Hello.
I have a question about "shadow of the beast" (SOTB).
My vampire has inferior protean.
I play SOTB, so he gets an optional maneuvre each combat.
Next turn, I play a protean discipline card on my vampire.
Does he get the optional press ?
I'm sorry if this question has been asked before, but I couldn't find the
answer on the WW web-page.
Jan-Christophe Hoogendoorn.
you must get the superior when you become superior just like a raven spy
gains an extra life when animalism disipline card is played on its owner
[ quoted text not captured ]
That is actually incorrect.
From the section in the errata about minion cards...
"A discipline-based card that is put into play is put into play at either
basic or superior level. Once in play, you can't change which level it was
played at, even if you give the vampre that played it a better ability."
So, in answer to the original poster's question, no. If the card is played
at basic level, it stays at basic level.
"Michelle Strinja" <michelle...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3930C972...@sk.sympatico.ca...
[ quoted text not captured ]
"James Moe" <mit...@blarg.net> wrote:
> That is actually incorrect.
>
> From the section in the errata about minion cards...
>
> "A discipline-based card that is put into play is put into play at
> either basic or superior level. Once in play, you can't change
> which level it was played at, even if you give the vampre that
> played it a better ability."
>
> So, in answer to the original poster's question, no. If the card
> is played at basic level, it stays at basic level.
Correct. Likewise, a Raven Spy would not receive an extra life
when his employer gains superior animalism (nor would he lose a
life if his employer *lost* superior animalism).
> "Michelle Strinja" <michelle...@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:3930C972...@sk.sympatico.ca...
> > you must get the superior when you become superior just like a raven
spy
> > gains an extra life when animalism disipline card is played on its
owner
> >
> > Jan-Christophe Hoogendoorn wrote:
> >
> > > Hello.
> > >
> > > I have a question about "shadow of the beast" (SOTB).
> > >
> > > My vampire has inferior protean.
> > > I play SOTB, so he gets an optional maneuvre each combat.
> > > Next turn, I play a protean discipline card on my vampire.
> > > Does he get the optional press ?
> > >
> > > I'm sorry if this question has been asked before, but I couldn't
find
> the
> > > answer on the WW web-page.
> > >
> > > Jan-Christophe Hoogendoorn.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
> > "A discipline-based card that is put into play is put into play at
> > either basic or superior level. Once in play, you can't change
> > which level it was played at, even if you give the vampre that
> > played it a better ability."
> >
> > So, in answer to the original poster's question, no. If the card
> > is played at basic level, it stays at basic level.
>
> Correct. Likewise, a Raven Spy would not receive an extra life
> when his employer gains superior animalism (nor would he lose a
> life if his employer *lost* superior animalism).
Here is where I think that the errata goes contrary to the spirit of the
game. V.TES is a game that should be able to be played without taking
notes. I only say this because I know in some tournaments I have played
in it wasn't that the issue was brought up but rather that it wasn't
(which seems rather confusing so stick with me here).
A good example of this is at a four player table on round 1 a player
bring out a size 4 Nosferatu with basic animalism. On turn two he
retains a raven spy with one life. On turn 3 he plays a animalism skill
card his Nosferatu therefore making his discipline superior. The problem
doesn't arise here but rather 7 turns later when someone tries to shoot
the raven spy with a zip gun (or a saturday night special, or aid from
bats). Now everyone including the player who controls the nosferatu
tries to remember whether the raven spy was before the skill card or
after. Often most players will get the benifit of the doubt that the
nosferatu had superior animalism.
Now this is how I have seen it play in tournaments. I think the errata
was well intentioned, but misguided because it makes the game far more
tedious to remember which went where and when. I know this may seem
like a corner case but that is why the errata was writen, and that
permanent plus one intercept has serious effect on table balance.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown Jr.
X_Zealot
Archon of the Swamp
[ quoted text not captured ]
Why not use two different sized and coloured counters. I never had any
problems in what the number of life is, as retainers and allies (and any
mastercard counter) will have counters that are different then the
counters I use for blood and pool. In any tournament I would thus
suggest 2 different sets of counters/dice etc...
