The new Lucita [Anarchs set] and new card concepts

I have found the following card on Distrimagen's (the distributor of V:TES in Spain) website: LUCITA Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Lasombra [A strange pyramidal symbol below the clan symbol] Group: 2 Capacity: 8 Discipline: DOM FOR OBT cel pot Text: Advanced, Sabbat: Once each action Lucita performs, she may burn 2 blood to cancel a reaction card played by a vampire with capacity less than 6 as it is played (no cost is paid). [Strange square white symbol] Archbishop of Aragon. The card can be found here: http://www.distrimagen.es/catalogo/book.asp?referencia=WOC2511 Greetings, Damnans

[ quoted text not captured ] Looks fake. :P The discipline simbols have very low definition, inconsistent with the definition of the text - if it were a scan all the card should have the same definition. Also, a 'seam' can be seen at the top of the picture, it isn't perfectly aligned with the background. And I doubt WW would introduce 'Advanced' characters instead of taking advantage of the group mechanic. It might be real, but I wouldn't bet on it. Specially given your reputation for faking cards. ;) Flux

"Damnans" <damna...@ono.com> wrote in message news:3E69E00A...@ono.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Awesome, Advanced!!!?? Does that mean she contests with the normal independant Lucita? Or maybe she doesn't contest with the independent Lucita. Mucho Gusto! -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

It cannot be a fake. This is the official website of the V:TES distributor in Spain. Greetings, Pablo Alonso, V:EKN Prince of Palma de Mallorca (Spain) [ quoted text not captured ]

Damnans wrote: > I have found the following card on Distrimagen's (the > distributor of V:TES in Spain) website: > > LUCITA > Cardtype: Vampire > Clan: Lasombra > [A strange pyramidal symbol below the clan symbol] > Group: 2 > Capacity: 8 > Discipline: DOM FOR OBT cel pot > Text: > Advanced, Sabbat: Once each action Lucita performs, she > may burn 2 blood to cancel a reaction card played by a > vampire with capacity less than 6 as it is played (no > cost is paid). [Strange square white symbol] Archbishop > of Aragon. Kooky. Any of y'all Spanish speakers feel like translating the suplimentary text? I can kind of figure it out with my questionable 10th grade Spanish and common sense, but my questionable 10th grade spanish is really questionable... Peter D Bakija PD...@bigplanet.com http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6 "she tore down Paris on the tail of Thom Paine but the left wing's broken and the right's insane" -Bowie

On Sat, 8 Mar 2003, Flux wrote: > It might be real, but I wouldn't bet on it. > Specially given your reputation for faking cards. ;) Hah! Like he faked Xaviar last fall? What's next, accuse Damnans of faking the entire CE? :) -Matt

Peter D Bakija wrote: [...] > Kooky. Any of y'all Spanish speakers feel like translating the suplimentary > text? I can kind of figure it out with my questionable 10th grade Spanish > and common sense, but my questionable 10th grade spanish is really > questionable... Oh, sure ;-) In Anarchs, V:TES expansion, you will find: * A new sect to play with. * Gangrel come back to V:TES with am extended staff of vampires. * New rules increasing the options in crypt building and play. Knock down the walls! * Vampiric society favors privileged elders who claim their rule both over the world and Cain's younger children. But it is time for revolution! Bold and rebel Kindred have formed anarch gangs to oppose the power of their elders, and other old and wise rebels exploit the occasion to attempt to rule them all. * Anarchs and Gangrel join the Eternal Struggle. * Anarchs is the most recent expansion for Vampire: The Eternal Struggle. This box contains 36 booster packs, each of which with 11 cards. With more than 120 unique cards, V:TES players will have lots of new options and strategies available. SPANISH TEXT En Anarchs, ampliación para el juego de cartas V:TES encontrarás: * Una nueva secta con la que jugar. * Los Gangrel regresan a V:TES con un plantel ampliado de vampiros. * Nuevas reglas que aumentan las opciones en la construcción y juego de Criptas. ¡Derriba las murallas! * La sociedad vampírica favorece a los privilegiados antiguos, que reclaman su dominio tanto sobre el mundo como sobre los más jóvenes hijos de Caín. ¡Pero ha llegado la hora de la revolución! Osados y rebeldes Vástagos han formado bandas de anarquistas para oponerse al poder de sus mayores, y otros viejos y sabios rebeldes aprovechan la ocasión para intentar gobernarlos a todos. * Los anarquistas y los Gangrel se unen al Conflicto Eterno. * Anarquistas es la más reciente expansión para Vampire: The Eternal Struggle®. Este expositor contiene 36 sobres, cada uno con 11 cartas. Con más de 120 cartas únicas, los jugadores de Vampiro® tendrán a su disposición montones de nuevas opciones y estrategias. Greetings, Damnans

If that *is* real, then it looks like they've redesigned crypt cards once again. The green bar stops before the top, to leave room for the vampire name, and the disciplines start a bit up from the bottom (possibly to avoid the "silver dot" problem on sleeves?) And the title being listed last (I presume that the weird white box is a symbol to indicate 'title') is yet another inconsistency. Can anyone confirm anything from the VtM storyline that would show Lucita rejoining the Sabbat and becoming Archbishop of Aragon? (Where is Aragon, anyway?)

Jozxyqk wrote: [...] > Can anyone confirm anything from the VtM storyline that would > show Lucita rejoining the Sabbat and becoming Archbishop of Aragon? I found the following information about it: "Replacement at position of Archbishop of Madrid Archbishop Monçada of Aragon, Lasombra of 5.th generation, a Friend of Night and the most prominent member of Sabbat in Europe has been killed by Assamite assassin Fatima Al-Faqadi in 2001. At the Consistory of Sabbat archbishops a daughter of Monçada and an antitribu Lucita claimed her Sir's legacy and was appointed into his position. Sabbat obtained the second most important Lasombra antitribu this way.(CN:A, MS)" http://www.vampire.cz/gehenna.htm Monçada was Archbishop of Madrid, and, according to the text above, Lucita should becoma Archbishop of Madrid as well. > (Where is Aragon, anyway?) Aragon is a Spanish region. Not a city. But since the full name of Lucita is "Lucita of Aragon", which indicates nobility, "Aragon" might have been mistaken for a city. However WW's intention may be a different one. Who knows? Greetings, Damnans

>Can anyone confirm anything from the VtM storyline that would >show Lucita rejoining the Sabbat and becoming Archbishop of Aragon? >(Where is Aragon, anyway?) Actually, Lucita does rejoin the Sabbat and become the Archbishop of Aragon. IIRC, it's first hinted in Midnight Siege and then later explained in the Lasombra Trilogy Novel series. However... >If that *is* real, then it looks like they've redesigned crypt cards >once again. The green bar stops before the top, to leave room for the >vampire name, and the disciplines start a bit up from the bottom >(possibly to avoid the "silver dot" problem on sleeves?) >And the title being listed last (I presume that the weird white box is >a symbol to indicate 'title') is yet another inconsistency. If you ask me I still personally think it is a fake. As you noted, there are some design inconsistencies. In addition: For all of the CE vampires, the sect is in bold (it isn't for this Lucita). In addition, all titles are at the beginning right after the sect (not at the very end). One thing that really pissed me off (in a minor way) in CE was that titles were lower-cases. "bishop", "prince," etc. Lucita seems to go back to Capitalized Titles. In addition, the wording to "cancel" reaction cards seems to be rather inconsistent with cards currently in play. You'd expect a "burn a reaction card" or "cancel the effect of a reaction card" to put it more in line with similar cards. Just about all other cards also have the cost being retrieved instead of "no cost is paid." If White Wolf did decided to include the Advanced mechanic, I think this card would be a rather poor example of it. There really isn't that much different from the old Lucita. Same capacity, same disciplines. Different special and a new title. That's about it. You'd think that an Advanced vampire would differ much more. And if this were real, the Lasombra don't need *yet another* Archbishop (and only for 8 pool this time!). I personally think (and also hope that) this card is a fake. Of course, there have been cases in the past (Xaviar, Wind Dance) where things turned out to be true. But I just wouldn't bet on it IMHO. Halcyan 2

> > Can anyone confirm anything from the VtM storyline that would > show Lucita rejoining the Sabbat and becoming Archbishop of Aragon? > (Where is Aragon, anyway?) She recently joined the sabbat and became the archbishop of Aragon in the recent Lasombra Clan novel trilogy (first book title is Shards i think, forgot the rest)

On 08 Mar 2003 16:38:00 GMT, halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote: < snip: Lucita history> >>If that *is* real, then it looks like they've redesigned crypt cards >>once again. The green bar stops before the top, to leave room for the >>vampire name, and the disciplines start a bit up from the bottom >>(possibly to avoid the "silver dot" problem on sleeves?) >>And the title being listed last (I presume that the weird white box is >>a symbol to indicate 'title') is yet another inconsistency. That's the one odd thing I'd noticed. I think that all the current Vampires in print list their Title before any other data. >If you ask me I still personally think it is a fake. As you noted, there are >some design inconsistencies. In addition: I tend to agree. Can anyone else discern a group number on the card? Not there far as I can tell, and that would be rather odd considering every Vampire in CE had a group number. >For all of the CE vampires, the sect is in bold (it isn't for this Lucita). In >addition, all titles are at the beginning right after the sect (not at the very >end). One thing that really pissed me off (in a minor way) in CE was that >titles were lower-cases. "bishop", "prince," etc. Lucita seems to go back to >Capitalized Titles. In addition, the wording to "cancel" reaction cards seems >to be rather inconsistent with cards currently in play. You'd expect a "burn a >reaction card" or "cancel the effect of a reaction card" to put it more in line >with similar cards. Just about all other cards also have the cost being >retrieved instead of "no cost is paid." > >If White Wolf did decided to include the Advanced mechanic, I think this card >would be a rather poor example of it. There really isn't that much different >from the old Lucita. Same capacity, same disciplines. Different special and a >new title. That's about it. You'd think that an Advanced vampire would differ >much more. And if this were real, the Lasombra don't need *yet another* >Archbishop (and only for 8 pool this time!). Hard to say. One the other hand if WW decided to use an advanced mechanic, I would expect as little changes to a Vampire as possible. But just enough to make it distinctly different. >I personally think (and also hope that) this card is a fake. Of course, there >have been cases in the past (Xaviar, Wind Dance) where things turned out to be >true. But I just wouldn't bet on it IMHO. > > >Halcyan 2 BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

