Other cards to ditch !!

okay, with all those (non official yet) errata, there's a lot of cards we can throw in a bonfire : 5thrad, embrace and weather control, which were all difficult to obtain in the first place. (due to rarity and power, a lot of us had to give many cards away to gather some) I'm not against the spread of good cards, but i somewhat feel frustrated ! but it ain't finished yet ! some other Rare or Uncommon cards get screwed up by the new set !! The new concelaed weapon devaluates disguised weapon and makes an "obfuscate exclusive" function available to eveyron including allies. Thus reducing obfuscate to a plain boring, stealth generator discipline. I think it's bad. In my mind It's like being able to play additional strikes with a disciplineless card ! So, back to the topic: with the new concealed weapon,you can ditch the uncommon card Horrid Reality, the Rare card Gift of Bellona. (and please don't point that those cards have different functionality. Providing that 90% of the time the thing you want to have in combat is a .44 magnum, disguised weapon is sufficient enough) To a lesser extent, it's no stretch of mind to say that the return of freak drive as an uncommon (which is not a bad news) will make me ditch all those rare Hag's Wrinkles i managed to gather by trading away precious cards. so i'm asking WW : why did you create those cards in the first place ? why print rare like gift of bellona if you know that in the next set it will be nearly useless ? i don't mind too much if some cards from a 7 years old set are changed, but from one expansion to the other, where there is less than one year interval, i can't believe it could be f***ed up like this ! why the design team didn't think of camarilla expansion when the designed Bloodlines ??

> The new concelaed weapon devaluates disguised weapon and makes an "obfuscate > exclusive" function available to eveyron including allies. Thus reducing > obfuscate to a plain boring, stealth generator discipline. Exqueeze me? Have you actually *read* the new Concealed Weapon? It does absolutely nothing to lessen the value of DW. With DW you can whip out a Sengir Daggar, Flamethrower, Ivory Bow, Talbot's Chainsaw, Crimson Sentinal. You can't with CW. CW just makes it so that you don't need DW for your every day run of the mill weapons. Sorrow --- "I am Jack's wasted life." - Narrator

"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:ui9jpd...@corp.supernews.com... [ quoted text not captured ] (and please don't point that those cards have different functionality. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3d24d597$0$9439$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>, "reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> mumbled something about: [ quoted text not captured ] But it's not. Not even 50% of the time. Disguised Weapon lets you pull ANY weapon, and you can wait until strikes to do it with superior OBF... Specifically, an Ivory Bow or Improvised Flamethrower. If you're blocking (and OBF/AUS is such a rare discipline combo), then you can wait until you're choosing your OWN strike, and they've already selected "hands for 1". You can look very innocuous with a Spirit's Touch maneuver... We won't even go into the obvious comparisons with White Phosphorous Grenade, Kali's Fang, or Anton pulling out the Femur of Toomler. The agg damage weapons are easily the vast majority of things people pull out of their watch, and CW can't even come close. Oh, wait, and the OBF Toreador pulling out Assault Rifles and using Minion Tap/Voter Cap to pay for them isn't a good plan? If I'm packing Obfuscate, I'll still gladly use DW over CW -- the cards aren't even remotely equivalent. -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

Derek Ray wrote: > In message <3d24d597$0$9439$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>, > "reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> mumbled something about: >>"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>news:ui9jpd...@corp.supernews.com... >>>>The new concelaed weapon devaluates disguised weapon and makes an >>>>"obfuscate >>>>exclusive" function available to eveyron including allies. Thus reducing >>>>obfuscate to a plain boring, stealth generator discipline. >>>Exqueeze me? Have you actually *read* the new Concealed Weapon? It does >>>absolutely nothing to lessen the value of DW. With DW you can whip out a >>>Sengir Daggar, Flamethrower, Ivory Bow, Talbot's Chainsaw, Crimson >>Sentinal. >>>You can't with CW. CW just makes it so that you don't need DW for your >>>every day run of the mill weapons. >>(and please don't point that those cards have different functionality. >>Providing that 90% of the time the thing you want to have in combat is a .44 >>magnum, disguised weapon is sufficient enough) > But it's not. Not even 50% of the time. Laf... I have the distinct feeling that neither of you has actually tried to look up numbers for decklists, so those %s are total "out of your ass" numbers at this point. That being said, yes, the agg weapons are important, but the ability to pull out guns, pokers, and hooks does take something away from obf. Apparition + meat hook becomes a bit nastier, to say nothing of toreador and brujah having an better time of things getting .44s whenever. > Disguised Weapon lets you pull ANY weapon, and you can wait until > strikes to do it with superior OBF... Specifically, an Ivory Bow or > Improvised Flamethrower. If you're blocking (and OBF/AUS is such a rare > discipline combo), then you can wait until you're choosing your OWN > strike, and they've already selected "hands for 1". You can look very > innocuous with a Spirit's Touch maneuver... Right. It definitely has an advantage. DW doesn't become wallpaper by any means. However, it does make obf less exclusive in the sense that there is now another way to get many, though not all, weapons. It's like absorb the mind et al. and "Dodge!", if disciplineless dodge didn't already exist and was just being printed. Something that previous required vampires with a particular discipline can now be done by whoever. Personally, I'll always think of OBF as stealth with a splash of manuevers, so it's not a big loss. Sentimentalist may have different reactions as noted above. I see this helping out !Salubri weapon combat decks *a lot,* since Gift of Bellona should be marked return to sender. Getting weapons via a card no longer requires VAL (which only a few had) and you can use it first round. > Oh, wait, and the OBF > Toreador pulling out Assault Rifles and using Minion Tap/Voter Cap to > pay for them isn't a good plan? Remains to be seen, with the potential errata. 9 and 10 cap princes are a bit harder to justify w/o access to the original strength 2nd trad. (Blurring ARs can always taste to get blood back in place of 5ths they might have had.)

