at" cgl "dot" ucsf "dot" edu (NeXTmail capable)

In article <6qokbn$18f$1...@cgl.ucsf.edu>, ЯЯЯЯ Яpe...@cgl.ucsf.edu.delete.this.except.junk.emailers (Eric Pettersen) wrote: > Blood Brother Ambush does 2R damage and can use inferior Potence > cards. Since the BBA does _2R_ damage, this is ruled to be non-hand > damage, correct? Therefore, only 1 or 2 Potence cards are actually > of effective use to the BBA (destroy equipment strikes and Thrown > Gate [for the maneuver]), right? > > P.P.S. I'd like to be wrong, but I don't think I am. Torn Signpost gives them a hand strike and then you can basically play nearly any other potence strike after that. They are actually quite useful. stan www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/5304 [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <6qq2ot$v7o$2...@cgl.ucsf.edu>, Eric Pettersen <pe...@cgl.ucsf.ed u.delete.this.unless.youre.a.junk.emailer> writes >does BBA >have the option of not using the 2R damage and instead striking hands for >zero? This would then allow Torn Signpost BBA by itself doesn't have a hand strike, even one for zero. Torn Signpost would give it one, as it would also do for Ghouled Street Thug. Playing a Torn Signpost would then allow a hand strike, which could be modified, say, with Undead Strength. -- James Coupe (Prince of Mercia) Change nospam to obeah to reply Vampire: Elder Kindred Network http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net

Eric Pettersen wrote: > vte...@wizards.com (LSJ) wrote: > > Eric Pettersen wrote: > > > Blood Brother Ambush does 2R damage and can use inferior Potence > > > cards. Since the BBA does _2R_ damage, this is ruled to be non-hand > > > damage, correct? Therefore, only 1 or 2 Potence cards are actually > > > of effective use to the BBA (destroy equipment strikes and Thrown > > > Gate [for the maneuver]), right? > > > > Right. > > Michael Beer's post in this thread suggests a second question: does BBA > have the option of not using the 2R damage and instead striking hands for > zero? This would then allow Torn Signpost, Increased Strength, etc. to > be effective for the BBA. Ugh. It just gets more and more complicated, eh? How's this: (new ruling) An ally with no (listed) hand damage has a default hand damage of zero. Any such ally can use Lucky Blow (for example) to strike (with hands) for 1. Blood Brothers can also, then, use Undead Strength to strike for 1, or use Pushing the Limit to strike for 2. etc. (So scratch my previous "right." answer above.) -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Searchable database of official card text, errata, and rulings: http://deckserver.net/cgi-deckserver/rulemonger.cgi/powersearch -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) wrote: : Eric Pettersen wrote: : > : > Michael Beer's post in this thread suggests a second question: does BBA : > have the option of not using the 2R damage and instead striking hands for : > zero? This would then allow Torn Signpost, Increased Strength, etc. to : > be effective for the BBA. : Ugh. It just gets more and more complicated, eh? : How's this: (new ruling) : An ally with no (listed) hand damage has a default hand damage of zero. : Any such ally can use Lucky Blow (for example) to strike (with hands) : for 1. : Blood Brothers can also, then, use Undead Strength to strike for 1, or : use Pushing the Limit to strike for 2. etc. Except, didn't you say recently that allies can't pay blood costs on minion cards? (So Undead Strength and Torn Signpost, yes, but Pushing the Limit, no.) Josh at least, I think that's what you said...

du...@newton.ruph.cornell.edu (Joshua Duffin) wrote: > LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) wrote: > : Blood Brothers can also, then, use Undead Strength to strike for 1, or > : use Pushing the Limit to strike for 2. etc. > > Except, didn't you say recently that allies can't pay blood costs on > minion cards? I may have - it's a pretty obvious rule, so I don't remember if I've actually said it recently or not. If I haven't, allow me to do so now: If you don't have blood, you cannot pay blood costs. And allies have life, not blood. > (So Undead Strength and Torn Signpost, yes, but Pushing > the Limit, no.) Except that the Blood Brothers card has explicit text overriding the "allies cannot pay blood cost since they have no blood" rule (for potence cards). [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Michael Beer's post in this thread suggests a second question: does BBA > > have the option of not using the 2R damage and instead striking hands for > > zero? This would then allow Torn Signpost, Increased Strength, etc. to > > be effective for the BBA. > > Ugh. It just gets more and more complicated, eh? > > How's this: (new ruling) > > An ally with no (listed) hand damage has a default hand damage of zero. > Any such ally can use Lucky Blow (for example) to strike (with hands) > for 1. > > Blood Brothers can also, then, use Undead Strength to strike for 1, or > use Pushing the Limit to strike for 2. etc. > > (So scratch my previous "right." answer above.) > Whoa... Cool. My first reaction was, "no, that's not how it works." But then I read the sig and say the '(new ruling)' text. Cool. That *does* make things much less complicated. -Chris [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > > I may have - it's a pretty obvious rule, so I don't remember if I've > actually said it recently or not. > > If I haven't, allow me to do so now: If you don't have blood, you cannot > pay blood costs. And allies have life, not blood. > > > (So Undead Strength and Torn Signpost, yes, but Pushing > > the Limit, no.) > > Except that the Blood Brothers card has explicit text overriding > the "allies cannot pay blood cost since they have no blood" rule (for > potence cards). OK, so with Taste of Vitae, what's the deal? These allies say "if a card would give them blood, give them life instead" (or some such), but they can't play Taste of Vitae since the card refers to "this vampire", right? Even with the text that says "they may play cards requiring inferior potence as a vampire of capacity 2", this only lets them pretend to be a vampire with potence cards, and since ToV isn't a potence card, they can't use it. Whew! James -- James Hamblin ham...@math.wisc.edu V:EKN FAQ Maintainer http://www.math.wisc.edu/~hamblin/FAQ.txt

LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) wrote: : du...@newton.ruph.cornell.edu (Joshua Duffin) wrote: : > (So Undead Strength and Torn Signpost, yes, but Pushing : > the Limit, no.) : Except that the Blood Brothers card has explicit text overriding : the "allies cannot pay blood cost since they have no blood" rule (for : potence cards). Whoooops. See what happens when I don't read the card text of *all* the cards in question before posting... (and I've been so good about it lately too; every time I've been saying something I kept rereading the texts to make sure they said what I thought they did.) Josh foolish mortal

James Hamblin <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote: > OK, so with Taste of Vitae, what's the deal? These allies say "if a > card would give them blood, give them life instead" (or some such), but > they can't play Taste of Vitae since the card refers to "this vampire", > right? Even with the text that says "they may play cards requiring > inferior potence as a vampire of capacity 2", this only lets them > pretend to be a vampire with potence cards, and since ToV isn't a > potence card, they can't use it. Right. They could play it, but it would have no effect. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Searchable database of official card text, errata, and rulings: http://deckserver.net/cgi-deckserver/rulemonger.cgi/powersearch -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <6qulfe$iql$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, vte...@wizards.com (LSJ) wrote: > James Hamblin <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote: > > OK, so with Taste of Vitae, what's the deal? These allies say "if a > > card would give them blood, give them life instead" (or some such), but > > they can't play Taste of Vitae since the card refers to "this vampire", > > right? Even with the text that says "they may play cards requiring > > inferior potence as a vampire of capacity 2", this only lets them > > pretend to be a vampire with potence cards, and since ToV isn't a > > potence card, they can't use it. > > Right. > They could play it, but it would have no effect. This is probably moot anyway, but are you sure they could play it? These allies have card text like this: "[This ally] may play cards requiring [discipline] as a vampire with inferior [discipline]." Or was ToV always usable my allies, but it just never had an effect? Mike -- Mike Bohlmann, MAIP - Prince of Urbana-Champaign Rules Survey - http://www.shout.net/~mbohlman/vekn/ [ quoted text not captured ]

mboh...@shout.net wrote: > vte...@wizards.com (LSJ) wrote: > > James Hamblin <ham...@math.wisc.edu> wrote: > > > OK, so with Taste of Vitae, what's the deal? These allies say "if a > > > card would give them blood, give them life instead" (or some such), but > > > they can't play Taste of Vitae since the card refers to "this vampire", > > > right? Even with the text that says "they may play cards requiring > > > inferior potence as a vampire of capacity 2", this only lets them > > > pretend to be a vampire with potence cards, and since ToV isn't a > > > potence card, they can't use it. > > > > Right. > > They could play it, but it would have no effect. > > This is probably moot anyway, but are you sure they could play it? These > allies have card text like this: "[This ally] may play cards requiring > [discipline] as a vampire with inferior [discipline]." Or was ToV always > usable my allies, but it just never had an effect? The latter, although the point is not very clear. Since it's not "Kindred Only" or "Requires a ready vampire" or something, I'm of the opinion that it can be played by any minion. And, since the only effect is on "this vampire", there is no effect when there is no "this vampire". -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <6qv5qg$95p$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, LSJ <vte...@wizards.com> writes >> This is probably moot anyway, but are you sure they could play it? These >> allies have card text like this: "[This ally] may play cards requiring >> [discipline] as a vampire with inferior [discipline]." Or was ToV always >> usable my allies, but it just never had an effect? > >The latter, although the point is not very clear. > >Since it's not "Kindred Only" or "Requires a ready vampire" or something, >I'm of the opinion that it can be played by any minion. And, since >the only effect is on "this vampire", there is no effect when there is >no "this vampire". However, I believe that I can't play the Necromancy ally recycler..... Compel the Spirit.... if my ally was one of the library entering mummies, because there is no ally in my ash heap to target. So, implicitly, I cannot play it. Would not a similar thing occur here, where I cannot play Taste of Vitae because it implicitly requires a vampire? [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <ve...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote: > LSJ <vte...@wizards.com> writes > >[Re: Taste of Vitae] > >Since it's not "Kindred Only" or "Requires a ready vampire" or something, > >I'm of the opinion that it can be played by any minion. And, since > >the only effect is on "this vampire", there is no effect when there is > >no "this vampire". > > However, I believe that I can't play the Necromancy ally recycler..... > Compel the Spirit.... if my ally was one of the library entering > mummies, because there is no ally in my ash heap to target. So, > implicitly, I cannot play it. > > Would not a similar thing occur here, where I cannot play Taste of Vitae > because it implicitly requires a vampire? Oooh. Inconsistency. Nice. :-) Another inconsistency, however, is that Strike: Destroy/Steal weapon has been ruled to be usable even if the opponent has no weapon. I'll put this topic on the list for RT review, to see how we want to resolve the inconsistencies. Thanks for pointing it out. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Searchable database of official card text, errata, and rulings: http://deckserver.net/cgi-deckserver/rulemonger.cgi/powersearch -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- [ quoted text not captured ]