Howdy, > Can anyone confirm anything from the VtM storyline that would > show Lucita rejoining the Sabbat and becoming Archbishop of Aragon? > (Where is Aragon, anyway?) In the recent Lasombra clan trilogy, Lucita, in the process of clearing her name by overcoming a group of Lasombra Abyss summoners in concert with the pack that hunted her down in the first place, decides to become Sabbat. (That part of the story, at least, was pretty good, IMO.) Subsequently, she goes whole hog, becoming an adherent of the Path of Night, and laying claim to her (Finally Dead) sire's (Moncada's) city, Madrid. (The whole Path part was pretty nauseating, again IMO.) But, while the whole Path/Sabbat thing does seem to have strenthened Lucita and helped her to overcome the ennui that she suffered in the wake of Moncada's demise, it also seems to have functioned like a bad M.B.A. program, causing her to lose all ability to manage, while greatly increasing her delusion that she was good at it. She eventually gets driven out of Madrid by a variety of forces, but not before she's managed to kill just about everyone in her domain, including many of her allies and retainers. (Much of this stuff was just maddening to read; I guess it (and a lot of the earlier gratuitous killing) was to make the point that undeath is cheap in the Sabbat. Or maybe they just had some WoD plots to tie up and tacked them on, however unbelievably, at the end?) Anyway, as the series ends, Lucita and what remains of the 'hunting pack' have abandoned Madrid for her homeland of Aragon, where she has vowed to build a new Archbishopric from scratch. Thus, 'Archbishop of Aragon'. Has anyone else been really frustrated by the uneven quality of the clan novels and trilogies (Tremere, Lasombra). Both the latter started out really strong (all of this IMO, of course), and then degenerated in quality (story, writing, editing) at a rapidly accelerating pace. Seems like they were just trying (successfully) to hook me in the first book and a half, and then pushing out any old crap from then on once they'd pretty much guaranteed I'd buy the last book. The obvious result - I'm not planning to even start anymore trilogies. Hope that helps, Alex

Jozxyqk wrote: > If that *is* real, then it looks like they've redesigned crypt cards > once again. The green bar stops before the top, to leave room for the > vampire name, and the disciplines start a bit up from the bottom > (possibly to avoid the "silver dot" problem on sleeves?) > And the title being listed last (I presume that the weird white box is > a symbol to indicate 'title') is yet another inconsistency. I'm finding it a little odd that she doesn't have a group number. Might this be a library card? [ quoted text not captured ]

Fake or not, I hope she's reprinted with THAT picture.....hubba hubba... btw, someone should check on that picture...if it's one that can be gotten off the web rather easily then that might be a dead (pun intended) give away as to the validity of this "new" card. [ quoted text not captured ]

berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM wrote: > I tend to agree. Can anyone else discern a group number on the card? > Not there far as I can tell, and that would be rather odd considering > every Vampire in CE had a group number. There isn't one, as far as I can see, that certainly lends itself to the "Hmm, I'm not really buying it..." camp. It wouldn't make sense to not have a group number, unless the "advanced" mechanic stood in for the group number, or was a library card that replaced a crypt card. [ quoted text not captured ]

berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM wrote: [...] > Can anyone else discern a group number on the card? Yes. Group 2. If you save the image and open it in Photoshop or any program alike, and then zoom in the group area, you'll see a "2". ;-) Greetings, Damnans

[ quoted text not captured ] Of course not, that is ridiculous! I'm the one who faked the CE. ;) Flux

Pablo Alonso <pal...@mail.ono.es> wrote: > It cannot be a fake. This is the official website of the V:TES > distributor in Spain. > > > Greetings, > Pablo Alonso, V:EKN Prince of Palma de Mallorca (Spain) That doesn't mean much, unfortunately. Maybe the faker is a good friend of the webmaster, or he might have been given the image not knowing it was a fake ('Hey, do you have some picture we can put on the website?' 'Sure, take this...'). Either way, being up on an 'official' website does not make it true. Flux

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20030308113800...@mb-fj.aol.com>... > > >If that *is* real, then it looks like they've redesigned crypt cards > >once again. The green bar stops before the top, to leave room for the > >vampire name, and the disciplines start a bit up from the bottom > >(possibly to avoid the "silver dot" problem on sleeves?) > >And the title being listed last (I presume that the weird white box is > >a symbol to indicate 'title') is yet another inconsistency. > > > If you ask me I still personally think it is a fake. As you noted, there are > some design inconsistencies. In addition: > > For all of the CE vampires, the sect is in bold (it isn't for this Lucita). In > addition, all titles are at the beginning right after the sect (not at the very > end). One thing that really pissed me off (in a minor way) in CE was that > titles were lower-cases. "bishop", "prince," etc. Lucita seems to go back to > Capitalized Titles. In addition, the wording to "cancel" reaction cards seems > to be rather inconsistent with cards currently in play. You'd expect a "burn a > reaction card" or "cancel the effect of a reaction card" to put it more in line > with similar cards. Just about all other cards also have the cost being > retrieved instead of "no cost is paid." Given the usual variance in card text, that's very flimsy evidence indeed. Likewise, all the design inconsistencies could be the result of changes due to the CE design complaints. I do find the move of the title to the end very suspicious though. Even though I've noticed that the discipline symbols are not well aligned to each other, that and those small errors I noted first could conceivably be aliasing artifacts. > If White Wolf did decided to include the Advanced mechanic, I think this card > would be a rather poor example of it. There really isn't that much different > from the old Lucita. Same capacity, same disciplines. Different special and a > new title. That's about it. You'd think that an Advanced vampire would differ > much more. And if this were real, the Lasombra don't need *yet another* > Archbishop (and only for 8 pool this time!). > > I personally think (and also hope that) this card is a fake. Of course, there > have been cases in the past (Xaviar, Wind Dance) where things turned out to be > true. But I just wouldn't bet on it IMHO. I agree. Given WW's policy of not commenting on rumours, I'm afraid we may be left wondering for a while yet... Flux

berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM wrote: > >If you ask me I still personally think it is a fake. As you noted, there are > >some design inconsistencies. In addition: > > I tend to agree. Can anyone else discern a group number on the card? > Not there far as I can tell, and that would be rather odd considering > every Vampire in CE had a group number. It's there, though it's somewhat hard to see against the light background and with the site's text printed over it. I'm pretty sure current group text has a black outline that is missing here, but that could be a design change or an aliasing artifact. Flux

If the card is real it could be a kind of prototype image/design test as opposed to a finished article. Not sure I like the idea of advanced characters though. ------------------------- Love is what we're born with. Fear is what we learn here.

<snip> > [A strange pyramidal symbol below the clan symbol] Maybe it's an A from Advanced. LSJ would you be allowed to officially comment on this card? -Bram Vink

berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM wrote in message news:<3e6a3daf....@netnews.attbi.com>... > On 08 Mar 2003 16:38:00 GMT, halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote: > < snip: Lucita history> [snip] > I tend to agree. Can anyone else discern a group number on the card? > Not there far as I can tell, and that would be rather odd considering > every Vampire in CE had a group number. Isn't there a 2 in the corner? looks really strange to me...

"Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> escribió en el mensaje news:Lboaa.11994$F1.118@sccrnsc04... > If that *is* real, then it looks like they've redesigned crypt cards > once again. The green bar stops before the top, to leave room for the > vampire name, and the disciplines start a bit up from the bottom > (possibly to avoid the "silver dot" problem on sleeves?) > And the title being listed last (I presume that the weird white box is > a symbol to indicate 'title') is yet another inconsistency. > I'll throw in a theory upon why the title is last, and after sucha a symbol: Maybe that symbol is a new mechanic symbol that replaces all the text upon, say Ballard and Maxwell: That is: This vampiure can call a +1 stealth referendum to become ruler of *named city*, becoming achbishop or prince... It should explain that symbol and the fact that it's set up after other abilities, rahter than before. That won't become an inconsistency upon the whole system (just another symbol to remember upon)... perhaps we'll see lots of vamps with in-text praxis/crusade claiming. Also, it's group 2 (the aliasing and the name of the website covers part of it, but it's there. If any of you, suspicious ones, still believe this card as a fake (fact that doesn't disappoint me , but just found it funny) go and search the web for an illustrator who signs as Rk Pat (or something like that). I still remember the inquisition that burned this ng when some of us, here in spain found a xaviar, and someone in southern france an eye of hazimel. > Can anyone confirm anything from the VtM storyline that would > show Lucita rejoining the Sabbat and becoming Archbishop of Aragon? > (Where is Aragon, anyway?) It's in spain, a region, being its capital Zaragoza. It's north of the country, frontier with france (north) and catalonia (east) Yesterday i attended at the Praxis: zaragoza. And miraculously had won with a 75 cards rock cat deck. Tom, Mad&Co >

(SPOILER) Lucita in the Lasombra trilogy loses her purpose in life. She was always focused on foiling Moncada's schemes. Now that he is gone she lack purpose. She rejoins the Sabbat and tries to establish domain over Madrid. She fails miserably. She leaves Madrid and establishes domain over Aragon. [ quoted text not captured ]

jja....@hccnet.nl (Darky) wrote in message news:<93148a54.03030...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Either way it would be nice to see a better version of Lucita she just isn't that good for an 8 cap vampire. Giving her a title would really make her a lot better and would give the Lasombra even better voting power. Emile "we are an ape with a symbiotic relationship to a mushroom"

>Either way it would be nice to see a better version of Lucita she just >isn't that good for an 8 cap vampire. >Giving her a title would really make her a lot better and would give >the Lasombra even better voting power. Which is exactly the problem. The Lasombra are *already* a powerhouse when it comes to votes. With 2 Cardinals, 3 Archbishops, 1 Bishop, 1 Super-Priscus, and a vampire that can make other vampires Bishops, they easily outstrip any other Sabbat clan. No other clan has more than 1 Archbishop or Cardinal. The closest another clan comes to is probably the Tzimisce with 1 Cardinal, 1 Archbishop, 1 Bishop, and 2 Prisci. And of course the Lasombra also get Power Structure and Political Struggle too. Not to mention Baltimore Purge. The Lasombra are already too powerful when it comes to Sabbat titles. Giving them an 8-cap Archbishop would just be too much. Halcyan 2 sick of sleazy lasombra

>If any of you, suspicious ones, still believe this card as a fake (fact that >doesn't disappoint me , but just found it funny) go and search the web for >an illustrator who signs as Rk Pat (or something like that). I still >remember the inquisition that burned this ng when some of us, here in spain >found a xaviar, and someone in southern france an eye of hazimel. I find it rather amusing that it's the Spanish who are complaining about an inquisition... =P Halcyan 2

But remember that that is the nature of the Sabbat. The Lasombra tend to hold most of the power in the sect. A few other titled non-Lasombra Sabbat vamps would be nice at some point. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <20030309173704...@mb-cd.aol.com>, Eryx <colind...@aol.com> writes: >But remember that that is the nature of the Sabbat. The Lasombra tend to hold >most of the power in the sect. Roleplay concerns have never, and should never, overbalance card-playing concerns, in terms of balance and structure. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Hi! I'm Nancy Drew! You must be the Hardy Boys! 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

