[LSJ] Mata Hari and Assimite Contracts

LSJ, How does Mata Hari's Special and Assimite Contracts work? She can play Clandestine Contract but does it still treat her as being named for the contract? What about Provision of Silsilia? What about Khabar: Glory? How does Mata Hari's Special work with D'habi Revenant? How does it work with Priestess of Sekhmet? How does it work with Walk through Arcadia? How does it work with Derange? How does it work for Sacrifice? How does it work for Infernal Pact? How does it work for Ventrue Investment? -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

XZealot wrote: > LSJ, > How does Mata Hari's Special and Assimite Contracts work? She can play > Clandestine Contract but does it still treat her as being named for the > contract? What about Provision of Silsilia? What about Khabar: Glory? > > How does Mata Hari's Special work with D'habi Revenant? > > How does it work with Priestess of Sekhmet? > > How does it work with Walk through Arcadia? > > How does it work with Derange? > > How does it work for Sacrifice? > > How does it work for Infernal Pact? > > How does it work for Ventrue Investment? For all: she plays the card as an <X>. Once in play, the card no longer treats her as an X. Once in play, she is no longer chosen for the Clandestine Contract. Provision of the Silsila is largely useless to her, since she won't be chosen for a contract. Glory won't give her +bleed, but will net pool on oust. D'Habi specifies "this Baali", which she is not. Walk Through Arcadia has no "in play" effect (indeed, it is not put in play), so it is fine. The rest similarly.

On 2 May 2005 08:30:30 -0700, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> How does it work for Ventrue Investment? > > For all: she plays the card as an <X>. Once in play, the card no longer > treats her as an X. > Once in play, she is no longer chosen for the Clandestine Contract. > Provision of the Silsila is largely useless to her, since she won't be > chosen for a contract. Glory won't give her +bleed, but will net pool > on oust. > > D'Habi specifies "this Baali", which she is not. > > Walk Through Arcadia has no "in play" effect (indeed, it is not put in > play), so it is fine. > > The rest similarly. Just to clarify: I have Mata Hari and Samson in play. I play Ventrue Investment. I may choose to play it in the normal fashion (as I have Samson in play), in which case it gets one counter for Samson. I may also choose to play it using Mata Hari's special, in which case the Ventrue Investment also counts her to be a Ventrue Antitribu, and it gets two counters. Right? -- Bye, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > Just to clarify: I have Mata Hari and Samson in play. I play Ventrue > Investment. I may choose to play it in the normal fashion (as I have > Samson in play), in which case it gets one counter for Samson. I may > also choose to play it using Mata Hari's special, in which case the > Ventrue Investment also counts her to be a Ventrue Antitribu, and it > gets two counters. Right? Supposing Samson graverobbed Mata Hari (he's group 2 and she's group 4), yes. John > -- > Bye, > > Daneel

[ quoted text not captured ] Okay, so if I played Hostile Takeover instead of Graverobbing, it doesn't work? Only with Graverobbing? And what if Samson has DOM (through a skill card, the Seal or some Elder Vitae, for example), does it matter whether he plays Graverobbing at dom or DOM? Please, was the graverobbing remark of any relevance to the hypothetical example? Sheesh. I feel like needing to take a vacation every month. -- Bye, Daneel

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> schreef in bericht news:opsp5tv2...@news.chello.hu... > On 2 May 2005 10:27:26 -0700, <jnew...@difsol.com> wrote: > >> >> Daneel wrote: >>> Just to clarify: I have Mata Hari and Samson in play. I play Ventrue >>> Investment. I may choose to play it in the normal fashion (as I >> have >>> Samson in play), in which case it gets one counter for Samson. I >> may >>> also choose to play it using Mata Hari's special, in which case the >>> Ventrue Investment also counts her to be a Ventrue Antitribu, and >> it >>> gets two counters. Right? >> >> Supposing Samson graverobbed Mata Hari (he's group 2 and she's group >> 4), yes. > > Please, was the graverobbing remark of any relevance to the hypothetical > example? Sheesh. I feel like needing to take a vacation every month. > I think it was a joke. Would you rather have that he posted something along the lines of: "You stupid fucker, you can't mix those two in the same crypt, go read the rulebook, dumbass" I, for one, prefer the humorous version.

