Help!

Hi, someone I play with seems to have found a wicked combo: with a Ex-Nihilo-ed vamp: Trap - sup. conflagration- Toughts Betrayed - meat hook => discard your deck The only defence I can think of is: 1. Ivory Bow, or other ranged aggro equipment but then he will just rush someone else (on stealth) 2. Tons of maneuvres and/or flashes. But he has that too... Am I missing anything? J

[ quoted text not captured ] How do you plan to actually inflict any damage to your opponent with that combo? Sten During

Jeroen wrote: > > Hi, > > someone I play with seems to have found a wicked combo: > > with a Ex-Nihilo-ed vamp: Trap - sup. conflagration- Toughts Betrayed > - meat hook Conflagration is useless here, since its damage will be reduced to zero by the Ex Nihilo. > => discard your deck > > The only defence I can think of is: > 1. Ivory Bow, or other ranged aggro equipment but then he will just > rush someone else (on stealth) ... after being rescued, if no one blocks the rescue. Even if the rescue goes through, that's 3 blood (2 for the rescue and 1for the Ex Nihilo), 1 pool (infernal), and two actions wasted. > 2. Tons of maneuvres and/or flashes. But he has that too... ?? How does he fit it all in? > > Am I missing anything? Sudden the Master: Discipline card (since no vampire has nec DAI dom inherently) Block the Ex-Nihilo. Block the Meat Hook. Obedience. Break the Meat Hook with potence. Coma. Anathema + Steal Blood. Illusions of the Kindred. Mariel, Lady Thunder. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Jeroen <joen...@hotmail.com> skrev i diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:5f0d2397.0210...@posting.google.com... > Hi, > > someone I play with seems to have found a wicked combo: > > with a Ex-Nihilo-ed vamp: Trap - sup. conflagration- Toughts Betrayed > - meat hook conflaguration? you mean fear of the void below? but that will default the range to long each round... problem - your meat hook is now useless! what you need is cailean, with a meat hook, ex nihilo, entering combat playing thoughts betrayed, inf drawing out the beast, sup fear of the void... And if you get that combo off, you probably need to wake up, cause you're dreaming! =) LSJ question: what would happen if there were a card that defaulted range to close each round, and both that and FotVB were played in the same combat? /henrik isaksson

Henrik Isaksson wrote: > LSJ question: what would happen if there were a card that defaulted range to close each round, and > both that and FotVB were played in the same combat? Moot. Cards that re-state existing rules aren't well-designed (Sleeping Mind Sabbat version, for instance). [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > > Henrik Isaksson wrote: > > LSJ question: what would happen if there were a card that defaulted range to close each round, and > > both that and FotVB were played in the same combat? > > Moot. Cards that re-state existing rules aren't well-designed (Sleeping Mind Sabbat > version, for instance). That should be "except as reminder text", of course. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

OOOOPS! Of course it isn't conflagration that I meant. It was Fear of the Void Below. Recap: Great Beast (DOM NEC DAI) Ex-nihilo rush - trap - FotVB - Toughts Betrayed - meathook Jeroen 6 cups of coffee still not enough?

Jeroen wrote: > > OOOOPS! > > Of course it isn't conflagration that I meant. It was Fear of the Void Below. > > Recap: > Great Beast (DOM NEC DAI) > Ex-nihilo > rush - trap - FotVB - Toughts Betrayed - meathook So, what's it do? Meat Hook isn't effective at long range. Thought's Betrayed is pretty expensive for a guy who's losing blood like a seive. And which vampire is he using that has nec DAI dom/DOM? [ quoted text not captured ]

"Jeroen" <joen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:5f0d2397.02102...@posting.google.com... > OOOOPS! > > Of course it isn't conflagration that I meant. It was Fear of the Void Below. > > Recap: > Great Beast (DOM NEC DAI) > Ex-nihilo > rush - trap - FotVB - Toughts Betrayed - meathook Hey everyone...remember what the meathook does. It only requires that the opponent not DODGE the strike to get the option press. Combined with thoughts betrayed, there are very few (are there any?) vampires that can dodge as a strike. Equipment such as the treasured samadi will allow you to dodge as a strike, so there's one way out of it. Man...overall that's a pretty nasty combo if he can pull it off. Of course, you could take advantage of the fact that he's dialing up the great beast and that takes a while. Why not block the Great Beast action or DI the card altogether? Other than that, its a 4 card combo...don't know how often he'd be able to reliably pull it off. Too many moving parts to be effective regularly. Pretty nasty, though... Of course, he could use Huitzilopochtli or whatever his name is and give him the sargon fragment. That would be INFINITELY quicker to pull off and get moving, especially as you're losing pool each turn to keep your infernals untapped... Or good old Ian Forestal with a master card and Infernal Pact (wouldn't that be ironic? Getting Daimoinon with an Infernal Pact?) BTW, will that card ever be errated to make the minion infernal? I'd assume no, as it costs a pool...just thought if it were free, was non-unique and added the infernal trait, it could be a much more interesting card... [ quoted text not captured ]