"Darky" <jja....@hccnet.nl> wrote in message news:93148a54.03030...@posting.google.com... > <snip> > > [A strange pyramidal symbol below the clan symbol] > > Maybe it's an A from Advanced. I'm pretty sure it's an archbishop's hat (the proper name of which currently eludes me). John

On Mon, 10 Mar 2003 18:14:11 +1100, John Alston Campbell wrote: >> Maybe it's an A from Advanced. > >I'm pretty sure it's an archbishop's hat (the proper name of which currently >eludes me). That's a mitre and it doesn't look like it. BTW, that word caused trouble in Shadowfist. The card Thunder Bishop was given an art description saying that the character was attacking with his mitre. The designer really meant a crozier (the metaphorical shepherd's staff) but the artist didn't figure this out and so showed the bishop attacking someone using his hat! The symbol appears to be an A. For Advanced, Archbishop or Anarch? Andrew

>That's a mitre and it doesn't look like it. BTW, that word caused >trouble in Shadowfist. The card Thunder Bishop was given an art >description saying that the character was attacking with his mitre. >The designer really meant a crozier (the metaphorical shepherd's >staff) but the artist didn't figure this out and so showed the bishop >attacking someone using his hat! Speaking of mitre, one time I got a question "wrong" on a test. They apparantly wanted the carpenter type of mitre (the joint type) when I was thinking about the silly little hat! =P Halcyan 2

>Roleplay concerns have never, and should never, overbalance card-playing concerns, in terms of balance and structure. > It doesn't. Thats their edge in the game. I don't see an overbalance. You want a clan that is pretty damn good at something, the Lasombra are that. Politics and/or combat are their fortae. You could point out the Ventrue as having an overbalance of the political arena in the Camarilla, but I don't see that as a problem either. However you look at the differences between the RPG and the CCG, the Lasombra are the true political power within the Sabbat and I see no reason why that shouldn't be carried over. It is a game based on V:tM after all. [ quoted text not captured ]

Damnans <damna...@ono.com> wrote in message news:<3E69E00A...@ono.com>... > I have found the following card on Distrimagen's (the > distributor of V:TES in Spain) website: More speculative BS... Look for art by RK Post and you'll see that he's contracted to do some work for white-wolf. Its definitely his art, as its his style. As for actually seeing that art on any of his websites... I have yet to find such a thing. ~SV

Eryx wrote: >>Roleplay concerns have never, and should never, overbalance card-playing > > concerns, in terms of balance and structure. > > > It doesn't. Thats their edge in the game. I don't see an overbalance. You want > a clan that is pretty damn good at something, the Lasombra are that. Politics > and/or combat are their fortae. Then why is it that most Lasombra decks I've been seeing lately are S&B? :) Lasombra are already the second best 'pure' S&B deck, they have decent combat and are the best voters with no presence. They don't need any more voting power, if they get more votes there's a high risk of unbalancing. > You could point out the Ventrue as having an overbalance of the political arena > in the Camarilla, but I don't see that as a problem either. The Ventrue don't have a stealth discipline, nor any significant in-clan combat (apart from Island of Yaros). > However you look at the differences between the RPG and the CCG, the Lasombra > are the true political power within the Sabbat and I see no reason why that > shouldn't be carried over. It is a game based on V:tM after all. They already are the best sabbat clan in politics, they don't need any more titles. Flux

> > They already are the best sabbat clan in politics, they don't need any > more titles. They would surely be the best Sabbat clan. Only problem: No good mid-size vamps. The disciplines of the mid-size are not harmonious. ( Hope you´ll get what I mean) Andreas Nusser andreas...@vekn.de www.vekn.de

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying that as the dominant political power behind the Sabbat you have to expect them to have a number of titled vamps. [ quoted text not captured ]

I've taken a closer look at the new Lucita card, especially the background. Here are some (more) of my thoughts on the matter: If I were to fake the card and wanted to have the background behind the card's title (over the green strip), I would either fill in the blank to match the rest of the background or stretch the background over the whole card and fill in the resulting blanks. What I wouldn't do is shift the background to the left, thereby creating a large white strip along the right margin and another to the left of the picture, that would have to be filled in. Yet, that is what was done here. Whoever made this card shifted the background to the left, and to do so he had to have a full background image (and not just the one from an existing card - and remember that at this point there is only one card with that background). If this was faked, the faker went to a lot of trouble to recreate the full background, and that doesn't seem likely given the other graphical flaws in the picture - why go to all the trouble with the background and then get sloppy with the discipline simbols? Aliasing artifacts and/or a design prototype seems more a likely explanation for those flaws. Of course, it's still possible that someone got hold of a full background image. Anyway, to me this seems much more likely to be real now. Does anyone here know someone inside Distrimagen, so they might check how they got that hold of that image? Flux

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030308113800...@mb-fj.aol.com... [Josh Feuerstein wrote] > >If that *is* real, then it looks like they've redesigned crypt cards > >once again. The green bar stops before the top, to leave room for the > >vampire name, and the disciplines start a bit up from the bottom > >(possibly to avoid the "silver dot" problem on sleeves?) > >And the title being listed last (I presume that the weird white box is > >a symbol to indicate 'title') is yet another inconsistency. All of these changes are things that people suggested on the newsgroup when they saw the CE layout, aren't they? (Well, except for the symbol next to the title thing.) So WW might be responding to our concerns? This is evidence against the card being real? ;-) > If you ask me I still personally think it is a fake. As you noted, > there are some design inconsistencies. In addition: C'mon. It's on a European distributor's website. Why would they fake it when they are very likely indeed to be actually receiving promo materials from WW with this kind of thing in them? As for image quality, it wouldn't have to be a scan of a physical card (and I expect it wouldn't be - if WW had printed the cards already, they'd be selling 'em, right?). It could easily be an electronic approximation of what the card's supposed to look like... > For all of the CE vampires, the sect is in bold (it isn't for this Lucita). It looks bold to me. It's kind of hard to tell because of (a) the image quality and (b) the "www.distrimagen.es" text imposed over the image. > In addition, all titles are at the beginning right after the sect > (not at the very end). They could be changing that. > One thing that really pissed me off (in a minor way) in CE was > that titles were lower-cases. "bishop", "prince," etc. Lucita > seems to go back to Capitalized Titles. If I remember right, LSJ told me that this was a matter of White Wolf style: only specific titles are capitalized; they're not capitalized when referred to as a group. So Prince of Chicago, Tremere Justicar, and Archbishop of Aragon are all capitalized, but "only princes may cast votes in this referendum" would not be. > In addition, the wording to "cancel" reaction cards seems to > be rather inconsistent with cards currently in play. You'd expect > a "burn a reaction card" or "cancel the effect of a reaction card" > to put it more in line with similar cards. Just about all other > cards also have the cost being retrieved instead of "no cost is > paid." Or, LSJ might be trying to clean up the wordings and make them better. :-) You may remember some discussion here about what arguments could arise from the phrasing "cost being retrieved"... likewise, "cancel" is much better than "burn" since all library cards are normally burned when played. "Cancel the effect" seems to me exactly equivalent to "cancel" and takes more words. :-) > If White Wolf did decided to include the Advanced mechanic, I think this card > would be a rather poor example of it. There really isn't that much different > from the old Lucita. Same capacity, same disciplines. Different special and a > new title. That's about it. You'd think that an Advanced vampire would differ > much more. And if this were real, the Lasombra don't need *yet another* > Archbishop (and only for 8 pool this time!). I think making her an Archbishop makes Lucita pretty interesting. Plus, the anti-Deflection ability is, I would say, fairly kick- ass. Sure, the Lasombra don't need more Archbishops, but this one doesn't have Presence, so I hardly think she's going to break them. > I personally think (and also hope that) this card is a fake. Of > course, there have been cases in the past (Xaviar, Wind Dance) > where things turned out to be true. But I just wouldn't bet on it > IMHO. I really doubt it's a fake. I mean sure, it could be. But I'd find that a lot more likely if it were just on some random website rather than on Distrimagen's site. Josh fake it till you make it

>>If White Wolf did decided to include the Advanced mechanic, I think this > > card > >>would be a rather poor example of it. There really isn't that much different >>from the old Lucita. Same capacity, same disciplines. Different special and > > a > >>new title. That's about it. You'd think that an Advanced vampire would > > differ > >>much more. And if this were real, the Lasombra don't need *yet another* >>Archbishop (and only for 8 pool this time!). > > > I think making her an Archbishop makes Lucita pretty interesting. > Plus, the anti-Deflection ability is, I would say, fairly kick- > ass. > IMO the advanced stuff, if equal to L5R advanced characters, would rock. Imagine, having all characters with 3 different versions ( including different disciplines, titles even capacity). The game would become a lot more diversetive. Of course version has to contest each other. -- Andreas Nusser www.vekn.de a.nu...@vekn.de

Joshua Duffin <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > "Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message > news:20030308113800...@mb-fj.aol.com... > [Josh Feuerstein wrote] >> >If that *is* real, then it looks like they've redesigned crypt cards >> >once again. The green bar stops before the top, to leave room for the >> >vampire name, and the disciplines start a bit up from the bottom >> >(possibly to avoid the "silver dot" problem on sleeves?) >> >And the title being listed last (I presume that the weird white box is >> >a symbol to indicate 'title') is yet another inconsistency. > All of these changes are things that people suggested on the > newsgroup when they saw the CE layout, aren't they? (Well, > except for the symbol next to the title thing.) So WW might > be responding to our concerns? This is evidence against the > card being real? ;-) The problem is that they really need to just pick a layout and stick with it. If I were them, and wanted to create another "new" layout for the cards, I'd wait until I introduced a new Group, thus giving a *reason* for the cards to look distinctively different. (Then again, by this logic, I would have had the Group 2 vamps in CE printed with the "old look" and only the new Expansion symbol, which would have made the precons look a little odd.) Then again, maybe this is only the new layout for this "Advanced" type of card. What we do know is that Xaviar has already been printed, and looks like the rest of the Group 3 vamps... (or is the "Anarchs" version of Xaviar going to differ in this way, just like other promos have differed slightly with their in-set versions?) We just won't know until they officially release promo cards/prerelease stuff, or unless LSJ decides to break White Wolf policy and confirm/deny (which he won't). Even if this is a change to crypt cards in general, I don't personally see it as a negative thing. Just another obstacle for newbies, because it's one more exception to "all cards look like X".[1] Although, admittedly, not as major of one... But it doesn't *solve* problems (like the possible shifting up of disciplines to get above the silver dot) if *all* the cards being used don't look the same. Another argument in favor of Grouping, that by Group 4 or 5, all the vampires in a crypt may be able to have consistent layouts and cardbacks for the first time... :) [1] This is actually one of my problems with the CE rulebook, by the way, because it makes no mention of the "old look" of cards [crypt or library]...