[ quoted text not captured ] Sorry, I probably have no sense of humor then. I would have preferred a reply like: 1. Yes. (...or No...) to any other reply. Maybe "Correct." The maximum being a link to a previous ruling. I mean, from the POV of the example, the nitpick fails to be relevant. As long as it's not something like "Gillian Krader calls KRC" or something, hypothetical examples are assumed to allow a certain freedom from the petty details. -- Bye, Daneel

In message <lcude.79488$rT5.5...@phobos.telenet-ops.be>, Jeroen Rombauts <jeroen....@NOSPAMtelenet.be> writes: >I think it was a joke. Would you rather have that he posted something along >the lines of: >"You stupid fucker, you can't mix those two in the same crypt, go read the >rulebook, dumbass" Ooh. I vote this becomes the official way of responding to any comment which involves violating the grouping rules. -- James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?" 13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/

Daneel wrote: > On 2 May 2005 10:27:26 -0700, <jnew...@difsol.com> wrote: > > > > > Daneel wrote: > >> Just to clarify: I have Mata Hari and Samson in play. I play Ventrue > >> Investment. I may choose to play it in the normal fashion (as I > > have > >> Samson in play), in which case it gets one counter for Samson. I > > may > >> also choose to play it using Mata Hari's special, in which case the > >> Ventrue Investment also counts her to be a Ventrue Antitribu, and > > it > >> gets two counters. Right? > > > > Supposing Samson graverobbed Mata Hari (he's group 2 and she's group > > 4), yes. > > Okay, so if I played Hostile Takeover instead of Graverobbing, it > doesn't work? Well, I was assuming you'd start with a !Ventrue deck to use the VI, so I didn't think of Mata playing the HT to grab Samson. Maybe Alan Sovereign's around for a third investment counter. > Only with Graverobbing? And what if Samson has DOM > (through a skill card, the Seal or some Elder Vitae, for example), > does it matter whether he plays Graverobbing at dom or DOM? Only if he later goes to torpor. As long as Samson stays ready, you can play the VI (control a ready ventrue, per the rulebook) and use Mata Hari's text (play a card requiring a clan as if she were a member of that clan) even if she's still in torpor. > > Please, was the graverobbing remark of any relevance to the hypothetical > example? Sheesh. I feel like needing to take a vacation every month. No, it was (tangentially) relevant to the weeks-old discussion about whether or not Frederick the Weak is too strong. Personally, I think Samson would kick Frederick's ass if only Dylan would give him his hair back. John > -- > Bye, > > Daneel

On 2 May 2005 13:31:33 -0700, <jnew...@difsol.com> wrote: > Daneel wrote: >> On 2 May 2005 10:27:26 -0700, <jnew...@difsol.com> wrote: >> >> > >> > Daneel wrote: >> >> Just to clarify: I have Mata Hari and Samson in play. I play > Ventrue >> >> Investment. I may choose to play it in the normal fashion (as I >> > have >> >> Samson in play), in which case it gets one counter for Samson. I >> > may >> >> also choose to play it using Mata Hari's special, in which case > the >> >> Ventrue Investment also counts her to be a Ventrue Antitribu, > and >> > it >> >> gets two counters. Right? >> > >> > Supposing Samson graverobbed Mata Hari (he's group 2 and she's > group >> > 4), yes. >> >> Okay, so if I played Hostile Takeover instead of Graverobbing, it >> doesn't work? > > Well, I was assuming you'd start with a !Ventrue deck to use the VI, so > I didn't think of Mata playing the HT to grab Samson. Maybe Alan > Sovereign's around for a third investment counter. I assume you intentionally left yourself open this time. Okay, I'll bite: VI isn't an Investment in that sense (it lacks the special descriptor). So Alan's special wouldn't matter. Unfortunately, if you ask me... But it's still so. >> Only with Graverobbing? And what if Samson has DOM >> (through a skill card, the Seal or some Elder Vitae, for example), >> does it matter whether he plays Graverobbing at dom or DOM? > > Only if he later goes to torpor. As long as Samson stays ready, you can > play the VI (control a ready ventrue, per the rulebook) and use Mata > Hari's text (play a card requiring a clan as if she were a member of > that clan) even if she's still in torpor. Are you pulling my leg? Can you really do that? This is new. So you can play the card because Samson is ready, and you use Mata Hari's special ability to make the card consider her a Ventrue Antitribu? LSJ, can we get a confirmation here, please? >> Please, was the graverobbing remark of any relevance to the > hypothetical >> example? Sheesh. I feel like needing to take a vacation every > month. > > No, it was (tangentially) relevant to the weeks-old discussion about > whether or not Frederick the Weak is too strong. Personally, I think > Samson would kick Frederick's ass if only Dylan would give him his hair > back. ;) (Now that I know to detect a joke, I can actually spot it and enjoy.) -- Bye, Daneel

