Developer Chat: How did it go?

Yup, I'm on a machine at work that does not have the java support for the chat client. How did it go? Any suprises we can look forward to? Any new rant-worthy topics? Any possibility of getting a transcript of the chat?

"Ped Xing" <ped_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:51ecf271.02082...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Who knows, it was disappointly short! -- Aaron The Nosferatu Stuff

>Who knows, it was disappointly short! Not to mention it started 30-40 minutes late... =) Halcyan 2

Ped Xing wrote: > Yup, I'm on a machine at work that does not have the java support for > the chat client. > > How did it go? It took nearly 1 hour, but very few questions were answered. Hopefully more of these will be held. :) > Any suprises we can look forward to? A few Anarch questions were made, a new card type and new victory mechanic were mentioned. :) > Any new rant-worthy topics? > > Any possibility of getting a transcript of the chat? A transcript will be made available, as mentioned in the webpage. There's a funny typo there too: 'The first ever V:TES Developer Chat _was held next Tuesday_' :) Flux

Flux wrote: > > Ped Xing wrote: > > Yup, I'm on a machine at work that does not have the java support for > > the chat client. > > > > How did it go? > > It took nearly 1 hour, but very few questions were answered. Hopefully > more of these will be held. :) You guys know that I post answers in places other than the chat room as well, right? :-) -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Flux wrote: > A few Anarch questions were made, a new card type and new victory > mechanic were mentioned. :) And these would be... Peter D Bakija PD...@bigplanet.com http://www.myplanet.net/pdb6 "I need a doctor, kinda, sorta. What's wrong with me? He said there's a skid mark on my aorta and there's no remedy." -The Donnas

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3D62E042...@white-wolf.com... > Flux wrote: > > > > Ped Xing wrote: > > > Yup, I'm on a machine at work that does not have the java support for > > > the chat client. > > > > > > How did it go? > > > > It took nearly 1 hour, but very few questions were answered. Hopefully > > more of these will be held. :) > > You guys know that I post answers in places other than the chat room > as well, right? :-) Hmmm..... Nah, I'll save any questions till after the transcript. I'm sure someone already asked about the layout. Ugh. How about the Monacle and rowan ring? Why the sudden need with the CE to bring they back into the rotation? Are those going back into the tournament legal list? [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:20:52 -0400, "Nosferatu Stuff" <roans...@yahoo.com> wrote: >How about the Monacle and rowan ring? Why the sudden need with the CE to >bring they back into the rotation? Are those going back into the tournament >legal list? The new tournament rules indicate that they are both going to be tournament legal again. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/veknRulesNew.html Changes from the January 1, 2002 rules 4.1 Monocle of Clarity and Rowan Ring are no longer banned. 6.4. The No Repeat Actions special floor rule for constructed tournaments is removed. 3.1.2 Added an alternative for seating 6, 7, or 11 players. Appendix A Removed the Elo formulas. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:56:21 -0400, Peter D Bakija <PD...@bigplanet.com> wrote: >Flux wrote: > >> A few Anarch questions were made, a new card type and new victory >> mechanic were mentioned. :) > >And these would be... I missed these particualar questions (got there late myself), though Steve Wieck did make mention that we will see new card types for your library and crypt. I'm intrigued :-) >Peter D Bakija BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 00:34:32 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >Flux wrote: >> >> Ped Xing wrote: >> > Yup, I'm on a machine at work that does not have the java support for >> > the chat client. >> > >> > How did it go? >> >> It took nearly 1 hour, but very few questions were answered. Hopefully >> more of these will be held. :) > >You guys know that I post answers in places other than the chat room >as well, right? :-) > >-- >LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Nice thing about a Developer Chat though is that people who normally may not participate in the newsgroup (and a few other select places) will get a chance to jump in and ask questions they may not have seen an answer to. I know for a fact that there were 2 people from the michigan group there today that never participate on the NG. Aaron (hey man!) obviously loved having all the VTES'ers in a chat room. Is there any way we could set up a regular rotation for a chat room? Like every Tuesday from 5-7pm EST, whether a developer is available or not?? Hopefully there will be a next time where more questions either get answered, or at least get a "We can't comment about it at this time" response. Cheers, BernieTime Lansing, Michigan

LSJ wrote: > Flux wrote: > >>Ped Xing wrote: >> >>>Yup, I'm on a machine at work that does not have the java support for >>>the chat client. >>> >>>How did it go? >> >>It took nearly 1 hour, but very few questions were answered. Hopefully >>more of these will be held. :) > > > You guys know that I post answers in places other than the chat room > as well, right? :-) Ah! Good luck getting you to answer anything besides rules questions. Ahn... 'good luck' to us, of course, not yourself :) You're easier to pull info out of in a Developer Chat, where you're supposed to answer us, and there are no rules questions to get in the way (mostly) ;) ...besides, I want another shot at those 13 boosters ;) I bet I had the largest answer (100, though I miscalculated and could actually get to 101) with no library cards _during the action_, too bad I misunderstood the question :( But next time... next time those boosters are mine, MINE!!!! Bwahahahaha...!!! Flux (who didn't get enough sleep today - I blame the Sun)