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20030310041901...@mb-mu.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Right, listen up people. Copy this pic of Lucita into something like Paint, and zoom in nice and close to the bottom left of the pic (where the disciplines will go). You will notice there has been a cover up job here - this means either the thing is a fake after all, she has an extra SUPERIOR discipline (inlikely) or this is a fake after all. You decide. Also, why would WW all of a sudden decide to denote Archbishop at the bottom of the text box - unless that symbol would denote an ability similar to Maxwells - may call a vote to become.... Thoughts? Marty Eternal pessimist

> "Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> escribió en el mensaje > news:Lboaa.11994$F1.118@sccrnsc04... [snip] > Yesterday i attended at the Praxis: zaragoza. And > miraculously had won with > a 75 cards rock cat deck. Care to post that ? Rob -- Direct access to this group with http://web2news.com http://web2news.com/?rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: > and cardbacks for the first time... :) er, that sentence should read "...for the first time since the Jyhad printing". :)

On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Flux wrote: > Then why is it that most Lasombra decks I've been seeing lately are S&B? :) I agree with you, that there is no reason to leave "S+B" off the list of things the Lasombra excel at. > Lasombra are already the second best 'pure' S&B deck, they have decent > combat and are the best voters with no presence. They don't need any more > voting power, if they get more votes there's a high risk of unbalancing. I don't see it. They are huge. They generally lack fortitude, or any other action multiplier (Eternal Vigilance is *awesome*, but it's no action multiplier). They are Sabbat, and Camarilla sect-specific cards still blow Sabbat out of the water. > The Ventrue don't have a stealth discipline, nor any significant in-clan > combat (apart from Island of Yaros). True, but they have Freak Drive, Majesty, and damage prevention. They have Dominate *and* Presence *and* cheap titles. Hubba hubba. It's just too stale an archetype to really capture my interest, but I disagree that even old school Law Firm decks are behind the metagame curve. Without a doubt, +1 stealth is no longer enough to get an action through. Instead of farting around with stealth tricks, a Ventrue deck that just overwhelms its neighbors with minion actions, every last one of which is something that really must be blocked, should do well. Combat is always risky, but they have better tools available than any other clan to walk away from it, and that Prince probably only cost you three pool anyway. All in all, I'd say top tier damage prevention in the Ventrue, and top tier combat from the Lasombra about cancel out. It's that action enhancement that still puts the Ventrue way out in front of the Lasombra. David Cherryholmes Prince of Durham, NC

> > [snip] > > > Yesterday i attended at the Praxis: zaragoza. And > > miraculously had won with > > a 75 cards rock cat deck. > > > Care to post that ? > > Rob Deck Name: Kitties Created By: Tom Description: Put in play a gargoyle and a tremere. put in play as many cats as posible, and use all those slave tricks and vis/tha cards. Most of the time, via charisma and soul of the earth, the rock cats hit the table for free. Armor of terra-daring the dawn also grants a fair posibility to put them in play. Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 13, Max: 28, Avg: 5,58) ---------------------------------------------- 2 Ublo-Satha cel FOR POT VIS 7, Gargoyle 3 Muaziz aus dom for THA 7, Tremere 1 Carna AUS DOM THA 7, Tremere, Primogen 2 Saxum FOR pot pre VIS 6, Gargoyle 2 Fidus for tha vis 4, Gargoyle 1 Ehrich Weiss dom tha 3, Tremere 1 Mustafa Rahman dom 2, Tremere Library: (75 cards) ------------------- Master (15 cards) 1 Academic Hunting Ground 1 Arcane Library 4 Blood Doll 2 Charisma 2 Fame 4 Memories of Mortality 1 Tension in the Ranks Action (10 cards) 4 Armor of Terra 2 Arson 4 Soul of the Earth Action Modifier (8 cards) 2 Conditioning 4 Daring the Dawn 2 Skin of the Chameleon Reaction (12 cards) 6 Deflection 2 Delaying Tactics 4 Wake with Evening's Freshness Combat (20 cards) 2 Bond with the Mountain 4 Disarm 2 Flow Within the Mountain 4 Immortal Grapple 3 Skin of Steel 3 Superior Mettle 2 Thrown Sewer Lid Ally (10 cards) 8 Rock Cat 2 Vagabond Mystic

jja....@hccnet.nl (Darky) wrote in message news:<93148a54.03030...@posting.google.com>... > <snip> > > [A strange pyramidal symbol below the clan symbol] > > Maybe it's an A from Advanced. > LSJ would you be allowed to officially comment on this card? > > -Bram Vink Maybe A of Anarchs?? :-p. Maybe , but if anyone think that the card is a fake , well , really he/she need a doctor , How u think that a official distribuitor can offers A FAKE of a card?? are u nuts??? otherwise , if i faked a card, don´t introduce nothing odd or strange to the popular format , so anyone that see the card dont think abouit it as a fake. Lucita de Aragon wrote a letter to Shacha Vikos telling her the decistion of take part as sabbat from now on . U can read about it in the WW suplement for Wampire the Masquerada : Midnight siege. another !Lasombra that take part as Sabbat!!! Best regards.

> > They already are the best sabbat clan in politics, they don't need any > > more titles. > > > They would surely be the best Sabbat clan. Only problem: > > No good mid-size vamps. The disciplines of the mid-size are not > harmonious. ( Hope you´ll get what I mean) Not quite right in my opinion. He said "the best sabbat clan in politics" NOT "the best sabbat clan overall". If you want to build a Stealth/Bleed oriented Toolbox-Deck it is quite a problem that you do not have 6/7 caps with all in-clan disciplines superior. For a Vote/Bloat deck it just doesnt matter because you need titles and titled vamps with 3 Superior In-Clan disciplines are always >= 8 caps. You might also want to include some weenies for early Cardinal Benediction or the like but all the weenies have obt for stealth so what more do you want ? Lasombra ARE definitely the best Sabbat Vote Clan. just my 0,02 EUR -- johannes walch

>All of these changes are things that people suggested on the >newsgroup when they saw the CE layout, aren't they? (Well, >except for the symbol next to the title thing.) So WW might >be responding to our concerns? This is evidence against the >card being real? ;-) Well, like Martin Cubberly, I'm an eternal pessimist. I always tend to be more on the cynical side... =P Halcyan 2 better safe than sorry

Tom,Mad&Co wrote: > If any of you, suspicious ones, still believe this card as a fake > (fact that doesn't disappoint me , but just found it funny) go and > search the web for an illustrator who signs as Rk Pat (or something > like that) Name's R.K. Post, a famous illustrator for magic cards, wasteland Ccg iirc and other trading card games =)

[ quoted text not captured ] http://www.rkpost.net/magic/magic.htm the style is his,the art certainly is not a fake ... and the card seems perfect to me =)

Some nice artwork on there. Shame theres nothing VTES wise to have given us a clue with regards the Lucita card. [ quoted text not captured ]

>> They already are the best sabbat clan in politics, they don't need any >> more titles. > > >They would surely be the best Sabbat clan. Only problem: > >No good mid-size vamps. The disciplines of the mid-size are not >harmonious. ( Hope you´ll get what I mean) Which is, IMO, one of the few things that somewhat keeps the Lasombra in check. Halcyan 2

>It doesn't. Thats their edge in the game. I don't see an overbalance. You >want >a clan that is pretty damn good at something, the Lasombra are that. Politics >and/or combat are their fortae. >You could point out the Ventrue as having an overbalance of the political >arena >in the Camarilla, but I don't see that as a problem either. No, that's because the Ventrue *don't* have as much of an overbalance in the political arena as the Lasombra do. The Ventrue only have 2 Justicars (though you can't have more than 1 of them in your crypt), and 1 IC Member, the same as all of the other Cam clans ('cept Gangrel). Yeah, they have a ton of Princes in Group 1/2 but much fewer in 2/3. Overall, they have 8 Princes while the Toreador have an impressive 7 as well. They have 5 Primogen but a lot of clans have a lot more (Toreador have 7). And of course this is all based off of a larger pool (39) of vampires. 16 out of 39 of their vampires are titled. Compare that to 17/40 for the Toreador, 14/39 for the Tremere, 16/39 for the Nosferatu, 13/39 for the Malkavians, and 15/39 for the Brujah. So you see, the number of titled Ventrue vampires is comparable to that of most of the other Camarilla clans. The Ventrue have a slight edge in that they have a few more quality titles (Princes as opposed to crappy Primogen), but they aren't that significantly better off than the others. Compare it to the Lasombra however. 7/16 for them. 5/16 for the !Brujah, 4/18 for the !Gangrel, 5/16 for the !Malkavians, 7/16 for the !Nosferatu, 6/16 for the !Toreador, 4/14 for the !Tremere, 5/16 for the Tzimisce, and 4/16 for the Tzimisce. !Nosferatu and !Toreador may appear to be potent number-wise, but that's due to a large number of Bishops (4 and 3 respectively). So they're actually no better than most of the other Sabbat clans except with some extra Bishops. The Lasombra on the other hand have an extra Cardinal, they have the super Priscus, and 2 extra Archbishops. And once again, considering the much smaller numbers of Sabbat vampires, the lead is that much more significant. I don't mind the Ventrue or Lasombra having a slight edge in titles to give a nod to the backstory, but I believe that in the case of the Lasombra, they are far too overbalanced when it comes to titles. Grossly so. And of course this doesn't mention that several of the Lasombra (Tobias, Alvaro, Francisco, and Ambrosio) have the Presence that the Ventrue enjoy. Power Structure is a rough substitute for Ventrue Headquarters. Yes, the Ventrue do have the Freak Drive advantage. But the Lasombra have Obtenebration, which gives them the combat defense of Presence, some combat offense (especially Entombment), decent intercept, and a lot of valuable stealth (which the Ventrue are really lacking). They also get a permanent stealth card (Elysian Fields) and Political Struggle (which works especially well with Arms + Entombment). Halcyan 2

Damnans wrote: > I have found the following card on Distrimagen's (the > distributor of V:TES in Spain) website: The official word: The image is one sent by White Wolf to several distributors. It went out in advance of our scheduled website preview (which is still not yet begun). It went out unintentionally early. So early that it went out before the final proofing stage, so there's no guarantee that the card text will match the printed card, although it is likely very close. There may be one or two additional cards in the same situation, so don't be surprised if more images spring up. We will reserve the official discussion of the new symbols and terminology and actual card text (if it varies) for the scheduled preview (the exact starting date of which is still not disclosed). But in the meantime, you're free to speculate as you please, of course. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

As for the little blob next to the title, heres some conjecture for you. If you look at the symbol, especially expanded slightly (but not too close, pixellation ruins the detail), it looks to me like one card laid on top of another... Which would explain both the symbol and the misplacing of the title - the Symbol mean: "If you place this version of Lucita over the normal version of Luctia," then the reward, "she becomes Archbishop of Aragon.". Otherwise, people would have no incentive for playing both versions of the character in their crypts. The reason the title is placed /at/ the bottom is that that character might be confused as being an Archbishop regardless of overlay otherwise... I would imagine that once you bring out 'Basic' Lucita, there will be a new mechanic to allow 'Advanced' Lucita to be placed over the basic version at minimal or no cost during your influence phase, as long as she was in your uncontrolled region. The overarching storyline and developing character was what attracted me to L5R - to add that mechanic (which I love) to Jyhad (which I love) seems to me to be the next logical step for White wolf - as they now have their own expanding story arch with developing characters, why not include that in their game? Just idle speculation, but interesting nonetheless - I'm curious to see what others think. Kennicky

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > So early that it went out before the final proofing stage, so > there's no guarantee that the card text will match the printed > card, although it is likely very close. > But in the meantime, you're free to speculate > as you please, of course. Speculative question: So, it's just the card text that is in question, and the "look" of the card is something we should expect in Anarchs? Would it just be for this special "Advanced" type of card, or for all crypt cards? Is it also going to be a change to Library cards (shifting the "card type" symbol down, maybe shifting the blood/pool cost up) ?

