LSJ, Protean Brujah Frenzy

I was just thinking about this. If I had Dre, Leader of the Cold Dawn (3,pot,cel) with two protean cards on him bleed another methuselah and he gets Brujah Frenzy played on him, so that he would now have to enter combat with another ready vampire, could I then play form of mist to continue the action, bleeding at +1 stealth. I figured that you could, but I was wondering if Brujah Frenzy being a OOT Master changed anything. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > I was just thinking about this. If I had Dre, Leader of the Cold Dawn > (3,pot,cel) with two protean cards on him bleed another methuselah and > he gets Brujah Frenzy played on him, so that he would now have to > enter combat with another ready vampire, could I then play form of > mist to continue the action, bleeding at +1 stealth. I figured that > you could, but I was wondering if Brujah Frenzy being a OOT Master > changed anything. No, because Dre doesn't need the stealth (since there is no blocking minion). If he had superior Obtenebration and frenzied whilst performing some action other than a bleed or a political action, he could use Shadow Body, however. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8n8vgh$uif$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] How is that again? The Brujah Frenzy was blocked, per card text. The acting Brujah minion now enters combat with a minion. How does the Form of Mist or Shadow Body differ in end result? The FoM allows the action to continue but at +1 stealth (because it was blocked) and SB allows the action to continue at 0 stealth (because it was blocked). Aside from the how the action was blocked (a minion didn't block, a Methuselah did), the action was blocked. Michael Eichler Prince of Ramstein -- Worry comes from the belief you are powerless. (So get in there and kick some butt!) [ quoted text not captured ]

Ramsteiner wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > > I was just thinking about this. If I had Dre, Leader of the Cold > Dawn > > > (3,pot,cel) with two protean cards on him bleed another methuselah > and > > > he gets Brujah Frenzy played on him, so that he would now have to > > > enter combat with another ready vampire, could I then play form of > > > mist to continue the action, bleeding at +1 stealth. I figured that > > > you could, but I was wondering if Brujah Frenzy being a OOT Master > > > changed anything. > > > > No, because Dre doesn't need the stealth (since there is no blocking > > minion). If he had superior Obtenebration and frenzied whilst > > performing some action other than a bleed or a political action, he > > could use Shadow Body, however. > > > How is that again? The Brujah Frenzy was blocked, per card text. The > acting Brujah minion now enters combat with a minion. How does the > Form of Mist or Shadow Body differ in end result? The FoM allows the > action to continue but at +1 stealth (because it was blocked) and SB > allows the action to continue at 0 stealth (because it was blocked). > Aside from the how the action was blocked (a minion didn't block, a > Methuselah did), the action was blocked. Needing stealth is not a function of whether the action was blocked, rather it is a function of whether there is a blocking minion with sufficient intercept. In the example given, no stealth is needed (since there is no blocking minion with sufficient intercept). According to the rules, stealth can only be added when needed. Superior Form of Mist adds stealth, so it cannot be played if stealth is not needed. Superior Shadow Body does not add stealth, so can be played even if stealth is not needed. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <39980C01...@white-wolf.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] So, what you are saying is if you enter combat with a minion (by any fuction that cancels the current action and is not through a block, such as Brujah Frenzy), then you may not play a superior form of mist or shadow to continue the action. Is this correct? Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8nkd02$vau$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com writes >So, what you are saying is if you enter combat with a minion (by any >fuction that cancels the current action and is not through a block, such >as Brujah Frenzy), Technically, Brujah Frenzy does block the action. > then you may not play a superior form of mist or >shadow to continue the action. Is this correct? Since there is no blocking minion with sufficient intercept, there is no need to play stealth. And you cannot play stealth when you don't need it. -- James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D | ja...@zephyr.org.uk (New e-mail) "Who'd have ever predicted the moment would come when I find myself grateful they've kept women dumb? She's an innocent maiden but then so am I, that's why it's possible I could get by."