In message <vng6mu03r8j74bqrf...@4ax.com>, Chris. QJ <ro...@gmx.at> writes: >... a secret until further playtesting. ( i know, not really >satisfying, but that's how steve put it) > >and i think it was card type /mechanic (not necessaryly a victory >mechanic/condition) When this first came up, it seemed pretty clear to me it was a new form of library card. This came up a second time, in response to a question from Damnans, in which it seemed that it could be either a crypt or library card. I saw no mention of a victory condition. Re-writing the victory conditions would change the whole balance of the game, which is focused around the push/pull factor on pool. -- James Coupe PGP 0x5D623D5D Don't just clap. What's the use of that? EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 You there, gorgeous creature. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D Stop...that...bus!

Flux <fl...@netc.pt> wrote in message news:<3D633518...@netc.pt>... [ quoted text not captured ] Which sets us up nicely for the question: what is the largest amount of bleed reduction that can be achieved during 1 bleed? (Contingency planning+telepathic counter...) :) Tobias Deventer

Tobias wrote: > Which sets us up nicely for the question: what is the largest amount > of bleed reduction that can be achieved during 1 bleed? > > (Contingency planning+telepathic counter...) Contingency Planning doesn't reduce the bleed. It merely limits the pool loss (like Night Moves, Protected Resources, etc.) [ quoted text not captured ]

> Which sets us up nicely for the question: what is the largest amount > of bleed reduction that can be achieved during 1 bleed? > (Contingency planning+telepathic counter...) Contingency Planning doesn't actually reduce the bleed, does it? I thought it was one of those phrasings where you "ignore" the excess, but keep reducing off of the initial amount. (i.e. I bleed for 5, you Deflect, I play Contingency Planning, you play TC at superior, it's still a bleed for 3 that resolves for 1) But the maximum amount you can reduce a bleed, theoretically, is pretty large, and dependent on how many minions you have. Imagine a "perfect situation": Greta Kircher is Clan Impersonated to a Ravnos (or other Independent). You give her CHI and ser. You are being bled by a younger Camarilla (or Sabbat) vampire. Greta's ability : -1 Telepathic Counter at superior: -2 Ecstasy : -1 Banner of Neutrality : -1 Folderol : -1 Ignis Fatuus at superior : -1 Rewind Time at outferior : -1 So that's a total bleed reduction of -8, just from one minion, and theoretically -7 from each other Independent CHI/AUS/ser/pre vampire you might control. Can you do better than -8 with a single minion?

Nosferatu Stuff wrote: > How about the Monacle and rowan ring? Why the sudden need with the CE to > bring they back into the rotation? Are those going back into the tournament > legal list? They already are legal again (well, you know, as soon as CE is tournament legal). Well, now that they are legal, the Monocle and Rowan Ring I already own are playable, which is good, so I put them in decks. The Monocle is really fun, and kinda useful in its current form. Sure, you can't catch your prey up in an inpenetrable web of twisted logic anymore, but you can ask your prey "do you have any Wakes or Forced's in your hand currently?", which is kinda handy, especially for a free effect that you get to use every turn. Sure, I'm not putting one in every deck I have (well, actually only one deck, as I only own one :-), but in a deck that can occasionally waste actions equipping with dumb stuff like that, it is kinda handy. [ quoted text not captured ]

Flux <fl...@netc.pt> wrote in message news:<3D633518...@netc.pt>... > > ...besides, I want another shot at those 13 boosters ;) I bet I had the > largest answer (100, though I miscalculated and could actually get to > 101) with no library cards _during the action_, too bad I misunderstood > the question :( But next time... next time those boosters are mine, > MINE!!!! Bwahahahaha...!!! > Actually Flux, I've been thinking and found out that you could do more than that ... remember that little equipment named Inveraray, Scotland? ;) Until next time, Phelan Kell

Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message news:<2HL89.233171$uj.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] Don't think so. Tobias Deventer http://deventerbynight.freewebspace.com

[ quoted text not captured ] Of course I do, I was using it. 90 card deck: - 2 Auspex Masters - Clan Impersonation (Baali) - Pulse of the Canaille (+2) - Inveraray (+3, fully charged) - Legendary Vampire (+2) - 84 D'habi Revenants (+84) - Spiridonas ability, fully charged (cap 11, +9) Total: 1 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 84 + 9 = 101 :) Flux

Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message news:<2HL89.233171$uj.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>... [ quoted text not captured ] Well, let's get into hypothetical silliness. Matthias can reduce a bleed by the same amount, with the proper disciplines, against Samat Ramal-Ra ( or any other Settite or Baali who happens to be Cam or Sab), Protected Resources and a Telepathic Counter at superior can reduce a bleed for 5 million to zero (technically yes, it is a bleed for 5 million that resolves for zero, but this is fun!), and Greta, with all those cool disciplines, can reduce a bleed from a younger Gangrel (with Gangrel De-evolution on her) by 9. Wow, that IS pretty silly (and I suppose you can just block that minion with 20 laptops anyway). Robert Scythe

> Sab), Protected Resources and a Telepathic Counter at superior can > reduce a bleed for 5 million to zero (technically yes, it is a bleed > for 5 million that resolves for zero, but this is fun!), and Greta, > with all those cool disciplines, can reduce a bleed from a younger > Gangrel (with Gangrel De-evolution on her) by 9. Wow, that IS pretty > silly (and I suppose you can just block that minion with 20 laptops > anyway). Protected Resources + Telepathic Counter will not reduce a bleed from 5 million to zero. It will reduce the bleed from 5 million to 4,999,998, and then you burn two pool for it. And Gangrel De-Evolution already has reduced the bleed stat of a vampire, and the question was about "during the action". Sure if you give a Gangrel a permanent -1 bleed you might be able to count it, but I still think that my earlier answer is the best you can do with 'effects' during the bleed.

> Well, let's get into hypothetical silliness. Matthias can reduce a > bleed by the same amount, with the proper disciplines, against Samat > Ramal-Ra ( or any other Settite or Baali who happens to be Cam or > Sab), Protected Resources and a Telepathic Counter at superior can > reduce a bleed for 5 million to zero (technically yes, it is a bleed > for 5 million that resolves for zero, but this is fun!), No, it doesn't go that way. Protected Resources just limits your pool lose due to a bleed to 2, but doesn't effectively reduce the bleed. So with PR if you are being bled for 5 milions, if you play a TC you are still being bled for 5 milions-2, but will only burn 2 pool. The bleeder may still be Archon Investigated, or bounced to your prey. so your prey will have the loss of 5 milions. It's much the same as for Flesh of Marble. Stelios

Flux <fl...@netc.pt> escribió en el mensaje de noticias 3D649EB0...@netc.pt... [ quoted text not captured ] And a total of 90 equiping, and 11 turns hunting. Total: 101 turns. That's a bleed for one each turn :-P > > > Flux >

tobiasop...@hotmail.com (Tobias) wrote: >Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message [ quoted text not captured ] Methuselah A controls Constanza. Her prey is Methuselah B, and she controls Greta and Sir Ralph Hamilton and a random Ventrue. Assuming Constanza was the one bleeding, and that she has impersonated a Follower of Set and has a Writ of Acceptance to maintain her Camarillaness, and had played a Foreshadowing of Destruction at superior (and Methuselah B has 8 pool). Greta reduces the bleed as above. (-8) Then Greta blocks Constanza and, with the appropriate skills and a weather control, burns the following retainers and equipment possessed by Constanza: J.S. Simmons (-1), Tasha Morgan (-1), a Laptop (-1) with Canine Horde, and X Priestesses of Sekmet (-X). Then, when Constanza plays Form of Mist to continue, Greta wakes and deflects the bleed by Constanza (who also has Y Draughts of the Soul and a Tier of Souls) to Methuselah C (-Y for the DoS and -1 for the ToS and -1 for Sir Ralph) who has 12 pool (-3 for the Foreshadowing) and no Ventrue (-2). So Greta reduces the bleed by -(18+X+Y). -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson

[ quoted text not captured ] But then you could go with Etrius doing the same, and bleeding for 96 every turn, with no need to hunt at all. After enough turns bleeding, you can get pretty close to the 96/turn ratio. :) Flux

>> And a total of 90 equiping, and 11 turns hunting. Total: 101 turns. Tha= >t's a >> bleed for one each turn :-P > >But then you could go with Etrius doing the same, and bleeding for 96=20 >every turn, with no need to hunt at all. After enough turns bleeding,=20 >you can get pretty close to the 96/turn ratio. :) Except that Etrius is bleeding 20 times while Spiridonas is only doing it once. Might be important if, say, your predator has a Form of Corruption in play. Halcyan 2

[ quoted text not captured ] Hm? Where did that 20 came from? Etrius would bleed for 96 *each turn*. Only 5 less than Spiridonas, and he can do it every turn, unlike Spiridonas, who has to refill after each bleed. Anyway, this is all theoretical and hypothetical, there's noone about to actually pull that combo. Is there? ;) Flux