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3E6CECB5...@white-wolf.com>... > Damnans wrote: > > I have found the following card on Distrimagen's (the > > distributor of V:TES in Spain) website: > > The official word: > > The image is one sent by White Wolf to several distributors. > It went out in advance of our scheduled website preview (which > is still not yet begun). It went out unintentionally early. > > So early that it went out before the final proofing stage, so > there's no guarantee that the card text will match the printed > card, although it is likely very close. > > There may be one or two additional cards in the same situation, > so don't be surprised if more images spring up. > > We will reserve the official discussion of the new symbols and > terminology and actual card text (if it varies) for the > scheduled preview (the exact starting date of which is still > not disclosed). But in the meantime, you're free to speculate > as you please, of course. So many secrets with you WW people... What are you? A government or a corporation? ~SV PS: Wait... there's no difference sometimes.

On Mon, 10 Mar 2003 20:23:23 GMT, Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: >LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> So early that it went out before the final proofing stage, so >> there's no guarantee that the card text will match the printed >> card, although it is likely very close. Fair enough. Curious to see the final version of this. >> But in the meantime, you're free to speculate >> as you please, of course. Who us? :-) >Speculative question: > >So, it's just the card text that is in question, and the "look" of the >card is something we should expect in Anarchs? Would it just be for this >special "Advanced" type of card, or for all crypt cards? Is it also going >to be a change to Library cards (shifting the "card type" symbol down, >maybe shifting the blood/pool cost up) ? I will be disappointed if WW retains the Green Stripe on Crypt cards. Vamps really should have that coppertone stripe as used in Aaron Steele's CE mockup. BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

Now that we've got the official word, I know that there's going to be a ton of speculation happening while I wait for Google to update, so apologies if this duplicates comments made by others... five_mi...@hotmail.com (Rich H.) wrote in message news:<c5310562.03031...@posting.google.com>... > If you look at the symbol, especially expanded slightly (but not too > close, pixellation ruins the detail), it looks to me like one card > laid on top of another... I can see that. > Which would explain both the symbol and the misplacing of the title - > the Symbol mean: "If you place this version of Lucita over the normal > version of Luctia," then the reward, "she becomes Archbishop of > Aragon.". > > Otherwise, people would have no incentive for playing both versions of > the character in their crypts. > > The reason the title is placed /at/ the bottom is that that character > might be confused as being an Archbishop regardless of overlay > otherwise... > > I would imagine that once you bring out 'Basic' Lucita, there will be > a new mechanic to allow 'Advanced' Lucita to be placed over the basic > version at minimal or no cost during your influence phase, as long as > she was in your uncontrolled region. Makes sense to me. So, let's carry this speculation a little further. First of all, we're assuming this is a crypt card, right? You can bring out either one or the other, with a bonus if you bring out the advanced on top of the basic. This means they can both go in the crypt, which makes any crypt that uses multiple copies of the same vamp VERY happy, since now if you've got all three of your Lucitas sitting in your initial draw they're not necessarily just dead weight. But I've got some questions: 1. I agree that the mechanic will probably be "minimal or no cost", but let's try and work that out. I know there are lots of people here who are EXTREMELY good at working out the cost/benefit balance, so how much SHOULD the Advanced version of Lucita cost? We're adding an Archbishop title (1 point) and a quirky special (1/2 point? 1 point?) and presumably losing Lucita's Basic-version special (-1/2 point?). Cost is a card slot in the crypt, the ability to get the card into your uncontrolled region (we assume) and...what? 1 pool? No pool? My guess is no pool, but I'm not an expert on the cost-balancing thing. 2. Somewhat related to the first question - Advanced Lucita (okay, someone needs to come up with a handy way of denoting that) is the same cap as Basic Lucita. Do we think there might be some Advanced versions that are greater capacities? How would that work with our speculative game mechanic? 3. Okay, so here's the big one: Who ELSE gets an Advanced version? The Advanced version is clearly marked as being from the same group as the Basic, so grouping is not a restriction. It is potentially possible that they could in fact make Advanced versions of Group 1 vamps, because the Advanced version is still playable even if you don't have the original. But would they? In any case, I'm guessing no more than one Advanced version vamp per clan, but for which clans? Do we include the independents? Who would you like to see out there? (For those of you who follow the storyline, you can probably make good guesses that at least some of these will - like Lucita - be based on the books.) Let's see some lists! - Volya42 And when IS the web preview, anyway? Should start soon, based on the "late spring" target release, right?

>Advanced Lucita (okay, >someone needs to come up with a handy way of denoting that) aLucita a-Lucita +Lucita Lucita+ ^Lucita @Lucita

[ quoted text not captured ] In addition, if White Wolf is going to do this, I highly suggest that it look into the future and prepare for an Advanced x 2, Advanced x 3 version, etc. By coming up with a system now, it simplifies things in the future so they don't have to go to Extra-Advanced, Super-Advanced, or any other such foolishness. Halcyan 2

maybe the advanced mechanic is to make v:tes more like pokemon! "I choose you, my evolved Lucita!" Just to draw in the younger playerbase... -Bram Vink

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030310194438...@mb-dh.aol.com... > In addition, if White Wolf is going to do this, I highly suggest that it look > into the future and prepare for an Advanced x 2, Advanced x 3 version, etc. By > coming up with a system now, it simplifies things in the future so they don't > have to go to Extra-Advanced, Super-Advanced, or any other such foolishness. > > Halcyan 2 How many extra rules and expansions can they add to this game before it turns into MtG? I am very concerned. Thalles

[ quoted text not captured ] That's an unfair summation. Legend of the Five Rings has been using personality variations since it's inception. Going to give them the benefit of the dought until they start posting more info in the previews. The biggest downside to adding more rules, etc.. to VTES (IMHO) is the inclusion of yet more symbols to keep track of on a card. >-Bram Vink BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

> How many extra rules and expansions can they add to this game before it > turns into MtG? I am very concerned. > You're not the only one....

Voyla32 said... > But I've got some questions: > 1. I agree that the mechanic will probably be "minimal or no cost", > but let's try and work that out. I know there are lots of people here > who are EXTREMELY good at working out the cost/benefit balance, so how > much SHOULD the Advanced version of Lucita cost? We're adding an > Archbishop title (1 point) and a quirky special (1/2 point? 1 point?) > and presumably losing Lucita's Basic-version special (-1/2 point?). > Cost is a card slot in the crypt, the ability to get the card into > your uncontrolled region (we assume) and...what? 1 pool? No pool? > My guess is no pool, but I'm not an expert on the cost-balancing > thing. Speculating again - here what I would make it cost, were I designing this mechanic (which, after all, is what we're speculating about, right?) First question is: is the cost of a card slot enough? Theorising that you can overlay for free in your influence phase (so the cost of an overlay is just the card slot), lets look at the possibilities. First, if you are looking to play with an overlaid A-Lucita, the ideal deal for you includes a B-Luctia and an A-Luctia amongst your starting 4 vamps. However, that does mean that in 2 turns time or so, when the B-Lucita becomes controlled and you overlay the A-Lucita, you only have 2 uncontrolled vamps in comparison to everyone elses 3 - starving your options. You also have to consider the demerits of getting only one or the other in your deal. If you pull the B-Lucita first, no problem - you can always overlay the A-Version if she comes out of your crypt anyhow - but chances are, if you're buying a vampire from your crypt, you're looking for a new player for your vampire army - pulling the A-Lucita wont give you that, especially if your current Lucita is sat in Torpor. And finally, if you pull your A-Lucita first, and bring it into play, I woul imagine it's not possible to 'underlay' the B-Lucita beneath the A-Lucita, meaning that bringing out the A-Lucita first renders every B-Lucita in your crypt useless until the A-Lucita is burned. So, the cost of an A-Version is: When used ideally, it limits initial vampire options for the benefit of an improved vampire early; when used with moderate success, it provides a potentially better vampire (dependant on the status of the original in play) at the cost of denying you an additional minion; and when used with no success, it gives you a slightly worse, overcosted version of a vampire who also renders at least one other card in your crypt useless until it leaves play. Does it really need any more cost than that? I think the A-Characters own mechanics provide enough of a cost to mean that nothing else (pool expenditure, loss of transfers) is strictly necessary for game balance. > 2. Somewhat related to the first question - Advanced Lucita (okay, > someone needs to come up with a handy way of denoting that) is the > same cap as Basic Lucita. Do we think there might be some Advanced > versions that are greater capacities? How would that work with our > speculative game mechanic? Since the capacity of the vampire is meant to represent its Generation, which raises only through the forbidden art of diablerie or intense magic, I doubt we will see many with increased Caps, though its possible all the same. What would be interesting would be to show vampires with expanding disciplines, for example: Victoria Ash (Basic) aus cel dom PRE, Primogen, 6 Cap, Tap a younger ready vampire at +1 Stealth (D) action. could have an A version which looked like this... Victoria Ash (Advanced) aus cel dom PRE, 6 Cap, While Victoria Ash is ready, other methuselahs may not make (D) actions against any of your minions except this one. <Overlay> This minion may play AUS and DOM cards on Superior. Which not only illustrates the characters discipline costs increasing as they gain experience, but creates a different, yet still balanced and playable A-Victoria for people who don't want to use the basic version. > 3. Okay, so here's the big one: Who ELSE gets an Advanced version? > The Advanced version is clearly marked as being from the same group as > the Basic, so grouping is not a restriction. It is potentially > possible that they could in fact make Advanced versions of Group 1 > vamps, because the Advanced version is still playable even if you > don't have the original. But would they? In any case, I'm guessing > no more than one Advanced version vamp per clan, but for which clans? > Do we include the independents? Who would you like to see out there? > (For those of you who follow the storyline, you can probably make good > guesses that at least some of these will - like Lucita - be based on > the books.) Let's see some lists! There's no reason why /every/ character shouldn't eventually get an A-Version, or then an A+ Version, if the trend continues that way. Almost certainly, WW will release A-Versions for the characters of their own who are currently impacting on the WoD (Such as Fatima Al-Faquida, Marcus Vitel, Jan Pieterzoon, Victoria Ash, Ramona, etc etc) first, simply because ideas for their cards are presented by their actions in the books... Just more idle speculation, but its all good fun... Rich