In message <3D245897...@attbi.com>, Shaun McIsaac <mpm...@attbi.com> mumbled something about: >Derek Ray wrote: >> In message <3d24d597$0$9439$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>, >> "reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> mumbled something about: >>>>You can't with CW. CW just makes it so that you don't need DW for your >>>>every day run of the mill weapons. >>>(and please don't point that those cards have different functionality. >>>Providing that 90% of the time the thing you want to have in combat is a .44 >>>magnum, disguised weapon is sufficient enough) >> But it's not. Not even 50% of the time. > >Laf... I have the distinct feeling that neither of you has actually >tried to look up numbers for decklists, so those %s are total "out of >your ass" numbers at this point. Actually, those are "years of experience" numbers -- something your comments regarding the recent rumors demonstrate that you lack. But really, all you have to do is think for a minute to figure it out. Quick, what's the weapon you MOST want to have in a combat? Right -- it depends on the combat. Against weenie POT, a Deer Rifle ranks pretty high, but it looks like shit when the Assamites come around. That means that a .44 won't even come up to 50%. Nothing will come up to 50%; it'll totally depend on who's involved in the combat. What does a .44 provide? One maneuver and two points of damage. What is its primary distinguishing characteristic? The maneuver. If you're fighting against ranged damage (of which the list is nearly endless), what does this mean? The distinguishing characteristic (the reason you selected that weapon in the first place) is useless. So it's obvious that you WON'T want a .44 anywhere near 50% of the time... in fact, what you will want is entirely going to depend on your own deck's construction and what you're facing. Simple, really. I don't have to look up numbers or decklists. >That being said, yes, the agg weapons are important, but the ability to >pull out guns, pokers, and hooks does take something away from obf. OBF is a stealth discipline, though, not a combat discipline. >Apparition + meat hook becomes a bit nastier, to say nothing of toreador >and brujah having an better time of things getting .44s whenever. Yes. I think this brings a certain amount of balance to the game, as well as depowering S:CE significantly. Actually, the Ravnos are noticeably more scary now; Concealed Weapon, (insert toy of choice here), and Mass Reality? Ugly. Before you had to use Zip Guns, meaning you ALWAYS came out of a combat down one blood (Zip Gun's damage or Apparition) and therefore had to carry a good chunk of Tastes. Swapping that out for a Saturday Night Special increases your minions' durability significantly. And, of course, Amria/Starshell Grenade Launcher is always funny after two superior Mass Realities are on the table. >> Disguised Weapon lets you pull ANY weapon, and you can wait until >> strikes to do it with superior OBF... Specifically, an Ivory Bow or >> Improvised Flamethrower. If you're blocking (and OBF/AUS is such a rare >> discipline combo), then you can wait until you're choosing your OWN >> strike, and they've already selected "hands for 1". You can look very >> innocuous with a Spirit's Touch maneuver... > >Right. It definitely has an advantage. DW doesn't become wallpaper by >any means. However, it does make obf less exclusive in the sense that >there is now another way to get many, though not all, weapons. It's And of course, this isn't really an issue at all. Yes, it does mean that now you have to worry about EVERY vampire hitting back, as even Isabel de Leon can pull a .44 out of her pants now. But that will be nothing big; even without disciplineless CW, if you didn't prepare for a vampire hitting back, you were likely to lose anyway. > > Oh, wait, and the OBF >> Toreador pulling out Assault Rifles and using Minion Tap/Voter Cap to >> pay for them isn't a good plan? > >Remains to be seen, with the potential errata. 9 and 10 cap princes are >a bit harder to justify w/o access to the original strength 2nd trad. Should the rumors be true and 2nd Tradition -does- cost a blood, its effect will be miniscule. 2nd Tradition was an incredibly powerful card for any Princely combat deck; the untap and +2 intercept in one place meant that it caught far more actions than it failed to, and it meant those Princes were able to spend actions ousting their prey instead of playing Bum's Rush. It was equally powerful for non-combat decks; the actual untap of the card meant that stealth/bleed still meant "bounce to prey", it just meant "bounce at +3 stealth"; and the casual "I ruin your vampire" actions like Mind Numb/Sense Dep became much harder to get off. There was a period once when 2nd Tradition decks were very popular. During that time, actions that couldn't generate +3 stealth simply never happened and weren't worth basing a deck around. The environment has shifted as more people are playing with the new toys, but I fully expect GenCon to see more than its share of 2nd Tradition. I also quite imagine that there will be more than a few surprised players at GenCon as their +1/+2 stealth decks get crunched. >(Blurring ARs can always taste to get blood back in place of 5ths they >might have had.) I find that Pursuit works better; provides emergency maneuvers, and anything that needs to be shot for more than 8 is a candidate for a Flash maneuver on the first round, instead of a gun maneuver. In general, though, I prefer Voter Cap in that deck instead of Taste, as later in the game vampires just won't have blood on them and you'll have to find some other way to reload yourself. 2nd Tradition costing a blood means that I'll have to Minion Tap my vampires down to only 3 or 4 instead of 1. Not a problem. I never used 5th Tradition; it was an interceptable action, and if I was going to take one of those, I much preferred calling KRCs to damage my prey WHILE regaining blood onto my minions. [ quoted text not captured ]

