Some Questions Pt 2

1) Can multiple copies of Rumors of Gehenna be out at the same time ? I call a vote and name myself and Meth A as being able to play 2 master cards. On Meth B's turn, he calls another Rumors of Gehenna vote naming himself, and Meth C. Is that legal? 2) This stuff about retainers doing damage is still a bit confusing. If I've got a pair of Ghoul Retainers outfitted, and they use a flame thrower as their weapon, can the targeted minion dodge this ? Would one dodge take out my attack, and both of theirs? Or would it require 3 dodges, if it can be dodged at all ? 3) Can allies recruit non-specific retainers. IE, could a Renegade Garou recruit a Ghoul Escort or Ghoul Retainer ? Thanks and thanks! We're gearing up for a weekend of Jyhads tomorrow, so I'm getting as many of these questions out of the way as possible. :)

In article <323u5.784$3S.1...@nnrp1.sbc.net>, "De Nada" <a...@media.net> wrote: > 1) Can multiple copies of Rumors of Gehenna be out at the same time ? I call > a vote and name myself and Meth A as being able to play 2 master cards. On > Meth B's turn, he calls another Rumors of Gehenna vote naming himself, and > Meth C. Is that legal? Rumors of Gehenna Type: Political Action Card Text: Worth 1 vote. Called by any vampire at +1 stealth. Choose a set of Methuselahs. Successful vote means each chosen Methuselah receives 2 master phase actions during his or her master phase (instead of 1). Any vampire can burn this card with a successful vote; calling this vote is a +1 stealth action. Yes, multiple Rumors can be played, but their effects are not cumulative - i.e. you can only gain a total of 2 master phases by Rumors alone. In your example, Meth B can call a second Rumors, but would still only have 2 Master Phases in total (unless he had a Parthenon). Remember, you can vote down Rumors. (You would need a Parthenon to gain an extra Master phase, giving a max of 3) > 2) This stuff about retainers doing damage is still a bit confusing. If I've > got a pair of Ghoul Retainers outfitted, and they use a flame thrower as > their weapon, can the targeted minion dodge this ? Would one dodge take out > my attack, and both of theirs? Or would it require 3 dodges, if it can be > dodged at all ? Ghoul Retainer Type: Retainer Pool Cost: 2 Card Text: Retainer with 2 life. Each round of combat during strike resolution, Ghoul can inflict 1 damage or use a weapon the controlling vampire is not using during that round of combat. Because damage occurs during Strike resolution, it is outside of normal strikes. It cannot be dodged, and cannot be prevented with cards that "prevent damage from a strike". > 3) Can allies recruit non-specific retainers. IE, could a Renegade Garou > recruit a Ghoul Escort or Ghoul Retainer ? Yes Of course I am notoriously wrong, so best wait for LSJ! DH Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

On Fri, 8 Sep 2000, De Nada wrote: > 1) Can multiple copies of Rumors of Gehenna be out at the same time ? I call > a vote and name myself and Meth A as being able to play 2 master cards. On > Meth B's turn, he calls another Rumors of Gehenna vote naming himself, and > Meth C. Is that legal? Indeed. You can have multiples in play, each naming its a Methuselah or set of Methuselahs. Of course, no matter how many times a Methuselah is named he never gets more than 2 master cards per turn. > 2) This stuff about retainers doing damage is still a bit confusing. If I've > got a pair of Ghoul Retainers outfitted, and they use a flame thrower as > their weapon, can the targeted minion dodge this ? Would one dodge take out > my attack, and both of theirs? Or would it require 3 dodges, if it can be > dodged at all ? It cannot be dodged at all. Attacks by retainers are not considered strikes (this includes Wolf Companion, etc). > 3) Can allies recruit non-specific retainers. IE, could a Renegade Garou > recruit a Ghoul Escort or Ghoul Retainer ? Yes. You could also get clan or discipline-specific retainers on that Garou, you have to use the Succubus club (and bribe someone accross table for his cooperation). Allies can also recruit non-specific allies.

De Nada wrote: > > 1) Can multiple copies of Rumors of Gehenna be out at the same time ? I call > a vote and name myself and Meth A as being able to play 2 master cards. On > Meth B's turn, he calls another Rumors of Gehenna vote naming himself, and > Meth C. Is that legal? Yes. B could even name you or Meth A on that his Rumors - and you'd still just get 2 Master Phase Actions (per card text). > 2) This stuff about retainers doing damage is still a bit confusing. If I've > got a pair of Ghoul Retainers outfitted, and they use a flame thrower as > their weapon, can the targeted minion dodge this ? Would one dodge take out > my attack, and both of theirs? Or would it require 3 dodges, if it can be > dodged at all ? Damage from retainers cannot be dodged, since dodge only negates the effect of the opposing minion's strike [6.4.5] > 3) Can allies recruit non-specific retainers. IE, could a Renegade Garou > recruit a Ghoul Escort or Ghoul Retainer ? Yes. Allies can also equip, recruit other allies, take action-card actions or actions as allowed by cards in play, etc. Allies cannot call votes, encounter vampires in torpor to rescue or to diablerize, or hunt. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

>> 3) Can allies recruit non-specific retainers. IE, could a Renegade Garou >> recruit a Ghoul Escort or Ghoul Retainer ? > >Yes. >Allies can also equip, recruit other allies, take action-card actions or >actions as allowed by cards in play, >etc. >Allies cannot call votes, encounter vampires in torpor to rescue or to >diablerize, or hunt. But a Renegade Garou wouldn't be able to use the Ghoul Escort, and the Ghoul Retainer would only be able to inflict the 1 damage (can't use weapons), since those two cards both refer to "vampire" or "controlling vampire," right? Or...? Halcyan 2

