rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Wallpaper vamp.

21 messages from 12 participants · 22 August 1996 – 03 September 1996
original thread on Google Groups

tb...@lainet.com

You guys sure blew it with Nakova. What can you do with a 6 blood Ventrue primogen with superior fortitude and potence. Her special power seems good until you think about it. What fool is going to burn her if he can't easily handle the damage. This has to be the worst wallpaper vamp in the game. I have been trying to think of a productive use for her since AH came out. She doesn't fit well in most combat decks. You could use her, but there are always better options. She sucks in vote decks. Who wants to spend 6 blood on a primogen when Rake is only 6 and you can get many other princes for 7 pool. She is absolutely worthless in a bleed deck. A Ventrue with no presence or dominate! Please tell me this card is a misprint. Even if Nakova isn't a misprint please errata this card. Give her presence or dominate, or if you want her to be a combat Ventrue at least give her superior potence or maybe celerity. The artwork on this card is so good it is a shame to regulate it to wallpaper statis. Even if it does make beautiful wallpaper. Steve -don't call me Tom- Bucy P.S. If anyone is using Nakova as is, please tell me what you use her for. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News: http://www.dejanews.com/ [Search, Post, and Read Usenet News!]

ЯЯЯЯ

tb...@lainet.com wrote: >You guys sure blew it with Nakova. > >What can you do with a 6 blood Ventrue primogen with >superior fortitude and potence. Her special power seems >good until you think about it. What fool is going to burn her if >he can't easily handle the damage. This has to be the worst >wallpaper vamp in the game. > When she first came out, I posted on the newsgroup asking if she was mis-printed, because I couldn't believe how bad she was either... --Eric

L. Scott Johnson

tb...@lainet.com writes: >P.S. If anyone is using Nakova as is, please tell me what you >use her for. Equip her with a bomb and keep a Dawn Operation in your hand. And keep her blood capacity below 5. She thus becomes unblockable unless someone wants to have one of their minions take *9* aggravated damage (four of which is unpreventable) (barring S:CE, of course). -- L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | A one-bit brain with a http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | parity error. Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

Nathan Harada

> tb...@lainet.com wrote: > > You guys sure blew it with Nakova. > > What can you do with a 6 blood Ventrue primogen with > superior fortitude and potence. Her special power seems > good until you think about it. What fool is going to burn her if > he can't easily handle the damage. This has to be the worst > wallpaper vamp in the game. > > I have been trying to think of a productive use for her since > AH came out. She doesn't fit well in most combat decks. You > could use her, but there are always better options. She sucks > in vote decks. Who wants to spend 6 blood on a primogen > when Rake is only 6 and you can get many other princes for 7 > pool. She is absolutely worthless in a bleed deck. A Ventrue > with no presence or dominate! Please tell me this card is a > misprint. > > Even if Nakova isn't a misprint please errata this card. Give > her presence or dominate, or if you want her to be a combat > Ventrue at least give her superior potence or maybe celerity. > > The artwork on this card is so good it is a shame to regulate > it to wallpaper statis. Even if it does make beautiful > wallpaper. > P.S. If anyone is using Nakova as is, please tell me what you > use her for. Okay. I made a For-Dom-Pot combat deck using mainly Ventrue, utilizing some of the least seen vampires in Jyhad. Ventrue combat? It usually worked, too. Crypt: Helena Casimir 9 Dom Pot for, Primogen +1 bleed. Marty Lechtansi 9 Dom Pot for, Primogen may pay 1 blood for a press. Roxanne, Rectrix 9 Dom For pot, Primogen may attack 3 and under as a +1 stealth D action. Emerson Bridges 8 Dom For pot, Prince. Sir Walter Nash 7 Dom For, Prince. Nakova 6 For pot, when she burns in combat, deals four non-preventable damage to the opposing vampire. Zack North 6 for pot, +1 hand damage. Lucia Pacciola 6 Dom for, +1 hand damage. Vittorio Giovanni 5 dom for pot. Lazar Dobrescu 3 for, may take 1 blood off an uncontrolled vampire of your prey as a D action. Rufina Soledad 2 for. Smudge 1 (Substitute Uriah Winter if you're bleeding well). (Uriah Winter 1 pot for, passes to the person with the most pool during untap.) Basically, the object with Nakova was to burn her by convincing someone else to block her action, then Dawn Operation the combat. Typically, an Immortal Grapple was added, as well as hand damage boosts before that, calculated to take Nakova down to no blood while dealing as much damage as possible. When the final hand strike that burns Nakova takes place, the opposing minion takes 4 unpreventable aggravated damage. I trade my burned Nakova for one of your vampires burned. -Nathan Harada Still working on a deck using Julius.