In article <wHRvpBBp...@obeah.demon.co.uk>, James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In article <8nkd02$vau$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com writes > >So, what you are saying is if you enter combat with a minion (by any > >fuction that cancels the current action and is not through a block, such > >as Brujah Frenzy), > > Technically, Brujah Frenzy does block the action. Does that mean you can play Hidden Lurkers and Fast Reactions in response to a Brujah Frenzy? [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8nn0h8$nfl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com writes >> Technically, Brujah Frenzy does block the action. > >Does that mean you can play Hidden Lurkers and Fast Reactions in >response to a Brujah Frenzy? No, because *Brujah Frenzy* has blocked the action, not the minion, and you need a blocking minion to play Hidden Lurker. Similarly, Fast Reaction must be played by a blocking minion. In the case of Brujah Frenzy, it is that card itself which blocks the action. There is also a combat involved as a result of playing it, but it isn't a block-combat with a blocking minion. Similarly, Kiss of Ra blocks an action, but it is that card that actually does the blocking. Any effects playable by a blocking minion would not be playable. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <ICXxIMBwNxn5EwV$@obeah.demon.co.uk>, James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In article <8nn0h8$nfl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com writes > >> Technically, Brujah Frenzy does block the action. > > > >Does that mean you can play Hidden Lurkers and Fast Reactions in > >response to a Brujah Frenzy? > > No, because *Brujah Frenzy* has blocked the action, not the minion, and > you need a blocking minion to play Hidden Lurker. > > Similarly, Fast Reaction must be played by a blocking minion. > > In the case of Brujah Frenzy, it is that card itself which blocks the > action. There is also a combat involved as a result of playing it, but > it isn't a block-combat with a blocking minion. > > Similarly, Kiss of Ra blocks an action, but it is that card that > actually does the blocking. Any effects playable by a blocking minion > would not be playable. Interesting, Thanks for the clarification [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <ICXxIMBwNxn5EwV$@obeah.demon.co.uk>, James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > In article <8nn0h8$nfl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com > No, because *Brujah Frenzy* has blocked the action, not the minion, and > you need a blocking minion to play Hidden Lurker. > > Similarly, Fast Reaction must be played by a blocking minion. erm, played after combat has occurred with a blocking minion, by a minion other than the blocking minion.... > In the case of Brujah Frenzy, it is that card itself which blocks the > action. There is also a combat involved as a result of playing it, but > it isn't a block-combat with a blocking minion. > > Similarly, Kiss of Ra blocks an action, but it is that card that > actually does the blocking. Any effects playable by a blocking minion > would not be playable. this still messes me up though: is there a combat if kiss of ra is played at inferior (ie: the minion attempting to block did not go to torpor)? say i am playing a crazy obf for deck and i Night Moves my prey. he declares an attempt to block with Smudge, just for a laugh, even though he knows he's never going to be able to successfully block. i then play a basic Kiss of Ra. Smudge burns two blood, and the action is blocked (by Kiss of Ra). do we then have a combat? -- _*__salem _*__http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/5848/ ***__salem_...@my-dejanews.com _*__and the rains came hammering down [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8nr2m2$15k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, ....salem.... <salem_...@my-deja.com> wrote: > In article <ICXxIMBwNxn5EwV$@obeah.demon.co.uk>, > James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > > In article <8nn0h8$nfl$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com > > > No, because *Brujah Frenzy* has blocked the action, not the minion, > and > > you need a blocking minion to play Hidden Lurker. > > > > Similarly, Fast Reaction must be played by a blocking minion. > > erm, played after combat has occurred with a blocking minion, by a > minion other than the blocking minion.... > > > In the case of Brujah Frenzy, it is that card itself which blocks the > > action. There is also a combat involved as a result of playing it, > but > > it isn't a block-combat with a blocking minion. > > > > Similarly, Kiss of Ra blocks an action, but it is that card that > > actually does the blocking. Any effects playable by a blocking minion > > would not be playable. > > this still messes me up though: is there a combat if kiss of ra is > played at inferior (ie: the minion attempting to block did not go to > torpor)? > > say i am playing a crazy obf for deck and i Night Moves my prey. he > declares an attempt to block with Smudge, just for a laugh, even though > he knows he's never going to be able to successfully block. i then play > a basic Kiss of Ra. Smudge burns two blood, and the action is blocked > (by Kiss of Ra). do we then have a combat? > Excellent question! > -- > _*__salem > _*__http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/5848/ > ***__salem_...@my-dejanews.com > _*__and the rains came hammering down > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > Heck, just the fact that Brujah Frenzy blocks an action but isn't really a block sounds screwy all together. It just seems to cloud the water when you are showing new players how Turn Sequencing is conducted. You can block without actually blocking. Sounds great. In the past, I've always viewed the Brujah Frenzy as card that creates a situation where an Action is blocked and here is your "Action-Blocked- Combat" opponent. I suppose it is good that I don't play Brujah much anymore. Michael Eichler Prince of Ramstein -- Worry comes from the belief you are powerless. (So get in there and kick some butt!) [ quoted text not captured ]

