[LSJ] Shock Troops + Banishment

Descent into Darkenss 1 Blood +1 stealth action. [obt] Turn the acting vampire and any cards on him or her face down, out of play (breaking any temporary control effects). Put this card on him or her (in play). During your influence phase, move 2 blood to this face-down vampire from the blood bank, and you can choose to burn this card to return the vampire to play, tapped. [OBT] As above, but the vampire is untapped when he or she returns to play. Shock Troops [SW:R] Cardtype: Master Cost: X pool <Master.> Requires a ready archbishop or cardinal. Put X Master: Discipline cards from your hand into play. These cards represent clanless Sabbat vampires of 1 capacity with those respective Disciplines and do not count as Master: Discipline cards while in play. These vampires are not unique, must hunt the turn they are created, have -1 stealth on all actions and cannot attempt bleeds or political actions. Does a shock troop returning to play after a descent into darkness "remember" the shock troop text, or does it act as a regular minion from that point on? I am guessing that it (they) remain "shocked", as it probably falls under the same ruling as banishment, "A Banished vampire will remember all effects that had been applied to him, just as contested vampires do. This includes gained or lost titles, etc. [RTR 20000501]" But I just want to be sure that I'm not missing something. Cheers, -Scrote

"scrote" <mud...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:b618d4f6.04051...@posting.google.com... > Descent into Darkenss > 1 Blood > +1 stealth action. [obt] Turn the acting vampire and any cards on him > or her face down, out of play (breaking any temporary control > effects). > Put this card on him or her (in play). During your influence phase, > move 2 blood to this face-down vampire from the blood bank, and you > can > choose to burn this card to return the vampire to play, tapped. [OBT] > As above, but the vampire is untapped when he or she returns to play. > > Shock Troops [SW:R] > Cardtype: Master > > Cost: X pool > > <Master.> Requires a ready archbishop or cardinal. > Put X Master: Discipline cards from your hand into play. These cards > represent clanless Sabbat vampires of 1 capacity with those respective > Disciplines and do not count as Master: Discipline cards while in > play. These vampires are not unique, must hunt the turn they are > created, have -1 stealth on all actions and cannot attempt bleeds or > political actions. > > Does a shock troop returning to play after a descent into darkness > "remember" > the shock troop text, or does it act as a regular minion from that > point on? Yes, they remember. Is there a reason why they wouldn't? The Shock Troop text doesn't make them [vampires] [with some unusual characteristics], it makes them [vampires with some unusual characteristics]. At least, that would be my interpretation. :-) > I am guessing that it (they) remain "shocked", as it probably falls > under the same ruling as banishment, > > "A Banished vampire will remember all effects that had been applied to > him, just as contested vampires do. This includes gained or lost > titles, etc. [RTR 20000501]" > > But I just want to be sure that I'm not missing something. I think it's actually not precisely under that ruling, because the playing of Shock Troops isn't applying effects to vampires that already exist. It's creating vampires out of nothing. Those vampires, as represented by the Master: Discipline cards that you put in play to represent them, "know" and "remember" all their attributes regardless of what happens to them. At least, I think that's how Shock Troops should work. It does seem possible that Shock Troops would, when leaving play because of Descent into Darkness, "forget" that they had ever been vampires (and go, I guess, to the ash heap). But Descent into Darkness implies, I think, that it can bring the Descended vampire back into play after it sends the vamp out of play, ie that vampires sent out of play by Descent shouldn't "forget" anything about themselves other than temporary control effects. For example, a tapped Corporal Reservoir on a Descended vampire should still be tapped when it comes back into play. LSJ? Josh not spending enough time in darkness lately

Joshua Duffin wrote: > "scrote" <mud...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>Does a shock troop returning to play after a descent into darkness >>"remember" >>the shock troop text, or does it act as a regular minion from that >>point on? > > Yes, they remember. Is there a reason why they wouldn't? The Shock > Troop text doesn't make them [vampires] [with some unusual > characteristics], it makes them [vampires with some unusual > characteristics]. > > At least, that would be my interpretation. :-) Correct. The alternative is not "regular minion", BTW, it's "unattached Discipline card", which is all but useless. :-) >>I am guessing that it (they) remain "shocked", as it probably falls >>under the same ruling as banishment, >> >>"A Banished vampire will remember all effects that had been applied to >>him, just as contested vampires do. This includes gained or lost >>titles, etc. [RTR 20000501]" >> >>But I just want to be sure that I'm not missing something. > > I think it's actually not precisely under that ruling, because the > playing of Shock Troops isn't applying effects to vampires that already > exist. It's creating vampires out of nothing. Those vampires, as > represented by the Master: Discipline cards that you put in play to > represent them, "know" and "remember" all their attributes regardless of > what happens to them. At least, I think that's how Shock Troops should > work. > > It does seem possible that Shock Troops would, when leaving play because > of Descent into Darkness, "forget" that they had ever been vampires (and > go, I guess, to the ash heap). But Descent into Darkness implies, I > think, that it can bring the Descended vampire back into play after it > sends the vamp out of play, ie that vampires sent out of play by Descent > shouldn't "forget" anything about themselves other than temporary > control effects. For example, a tapped Corporal Reservoir on a > Descended vampire should still be tapped when it comes back into play. > > LSJ? Yes, similar to Banishing an Embrace. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/