>> Except that Etrius is bleeding 20 times while Spiridonas is only doing it >once. >> Might be important if, say, your predator has a Form of Corruption in play. > >Hm? Where did that 20 came from? > >Etrius would bleed for 96 *each turn*. Only 5 less than Spiridonas, and >he can do it every turn, unlike Spiridonas, who has to refill after each >bleed. nm. Must have misread things. Maybe I'll repost later. =) Halcyan 2

thela...@hotmail.com (The Lasombra) wrote in message news:<3d62f87f...@text.giganews.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] I was wondering if it were legal to have a tournament where everyone played the same number of rounds, including the final. Say 15 people participated in 2 rounds of random tables, coming to a final rank order. The top five would be in the finals, but could players 6-10 and 11-15 play in two more tables, under VEKN sanctioning just for ratings points though it wouldn't affect the outcome of the tournament? It might encourage people to play more games and help them develop a more true rating as they have more events under their belts. Jeff

Jeff Kuta wrote: > I was wondering if it were legal to have a tournament where everyone > played the same number of rounds, including the final. Say 15 people > participated in 2 rounds of random tables, coming to a final rank > order. The top five would be in the finals, but could players 6-10 and > 11-15 play in two more tables, under VEKN sanctioning just for ratings > points though it wouldn't affect the outcome of the tournament? It > might encourage people to play more games and help them develop a more > true rating as they have more events under their belts. No. Only the finalists play the final round. [ quoted text not captured ]

sjoh...@math.sc.edu (L. Scott Johnson) wrote in message news:<ak2l61$1fl44q$1...@ID-99714.news.dfncis.de>... [ quoted text not captured ] Scott, you have too much time on your hands. I applaud you for this one, though! Tobias Deventer

Flux <fl...@netc.pt> wrote in message news:<3D649EB0...@netc.pt>... [ quoted text not captured ] 90 card deck: - Clan Impersonation (Baali) - Inveraray (+3, fully charged) - Legendary Vampire (+2) - 87 D'habi Revenants (+87) - Spiridonas ability, fully charged (cap 11, +9) Total: 1 + 3 + 2 + 87 + 9 = 102 Tobias Deventer

"Stelios" <t...@almadrava.net> wrote in message news:<ak2gsj$hn1$1...@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>... > Flux <fl...@netc.pt> escribió en el mensaje de noticias > 3D649EB0...@netc.pt... > > Phelan Kell wrote: > > > Flux <fl...@netc.pt> wrote in message news:<3D633518...@netc.pt>... > > > > > > > > >>...besides, I want another shot at those 13 boosters ;) I bet I had the > > >>largest answer (100, though I miscalculated and could actually get to > > >>101) with no library cards _during the action_, too bad I misunderstood > > >>the question :( But next time... next time those boosters are mine, > > >>MINE!!!! Bwahahahaha...!!! > > >> > > > > > > > > > Actually Flux, I've been thinking and found out that you could do more > > > than that ... remember that little equipment named Inveraray, > > > Scotland? ;) > > > > Of course I do, I was using it. > > > > 90 card deck: > > - 2 Auspex Masters > > - Clan Impersonation (Baali) > > - Pulse of the Canaille (+2) > > - Inveraray (+3, fully charged) > > - Legendary Vampire (+2) > > - 84 D'habi Revenants (+84) > > - Spiridonas ability, fully charged (cap 11, +9) > > > > Total: 1 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 84 + 9 = 101 > > > > :) damn.,.. and as I touched send on the other reply, I forgot that spirdonas's cap was now 2 lower... arriving at 100 instead of 102 Ok

>> Methuselah A controls Constanza. Her prey is Methuselah B, and she >> controls Greta and Sir Ralph Hamilton and a random Ventrue. >> >> Assuming Constanza was the one bleeding, and that she has impersonated >> a Follower of Set and has a Writ of Acceptance to maintain her >> Camarillaness, and had played a Foreshadowing of Destruction at >> superior (and Methuselah B has 8 pool). >> >> Greta reduces the bleed as above. (-8) >> >> Then Greta blocks Constanza and, with the appropriate skills and a >> weather control, burns the following retainers and equipment >> possessed by Constanza: J.S. Simmons (-1), Tasha Morgan (-1), a Laptop >> (-1) with Canine Horde, and X Priestesses of Sekmet (-X). >> >> Then, when Constanza plays Form of Mist to continue, Greta wakes and >> deflects the bleed by Constanza (who also has Y Draughts of the Soul >> and a Tier of Souls) to Methuselah C (-Y for the DoS and -1 for the >> ToS and -1 for Sir Ralph) who has 12 pool (-3 for the Foreshadowing) >> and no Ventrue (-2). >> >> So Greta reduces the bleed by -(18+X+Y). > Scott, you have too much time on your hands. > I applaud you for this one, though! Just to finish off his math.. in a 90 card deck (although why we would talk "legal deck" here, I'm not sure ;) ), Greta would be able to reduce the bleed by a maximum of 93 (18 + 75). The bleeder's library: 2 Auspex Masters 2 Quietus Masters 2 Protean Masters 2 Animalism Masters 1 Clan Impersonation 1 Writ of Acceptance 1 Foreshadowing Destruction 1 JS Simmons 1 Tasha Morgan 1 Laptop 1 Tier of Souls X Priestesses of Sekhmet Y Draughts of the Soul where X+Y = 75 The defender's library doesn't matter that much, since there are fewer than 90 relevant cards, but it needs to have at least these: 2 Chimerstry Masters 1 Serpentis Master 2 Animalism Masters 1 Thaumaturgy Master 1 Dominate Master 3 more miscellaneous Master Disciplines, to get Greta older than the now 16-cap (!) Constanza. 1 Wake 1 Deflect 1 Canine Horde 1 Weather Control OK, done with this now :) But is my math correct?

Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote: >Just to finish off his math.. >in a 90 card deck (although why we would talk "legal deck" here, I'm >not sure ;) ), Greta would be able to reduce the bleed by a maximum of >93 (18 + 75). > >The bleeder's library: >2 Auspex Masters >2 Quietus Masters >2 Protean Masters >2 Animalism Masters >1 Clan Impersonation >1 Writ of Acceptance >1 Foreshadowing Destruction >1 JS Simmons >1 Tasha Morgan >1 Laptop >1 Tier of Souls >X Priestesses of Sekhmet >Y Draughts of the Soul > where X+Y = 75 Don't forget to have Constanza's controller bring out Agaitas so that she can draw a few more Priestesses from her prey's library (and a few table-rearranging votes to siphon off everyone's library in turn) before the bleed gets going... :-) >The defender's library doesn't matter that much, since there are fewer >than 90 relevant cards, but it needs to have at least these: >2 Chimerstry Masters >1 Serpentis Master >2 Animalism Masters >1 Thaumaturgy Master >1 Dominate Master >3 more miscellaneous Master Disciplines, to get Greta older than the now > 16-cap (!) Constanza. >1 Wake >1 Deflect >1 Canine Horde >1 Weather Control > >OK, done with this now :) >But is my math correct? > -- [ quoted text not captured ]

"Tobias" <tobiasop...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:8aa6db00.02082...@posting.google.com... > 90 card deck: > - Clan Impersonation (Baali) > - Inveraray (+3, fully charged) > - Legendary Vampire (+2) > - 87 D'habi Revenants (+87) > - Spiridonas ability, fully charged (cap 11, +9) > > Total: 1 + 3 + 2 + 87 + 9 = 102 I'm not going to go into the math, but I think you might be better off with some master skill cards, Pulse (adds +2 to his capacity as well), Legendary Vampire, and a whole heap of previously-played Spying Missions (and another +2 to his capacity). :) Xian

This is getting ridiculous, but I'm getting carried away with the exercise. Feel free to skip it :) [ quoted text not captured ] > :-) A wily one, that LSJ... So, then, assume a 5 player table. Add in 3 Kindred Restructures to the above deck, remove the Aus and Quietus Masters, and make all the (now 76) "X+Y"s into Priestesses of Sekhmet. Draught is less efficient for this case. Other than the Constanza deck and the Greta deck, there are 3 other decks at the table which consist of nothing but 90 Priestesses of Sekhmet. (Are we getting silly yet?!) The initial prey-predator relationship doesn't have Greta as Constanza's prey. After Constanza and Agaitas are both in play, Constanza equips Priestesses until her prey's library is exhausted. Calls a Kindred Restructure, moves on to the next guy, and does the same thing. Another Kindred Restructure, and she's drained 270 Priestesses from 3 players who all refuse to attempt to Withdraw. (270 turns later, of course). Another Kindred Restructure, and Greta's controller is now Constanza's controller's prey. By this time, Greta's equipped with everything she needs, and has a perfect hand of 7 cards (deliberately keeping some cards in hand so that the deck is pure Priestess). Her deck now needs 4 fewer masters to be older than Constanza, but still can only get rid of 3 of them because of the combos. So her deck is: 2 Chimerstry Masters 1 Serpentis Master 2 Animalism Masters 1 Thaumaturgy Master 1 Dominate Master 1 Wake 1 Deflect 1 Canine Horde 1 Weather Control and 79 Priestesses of Sekhmet, which are all that is left in the library. By this time, Constanza's Methuselah has only played about 6 cards out of her own deck. 3 of her own cards to get the ball rolling on the pillaging of the Priestesses of Sekhmet with each prey, and 3 Restructures. So she has plenty of cards left to replace with the 79 Priestesses of Sekhmet from Greta's controller's deck. So, over 500 turns later (Connie has to hunt occasionally), the bleed is now reduced by Greta by 18+90+90+90+76+79 = a Grand Total of an effective 443 point bleed reduction by one minion in one action. Heheheheheheh. Beat that! :) :)

"Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message news:kTq99.217252$UU1.37347@sccrnsc03... > After Constanza and Agaitas are both in play, Constanza equips Priestesses > until her prey's library is exhausted. > Calls a Kindred Restructure, moves on to the next guy, and does the same > thing. > Another Kindred Restructure, and she's drained 270 Priestesses from 3 players > who all refuse to attempt to Withdraw. (270 turns later, of course). Ah, but sadly she can only pillage 83 Priestesses from each player... they all have to draw opening hands of 7 cards, you know. :-) I don't know why I felt the need to point that out. Josh not really sure it's a sensible definition of "greta reducing the bleed" to count the decrease from constanza's being bounced to a non-eligible methuselah, either...

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >"Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message >news:kTq99.217252$UU1.37347@sccrnsc03... > >> After Constanza and Agaitas are both in play, Constanza equips Priestesses >> until her prey's library is exhausted. >> Calls a Kindred Restructure, moves on to the next guy, and does the same >> thing. >> Another Kindred Restructure, and she's drained 270 Priestesses from 3 >players >> who all refuse to attempt to Withdraw. (270 turns later, of course). > >Ah, but sadly she can only pillage 83 Priestesses from each player... >they all have to draw opening hands of 7 cards, you know. :-) > >I don't know why I felt the need to point that out. Could grab those with Darius and move them to Constanza with Heidelberg. Replace the Laptop and the Canine Horde with another Priestess and the Castle to maintain the count. Of course "A vampire may have only one Priestess of Sekhmet", so (oops), so those should all be switched to D'habi Revenants. That'll lose a 1-point reduction for Sir Ralph. Make that up by having the final target of the bleed control Matthias. > >Josh > >not really sure it's a sensible definition of "greta reducing the >bleed" to count the decrease from constanza's being bounced to a >non-eligible methuselah, either... So to whom would you attribute the reduction in that case, then? [ quoted text not captured ]

>>Ah, but sadly she can only pillage 83 Priestesses from each player... >>they all have to draw opening hands of 7 cards, you know. :-) >> >>I don't know why I felt the need to point that out. > Of course "A vampire may have only one Priestess of Sekhmet", so > (oops), so those should all be switched to D'habi Revenants. Oops.. yeah, I figured that when it got to this level of silliness, there would be a few simple things that got overlooked. :) Of course, I still think "8", from my original respose, is the best sensible (and possible in play) answer... :)

"L. Scott Johnson" <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote in message news:ak5f42$1fsmfg$1...@ID-99714.news.dfncis.de... > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >Ah, but sadly she can only pillage 83 Priestesses from each player... > >they all have to draw opening hands of 7 cards, you know. :-) > > > >I don't know why I felt the need to point that out. > > Could grab those with Darius and move them to Constanza with > Heidelberg. Replace the Laptop and the Canine Horde with another > Priestess and the Castle to maintain the count. > > Of course "A vampire may have only one Priestess of Sekhmet", so > (oops), so those should all be switched to D'habi Revenants. Doh! :-) How does the bleed get reduced, then? D'habi Revenant doesn't care who you're bleeding, right? > >not really sure it's a sensible definition of "greta reducing the > >bleed" to count the decrease from constanza's being bounced to a > >non-eligible methuselah, either... > > So to whom would you attribute the reduction in that case, then? The game rules. :-) Like if a vampire is in combat, and the opposing Methuselah has a Temptation on that vampire that she uses to take control of the vampire, ending combat, which vampire ended the combat? It feels to me like neither of them did; the change in game state caused the combat to end. Josh reduced to absurdity