PDB6

Aw, c'mon. Nakova isn't that bad. She is only 1 point short of what she should be (3 in skills, 1 in title, 1 in special. See the recent posts about "the point cost system" of vampires), and as she has such a damn cool picture, who cares? As pointed out in a post above, she is one of the only smallish vampires to have Pot and For, and thus is easily a staple in a Pot/For combat deck (one that I have considered making since she came out...). She is a cheap Primogen, which is always a good thing, and her special, while certainly not worth the 2 points it seems to cost her, is an ok special that may give her a defensive edge in combat, as that is what she seems best for. They could have made her a 5 point vamp, but then she couldn't have been a Primogen (as there are no 5 point Primogens...), or they could have given her an extra skill (like Dom), but hey, I'm willing to pay the extra point to have her cool picture in my crypt. Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "This is no place for an Entomologist." -Dana Scully

Chris Rhodes

I made a Golconda/Peace deck using her... I use Golconda Inner Peace on my own Vampires. Redeem the Lost Soul, Autarkis Persecution, Consanginous Boon (called for other peoples vampires), The Deadliest Sin, Catacombs, Huminatas. I chose vampires for the impressions I get from the card and from the text on some (like Nakova). It's been pretty fun to play (you should see peoples faces when you call a C. Boon in their favor...). I rescue other peoples vampires from torpor. I also use 6th Tradition to burn people that get through a Diablerie attempt... Chris rho...@medicine.wustl.edu

Alec Chang

In article <4vnuas$9...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, pd...@aol.com says... > >Aw, c'mon. Nakova isn't that bad. She is only 1 point short of what she >should be (3 in skills, 1 in title, 1 in special. See the recent posts >about "the point cost system" of vampires), and as she has such a damn >cool picture, who cares? Let's look at this breakdown. 3 in skills, 1/2(or nothing, even) in titles, because she's Ventrue, and Primogen is almost always backed up by a special ability, no matter how weak or pathetic. Her special could at most be one point. And beyond a really warped ventrue combat deck or a gangrel/Nosfer deck, who's going to use her? >As pointed out in a post above, she is one of the only smallish vampires >to have Pot and For, and thus is easily a staple in a Pot/For combat deck >(one that I have considered making since she came out...). She is a cheap >Primogen, which is always a good thing, and her special, while certainly >not worth the 2 points it seems to cost her, is an ok special that may >give her a defensive edge in combat, as that is what she seems best for. Defensive edge in combat? The only way that I can see it being defensive is if the person you're playing is ALWAYS burning vamps via aggravated damage as his/her last strike. Maybe Amaranth protection too, but I'm not even sure about that. Otherwise, her special is mainly used offensively(Dawn ops, burn all of her blood through a Death of my Conscience, Burning Wrath, whatever you can spend blood on, and don't prevent the damage). Tends to burn the opposing vampire that way. But still, Really REALLY hard to use. >They could have made her a 5 point vamp, but then she couldn't have been a >Primogen (as there are no 5 point Primogens...), or they could have given There's nothing stopping them from making 5 pt. Primogen. They're still making Ian, after all... >her an extra skill (like Dom), but hey, I'm willing to pay the extra point >to have her cool picture in my crypt. It's not that cool when it could make you lose, I'm afraid. Alec Chang

tb...@lainet.com

In article <321EAE...@anon.penet.fi> <4vnuas$9...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <500jm9$r...@mochi.lava.net>, [ quoted text not captured ] Excellent Alec, I could not have said it better. My exact opinion. Steve -don't call me Tom- Bucy [ quoted text not captured ]

