[lsj]masking, and other stuff

A bunch of conceptual question : -can you mask the bleeding action resulting from The portrait with another toreador ? -with a vampire from another clan ? -can you mask an action being modified by The Grandest Trick ? -can you play Malleable Visage when a vampire is blocked during a grandest trick action ? thank you (and, yeah, i'm trying to find a use for those oh-so-useful cards :) )

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:06:50 +0200, "Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote: >A bunch of conceptual question : >-can you mask the bleeding action resulting from The portrait with another >toreador ? No. None of the other vampires took the Portrait action. >-with a vampire from another clan ? No. >-can you mask an action being modified by The Grandest Trick ? Yes. Mask allows a vampire to take over an action begun by an ally. See also the RTR of 05-01-2002. http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CD0043D.410398C1%40white-wolf.com THE GRANDEST TRICK makes vampires unable to block the minion who played it, not the action in general (so if it is Masked, vampires can attempt to block the new acting vampire). >-can you play Malleable Visage when a vampire is blocked during a grandest >trick action ? Yes. The Grandest Trick makes the acting vampire an ally for all effects until the action ends. Malleable Visage is playable at inferior when an ally is blocked. >thank you >(and, yeah, i'm trying to find a use for those oh-so-useful cards :) ) Good luck. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:10:44 -0400, The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> scrawled: >On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:06:50 +0200, "Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> >wrote: [snip] >>-can you mask an action being modified by The Grandest Trick ? > >Yes. >Mask allows a vampire to take over an action begun by an ally. > >See also the RTR of 05-01-2002. > >http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CD0043D.410398C1%40white-wolf.com > >THE GRANDEST TRICK makes vampires unable to block the minion who >played it, not the action in general (so if it is Masked, vampires can >attempt to block the new acting vampire). But if you call for block attempts _before_ playing the mask, and they decline (because they have no allies or whatever), then you play mask and they can't block the new acting vampire, as mask does not retrigger a 'block attempts' phase. w00t! salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