Daneel wrote: > On 2 May 2005 13:31:33 -0700, <jnew...@difsol.com> wrote: >> Only if he later goes to torpor. As long as Samson stays ready, you can >> play the VI (control a ready ventrue, per the rulebook) and use Mata >> Hari's text (play a card requiring a clan as if she were a member of >> that clan) even if she's still in torpor. > > Are you pulling my leg? Can you really do that? This is new. So you can > play the card because Samson is ready, and you use Mata Hari's special > ability to make the card consider her a Ventrue Antitribu? > > LSJ, can we get a confirmation here, please? No. Her special won't apply to playing master cards if she isn't ready, since she needs to be ready to meet any clan requirement of a master card. -- LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply) Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ wrote: > Daneel wrote: > > On 2 May 2005 13:31:33 -0700, <jnew...@difsol.com> wrote: > >> Only if he later goes to torpor. As long as Samson stays ready, you can > >> play the VI (control a ready ventrue, per the rulebook) and use Mata > >> Hari's text (play a card requiring a clan as if she were a member of > >> that clan) even if she's still in torpor. > > > > Are you pulling my leg? Can you really do that? This is new. So you can > > play the card because Samson is ready, and you use Mata Hari's special > > ability to make the card consider her a Ventrue Antitribu? > > > > LSJ, can we get a confirmation here, please? > > No. Her special won't apply to playing master cards if she isn't ready, > since she needs to be ready to meet any clan requirement of a master > card. Her text: "You and she may play cards that require a sect and/or clan as if she were of that required sect and/or clan." There's nothing in there that says she needs to be the ready minion I "spot" to play master cards requiring a sect or clan, merely that I can play such cards "as if she were of that sect and/or clan." John [ quoted text not captured ]

In order for you to play a clan master card you need to control a ready member of that clan. Mata allows you to play a master card from any clan, but she needs to be ready to fulfill the other criteria.

Robert Scythe wrote: > In order for you to play a clan master card you need to control a ready > member of that clan. Like Samson (in the example above). > Mata allows you to play a master card from any > clan, but she needs to be ready to fulfill the other criteria. Her text does not say she needs to be ready for her ability to work. (If it did she would not be able to play Recure of the Homeland). It may be somehow implicit, but it's not in the plain English. Per her text I may play Ventrue Investment "as if she were of [clan Ventrue Antitribu]". Since she is not ready, this is not sufficient to meet the rules "control a ready minion of that clan", but Samson is. I meet the requirements to play the card, and per Mata's text I can play such a card as if she were !Ventrue. Unless there's something implicit in her text that's just not coming through to me. John

[ quoted text not captured ] A couple of questions: Can you use two different vampires to satisfy the requirements to play a card? For example, if there were a master card that required a Ventrue Prince, I couldn't use Jazz Wentworth to satisfy the Ventrue requirement, and Gilbert Duance to satisfy the Prince requirement. I would have to have a vampire like Emerson Bridges (who is both Ventrue and a Prince) out and ready to satisfy all the requirements to play the card, correct? Also, for Ventrue Investment, though Mata Hari can play the card 'as a !Ventrue', it doesn't actually make her one, does it? So she wouldn't count 'as a !Ventrue you control' for determining how many blood counters you put on VI, right? Chris, aka Martin, Elder of Clan Tremere