On 9 Sep 2000, Halcyan 2 wrote: > But a Renegade Garou wouldn't be able to use the Ghoul Escort, and the > Ghoul Retainer would only be able to inflict the 1 damage (can't use > weapons), since those two cards both refer to "vampire" or > "controlling vampire," right? Or...? Heh Heh! To fully understand this requires a history lesson. The Jyhad copy of Ghoul Escort said "All Kindred", so the Garou could not (originally) get one at all except via Succubus Club. Consistent with the "all kindred" restriction, it referred to the employing "vampire". The Jyhad copy of Ghoul Retainer has no such restriction, and sefers to the employing minion, not the employing vampires. A Garou could both employ and use them. Then V:tES came around, and some clueless editor messed with the wording for no good reason. By default, the V:tES text takes precedence, unless errata is issued: "All Kindred" was removed from Ghoul Escort, so that Garous could now employ them but not use them. The text on "Ghoul Retainer" changed the word "minion" to "vampire". Garous could employ them but not use them. Similar rewording occurred on many other retainers (including other removals of "All Kindred" restrictions from retainers that had them, such as Jackie Therman and Tasha Morgan). Finally (I believe some time last year) it was decided by our wise Rules Team that this was a dumb mistake, and it did not make sense for allies not to be able to use their retainers. Errata was issued saying that references to the employing vampire should be interpreted as references to the employing minion, unless the power granted was such that it only applied to vampires (eg. Faithful Servant). This effectively restored the original intent and function of most retainer cards, except that some (like Ghoul Escort) were now usable by allies where they were not previously, due to the removed "Kindred only" restriction. One of the reasons I like having cards from the original set is that they help you understand the history of the game. Normally, the V:tes text is supposed to take precedence, but the V:tes rewrites made so many screwups that had to be fixed by errata, that the Jyhad text is often more accurate. Using the card whose text is correct often avoids arguments (ie. Immortal Grapple). Sadly, allies lost access to other resouces as well, and this has not been fixed by errata (you can't issue errata for everything). For instance, Allies used to be able to benefit from Mob Connections, but "minion" got changed to "vampire". So the V:tES text stands as the official version (the errata applied only to retainers). -- John Whelan

>Heh Heh! To fully understand this requires a history lesson. (Rest is snipped) Well, the main reason I asked this, was that I was reading that thread about Talaq and the Infernal Familiar a while ago. Since LSJ said that the "vampire" reference in Infernal Familiar does not allow Talaq to use all of the Familiar's abilities, it makes me wonder if this is true with allies using other retainers. Any thoughts? Halcyan 2

On 10 Sep 2000, Halcyan 2 wrote: > Well, the main reason I asked this, was that I was reading that thread > about Talaq and the Infernal Familiar a while ago. Since LSJ said that > the "vampire" reference in Infernal Familiar does not allow Talaq to > use all of the Familiar's abilities, it makes me wonder if this is > true with allies using other retainers. Any thoughts? The text of the errata is as follows: Any reference to an employing vampire is a reference to the employing minion, unless the retainer's ability clearly applies only to a vampire (ie. unless the ability affects blood, disciplines, clan, sect, capacity, titles, or votes). So this would exclude Infernal Familiar, whose ability affects both disciplines and capacity. By this standard, the text on Infernal Familiar really does mean "Vampire". Talaq cannot use it, because he is not a vampire. (Though, ironically, had the card said "Minion" the ability would have been applicable to him because of his special abilities). -- John Whelan

John Whelan <jbwh...@amanda.dorsai.org> wrote: > Finally (I believe some time last year) it was decided by our > wise Rules Team that this was a dumb mistake, and it did not > make sense for allies not to be able to use their retainers. > Errata was issued saying that references to the employing > vampire should be interpreted as references to the employing > minion, unless the power granted was such that it only applied > to vampires (eg. Faithful Servant). That errata was made quite some time ago, and by a Rules Team with a different composition than the one to which you attribute it. [RTR 30-MAY-1996]: 13) Any retainer that refers to the "vampire" employing the retainer should be read as referring to the "minion" employing the retainer instead, unless the retainer's ability involves something that clearly only applies to vampires, such as rescuing vampires in torpor or burning blood. Note that this is only likely to be relevant for retainers without a Discipline or clan requirement, but the errata still applies to those with such a requirement. This includes: Ghoul Escort, Ghoul Retainer, Guiseppe, J.S. Simmons, Jackal (from Ancient Hearts), Jackie Therman, Mr. Winthrop, Owl Companion, Raven Spy, Resplendent Protector, Spiritual Protector, Tasha Morgan, Wolf Companion, and Zombie. The errata was refined in [RTR 05-JAN-1999]: Retainers. The current ruling that "Any reference to the employing vampire should be a reference to the employing minion, unless the retainer's ability clearly only applies to a vampire." is a little vague. The following are "clearly" vampire-only: effects that burn or gain blood, effects that grant or remove disciplines (or clan or sect status, for that matter, not that there are any such retainers currently), effects that alter capacity, and/or effects that grant or remove titles or votes (again, not that the current set includes any of these). Everything else (including bleed, intercept, stealth, and combat modifiers) are applicable to allies as well as vampires. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]