The Lasombra wrote: > On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:06:50 +0200, "Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> > wrote: > > >>A bunch of conceptual question : >>-can you mask the bleeding action resulting from The portrait with another >>toreador ? > > No. > None of the other vampires took the Portrait action. >>-with a vampire from another clan ? > No. But the bleed is a separate action. You can mask it (with a Toreador or a non-Toreador), but only the Portrait-taker gets the bonus to stealth and bleed from the Portrait. [snip other answers] -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:12:59 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >The Lasombra wrote: >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:06:50 +0200, "Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> >>>A bunch of conceptual question : >>>-can you mask the bleeding action resulting from The portrait with another >>>toreador ? >> >> No. >> None of the other vampires took the Portrait action. > >>-with a vampire from another clan ? > > No. > >But the bleed is a separate action. >You can mask it (with a Toreador or a non-Toreador), but only the >Portrait-taker gets the bonus to stealth and bleed from the Portrait. This seems to directly contradict the latest rtr: "Mask of a Thousand Faces (REVERSAL): All effects that had been applied to the action or the acting minion carry over as if they had been applied with the Masker as the acting minion." Surely the +bleed and stealth apply to the Toreador, and thus _should_ carry over through a mask? Which then leads us to: "The standing rule that "Mask cannot be used to mask an action if the Masking vampire is not capable of taking that action, nor if any action modifiers have been played on this action that could not have been played if the Masking vampire were the acting minion. (Not counting blood that has already been spent.)" still applies, and it applies to other effects as well. So if Backways is tapped to give the acting Gangrel a stealth, then non-Gangrel cannot mask the action. If Redirection is used at inferior by a 7 capacity vampire, then vampires with capacity of 7 or more cannot mask the action (since they are not younger than the reacting vampire). And so on." As any potential maskers were not eligable for the +bleed/stealth, due to none of them having just played The Portrait, surely they cannot mask? Just like tapping a backways in an action means it can't be maked to non-gangrel, the Portrait, being the previous action, will only give it's +'s to the person who played it. It couldn't have been applied to the person currently trying to mask. [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: > On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:12:59 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> > scrawled: >>The Lasombra wrote: >>>On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:06:50 +0200, "Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> >>>wrote: >>>>-can you mask the bleeding action resulting from The portrait with another >>>>toreador ? >>> >>>No. >>>None of the other vampires took the Portrait action. >>> >>>>-with a vampire from another clan ? >>> >>>No. >> >>But the bleed is a separate action. >>You can mask it (with a Toreador or a non-Toreador), but only the >>Portrait-taker gets the bonus to stealth and bleed from the Portrait. > > > This seems to directly contradict the latest rtr: > "Mask of a Thousand Faces (REVERSAL): All effects that had been > applied to the action or the acting minion carry over as if they had > been applied with the Masker as the acting minion." It is not. This is the same as Ozmo bleeding and then Normal masking. Ozmo's bleed bonus doesn't carry over. The bleed bonus from Portrait is not one that was applied just during the bleed action. It was given to that Portraiting minion prior to the bleed action (that is, during the Portrait action). > Surely the +bleed and stealth apply to the Toreador, and thus _should_ > carry over through a mask? They apply to the vampire, extant from prior to the action, like Ozmo's bonus, and thus don't carry. [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: > On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:10:44 -0400, The Lasombra > <TheLa...@hotmail.com> scrawled: >>On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:06:50 +0200, "Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> >>wrote: >>>-can you mask an action being modified by The Grandest Trick ? >> >>Yes. >>Mask allows a vampire to take over an action begun by an ally. >> >>See also the RTR of 05-01-2002. >> >>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3CD0043D.410398C1%40white-wolf.com >> >>THE GRANDEST TRICK makes vampires unable to block the minion who >>played it, not the action in general (so if it is Masked, vampires can >>attempt to block the new acting vampire). > > But if you call for block attempts _before_ playing the mask, and they > decline (because they have no allies or whatever), then you play mask > and they can't block the new acting vampire, as mask does not > retrigger a 'block attempts' phase. Correct. But note that the new acting vampire (who must be a Kiasyd) is still treated as an ally, per the effects of Grandest Trick. The Mask gets to slide in, but the acting vampire can play no further effects that require disciplines. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote > >>THE GRANDEST TRICK makes vampires unable to block the minion who > >>played it, not the action in general (so if it is Masked, vampires can > >>attempt to block the new acting vampire). > > > > But if you call for block attempts _before_ playing the mask, and they > > decline (because they have no allies or whatever), then you play mask > > and they can't block the new acting vampire, as mask does not > > retrigger a 'block attempts' phase. > > Correct. > But note that the new acting vampire (who must be a Kiasyd) is still > treated as an ally, per the effects of Grandest Trick. The Mask gets > to slide in, but the acting vampire can play no further effects that > require disciplines. ????? Don't design cards that cannot be played, then.

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote > > "Mask of a Thousand Faces (REVERSAL): All effects that had been > > applied to the action or the acting minion carry over as if they had > > been applied with the Masker as the acting minion." > > It is not. This is the same as Ozmo bleeding and then Normal masking. > > Ozmo's bleed bonus doesn't carry over. > > The bleed bonus from Portrait is not one that was applied just during > the bleed action. It was given to that Portraiting minion prior to > the bleed action (that is, during the Portrait action). > > > Surely the +bleed and stealth apply to the Toreador, and thus _should_ > > carry over through a mask? > > They apply to the vampire, extant from prior to the action, like Ozmo's > bonus, and thus don't carry. Is it possible to have an *accurate and complete* list of what carry, chat don't carry, what is maskable and what is not ? I'm just tired of all those mind games. Please post something definitive, so we can actually *create decks* that have a chance to work outside the usual boundaries of MT/Voter cap and Bums/disarm/taste. Thank you.

Reyda wrote: > Don't design cards that cannot be played, then. Non sequitur, but sound, albeit obvious, advice. [ quoted text not captured ]

Reyda wrote: > Is it possible to have an *accurate and complete* list of what carry, chat > don't carry, what is maskable and what is not ? I'm just tired of all those > mind games. > > Please post something definitive, so we can actually *create decks* that > have a chance to work outside the usual boundaries of MT/Voter cap and > Bums/disarm/taste. Sure. See the RTR cited previously, where it is laid out. [ quoted text not captured ]