apdi1

[ quoted text not captured ] Have you ever won with this deck? Sorrow

PDB6

Alec Chang wrote: "There's nothing stopping them from making 5 pt. Primogen. They're still making Ian, after all..." Well, I can keep hoping. Alec Chang also wrote: "It's not that cool when it could make you lose, I'm afraid." I fail to see how using a vamp like this can "make you lose", if she is in a deck designed to use her. Granted, Nakova will add little to most decks (except some class), but in the right decks, she is perfect. Many, crypts are designed to use 2 disciplines, and if the two you plan to use are Fortitude and Potence, she fits that bill just fine, and is a Primogen to boot. Of the various vampires that I can think of off hand that have superior Fortitude and regular Potence, there are: Nakova (6) Badger (6) Emmerson Bridges (8) Natasha Volvcheck (9) Roxanne (9) Wyn/Basillia (10) If one were to want to build a deck that was a Pot/For combat deck, the list of worthwile vampires is slim (and expensive), and in that context, you could use either 2 Badgers or a Badger and a Nakova. Or two of each for that matter. For these purposes, Nakova is also pretty much better than Natasha, for instance, as she has the same effective abilities, but only costs 6. There are many vampires you could pick apart for various reasons for being useless, but every vamp will fit in some deck somewhere, even if it takes some imagination (which seems to be sorely lacking in this thread...). [ quoted text not captured ]

Chris Rhodes

sor...@tvs.cais.com (apdi1) writes: [ quoted text not captured ] >Sorrow I have never finished a game with this deck. Usually the games go on forever...I'm constantly gaining/giving blood, so usually people are really loaded. I use Golconda on my vampires, after Minion Tapping them and then use Redeem the Lost Soul. I once gained 22 (or there abouts) from Sheldon, Lord of the Clog. The Autarkis Persecutions and C. Boons usually keep everyone pretty full. Also, almost no vampires ever get diablerized, so most people keep all the vamps that they get out... It's really fun. Chris

tb...@lainet.com

In article <500jm9$r...@mochi.lava.net> <502ukt$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] I have already thought of all the ideas in this thread (with the exception of the dawn op and bomb), but none of them seem like winners to me. I my group a For/Pot combat deck (even with dawn op) would get its but kicked almost every game. I don't like playing losing decks. It is true Nakova is great for a For/Pot combat deck, but who wants to make a deck like this. IMHO that would be a boring, unimaginative, and losing deck. [ quoted text not captured ]

Alec Chang

In article <502ukt$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, pd...@aol.com says... > >Alec Chang wrote: >"There's nothing stopping them from making 5 pt. Primogen. They're still >making Ian, after all..." > >Well, I can keep hoping. > >Alec Chang also wrote: >"It's not that cool when it could make you lose, I'm afraid." > >I fail to see how using a vamp like this can "make you lose", if she is in Basically, what I meant was that unless you are placing her in a deck practically designed around her, you're paying extra pool for a primogen with too few points in disciplines. The extra pool in longer games does tend to make a great deal of difference. >a deck designed to use her. Granted, Nakova will add little to most decks >(except some class), but in the right decks, she is perfect. Many, crypts >are designed to use 2 disciplines, and if the two you plan to use are >Fortitude and Potence, she fits that bill just fine, and is a Primogen to >boot. Of the various vampires that I can think of off hand that have >superior Fortitude and regular Potence, there are: > >Nakova (6) >Badger (6) >Emmerson Bridges (8) >Natasha Volvcheck (9) >Roxanne (9) >Wyn/Basillia (10) Maybe it's just me, but if you're making that kind of deck, you could use other disciplines beyond fortitude and potence to make it more flexible and viable. Just those two wouldn't strike me as being very interesting... Protean being added in would make the deck somewhat more flexible, while making Nakova less useful. And making Badger, Wynn, or Basillia that much more useful. >If one were to want to build a deck that was a Pot/For combat deck, the >list of worthwile vampires is slim (and expensive), and in that context, >you could use either 2 Badgers or a Badger and a Nakova. Or two of each >for that matter. For these purposes, Nakova is also pretty much better >than Natasha, for instance, as she has the same effective abilities, but >only costs 6. Natasha's got +1 bleed. Makes a difference. I'd probably end up using Helena Casimir or Marty Lechtansi in that deck anyway, while integrating something else, in like I said above. Just Fortitude and Potence would lead to a deck without much flexibility(And which would get totally hosed by Thoughts Betrayed combat trump decks...). >There are many vampires you could pick apart for various reasons for being >useless, but every vamp will fit in some deck somewhere, even if it takes >some imagination (which seems to be sorely lacking in this thread...). > Oh, I've used her. I've used just about everyone(save Dr. Jest, who's special ability costs him far too much for just breaking your opponent's hand jam for him...and only if he's untapped, too). It's not creativity which is at issue here, though. It's the general utility and power of a vampire compared to a) cost, and b) the amount of contrivance you need to got through to make a deck using the vampire. Nakova takes quite a bit. The same goes for Elizabetto Romano, and most of the other 6 capacities from AH. And is anyone playing with Uriah winter for any other reason that having another tiny caitiff? He's the worst card I've ever seen... (Oh, BTW, I found a use for Julius. It takes more tastes of death than I can field, though. And the deck that uses him is Quietus/Necromancy/Serpentis. I don't know how it manages to survive three rounds in a real game. Talk about contrived....) Alec Chang