"....salem...." wrote: > James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote: > > Similarly, Kiss of Ra blocks an action, but it is that card that > > actually does the blocking. Any effects playable by a blocking minion > > would not be playable. > > this still messes me up though: is there a combat if kiss of ra is > played at inferior (ie: the minion attempting to block did not go to > torpor)? > > say i am playing a crazy obf for deck and i Night Moves my prey. he > declares an attempt to block with Smudge, just for a laugh, even though > he knows he's never going to be able to successfully block. i then play > a basic Kiss of Ra. Smudge burns two blood, and the action is blocked > (by Kiss of Ra). do we then have a combat? No. Kiss of Ra is played when a block is attempted (even if it wouldn't be successful). Kiss of Ra then blocks the action. [ quoted text not captured ]

Ramsteiner wrote: > Heck, just the fact that Brujah Frenzy blocks an action but isn't > really a block sounds screwy all together. It just seems to cloud the > water when you are showing new players how Turn Sequencing is > conducted. You can block without actually blocking. Sounds great. It is really a block. The Brujah's own Frenzied nature cause the action to be blocked. Just because there's no blocking minion doesn't mean the block isn't really a block. > In the past, I've always viewed the Brujah Frenzy as card that creates > a situation where an Action is blocked and here is your "Action-Blocked- > Combat" opponent. I suppose it is good that I don't play Brujah much > anymore. The Brujah Frenzy cards causes the block and it causes the combat. The no-blocking-minion block doesn't cause a combat (see inferior Kiss of Ra). [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <39A13BF9...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Ramsteiner wrote: > > Heck, just the fact that Brujah Frenzy blocks an action but isn't > > really a block sounds screwy all together. It just seems to cloud the > > water when you are showing new players how Turn Sequencing is > > conducted. You can block without actually blocking. Sounds great. > > It is really a block. The Brujah's own Frenzied nature cause the action > to be blocked. So therefore, the acting methuselah can play Hidden Lurker and the blocking Methuselah, or is this the special event that I was confused by. > Just because there's no blocking minion doesn't mean the block isn't > really a block. > > > In the past, I've always viewed the Brujah Frenzy as card that creates > > a situation where an Action is blocked and here is your "Action-Blocked- > > Combat" opponent. I suppose it is good that I don't play Brujah much > > anymore. > The Brujah Frenzy cards causes the block and it causes the combat. > The no-blocking-minion block doesn't cause a combat (see inferior Kiss of Ra). > So therefor action-modifers and reaction cards relating to blocks apply (Change of Target, Hidden Lurker, Fast Reaction, etc..) or not? Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot A Very Confused Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8ns7h9$dvv$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, X_Ze...@email.msn.com writes >> It is really a block. The Brujah's own Frenzied nature cause the >action >> to be blocked. > >So therefore, the acting methuselah can play Hidden Lurker and the >blocking Methuselah, or is this the special event that I was confused >by. No, because Hidden Lurker requires combat to have been completed against a blocking minion (or is it vampire?) There is no such minion in a Brujah Frenzy. There is a block, from the Brujah Frenzy. There also happens to be a combat. There is no blocking minion. >> The Brujah Frenzy cards causes the block and it causes the combat. >> The no-blocking-minion block doesn't cause a combat (see inferior Kiss >of Ra). >> > >So therefor action-modifers and reaction cards relating to blocks apply >(Change of Target, Hidden Lurker, Fast Reaction, etc..) or not? If they require a blocking minion, no, since there isn't one. [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > Ramsteiner wrote: > > > Heck, just the fact that Brujah Frenzy blocks an action but isn't > > > really a block sounds screwy all together. [...] > > > You can block without actually blocking. Sounds great. > > > > It is really a block. The Brujah's own Frenzied nature cause the action > > to be blocked. > > So therefore, the acting methuselah can play Hidden Lurker and the > blocking Methuselah, or is this the special event that I was confused > by. Not sure what "and the blocking Methuselah" means, sorry. Hidden Lurker's effect is to send the modifying ("lurking") vampire into combat with the "blocking minion". Since there is no blocking minion, Hidden Lurker cannot be played, by the general rule against playing cards whose targets do not exist. > > Just because there's no blocking minion doesn't mean the block isn't > > really a block. > > > > > I've always viewed the Brujah Frenzy as card that creates > > > a situation where an Action is blocked and here is your > > > "Action-Blocked-Combat" opponent. > > > The Brujah Frenzy cards causes the block and it causes the combat. > > The no-blocking-minion block doesn't cause a combat (see [normal] > > Kiss of Ra). > > So therefor action-modifers and reaction cards relating to blocks apply > (Change of Target, Hidden Lurker, Fast Reaction, etc..) or not? Any cards apply that can be applied. If the cards requires (or targets, chooses, etc.) the "blocking minion" or "blocking vampire", then it cannot be played if there is no such minion. Change of Target cannot be used with no blocking minion [RTR 24-FEB-1994], although that case is not as clearly "targetting" the blocking minion. Fast Reaction explictly limits itself to use after a blocking minion has completed combat, so cannot be used. Hidden Lurker targets the blocking minion, so cannot be used. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > So therefore, the acting methuselah can play Hidden Lurker and the > > blocking Methuselah, or is this the special event that I was confused > > by. > > Not sure what "and the blocking Methuselah" means, sorry. That is the Methuselah who's minion is getting pounded by the Frenzied Brujah, a.k.a. the punching bag or the bitch. > Hidden Lurker's effect is to send the modifying ("lurking") vampire into > combat with the "blocking minion". Since there is no blocking minion, > Hidden Lurker cannot be played, by the general rule against playing cards > whose targets do not exist. > > So therefor action-modifers and reaction cards relating to blocks apply > > (Change of Target, Hidden Lurker, Fast Reaction, etc..) or not? > > Any cards apply that can be applied. > > If the cards requires (or targets, chooses, etc.) the "blocking minion" > or "blocking vampire", then it cannot be played if there is no such > minion. > > Change of Target cannot be used with no blocking minion [RTR 24-FEB-1994], > although that case is not as clearly "targetting" the blocking minion. > > Fast Reaction explictly limits itself to use after a blocking minion > has completed combat, so cannot be used. > > Hidden Lurker targets the blocking minion, so cannot be used. I believe this answers my initial question. Follow me here and see if this sounds right. A Brujah who has had Brujah Frenzy played on it may not play combat cards that S:CE and continue the action because there is no blocking minion but rather the card Brujah Frenzy blocks the action. Is that correct? Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. X_Zealot [ quoted text not captured ]