Jon Stahler wrote: > "Jeroen" <joen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:5f0d2397.02102...@posting.google.com... > >>OOOOPS! >> >>Of course it isn't conflagration that I meant. It was Fear of the Void > > Below. > >>Recap: >>Great Beast (DOM NEC DAI) >>Ex-nihilo >>rush - trap - FotVB - Toughts Betrayed - meathook > > > Hey everyone...remember what the meathook does. It only requires that the > opponent not DODGE the strike to get the option press. Combined with > thoughts betrayed, there are very few (are there any?) vampires that can > dodge as a strike. Equipment such as the treasured samadi will allow you to > dodge as a strike, so there's one way out of it. Well, Meat Hook has to be used at close to trigger, and FotVB defaults range to long. > > Of course, he could use Huitzilopochtli or whatever his name is and give him > the sargon fragment. That would be INFINITELY quicker to pull off and get > moving, especially as you're losing pool each turn to keep your infernals > untapped... Would need something to set range to close first. A small Nos to enable you to play Storm Sewers for example. Then remains how to make sure you're blocked again after you've pulled it off the first time :) Sten During

"Sten During" <ya...@netg.se> wrote in message news:3DB96607...@netg.se... > > > Jon Stahler wrote: > > "Jeroen" <joen...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:5f0d2397.02102...@posting.google.com... > > > >>OOOOPS! > >> > >>Of course it isn't conflagration that I meant. It was Fear of the Void > > > > Below. > > > >>Recap: > >>Great Beast (DOM NEC DAI) > >>Ex-nihilo > >>rush - trap - FotVB - Toughts Betrayed - meathook > > > > > > Hey everyone...remember what the meathook does. It only requires that the > > opponent not DODGE the strike to get the option press. Combined with > > thoughts betrayed, there are very few (are there any?) vampires that can > > dodge as a strike. Equipment such as the treasured samadi will allow you to > > dodge as a strike, so there's one way out of it. > > Well, Meat Hook has to be used at close to trigger, and FotVB defaults > range to long. True. I don't play with those damn infernals, so I don't have a good working knowledge of DAI cards...regardless, there is a trap in play. Just packing some extra presses would solve the problems here. > > > > > Of course, he could use Huitzilopochtli or whatever his name is and give him > > the sargon fragment. That would be INFINITELY quicker to pull off and get > > moving, especially as you're losing pool each turn to keep your infernals > > untapped... > > Would need something to set range to close first. A small Nos to enable > you to play Storm Sewers for example. There's no need to set the range to close. All he's looking to do is discard a card from the opposing minion's hand. I think the meathook is just there to provide an extra press. The goal, of course, is to keep going and eventually discard the opponents entire library and hand. Technically, with the right draw and enough presses, this would be possible. Why not just stack multiple traps? Would do just the same I'd imagine...sure, you have to play them on the first round of combat...but still....finding two presses to end when you're randomly discarding a card from your hand each round could be tough.