Tim Eijpe
[ quoted text not captured ]
--
PROPHECY OF GEHENNA:
On The First Day Of Gehenna
The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent
And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky
Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <393274A...@renault.com>,
[ quoted text not captured ]
In response to both you and tim, the reason most people are a little
wary of people putting counters on their retainers is that they tend to
float from the retainer to the vampire that retained it. Inadvertently
giving them extra blood which can make a difference between a torpored
vamp and a non-torpored vamp. Although two different colored counters
seem like a good idea, I have not seen it in effect in a game.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8gtvkj$g5v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
[ quoted text not captured ]
Well, I had that problem. Then I bought some more smaller counters. And
now I use white, bigger counters as pool and blood on the Vampires, and
smaller, blue counters for retainers, allies and mastercards. That way
now problems can occur, poolwise. I have also seen people use dice
instead of life counters on retainers. But honestly, I would contantly
be taking notes at any tournament concerning these type of things, as
long as the rules state I can.
Comments given,
Tim Eijpe,
--
PROPHECY OF GEHENNA:
On The First Day Of Gehenna
The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent
And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky
Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise
[ quoted text not captured ]
X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
>
> > > "A discipline-based card that is put into play is put into play at
> > > either basic or superior level. Once in play, you can't change
> > > which level it was played at, even if you give the vampre that
> > > played it a better ability."
> > >
> > > So, in answer to the original poster's question, no. If the card
> > > is played at basic level, it stays at basic level.
> >
> > Correct. Likewise, a Raven Spy would not receive an extra life
> > when his employer gains superior animalism (nor would he lose a
> > life if his employer *lost* superior animalism).
>
> Here is where I think that the errata goes contrary to the spirit of the
> game.
It is not errata. Errata would be required to have the card *change*
after being put into play when nothing on card text says to change it.
> V.TES is a game that should be able to be played without taking
> notes. I only say this because I know in some tournaments I have played
> in it wasn't that the issue was brought up but rather that it wasn't
> (which seems rather confusing so stick with me here).
No notes are required for the Raven case: just look at the retainer. If it
has two life on it, then it was put into play at superior. If it has
one, then it was probably put into play at inferior (although it could
have been superior and victimized by a Cryptic Mission - which has the
same result).
How do you remember the level at which Seeds of Corruption or Disarm was
played? A certain amount of history is implied in the texts of certain
cards. If that history poses a problem, then notes should be taken.
Errata'ing the ones that happen to stay on the vampire that played them
won't solve all of the "problems".
> A good example of this is at a four player table on round 1 a player
> bring out a size 4 Nosferatu with basic animalism. On turn two he
> retains a raven spy with one life. On turn 3 he plays a animalism skill
> card his Nosferatu therefore making his discipline superior. The problem
> doesn't arise here but rather 7 turns later when someone tries to shoot
> the raven spy with a zip gun (or a saturday night special, or aid from
> bats). Now everyone including the player who controls the nosferatu
> tries to remember whether the raven spy was before the skill card or
> after. Often most players will get the benifit of the doubt that the
> nosferatu had superior animalism.
Since the Raven has only one life on him at the time (which he loses
when he gets shot), it doesn't matter at what level he was played -
he's still out of life, and so he burns.
> Now this is how I have seen it play in tournaments. I think the errata
> was well intentioned, but misguided because it makes the game far more
> tedious to remember which went where and when. I know this may seem
> like a corner case but that is why the errata was writen, and that
> permanent plus one intercept has serious effect on table balance.
It isn't errata.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
[ quoted text not captured ]
> > V.TES is a game that should be able to be played without taking
> > notes. I only say this because I know in some tournaments I have played
> > in it wasn't that the issue was brought up but rather that it wasn't
> > (which seems rather confusing so stick with me here).
>
> No notes are required for the Raven case: just look at the retainer. If it
> has two life on it, then it was put into play at superior. If it has
> one, then it was probably put into play at inferior (although it could
> have been superior and victimized by a Cryptic Mission - which has the
> same result).
Alright, so you guys actually put little counters on the retainers to
mark their lives? Nice, and it would have won me a sealed-deck game two
saturdays ago [forgot my wolf companion had TWO lives, let him get shot
dead by a deer rifle]! Different colours to the blood/pool counters,
presumably.
>
> How do you remember the level at which Seeds of Corruption or Disarm was
> played? A certain amount of history is implied in the texts of certain
> cards. If that history poses a problem, then notes should be taken.
> Errata'ing the ones that happen to stay on the vampire that played them
> won't solve all of the "problems".