LSJ wrote: > Damnans wrote: > > I have found the following card on Distrimagen's (the > > distributor of V:TES in Spain) website: > > The official word: > > The image is one sent by White Wolf to several distributors. > It went out in advance of our scheduled website preview (which > is still not yet begun). It went out unintentionally early. > > So early that it went out before the final proofing stage, so > there's no guarantee that the card text will match the printed > card, although it is likely very close. I guess that it means that the layout is already finished? If that's not the case, may I suggest that on crpyt cards, the sidebar should not be green but rather amber instead? That would make it easier to distinguish between crypt and library cards when *not* looking at the back. Hm, the following is just *very wild* speculation (and I have to state that I in no way have any information about the matter): It could quite well be that WW has already adopted the above mentioned suggestion (we cannot see the back of the card, can we? ;) ), and that we are looking at a *library* card! Now on to speculations - what would that imply? Carl

> That's an unfair summation. Legend of the Five Rings has been using > personality variations since it's inception. The Doomtown CCG also used 'experienced' and 'experienced 2' versions of the same dude cards to represent the evolving metagame and game backstory. > Going to give them the benefit of the dought until they start posting > more info in the previews. Well there's no reason to think that any new mechanics will be handled with anything but the due care and attention they deserve. > The biggest downside to adding more rules, etc.. to VTES (IMHO) is the > inclusion of yet more symbols to keep track of on a card. Well I'm sure one or two more symbols won't be that difficult to remember :) Regards, Mike Nudd VEKN Prince of London

[ quoted text not captured ] To keep with the "! means anti because programmers understand it" paradigm, how about "Lucita++" ?

On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:43:43 -0000, Mike Nudd wrote: >> That's an unfair summation. Legend of the Five Rings has been using >> personality variations since it's inception. > >The Doomtown CCG also used 'experienced' and 'experienced 2' versions of the >same dude cards to represent the evolving metagame and game backstory. Indeed. Shadowfist has revised version of characters too but they don't get a special designator - they just have uniqueness auctions (= contest) in the usual way. Heroclix has multiple versions of many characters like Wolverine and Elektra. They have a uniqueness rule too but, amusingly, it doesn't make it clear whether Wolverine #149 (katana) is the same as Wolverine #171 (berserk). And trying to decide whether Mr Fixit (grey Hulk) clashes with Bruce Banner is one for the serious comic buffs. My experience is that this is a can of worms unless it's planned well. It is fun though and I like the new pic of Lucita. Andrew

Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> wrote: > Heroclix has multiple versions of many characters like Wolverine and > Elektra. They have a uniqueness rule too but, amusingly, it doesn't > make it clear whether Wolverine #149 (katana) is the same as Wolverine > #171 (berserk). And trying to decide whether Mr Fixit (grey Hulk) > clashes with Bruce Banner is one for the serious comic buffs. I thought HeroClix didn't have a contestation problem; that you could use as many copies of the same hero as you wanted, due to comic book weirdness (parallel universes, clones, parallel universe clones from the future...) Has this changed?

Rich H. wrote: (snip non-speculating stuff) > Speculating again - here what I would make it cost, were I designing > this mechanic (which, after all, is what we're speculating about, > right?) Well, assuming you can overlay an advanced version of a vampire on top of the original, I would personally think it would have no pool cost to do so. A cost of 4 transfers would be appropirate, if anything. I would think, based on the appearance of Lucita, that other well-known vampires from the storyline would also see some advanced action (most likely Fatima al-Faqati). I would love to see an Advanced Anatole! Anatole is already one of my favorite vampires to use, but an "Anatole-Adv" would be super cool! But that's just my biased Malkavian opinion. :) t!MmY-Adv, the new and improved mad inker

> I guess that it means that the layout is already finished? If that's not > the case, may I suggest that on crpyt cards, the sidebar should not be > green but rather amber instead? That would make it easier to distinguish > between crypt and library cards when *not* looking at the back. Yes. And please make the bars for Master cards grey. They were very distinguishable from library cards in the earlier sets but in CE they hide perfectly between them. With CE I have overlooked far too many times a Ventrue Headquarters or similiar. -- johannes walch

Johannes Walch wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Seconded! :) Carl

"t!MmY" <The_...@yahoo.com> wrote > > Well, assuming you can overlay an advanced version of a vampire on top > of the original, I would personally think it would have no pool cost > to do so. A cost of 4 transfers would be appropirate, if anything. Not sure if anyone has considered this yet but... what if this card is a *library* card rather than a crypt card? It would function as a crypt card once in play but only after its played. Kind of like Embrace or Create Gargoyle. Might work. Cheers, WES

[ quoted text not captured ] Sounds a little tricky to me. What happens to the original Lucita? Does she burn? Is she removed from the game? If she burns, can I Redeem her Lost Soul or even worse, try some kind of Soul Gem trick? If she's removed from the game, then what happens if the Advanced Lucita burns? Is she treated like a crypt card in my ashheap? Probably not. The questions are rhetorical, of course. I'm sure the design team took these things into consideration. If this is a library card, then I suspect the old Lucita would stay in play with the new card on top of her. Possession tricks would fetch the old Lucita. Seems like the simplest way to handle it would to have the Advanced version still be a crypt card that contests with the old version. What's the advantage of making it a library card? -Matt

>How many extra rules and expansions can they add to this game before it >turns into MtG? I am very concerned. What does this mean? I'm pretty sure WotC isn't going to care for a stand alone expansion Jyhad which has as its main mechanics vampire subtribes, allies, voting, et al. Biter BB2 Creature - Gangrel Vampire When Biter deals combat damage to any creature, destroy that creature at end of turn. 2/2 Goblin Reporter R2 Creature - Goblin Ghoul R, T: Look at target player's hand. 1/1 False Accusation Instant Political Action (you must tap an untapped vampire you control to play a political action) For every two vampires you control, tap target creature.

>Seems like the simplest way to handle it would to have the Advanced >version still be a crypt card that contests with the old version. I agree. I hope that advanced vamps come as crypt cards. It would be a lot easier to have them like that (and contest by name) than to have them as a library card. ------------------------- Love is what we're born with. Fear is what we learn here.

>> That's an unfair summation. Legend of the Five Rings has been using >> personality variations since it's inception. > >The Doomtown CCG also used 'experienced' and 'experienced 2' versions of the >same dude cards to represent the evolving metagame and game backstory. Babylon 5 and Wheel of Time both had replacement as a mechanic for characters. In some cases, replacements could be played as a normal character, in some they had to replace another character. Tomb Raider had upgrades. Highly explored concept within the realm of CCGdom. >> The biggest downside to adding more rules, etc.. to VTES (IMHO) is the >> inclusion of yet more symbols to keep track of on a card. > >Well I'm sure one or two more symbols won't be that difficult to remember :) There may be other CCGs that outrank it (Dune?), but I rank V:TES as the most complicated CCG for a newbie to learn behind Firestorm. Learning curve flattens out quite a bit at a certain point, but more symbols isn't a path towards expanding the player base.

Eryx wrote: (skipping some of what Eryx wrote...) > > However you look at the differences between the RPG and the CCG, the Lasombra > > are the true political power within the Sabbat and I see no reason why that > > shouldn't be carried over. It is a game based on V:tM after all. Flux responded: > They already are the best sabbat clan in politics, they don't need any more > titles. As it has been pointed out, Lucita is lacking the "Archbishop of Aragon" title. Lucita-Adv isn't explicitly titled until, I suspect, she is "advanced" from the old Lucita. I mean, look at the "white square", you'll see it has a "grey square" beneath it. Hm... sort of looks like a new card over top of an old card to me... -t!MmY, the Mad Inker

"Carl Pilhatsch" <carl.pi...@chello.at> wrote in message news:3E6E1375...@chello.at... [ quoted text not captured ] I also find it very hard to distinguish the new-format master card from the other CE cards in my hand. Making a bigger contrast in colour would be extremely helpful IMHO :) Having said that, I'm guessing the Anarchs is already with the printers (or on it's way) and so unless WW incorporated any of our suggestions from before (when CE first came out) it's too late now to start making requests such as this... :/ [ quoted text not captured ]

"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote in message news:20030311205051...@mb-ms.aol.com... > >> The biggest downside to adding more rules, etc.. to VTES (IMHO) is the > >> inclusion of yet more symbols to keep track of on a card. > > > >Well I'm sure one or two more symbols won't be that difficult to remember :) > > There may be other CCGs that outrank it (Dune?), but I rank V:TES as the most > complicated CCG for a newbie to learn behind Firestorm. Learning curve > flattens out quite a bit at a certain point, but more symbols isn't a path > towards expanding the player base. Hmm I guess you never played Heresy: Kingdom Come then (now OOP). That CCG made V:tES look like snap.. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

> Johannes Walch wrote: > >> Yes. And please make the bars for Master cards grey. They were very >> distinguishable from library cards in the earlier sets >> but in CE they hide >> perfectly between them. With CE I have overlooked far too >> many times a >> Ventrue Headquarters or similiar. > > Seconded! :) Thirded :o) Most annoying. Rob -- Direct access to this group with http://web2news.com http://web2news.com/?rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

"Mike Nudd" <mi...@vekn.org.uk> wrote in message news:JGDba.12406$Vx2.950784@wards... [ quoted text not captured ] I loved that game. Mog was my favorite. -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

"The Bard of Crete" <tlo...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message news:Xreba.36511$wA2.1...@twister.austin.rr.com... > > How many extra rules and expansions can they add to this game before it > > turns into MtG? I am very concerned. > > > You're not the only one.... Must.... Resist..... Okay I can't. How in the world does adding advancements to the vampires make this game any more complicated than it already is. I have to say that this game is at its simplest form since I started. Let me list the horrors we have gone through to get here. 1)9+ pages of errata that have since be reprinted in their correct form 2) The original Jyhad rulebook which was so poorly written that no two groups read it the same 3) Agg damage changing then changing back 4) Two different games described in the same rulebook, and they didn't even play remotely the same 5) 90 Political Action decks 6) a netrep who hated the game 7) 3 years of no support and the list goes on..... The piddly iddly bitty Advancement rule is not going to kill the game nor make it like Magic..... How would it make it like Magic? Answer me that. I would love to know how adding an advancement rule makes it like Magic. I don't see an Advancement rule in Magic. So how does it make it like Magic? Answer me that. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Carl Pilhatsch" <carl.pi...@chello.at> wrote in message news:3E6E1375...@chello.at... [ quoted text not captured ] Truely a game losing mechanism if there was ever one incorporated. [ quoted text not captured ]

"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:v6vqs3a...@corp.supernews.com... > > "The Bard of Crete" <tlo...@satx.rr.com> wrote in message > news:Xreba.36511$wA2.1...@twister.austin.rr.com... > > > How many extra rules and expansions can they add to this game before it > > > turns into MtG? I am very concerned. > > > > > You're not the only one.... > > How would it make it like Magic? Answer me that. > I would love to know how adding an advancement rule makes it like Magic. I > don't see an Advancement rule in Magic. So how does it make it like Magic? > > Answer me that. > _I_ never stated that it would. _I_ mearly stated that I was concerned about any new rules. But I have reserved any further judgement (as you can see from my statement) until such time as I've seen how the new rule (if there is one) effects the game (if at all).