> okay, with all those (non official yet) errata, there's a lot of cards we > can throw in a bonfire : 5thrad, embrace and weather control, which were all > difficult to obtain in the first place. (due to rarity and power, a lot of > us had to give many cards away to gather some) I'm not against the spread of > good cards, but i somewhat feel frustrated ! Reyda ? You know I appreciate you, and respect your knowledge / experience of this game. But I think there is enough complaining already, and that is useless, especially since the cards are not out yet (and we cannot even be sure the erratas are true). Now, let's suppose they are : > but it ain't finished yet ! some other Rare or Uncommon cards get screwed up > by the new set !! Of course, as it did with every major change. Thoughts Betrayed used to be ultimate, remember ? Life is tough, but it goes on... And so does Unlife !! ;-) > The new concelaed weapon devaluates disguised weapon and makes an "obfuscate > exclusive" function available to eveyron including allies. Thus reducing > obfuscate to a plain boring, stealth generator discipline. I think it's bad. > In my mind It's like being able to play additional strikes with a > disciplineless card ! Yeah, I'd love that !! ;-) No, I wouldn't, but well : there are already disciplineless manoeuvers, +1 damage, presses, and we still use Potence or celerity, right ? Obf can do lots more than just stealth bleed, and still will. > So, back to the topic: with the new concealed weapon,you can ditch the > uncommon card Horrid Reality, the Rare card Gift of Bellona. > (and please don't point that those cards have different functionality. > Providing that 90% of the time the thing you want to have in combat is a .44 > magnum, disguised weapon is sufficient enough) Not for Assamites (Kali's Fang, Ivory Bow...) ; not for anyone wanting to make aggravated damage, or use any "real" weapon. It is a major change, but well, let's wait a little (like 6 months of play) B4 we begin judging if it was a mistake or not ! > To a lesser extent, it's no stretch of mind to say that the return of freak > drive as an uncommon (which is not a bad news) will make me ditch all those > rare Hag's Wrinkles i managed to gather by trading away precious cards. Come ooon !! They don't have the same effects at all and you know it. > so i'm asking WW : why did you create those cards in the first place ? > why print rare like gift of bellona if you know that in the next set it will > be nearly useless ? > i don't mind too much if some cards from a 7 years old set are changed, but > from one expansion to the other, where there is less than one year interval, > i can't believe it could be f***ed up like this ! > why the design team didn't think of camarilla expansion when the designed > Bloodlines ?? I find you a little over-pessimistic. Maybe they did make a design mistake, and you know creating a game ain't an easy task, and maybe they didn't and we overrate the impact such changes will have on the game. Let's wait and see and stop ranting ? Your friend, but a little calmed down, Orpheus

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<i57aiucv0h6794e50...@4ax.com>... > And of course, this isn't really an issue at all. Yes, it does mean > that now you have to worry about EVERY vampire hitting back, as even > Isabel de Leon can pull a .44 out of her pants now. Heh. This got me thinking... Now we have an explanation for the bulge in Badger's pants :-) DaveZ Atom Weaver