>
How about placing the card below the vampire if it was played at
inferior, above it if it was played at superior? No notes required then.
[ quoted text not captured ]
<snip>
>
> Alright, so you guys actually put little counters on the retainers to
> mark their lives? Nice, and it would have won me a sealed-deck game
two
> saturdays ago [forgot my wolf companion had TWO lives, let him get
shot
> dead by a deer rifle]! Different colours to the blood/pool counters,
> presumably.
> >
> > How do you remember the level at which Seeds of Corruption or Disarm
was
> > played? A certain amount of history is implied in the texts of
certain
> > cards. If that history poses a problem, then notes should be taken.
> > Errata'ing the ones that happen to stay on the vampire that played
them
> > won't solve all of the "problems".
> >
> How about placing the card below the vampire if it was played at
> inferior, above it if it was played at superior? No notes required
then.
>
I think that would possibly lead to 'easy' cheating, through tapping and
replacing the retainer. At our tourney I asked players to use my blue
counters for retainer life and place the retainer in front of the
vampire, not under. that way there was no room to cheat. You would need
enough space for that approach.
Tim
--
PROPHECY OF GEHENNA:
On The First Day Of Gehenna
The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent
And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky
Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise
[ quoted text not captured ]
legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > V.TES is a game that should be able to be played without taking
> > > notes. I only say this because I know in some tournaments I have
> > > played in it wasn't that the issue was brought up but rather that
> > > it wasn't (which seems rather confusing so stick with me here).
> >
> > No notes are required for the Raven case: just look at the retainer.
> > If it has two life on it, then it was put into play at superior. If
> > it has one, then it was probably put into play at inferior
> > (although it could have been superior and victimized by a Cryptic
> > Mission - which has the same result).
>> Alright, so you guys actually put little counters on the retainers to
> mark their lives?
?
Rulebook: "When a retainer is brought into play, it receives blood
counters from the blood bank to represent its life (listed on the
retainer's card). When a retainer loses its last life counter, it
is burned" [6.1.4]
> Nice, and it would have won me a sealed-deck game two
> saturdays ago [forgot my wolf companion had TWO lives, let him get
shot
> dead by a deer rifle]!
? A Wolf Companion has a minimum of two lives - superior is three.
> Different colours to the blood/pool counters, presumably.
Not typically - we just put the blood counters representing life on
the retainer card and the blood counters representing blood on the
vampire. (And we even use the same blood counters to represent a
players pool.)
> > How do you remember the level at which Seeds of Corruption or
> > Disarm was played? A certain amount of history is implied in
> > the texts of certain cards. If that history poses a problem,
> > then notes should be taken.
> > Errata'ing the ones that happen to stay on the vampire that played
> > them won't solve all of the "problems".
>
> How about placing the card below the vampire if it was played at
> inferior, above it if it was played at superior? No notes required
> then.
Sounds fine (and sounds tantamount to taking notes, but OK.)
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8h09lj$331$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > > V.TES is a game that should be able to be played without taking
> > > > notes. I only say this because I know in some tournaments I have
> > > > played in it wasn't that the issue was brought up but rather that
> > > > it wasn't (which seems rather confusing so stick with me here).
> > >
> > > No notes are required for the Raven case: just look at the retainer.
> > > If it has two life on it, then it was put into play at superior. If
> > > it has one, then it was probably put into play at inferior
> > > (although it could have been superior and victimized by a Cryptic
> > > Mission - which has the same result).
> >
> > Alright, so you guys actually put little counters on the retainers to
> > mark their lives?
>
> ?
>
> Rulebook: "When a retainer is brought into play, it receives blood
> counters from the blood bank to represent its life (listed on the
> retainer's card). When a retainer loses its last life counter, it
> is burned" [6.1.4]
Ah well, you know, we old vamps can't get involved in vulgar activities
like reading. So, i have a man who reads the rule-book for me. Sometimes
he misses stuff, and then i have to kill him.
>
> > Nice, and it would have won me a sealed-deck game two
> > saturdays ago [forgot my wolf companion had TWO lives, let him get
> shot
> > dead by a deer rifle]!
>
> ? A Wolf Companion has a minimum of two lives - superior is three.
>
i know that now! Stupid, aren't i?
[ quoted text not captured ]