"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:v6vqs3a...@corp.supernews.com... > Okay I can't. How in the world does adding advancements to the vampires > make this game any more complicated than it already is. I have to say that > this game is at its simplest form since I started. Let me list the horrors > we have gone through to get here. > > 1)9+ pages of errata that have since be reprinted in their correct form > 2) The original Jyhad rulebook which was so poorly written that no two > groups read it the same > 3) Agg damage changing then changing back > 4) Two different games described in the same rulebook, and they didn't even > play remotely the same > 5) 90 Political Action decks > 6) a netrep who hated the game > 7) 3 years of no support > > The piddly iddly bitty Advancement rule is not going to kill the game nor > make it like Magic..... How would it make it like Magic? Answer me that. > I would love to know how adding an advancement rule makes it like Magic. I > don't see an Advancement rule in Magic. So how does it make it like Magic? > > Answer me that. > I have printed out a 41 page document of 8 point font writing detailing the clarifications and errata and rulings on individual cards in the game. So players already need a tome on the side to interpret each card. Now we keep adding in more symbols and more rules. Where exactly does that lead? It leads to more and more expansions. The way MtG went several years ago. Can anybody tell me how many expansions MtG has had? I lost count ever since I stopped playing the game back at Ice Age. And what happens when new expansions come out? The tendency is to get players to buy the new expansion by filling them with cards they want. What do players want? Overpowered cards. We now have a Lucita with a built in ability that is better than a Perfect Clarity. And to top it off it has new rules associated with it. How does the game change across expansions? Let's take dominate for example. The biggest thing about dominate was that it was not a combat discipline at all. It gave bleed, bleed modifiers, cards to stop minions from blocking bleeds, and bleed defence. Then in Dark Sovereigns they added in Thoughts Betrayed. That was a combat card, but really was only useful in combination with another combat discipline or some sort of weapon. Still all good. We could take control of locations with Kine Dominance. We already had Far Mastery, and then got Mind Rape in Sabbat. So before we could control allies and retainers, now we had limited control of vampires too. Ok, kinda logical and acceptable right? Makes sense given we could take permanent control of torpored vampires with graverobbing. I even don't have a problem with Denial of Aphrodite's Favour or with Clio's Kiss. The first is a dual discipline card only, and the second is not useful enough to warrant playing if you are not using temporis. Now somebody please explain to me why Absorb the Mind was made the way it is at inferior dominate? There is absolutely no reason to play a normal old fashioned strike dodge if all the vampires in your crypt have dominate and you don't play any allies that you may want to be dodging with. Ok, maybe somebody might Mind of a Child you or hit you with a withering, but really the ability to replace that dodge when you play it far outweighs the chance somebody will deprive you of the ability to use disciplines. So dominate now has a combat card that is usable on its own, with the very useful ability of stopping your vampires getting hit, and that is better than the card available for generic use by all minions. Wasn't the point of the inferior version of the alternate discipline just to allow cycling of the card in decks using the funky bloodlines discipline? What happened in this case? Am I exagerating? The focus of disciplines is dramatically changing over the expansions. Animalism has turned into a significant combat discipline instead of being more about retainers. And now it gives more intercept as well. A single card can alter the power of the entire discipline, as was evident with Scorpion Sting. How long will it be until those one or two cards come out that break it all? Only a matter of time. Would it be a new rule? Maybe Slaves, Circles, Flight, Scarce, and Cold-Iron Vulnerability aren't enough added terminology. Maybe we need more and more and more. Maybe we need master out of turns that can be played on your own turn. Maybe we need advanced Vampires, and triple discipline cards, and goblins on pogo sticks. Maybe we need every discipline to do the same thing, with potence giving intercept and presence giving deflections. And maybe just maybe people like me are entitled to be concerned about the future of the game without being harrassed by people that unwittingly accept the mandates of corporate power. Thalles

In message <b4p5jk$u3v$1...@enyo.uwa.edu.au>, The Horror <tdem...@anhb.uwa.edu.au> writes: >Overpowered cards. We now have a Lucita with a built in ability that is >better than a Perfect Clarity. And to top it off it has new rules >associated with it. Better for some version of better. What's also ludicrous is that you're claiming it's overpowered when you *haven't even seen the rules*. How are Advanced characters going to work? Are they going to cost pool? Are they going to cost deck slots? Are they going to cost, say, a master phase action? Are they going to cost influence phases? Maybe you have to take actions to "advance" your character? Who knows? Then, you haven't even read the card: Once each action Lucita performs, she may burn 2 blood to cancel a reaction card played by a vampire with capacity less than 6 as it is played (no cost is paid). That is not outright better than Perfect Clarity, as eny fule kno. Perfect Clarity lasts for the duration of the entire action. Superior Perfect Clarity also affects highly useful combat cards (specifically, Majesty and friends). Perfect Clarity's cost can be reduced by use of Ankara Citadel - a nicely useful card for many Tremere decks, even if sometimes dropped in the skim. Perfect Clarity can be used by your whole deck, if they have Thaumaturgy, whereas Lucita's supposed advanced special can't be used by anyone else. (Though, with the proposed text, you could start an action, cancel a reaction and Mask it over.) But, of course, it's clearly and obviously better than Perfect Clarity, when you don't even know how much it's going to cost to bring into the game at all, let alone the relative flexibilities of the effects. >How does the game change across expansions? Let's take dominate for >example. The biggest thing about dominate was that it was not a combat >discipline at all. It gave bleed, bleed modifiers, cards to stop minions >from blocking bleeds, and bleed defence. Then in Dark Sovereigns they added >in Thoughts Betrayed. This is often regarded as a poor design decision. >That was a combat card, but really was only useful in >combination with another combat discipline or some sort of weapon. Still >all good. We could take control of locations with Kine Dominance. We >already had Far Mastery, and then got Mind Rape in Sabbat. Again, it's worth bearing in mind that the writers of Sabbat were not avid players. The lead designer - LSJ - is a clearly heavily involved player, very knowledgeable of the current state of play. >So before we >could control allies and retainers, now we had limited control of vampires >too. Ok, kinda logical and acceptable right? Makes sense given we could >take permanent control of torpored vampires with graverobbing. I even don't >have a problem with Denial of Aphrodite's Favour or with Clio's Kiss. The >first is a dual discipline card only, and the second is not useful enough to >warrant playing if you are not using temporis. Actually, Clio's Kiss is kinda interesting. It's an innate +1 stealth action, which are fun. >Now somebody please explain to me why Absorb the Mind was made the way it is >at inferior dominate? There is absolutely no reason to play a normal old >fashioned strike dodge if all the vampires in your crypt have dominate and >you don't play any allies that you may want to be dodging with. Okay, two caveats so far. It insists upon a mono-Dominate crypt (possible, but not guaranteed in many decks), it can't be played by allies - who are pretty useful these days or, at least, better. Those aren't entirely insignificant. Now, true, if I was designed Absorb the Mind today, *I* wouldn't give it to Dominate. But at the same time, it's not a huge game breaker. >So dominate >now has a combat card that is usable on its own, with the very useful >ability of stopping your vampires getting hit, Bear in mind that many pro-combat strategies have been empowered. And who knows what's planned for the Gangrel in Anarchs? >and that is better than the >card available for generic use by all minions. That's true of many, many disciplined cards. If you discount the restriction of the discipline, they're almost all better than the disciplineless variant. That's why we don't discount the restriction of the discipline, usually. >Wasn't the point of the >inferior version of the alternate discipline just to allow cycling of the >card in decks using the funky bloodlines discipline? What happened in this >case? Just to? Who can say. It's certainly true that it's one thing that was being done. However, the Design Team are certainly capable of running together several different aims. >new rule? Maybe Slaves, Circles, Flight, Scarce, and Cold-Iron >Vulnerability aren't enough added terminology. Each of which takes about three seconds to look up, and only Slaves are particularly complex. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Hi! I'm Nancy Drew! You must be the Hardy Boys! 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

It's good to see that WW seem to have taken on board some of the design suggestions from the players. The problem is, that with the apparent redesigning of Anarch expansion cards, there will now be four different design variants in the game (Jyhad, VTES, CE, Anarch) - and how much more bewildering will it become for new players? Not to mention how much of a mess decks can look when we need to include all these different types. Of course, WW should (a) not have changed the VTES/Sabbat-era design (who was ever complaining about it?), and (b) if they did, then they should have got us players to ask for our opinion beforehand. This has all been thoroughly discussed/ranted over before. It's all too late now, but I really went off the idea of buying many new cards upon seeing the CE, and yet another design change isn't going to make things any better. Although I know the functionality of the cards remains the same and that (ideally) the game remains just as fun and challenging, I do think that retaining some uniformity contributes towards a pleasing aesthetic.