X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > > > > So therefore, the acting methuselah can play Hidden Lurker and the > > > blocking Methuselah, or is this the special event that I was > confused > > > by. > > > > Not sure what "and the blocking Methuselah" means, sorry. > > That is the Methuselah who's minion is getting pounded by the Frenzied > Brujah, [...] OK, but I still don't get it in context: "the acting minion can play Hidden Lurker and the blocking Methuselah". > > [...] > I believe this answers my initial question. > Follow me here and see if this sounds right. > A Brujah who has had Brujah Frenzy played on it may not play combat > cards that S:CE and continue the action because there is no blocking > minion but rather the card Brujah Frenzy blocks the action. > Is that correct? This was covered in my initial response in this thread: http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=658130085 He cannot play Form of Mist to end combat, since: o. that would add stealth, and o. stealth cannot be added unless it is needed, and o. there is no blocking minion, so he doesn't need stealth He could, however, play Shadow Body, since Shadow Body doesn't require that there be a blocking minion (neither explicitly nor implicitly via added stealth). [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Hidden Lurker targets the blocking minion, so cannot be used. > I believe this answers my initial question. > Follow me here and see if this sounds right. > A Brujah who has had Brujah Frenzy played on it may not play combat > cards that S:CE and continue the action because there is no blocking > minion but rather the card Brujah Frenzy blocks the action. > Is that correct? Not if the card provides stealth (a la Form of Mist) as stealth is not needed. However, you can play cards that do not provide stealth (but continue the action; a la Shadow Body). Sorrow -be prepared to get stuck in the grinder, boy. saturday night you're going to go crying home to mommy. :p --- "Are they dead?" - Pugsly "Does it matter?" - Wednesday

> Sorrow > -be prepared to get stuck in the grinder, boy. saturday night you're > going to go crying home to mommy. :p What cologne is that you are wearing? Insecurity? I am coming for you. There is nothing you can do. Prepare to meet your maker.;P X_Zealot [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8nr2m2$15k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, . . . . salem. . . . <salem_...@my-deja.com> writes >> No, because *Brujah Frenzy* has blocked the action, not the minion, >and >> you need a blocking minion to play Hidden Lurker. >> >> Similarly, Fast Reaction must be played by a blocking minion. > >erm, played after combat has occurred with a blocking minion, by a >minion other than the blocking minion.... My apologies. What I was trying to point out, and then slipped in my wording, was that it "requires" a blocking minion to be there - and with Brujah Frenzy, there is no blocking minion - just a block, and a combat that went on. [ quoted text not captured ]