tb...@lainet.com

In article <500jm9$r...@mochi.lava.net> <502ukt$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, pd...@aol.com (PDB6) wrote: > I fail so see how using a vamp like this can "make you lose" if she is > in a deck designed to use her. Granted, Nakova will add little to most > decks (except some class), but in the right decks, she is perfect. (snip) I beg to differ. She isn't even perfect in a For/Pot combat deck. To be perfect for this she should have superior potence. > Of the various vampires that I can think of off hand that have > superior Fortitude and regular Potence, there are: (snip) Why would one ever look for inferior potence? > If one were to want to build a deck that was a Pot/For combat deck, > the list of worthwhile vampires is slim (and expensive), (snip) To the contrary the list is quite long, and though most are expensive, it is not near as bad as you think: Vittorio Giovanni (5) Badger, Zack North, Nakova (6) Chester Dubois, Nikolas Vermullian (7) Emmerson Bridges, Faruq (8) Natasha Volvcheck, Helena Casimir, Shuhaila, Roxanne, Crusher, Katarina, Marty Lectansi, Sheldon Lord of the Clog (9) Appolonius, Regina, Wyn, Basillia, Lucretia (10) Gwendolyn (11) Most of these are far more useful than Nakova. Many have Superior potence instead of fortitude. Vittorio has pot/for/dom and costs only five. Helena has Pot/for/Dom and +1 bleed. Zack North gets pot/for and +1 hand damage. Nikolas has Pot/for and is a prince. These four are all better in a For/Pot combat deck than Nakova. If I built a Pot/For deck I probably would leave her out for those with Superior Pot. Of course you could throw Nakova in to finish out the crypt I guess... Of these selections Nakova, without even a third skill, is the most limited. She really only fits in a For/Pot combat, bruise/vote, or unusual theme deck and she isn't really perfect in any of them (except the theme deck I guess). As I have said before Nakova, IMO, is missing something. She needs another skill (dominate, presence, celerity), superior potence, +1 bleed, or maybe she should have been a prince. Without one of these fixes She is limited to For/Pot or political decks and she far from perfect even in these. [ quoted text not captured ]

Bernard M. Bresnahan

The Best thing I can think of using Uriah Winter for is to Put him into play with FAME then put Out Millicent Smith (not necessarily in that order).

Judith Cookson Grunberger

pot/for vamps: >Vittorio Giovanni (5) >Badger, Zack North, Nakova (6) >Chester Dubois, Nikolas Vermullian (7) >Emmerson Bridges, Faruq (8) >Natasha Volvcheck, Helena Casimir, Shuhaila, Roxanne, Crusher, >Katarina, Marty Lectansi, Sheldon Lord of the Clog (9) >Appolonius, Regina, Wyn, Basillia, Lucretia (10) >Gwendolyn (11) you forgot: Uriah (1) Vaclav Petelengro (6) Terza Rostas, Selma (8) Crusher, Angus, Ulugh Beg, Regina Giovanni (10) Wheee, that was fun. Not that any of them are stunningly useful, but still. Judy -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> "You guys aren't drunk. You're just stupid." - Beavis & Butt-Head <> <> jcoo...@eng.umd.edu * http://www.glue.umd.edu/~jcookson <> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Chris Barnhart [Mr. Pynk]