[ quoted text not captured ] Pretty convincing argument. Quite logical; I'm convinced. Of course, I'm not officially convinced, just common sense logically convinced; only LSJ can officially convince me. ;) LSJ? -- Bye, Daneel

On Tue, 03 May 2005 20:46:29 GMT, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] tsk. bad people. say you don't have a samson. just a mata hari in torpor. you want to play VI. can't, no ready !ven. now you have samson. he's a ready !ven. you want to play VI. It requires a ready !ven to play. so, who meets this requirement? Samson, and no one else. so you play the card. it gets one counter, because Samson is the only !ven you control. You can't play it using mata's ability, because she is in torpor. she does not meet the requirements of playing the card. she meets one requirement, !ven, but not the other requirement, "ready". now, because you were not playing the card with mata's ability, the VI card does not treat her as !ven, because as we know the "play as if X..." things are only treated as X by the specific cards that they are playing as X. So, because it was Samson allowing you to play VI and not Mata, the card only gets one counter. salem http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

salem wrote: > tsk. bad people. > > say you don't have a samson. just a mata hari in torpor. > > you want to play VI. can't, no ready !ven. > > now you have samson. he's a ready !ven. > > you want to play VI. It requires a ready !ven to play. so, who meets > this requirement? Samson, and no one else. so you play the card. it > gets one counter, because Samson is the only !ven you control. You > can't play it using mata's ability, because she is in torpor. she does > not meet the requirements of playing the card. she meets one > requirement, !ven, but not the other requirement, "ready". Samson and Mata Hari do not play Master cards. Methuselahs do. Methuselahs must meet the requirements (in this case, control a ready !Ventrue). But Mata Hari's text does not say that I may play cards requiring a clan as if I met the requirements of those cards, it says I may play them as if she were a member of that clan (which, while she is ready, happens to mean I may that I may play them as if I meet the requirements by doing so). > now, because you were not playing the card with mata's ability, the VI > card does not treat her as !ven, because as we know the "play as if > X..." things are only treated as X by the specific cards that they are > playing as X. So, because it was Samson allowing you to play VI and > not Mata, the card only gets one counter. Mata Hari's ability to play cards herself is not at issue. She also allows her controller to play cards as if she were of the clan/sect that they require. Nothing in her text (explicitly) states that she must be ready for me to do so. If it's meant to be that way, fine. But it's not clear from the text. > salem > http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm > (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email) John

On Wed, 04 May 2005 07:31:38 +1000, salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote: > tsk. bad people. > > say you don't have a samson. just a mata hari in torpor. > > you want to play VI. can't, no ready !ven. > > now you have samson. he's a ready !ven. > > you want to play VI. It requires a ready !ven to play. so, who meets > this requirement? Samson, and no one else. so you play the card. it > gets one counter, because Samson is the only !ven you control. You > can't play it using mata's ability, because she is in torpor. she does > not meet the requirements of playing the card. she meets one > requirement, !ven, but not the other requirement, "ready". > > now, because you were not playing the card with mata's ability, the VI > card does not treat her as !ven, because as we know the "play as if > X..." things are only treated as X by the specific cards that they are > playing as X. So, because it was Samson allowing you to play VI and > not Mata, the card only gets one counter. According to my interpretation... Mata Hari, when you play a card that requires a clan, may choose the card being played to consider her to be a member of that clan. In our example, this means that if she chooses, she is considered a Ventrue Antitribu for the duration of playing Ventrue Investment. If we do not look beyond that time scope, her status is exactly the same as Samson's with respect to the VI being played. Meaning, that if you can play VI and it gets 2 counters when Mata Hari is ready and Samson is torpid, the exact same result should occur if they are the other way around. The key question is: is Mata Hari's text somehow magically limited to mimicking a clan when she is used to play the card, or is it lacking such apparently missing restriction? -- Bye, Daneel