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >"L. Scott Johnson" <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote in message >news:ak5f42$1fsmfg$1...@ID-99714.news.dfncis.de... >> "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> >Ah, but sadly she can only pillage 83 Priestesses from each player... >> >they all have to draw opening hands of 7 cards, you know. :-) >> > >> >I don't know why I felt the need to point that out. >> >> Could grab those with Darius and move them to Constanza with >> Heidelberg. Replace the Laptop and the Canine Horde with another >> Priestess and the Castle to maintain the count. >> >> Of course "A vampire may have only one Priestess of Sekhmet", so >> (oops), so those should all be switched to D'habi Revenants. > >Doh! :-) > >How does the bleed get reduced, then? D'habi Revenant doesn't >care who you're bleeding, right? They die from the Weather Control. >> >not really sure it's a sensible definition of "greta reducing the >> >bleed" to count the decrease from constanza's being bounced to a >> >non-eligible methuselah, either... >> >> So to whom would you attribute the reduction in that case, then? > >The game rules. :-) > >Like if a vampire is in combat, and the opposing Methuselah has a >Temptation on that vampire that she uses to take control of the >vampire, ending combat, which vampire ended the combat? It feels >to me like neither of them did; the change in game state caused >the combat to end. Different case, since neither of the vampires in question played (nor used) the temptation. In the example at hand, Greta played the Deflection (and the Weather Control). [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002, Joshua Duffin wrote: > "L. Scott Johnson" <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote in message > news:ak5f42$1fsmfg$1...@ID-99714.news.dfncis.de... > > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Of course "A vampire may have only one Priestess of Sekhmet", so > > (oops), so those should all be switched to D'habi Revenants. > > Doh! :-) > > How does the bleed get reduced, then? D'habi Revenant doesn't > care who you're bleeding, right? Weather Control? Does it reduce the bleed if all those revenants are killed before Constanza ends combat and continues the action? -Matt

"Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@eris.io.com> wrote in message news:Pine.LNX.4.44.02082...@eris.io.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Yup, that's how it worked. I still think it doesn't seem like "bleed reduction" for the bleed amount to be decreased by the fact that a zillion bleed retainers have died during the action, personally. But I guess that's just me. :-) (If an effect isn't specifically a "reduce a bleed" effect, I wouldn't have considered it relevant. Archon Investigation, for example, would "reduce" any huge bleed to 0 by burning the vampire that was trying to bleed, but it wouldn't have fit my assumptions about the puzzle.) Josh controlled by the weather satellites

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: >I still think it doesn't seem like "bleed reduction" for the bleed >amount to be decreased by the fact that a zillion bleed retainers >have died during the action, personally. But I guess that's just >me. :-) (If an effect isn't specifically a "reduce a bleed" >effect, I wouldn't have considered it relevant. Archon Investigation, >for example, would "reduce" any huge bleed to 0 by burning the >vampire that was trying to bleed, but it wouldn't have fit my >assumptions about the puzzle.) After the AI, there is no bleed at all, as opposed to a reduced bleed. AI doesn't reduce the bleed. Likewise, blocking the bleed doesn't reduce the bleed, even though no pool will be lost. If a bleed of 400 becomes a bleed of 1, then that bleed has been reduced by 399, by the standard usage of "reduce". [ quoted text not captured ]

"L. Scott Johnson" <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote in message news:ak5rsj$1g6krp$1...@ID-99714.news.dfncis.de... > After the AI, there is no bleed at all, as opposed to a reduced > bleed. AI doesn't reduce the bleed. Likewise, blocking the > bleed doesn't reduce the bleed, even though no pool will be > lost. > > If a bleed of 400 becomes a bleed of 1, then that bleed has been > reduced by 399, by the standard usage of "reduce". The standard usage of "reduce" is very much in the eye of the beholder, of course. :-) I think it's the nonstandardness of the bleed reduction method in this case that makes it feel "out of bounds" to me. It's still funny, yeah - it's just not normal "bleed reduction" in my mind. Josh unnormalized

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >"L. Scott Johnson" <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote in message >news:ak5rsj$1g6krp$1...@ID-99714.news.dfncis.de... > >> After the AI, there is no bleed at all, as opposed to a reduced >> bleed. AI doesn't reduce the bleed. Likewise, blocking the >> bleed doesn't reduce the bleed, even though no pool will be >> lost. >> >> If a bleed of 400 becomes a bleed of 1, then that bleed has been >> reduced by 399, by the standard usage of "reduce". > >The standard usage of "reduce" is very much in the eye of the >beholder, of course. :-) ? "standard" implies otherwise. >I think it's the nonstandardness of the bleed reduction method >in this case that makes it feel "out of bounds" to me. It's still >funny, yeah - it's just not normal "bleed reduction" in my mind. If the bleed had been 27 and is now 13, how much has the bleed been reduced? [ quoted text not captured ]

"L. Scott Johnson" <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote in message news:ak5thu$1fal0v$1...@ID-99714.news.dfncis.de... > "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >The standard usage of "reduce" is very much in the eye of the > >beholder, of course. :-) > > ? > "standard" implies otherwise. As you've noticed with other game-related terms, English words tend to be multivalent and ambiguous in meaning... as such, the applicability of any particular usage of "reduce" is rather subjective. :-) > >I think it's the nonstandardness of the bleed reduction method > >in this case that makes it feel "out of bounds" to me. It's still > >funny, yeah - it's just not normal "bleed reduction" in my mind. > > If the bleed had been 27 and is now 13, how much has the bleed > been reduced? By 14. But if that's accomplished by block, Weather Control, Form of Mist superior, it's not very "normal", is it? Josh atypical