"Jon Stahler" <sta...@ilir.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news:BOeu9.7598$US2....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu... > > "Sten During" <ya...@netg.se> wrote in message > news:3DB96607...@netg.se... [re: Great Beast or Huitzilopochtli with Ex Nihilo, Meat Hook, Fear of the Void Below, Trap, Thoughts Betrayed, for infinite-library-discardage] > > Would need something to set range to close first. A small Nos to enable > > you to play Storm Sewers for example. > > There's no need to set the range to close. All he's looking to do is > discard a card from the opposing minion's hand. I think the meathook is > just there to provide an extra press. The goal, of course, is to keep > going and eventually discard the opponents entire library and hand. > Technically, with the right draw and enough presses, this would be possible. > Why not just stack multiple traps? Would do just the same I'd > imagine...sure, you have to play them on the first round of combat...but > still....finding two presses to end when you're randomly discarding a card > from your hand each round could be tough. Well, the goal is to deplete any player's library in a single combat. With just Trap (no matter how many of them you play) you can't go over 4 rounds (and therefore 4 forced discards). The Meat Hooks are supposed to make combat last indefinitely (since with Ex Nihilo the Meat Hook strikes aren't inflicting damage but are giving presses), but the problem then is that Fear of the Void Below defaults range to long and there's no good way to get to close each round (that I can see - Cailean, yes, but him getting those disciplines adds all kinds of moving parts to the concept). If you work in a card that can be played to extend Trap-time, you can make the combat last as long as you can keep drawing that card, but you then burn 1/4 as many cards as your opponent does, so you'll probably eventually run out yourself and be somewhat less able to gain advantage from having run people out of cards. Josh disadvantaged demon

Jeroen wrote: > > OOOOPS! > > Of course it isn't conflagration that I meant. It was > Fear of the Void Below. > > Recap: > Great Beast (DOM NEC DAI) > Ex-nihilo > rush - trap - FotVB - Toughts Betrayed - meathook OK...but we still don't understand the point. Three rounds of not doing anything, then go home? What does this do for you? You might want to go through the functioning of each card. I suspect you have the wrong idea of how one or more of these cards functions. Or is it so brilliant, you'd have to kill us? ;-) Fred

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3DB94898...@white-wolf.com>... > Jeroen wrote: > > > > OOOOPS! > > > > Of course it isn't conflagration that I meant. It was Fear of the Void Below. > > > > Recap: > > Great Beast (DOM NEC DAI) > > Ex-nihilo > > rush - trap - FotVB - Toughts Betrayed - meathook > > So, what's it do? > Meat Hook isn't effective at long range. > Thought's Betrayed is pretty expensive for a guy who's losing blood like > a seive. > And which vampire is he using that has nec DAI dom/DOM? i dont really get the evil combo either, but i guess he would be using 'Great Beast (DOM NEC DAI)' like he said ;)

Darky wrote: || i dont really get the evil combo either, but i guess he would be || using 'Great Beast (DOM NEC DAI)' like he said ;) the only combo i would use with the great beast should involve his monsterstrength, a coupla grapples and a lot of dead bodies =)

I think what this thread is looking for is the fact that trap states that "During the press step, if any Methuselah has played a card earlier in the current round or during the two previous rounds, the Trap automatically provides a press to continue (either combatant can press to end)." The combo is not destructive since cards have to be played, and not discarded. A discard does not count as a played card, therefore combat does not continue indefinitely, and the combo cannot deplete the entire library in one combat. Does this make any sense? Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message news:<3DB98F62...@removethis.com>... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:16:01 +0000, Joshua Duffin wrote: > Well, the goal is to deplete any player's library in a single combat. But, forgive me if I missed something, but there is no way to prevent a vampire with potence to break the Meat Hook, right? (yeah, I know, I shouldn't rush the POT guys, my mom tells me all the time) So, unless it's Cailean, the Meat Hook bearer can just be rushed by some pot punk (heh), and have his toy -and combo- broken. Francois

> But, forgive me if I missed something, but there is no way to prevent a > vampire with potence to break the Meat Hook, right? Yes, there are ways to prevent the potence-possessing vampire from destroying the meathook. Assuming they have been successful in entering combat and are at close range (e.g. they have not been Obedienced or the opposing vampire has not set range to long somehow or outmaneuvered them to long) a Strike: Combat Ends or Strike: Dodge will prevent them from destroying the Meat Hook as either will take effect before First Strike. An Immortal Grapple will also prevent them from attempting the strike to destroy the Meat Hook in the first place, as the strike to destroy the Meat Hook does not qualify as a hand strike ("any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based on the striking minion's strength, or any minion's non-ranged damage-dealing innate strike"). - Rafe

Frederick Scott <freds64_at_...@removethis.com> wrote in message news:<3DB98F62...@removethis.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Yup, missed the part of meathook that says that you only get a press when range is close. Jeroen needs to read the cards better :-(

[ quoted text not captured ] Ah. Then, of course, you block one of the Great Beast actions (instead of having to Sudden the discipline card). And now the "combo" is costing two more pool for the infernal delay. [ quoted text not captured ]