<jnew...@difsol.com> wrote in message news:1115123181....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > > Robert Scythe wrote: > > In order for you to play a clan master card you need to control a > ready > > member of that clan. > > Like Samson (in the example above). > > > Mata allows you to play a master card from any > > clan, but she needs to be ready to fulfill the other criteria. > > Her text does not say she needs to be ready for her ability to work. > (If it did she would not be able to play Recure of the Homeland). It > may be somehow implicit, but it's not in the plain English. Specific card text to the contrary (of course) How does any dirt-bod do anything if they're not-ready? New Meth's got a dream she gets these bods, dirt naps them keeps them in the basement y'see. Thinks it gives her special powers.

carl wrote: > <jnew...@difsol.com> wrote in message > news:1115123181....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > > > > Robert Scythe wrote: > > > In order for you to play a clan master card you need to control a > > ready > > > member of that clan. > > > > Like Samson (in the example above). > > > > > Mata allows you to play a master card from any > > > clan, but she needs to be ready to fulfill the other criteria. > > > > Her text does not say she needs to be ready for her ability to work. > > (If it did she would not be able to play Recure of the Homeland). It > > may be somehow implicit, but it's not in the plain English. > > Specific card text to the contrary (of course) > How does any dirt-bod do anything if they're not-ready? They don't take actions except the leave torpor. They don't react. But their text is active, by default. See also Mariel, Lady Thunder. If Mata Hari's text said "When she is ready, you and she...", she would not be able to play Recure of the Homeland, because she would not be able to use her text to mimic !Tremere when she was in torpor. That she *can* play Recure of the Homeland is good and consistent. Likewise, if her text said (or if it is meant to imply) that "you and she may play cards that require a sect or clan as if she met that sect/clan requirement", then it wouldn't matter and my example would be moot. But it is not clear from the text alone that she must be used to meet the requirements of master cards I play when I use her text. Of course we have to take LSJ's last post as the official clarification (for now, at least), but it'd be nice if he said something more on the issue. > New Meth's got a dream she gets these bods, dirt naps them keeps them in the > basement y'see. Thinks it gives her special powers. John

jnewqu...@difsol.com wrote: > Likewise, if her text said (or if it is meant to imply) that "you and > she may play cards that require a sect or clan as if she met that > sect/clan requirement", then it wouldn't matter and my example would be > moot. But it is not clear from the text alone that she must be used to > meet the requirements of master cards I play when I use her text. > > Of course we have to take LSJ's last post as the official clarification > (for now, at least), but it'd be nice if he said something more on the > issue. http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/11099869a914f58d?hl=en

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:1115219759....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] But that would mean "requires a ready anarch" text means the anarch cards can be played by anyone once one anarch (or matahari) is available - unlike "prereq" symbols which appear on the side of the card. The side of the card showing that the meth has gained influence in that clan or has familiarity with their movements, where the "requires a text" seems to indicate the acting vamp needs a skill, mindset or clout to dare to carry out there action.

carl wrote: > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/11099869a914f58d?hl=en > > But that would mean "requires a ready anarch" text means the anarch cards > can be played by anyone once one anarch (or matahari) is available - unlike No, it doesn't. > "prereq" symbols which appear on the side of the card. The side of the card > showing that the meth has gained influence in that clan or has familiarity > with their movements, where the "requires a text" seems to indicate the > acting vamp needs a skill, mindset or clout to dare to carry out there > action. "Requires a" in text or as a symbol on the side of a card means the same thing: the thing that is required is required. Minion cards can only be played by minions that meet the requirements. Master cards can only be played by Methuselahs who control ready minions who meet the requirements. [ quoted text not captured ]

I took "All abilities that allow any minion to play a card that requires something which the minion lacks as "as if this minion has/is that required something ..."" any minion to mean ANY minion rather than to mean a minon (is in this specific minion) Good we been playing it right then. We had to firm up when anarch came along cause everyone cyrpted a couple of wee anarchs and lot of Moles and stuff turned up. Made for bland games.