In article <v6vnvrs...@corp.supernews.com>, XZealot <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote: [h:kc] >I loved that game. Mog was my favorite. It was all about Kushiel. Oh yeah. Well, that and getting as many Puppeteered Grigori into play as possible, for ultra cheez win. gomi if anyone wants my old h:kc cards, let me know -- Peace is generally good in itself, but it is never the highest good unless it comes as the handmaid of righteousness; and it becomes a very evil thing if it serves merely as a mask for cowardice and sloth, or as an instrument to further the ends of despotism or anarchy. --Theodore Roosevelt

"The Horror" <tdem...@anhb.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message news:b4p5jk$u3v$1...@enyo.uwa.edu.au... [ quoted text not captured ] I assumee you are refering to the Errata, Rulings, and Clarifications page from White Wolf. It is unfortunant that the English language is so flexible that two different people reciting the exact same words can have different, and in fact, opposite meanings. Such is the nuances of language. VTES uses more language to describe the functions of individual cards than any other game. This achievement allows much more flexibility in the game and it think it is this flexibility that we all enjoy so much. A Although it is a shame that the initial cards were poorly written and balanced when under that auspices of WOTC. But those were the days of genesis. That has be corrected for the most part in the more recent printings. Now we > keep adding in more symbols and more rules. Where exactly does that lead? > It leads to more and more expansions. The way MtG went several years ago. > Can anybody tell me how many expansions MtG has had? I lost count ever > since I stopped playing the game back at Ice Age. And what happens when new > expansions come out? The tendency is to get players to buy the new > expansion by filling them with cards they want. What do players want? > Overpowered cards. We now have a Lucita with a built in ability that is > better than a Perfect Clarity. And to top it off it has new rules > associated with it. The problem with Magic and all their expansions was that they bought into the whole war of escalation idea. For the most part, decks that won in the beginning would not win now. With VTES on the other hand, I would say that the theory of those decks are still quite viable even if they do not function exactly the same. Let me make this clear. I think you are wrong. The number of expansions has no impact upon the quality of a game. The contents of those expansions have a huge impact on the quality of a game. I would say that anyone who has been around since the JYHAD days will tell you, that the quality of this game has improved dramatically since the beginning. The expansions and rulings have everything to do with that. Credit should be given where it is due. I think VTES is a great game. [ quoted text not captured ] I don't think Absorb the Mind is a game breaking card. I think decks that can beat Dodge can beat the outferior of Absorb the Mind. Decks that can't beat dodge cannot beat the outferior of Absorb the Mind. I don't see it as being a game changing card. I have played against it and I have crushed it. I do not fear it. It does nothing for a mono-Dominate deck that Dodge was not already doing. > Wasn't the point of the > inferior version of the alternate discipline just to allow cycling of the > card in decks using the funky bloodlines discipline? What happened in this > case? Actually, the purpose of outferiors is so that you can use a bloodline and mix it with a clan and not suffer by jamming on the card. To answer your question about," What happened in this case?" Nothing happened in this case. It is a replacable Dodge. How many dodges do you normally see played in one combat? One? Trap, Additional Strikes, Presses, anti-dodge cards still beat this card. > Am I exagerating? Yes, grossly The focus of disciplines is dramatically changing over > the expansions. Animalism has turned into a significant combat discipline > instead of being more about retainers. And now it gives more intercept as > well. A single card can alter the power of the entire discipline, as was > evident with Scorpion Sting. How long will it be until those one or two > cards come out that break it all? Only a matter of time. If that happens I am sure rulings will be put into place to "unbreak" them. Would it be a > new rule? Maybe Slaves, Circles, Flight, Scarce, and Cold-Iron > Vulnerability aren't enough added terminology. Maybe we need more and more > and more. Maybe we need master out of turns that can be played on your own > turn. We already have two, Absolution of the Diabolist and Gangrel Conspiracy. Again, you are wrong. Maybe we need advanced Vampires, and triple discipline cards, and > goblins on pogo sticks. Maybe we need every discipline to do the same > thing, with potence giving intercept and presence giving deflections. And > maybe just maybe people like me are entitled to be concerned about the > future of the game without being harrassed by people that unwittingly accept > the mandates of corporate power. Boo Hoo.... You forgot to mention goose-stepping Nazi peons showing up at your house to tell you how to play. I sympathize with you on one hand, but on the other hand, you are full of shit. You can play what ever you want in this game. Do so. Deal with individual problems as they arise rather than lump them all together and exclaim, "I can't deal with all of these at the same time". You will never have to deal with every problem in VTES at the same time, so what is the point of complaining about them all at once. That is like taking the compendium of laws for which ever country you are in and saying "the country is going down the drain because we have all these laws". If you don't like a law deal with it individually, don't try to throw the baby out with the bathwater. [ quoted text not captured ]

"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:v71vq9m...@corp.supernews.com... > The number of expansions has no impact upon the quality of a game. The > contents of those expansions have a huge impact on the quality of a game. I > would say that anyone who has been around since the JYHAD days will tell > you, that the quality of this game has improved dramatically since the > beginning. The expansions and rulings have everything to do with that. > Credit should be given where it is due. I think VTES is a great game. I wouldn't exactly say that the quality of the game has improved since the days of Jyhad (1994-1995). Well, if you count NRA/No Vote Push as an improvement, then it has improved since the *very* beginning, I guess. :-) But I don't think the game as a whole is *better* than it was with just the Jyhad set. The game then was pretty damn great. What it is, is *bigger*. There's a huge amount more variety in the game than there was then, and yeah, this is definitely a good thing in my eyes, and I wouldn't want to go back. But I'm not sure that quantity of different weird stuff automatically makes the game "of higher quality" per se. Other than that, I totally agree with your points, especially the one that Absorb the Mind is such a tiny improvement over the Dodge card that it is light years away from making Dominate any more broken than it already was. :-) Josh needs to absorb some mind himself

> Although I know the functionality of the cards > remains the same and that (ideally) the game remains just as fun and > challenging, I do think that retaining some uniformity contributes > towards a pleasing aesthetic. We agree, so we changed only a few things from the CE design to Anarchs (and beyond Anarchs) design. The changes preserved the CE design as much as possible while still correcting the issues we received the most feedback on with the CE design. Will people tell the difference between CE and Anarch card designs, yes, but it won't be a horribly intrusive aesthetic difference (in my opinion). Only the master cards saw a significant change which I'm sure we'll show an example of once we preview the set on the website. Steve Wieck White Wolf

"The Horror" <tdem...@anhb.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message news:<b4p5jk$u3v$1...@enyo.uwa.edu.au>... > I have printed out a 41 page document of 8 point font writing detailing the > clarifications and errata and rulings on individual cards in the game. So > players already need a tome on the side to interpret each card. A large % of the errata have been reprinted on new card stock in recent expansions. Rulings and Clarifications are a necessary evil, 'tis true. Ever seen the rulings document for Magic? Let me know if you decide to print that one out. I want to buy stock in Hewlitt-Packard first. > Now we keep adding in more symbols and more rules. Where exactly does that > lead?It leads to more and more expansions. The way MtG went several years ago. Wrong. WotC wanted a tournament structure that did not favor the people who had been playing longer (in terms of card collection, at least), as they have shown they have no desire to fix the old (and flat out broken) existing cards. They also wanted a way to get people to buy more and more expansions (these two reasons have a sort of chicken-and-egg thing going). Thus Type 2 and the "block expansions" were introduced. The rules and symbols are a result of WotC attempting to make their now overabundant expansions more interesting. > What do players want? Overpowered cards. We now have a Lucita with a built > in ability that is better than a Perfect Clarity. And to top it off it has > new rules associated with it. You're kidding me, right? Perfect Clarity can: 1. affect vampires of greater than 6 capacity 2. affect ALL reaction cards (and potentially combat cards) of 2 disciplines played for the duration of the action 3. be played by any vampire with thaumaturgy Lucita's ability can stop one reaction of one vampire if they're 6 cap or lower. Granted, this is pretty friggin useful. Better than Perfect Clarity? No. Even considering that the cards are only somewhat comparable, I still think PC gets the nod in power. > Now somebody please explain to me why Absorb the Mind was made the way it is > at inferior dominate? There is absolutely no reason to play a normal old > fashioned strike dodge if all the vampires in your crypt have dominate and > you don't play any allies that you may want to be dodging with. So? Can someone come up with ANY example where Absorb the Mind has been abused? If it did something else besides dodge, I'd be upset. But really, you're playing Dominate. I'd be willing to put money down that most decks dont even use the card they draw in that combat with AtM. > So dominate now has a combat card that is usable on its own, with the very > useful ability of stopping your vampires getting hit, and that is better than > the card available for generic use by all minions. Absorb the Mind is only better than Dodge if you actually use that card you draw with it. If your strategy for combat defense is "dodge once per round", you're likely going to be pummelled at some point no matter which card you're using. And, as brought up by other people, you have to be playing an all dominate crypt. > Wasn't the point of the inferior version of the alternate discipline just to > allow cycling of the card in decks using the funky bloodlines discipline? > What happened in this case? My guess is the designers thought otherwise. > Am I exagerating? The focus of disciplines is dramatically changing over > the expansions. Animalism has turned into a significant combat discipline > instead of being more about retainers. And now it gives more intercept as > well. A single card can alter the power of the entire discipline, as was > evident with Scorpion Sting. So since Animalism wasn't a combat powerhouse in Jyhad/VtES and Dark Sovereigns it shouldn't be a combat powerhouse now? > Maybe we need master out of turns that can be played on your own > turn. You mean like Gangrel Conspiracy, Absolution of the Diabolist and Contingency Planning? > Maybe we need advanced Vampires, and triple discipline cards, and > goblins on pogo sticks. Maybe we need every discipline to do the same > thing, with potence giving intercept and presence giving deflections. Maybe you're overreacting to a game mechanic that we don't know ANY details on yet. -Snapcase

"Steve Wieck" <steve...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<hgqca.6784$955....@fe06.atl2.webusenet.com>... <snip reasonable-sounding stuff> >Only the master cards saw a significant change which I'm > sure we'll show an example of once we preview the set on the website. I guess that'll be something to make them more distinct again, which should please a whole lotta people. If so - good call and thanks! Tobias Deventer

"Johannes Walch" <johanne...@vekn.de> wrote in message news:<b4l2pr$at9$1...@stu1id2.ip.tesion.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] hmmm any chance of putting in some sort of rarity indicator? (this really helps new players and collectors) Maybe some sort of color scheme in the expansion symbol (like magic) instead of more symbols (like pokemon)

"Johann" <mads...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > hmmm any chance of putting in some sort of rarity indicator? (this > really helps new players and collectors) Maybe some sort of color > scheme in the expansion symbol (like magic) instead of more symbols > (like pokemon) Although I can see why you might want such a thing, I think it would be on the bottom of the list of things to improve/change. Rarity in V:TES is no where near as important as the other games you mentioned. And so you don't really need to immediately be able to tell which are the rare cards (ie good cards in Magic) and which are not rare. Heck I loved the color coding scheme for Magic because it made it so much easier to find and throw away the commons....

[ quoted text not captured ] This is one of those re-occurring threads you might want to do a google search for. I have a detailed letter as to why there should be a rarity indicator on cards, and can re-post it if you want. BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

> > "The Bard of Crete" > >Although I can see why you might want such a thing, I think it would be on > >the bottom of the list of things to improve/change. <berni...@attbi.comHOLDLeSPAM> wrote in message > This is one of those re-occurring threads you might want to do a google > search for. I have a detailed letter as to why there should be a rarity > indicator on cards, and can re-post it if you want. > No need really. Like I said, I can see why such a thing would be wanted...