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >"L. Scott Johnson" <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote in message >news:ak5thu$1fal0v$1...@ID-99714.news.dfncis.de... >> "Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> >The standard usage of "reduce" is very much in the eye of the >> >beholder, of course. :-) >> >> ? >> "standard" implies otherwise. > >As you've noticed with other game-related terms, English words >tend to be multivalent and ambiguous in meaning... as such, >the applicability of any particular usage of "reduce" is >rather subjective. :-) I think/hope you're just being obtuse. The "standard" usage is independent of any one user's perspective. Going back a bit past that point and into the idea that perhaps there are some words in VTES that are used in context other than what standard usage would suggest in that same context, then you might have a point for some other word. But not for reduce, IMO. Please provide any example of what "reduce" would/could mean in the context in which it was used in the statement of the puzzle if it doesn't mean the standard meaning if you wish to continue to contend otherwise. >> >I think it's the nonstandardness of the bleed reduction method >> >in this case that makes it feel "out of bounds" to me. It's still >> >funny, yeah - it's just not normal "bleed reduction" in my mind. >> >> If the bleed had been 27 and is now 13, how much has the bleed >> been reduced? > >By 14. But if that's accomplished by block, Weather Control, Form >of Mist superior, it's not very "normal", is it? "normal reduction" has never been part of the puzzle. Indeed, it has already been stated several times that this whole contrived example is far from normal (being, well, contrived). That is, typically, in the nature of VTES puzzlers. [ quoted text not captured ]

"L. Scott Johnson" <sjoh...@math.sc.edu> wrote in message news:ak62g7$1g953k$1...@ID-99714.news.dfncis.de... > Please provide any example of what "reduce" would/could mean in the > context in which it was used in the statement of the puzzle if it > doesn't mean the standard meaning if you wish to continue to contend > otherwise. Reduce: 1 b (1) : to diminish in size, amount, extent, or number <reduce taxes> <reduce the likelihood of war>. The standard usage of "reduce" in this context doesn't - in my mind - take into account any of the specific VTES technical details that - to your mind - invalidate things like Archon Investigation. A bleed exists for 400. It no longer exists after AI. Was that bleed of 400 reduced? From one point of view no; from another, in a sense it was. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse that was dead before I even got involved in the topic. Can I stop now? ;-) > >By 14. But if that's accomplished by block, Weather Control, Form > >of Mist superior, it's not very "normal", is it? > > "normal reduction" has never been part of the puzzle. > Indeed, it has already been stated several times that this whole > contrived example is far from normal (being, well, contrived). > > That is, typically, in the nature of VTES puzzlers. Sheesh. I'm not saying you're not "right". I'm saying that given the existence of the term "reduce a bleed" it seems not-in-the- spirit *to me* to count killings of bleed retainers midway through the action. Obviously it's contrived - even using Greta Kircher and Telepathic Counter and Folderol and Ignis Fatuus would be contrived - but this version is constructed in a manner that doesn't appeal to me. That's all there is to it. Honestly. :-) Josh defatigable

>> Of course "A vampire may have only one Priestess of Sekhmet", so >> (oops), so those should all be switched to D'habi Revenants. > >Oops.. yeah, I figured that when it got to this level of silliness, >there would be a few simple things that got overlooked. :) > >Of course, I still think "8", from my original respose, is the best >sensible (and possible in play) answer... :) > I don't know. I vote for LSJ's answer! Halcyan 2 LSJ for President!

Xian wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] No math here, neither, but if you ask your four fellow players to include an absurd amount of discipline-cards for you to steal with Dauntain Black Magician in combination with Spiridonas and a fellow Malk-Anti you ought to be able to top the above numbers by far. Sten During

Sten During <ya...@netg.se> wrote in message news:<3D69E4C6...@netg.se>... [ quoted text not captured ] couldn't you just get your fellow conspirators to play the disc cards directly on spiridonas? salem.

salem wrote: >>> >>No math here, neither, but if you ask your four fellow players to >>include an absurd amount of discipline-cards for you to steal with >>Dauntain Black Magician in combination with Spiridonas and a fellow >>Malk-Anti you ought to be able to top the above numbers by far. >> > > couldn't you just get your fellow conspirators to play the disc cards > directly on spiridonas? > > salem. > But, but, that would so OBVIOUSLY be collusion :) Sten During

[ quoted text not captured ] Not worth it. There are 'only' 27 different disciplines, so the maximum capacity increase any vampire can get from discipline cards is 54 (if he had no disciplines at all to begin with). Flux

>Not worth it. There are 'only' 27 different disciplines, so the maximum >capacity increase any vampire can get from discipline cards is 54 (if he >had no disciplines at all to begin with). Which is why you gotta rely on those Camarilla Vitae Slaves, a Succubus Club, and maybe a Heidelburg. Halcyan 2