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:gko9iu0ftk6qfllhg...@4ax.com... > Disguised Weapon lets you pull ANY weapon, and you can wait until > strikes to do it with superior OBF... Specifically, an Ivory Bow or > Improvised Flamethrower. If you're blocking (and OBF/AUS is such a rare > discipline combo), then you can wait until you're choosing your OWN > strike, and they've already selected "hands for 1". You can look very > innocuous with a Spirit's Touch maneuver... You're right, and imight be overreacting on this one =) i can't help thinking that it draws something out of obfuscate, but yes, you are right, Disguised Weapon will remain powerful =) reyda

"reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3d24c5db$0$2248$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net... Okay i'm sorry, it's not very polite to reply to self , but anyway, here is an addition to my previous post. My goal is not to criticize WW all the way but i want them to be more careful with our game =) > To a lesser extent, it's no stretch of mind to say that the return of freak > drive as an uncommon (which is not a bad news) will make me ditch all those > rare Hag's Wrinkles i managed to gather by trading away precious cards. > > so i'm asking WW : why did you create those cards in the first place ? > why print rare like gift of bellona if you know that in the next set it will > be nearly useless ? > i don't mind too much if some cards from a 7 years old set are changed, but > from one expansion to the other, where there is less than one year interval, > i can't believe it could be f***ed up like this ! > why the design team didn't think of camarilla expansion when the designed > Bloodlines ?? The same way : Blood rage and blood fury are now hand strikes ! whereas Burning touch is a "1 damage" card. It clearly shows some lack of coordination and/or consistency here between succeding expansions. I feel a bit disappointed but, hey, that's life =) reyda (will still enjoy the game for a long time =p )

On Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:09:09 +0200, "reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Have you actually *read* the new Concealed Weapon? It does >> absolutely nothing to lessen the value of DW. With DW you can whip out a >> Sengir Daggar, Flamethrower, Ivory Bow, Talbot's Chainsaw, Crimson >Sentinal. >> You can't with CW. CW just makes it so that you don't need DW for your >> every day run of the mill weapons. > >(and please don't point that those cards have different functionality. >Providing that 90% of the time the thing you want to have in combat is a .44 >magnum, disguised weapon is sufficient enough) You really think everyone is like that?? :) I only use weapons tht might torporize opponents, so either stakes (CW would work) or aggro damage. Still nice to get that WP grenade out of your sleve.. nope, I really don't agree.. I think they have a very different function, and fit in different deck concepts. grtz, Pepijn

"Pepijn Kok" <ka...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message news:3d25daef....@newzilla.xs4all.nl... [ quoted text not captured ] Yeah, you're all very right =) I tend to do a mental fixation on the .44 magnums which, in my opinion are the best weaopn ever in terms of cost/efficiency. sorry for all the fuss =) reyda

On Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:40:44 -0500, "Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> wrote: >You can't with CW. CW just makes it so that you don't need DW for your >every day run of the mill weapons. Aside from 'non-unique', both old and new CW texts read "Equip this minion with a [...] weapon card from you hand at the beginning of a round." Does this mean I can play CW at various points during a combat, and equip the minion at the beginning of a future round (if combat gets to that point)? -----------== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Uncensored Usenet News ==---------- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----= Over 100,000 Newsgroups - Unlimited Fast Downloads - 19 Servers =-----

evilpootcat...@moc.oohay.yahoo.com wrote: > Aside from 'non-unique', both old and new CW texts read "Equip this > minion with a [...] weapon card from you hand at the beginning of a > round." Does this mean I can play CW at various points during a > combat, and equip the minion at the beginning of a future round (if > combat gets to that point)? Yes. Just like Mariel, Lady Thunder can end combat at the beginning of any round (not just the first). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> skrev i diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:3D2AD4E3...@white-wolf.com... > evilpootcat...@moc.oohay.yahoo.com wrote: > > Aside from 'non-unique', both old and new CW texts read "Equip this > > minion with a [...] weapon card from you hand at the beginning of a > > round." Does this mean I can play CW at various points during a > > combat, and equip the minion at the beginning of a future round (if > > combat gets to that point)? > > Yes. > > Just like Mariel, Lady Thunder can end combat at the beginning of > any round (not just the first). > I think you misunderstood the question... I believe evilpootcat asked if you, for instance could play CE in the press step, and then equip the weapon in the beginning of the next round, which I assume you cannot... /Henrik Isaksson

[ quoted text not captured ] Ah, if so, then no: you can only play it before range (on any given round). (clearly) Like Zip Gun (can't be played willy-nilly and then placed on the minion the next time "before range" rolls around). [ quoted text not captured ]