> The Best thing I can think of using Uriah Winter for is to Put him into > play with FAME then put Out Millicent Smith (not necessarily in that > order). Remember that Fame only causes your prey to loose blood if that vamp goes to torpor. Ms. Smith *burns* vampires. Mr. Pynk --- http://www.wulaw.wustl.edu/~tvbarnha/mr_pynk/

Gomi no Sensei

In article <5067bh$j...@mochi.lava.net>, Alec Chang <te...@lava.net> wrote: >In article <502ukt$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, pd...@aol.com says... [pdb6 mentions pot/for decks in re: Nakova's usefulness] >Maybe it's just me, but if you're making that kind of deck, you could use other >disciplines beyond fortitude and potence to make it more flexible and viable. Hrmph. The fewer disciplines you use, the more reliable your combos are, however. A monodisciplinary Fortitude Rush deck (with Nakova, mind you) has been doing quite well recently (it contains some Tremere insurance, since they're the clan with the best anti-fortitude cards). >Just those two wouldn't strike me as being very interesting... Protean being >added in would make the deck somewhat more flexible, while making Nakova less >useful. And making Badger, Wynn, or Basillia that much more useful. Very simple combat. Poke hard, avoid getting poked back. Fortitude provides maneuvers and presses, even. >>For these purposes, Nakova is also pretty much better >>than Natasha, for instance, as she has the same effective abilities, but >>only costs 6. >Natasha's got +1 bleed. Makes a difference. You'd pay 3 more pool for +1 bleed in a combat deck? Can we play for money? >Just Fortitude and Potence would lead to a deck >without much flexibility(And which would get totally hosed by Thoughts Betrayed >combat trump decks...). Kiss of Ra hoses Thoughts Betrayed -- Dom/For isn't played often (usually seen in Fortitude Tremere, an uncommon although not unheard-of variant). Come to think of it, KoR/TB do point pretty clearly to escalation in the cardset. Kind of sad. Ugly trump card gets printed, another uglier trump card made in response (well, not directly, but it does have that effect -- KoR is a lot closer to balanced, although I mistrust automatic go-to-torpor effects that bypass combat). cheers, gomi -- 'spend a day and a half dead and the lettuce runs amok.' -babs woods

PDB6

Steve Bucy wrote: "Why would one ever look for inferior potence?" Because there is exactly one vampire in the game who has both superior Pot and superior For, and she is an Inner Circle member (Gwendolyn). There are zero vampires with superior Pot and inferor For under 7 capacity, and there are zero vampires with superior For and any Pot under 6 capacity. Thus, the available pool of vampires with both For and Pot, with one of them being superior is very small, and as Nakova has both needed disciplines, with one at superior, and only costs 6 as opposed to 9, she becomes the staple of a For/Pot combat deck. Yes, Marty, Selma, Helena, Roxxane, Gwnedolyn, ect. are all better vampires in general than Nakova, but vampires with a capacity of 9 or higher do not a crypt make. As I am unaware of the play style where you come from, I can not make defenitve statements, but where I come from, having a crypt of nothing but 8 and higher point vampires is refered to as the famous "Steve Wampler Deck" that gets out 3 vampires, and then is bled for one and ousted. One cannot make a working crypt of nothing but huge vampires. It just does not work. One certainly can not make a reliable Rush Combat deck that uses all huge vampires. Nakova is a very good vampire to include in a Pot/For Rush combat deck, and in fact is the staple of such a deck, along with Badger, Zack North, and Vittorio. As to a two discipline deck being "Boring/Unworkable", that is the most absurd thing I have heard in quite some time. Good (i.e. reliable and effective) combat decks are inherently very combo intensive, and as a result, the fewer variables in the deck, the better it is. To make a good Rush Combat Pot/For deck, you need to draw with fair consistiency all the combat cards that are useful and thus make the deck work. As it is a combat deck, it needs to excell at combat. To do this, it cannot be watered down with another angle, otherwise you will be drawing a Conditioning or a Raven Spy when you really want to be drawing an Immortal Grapple or a Fists of Death. If you really wanted to make a slow and innefective Rush Combat deck, please feel free to include a large porportion of non combat cards. If you wish to make an effective combat deck, I advise you to remain focused. Alec Cheng wrote: "(And which would get totally hosed by Thoughts Betrayed combat trump decks...)." In regards to combat decks vs. a deck that relies heavily upon Thoughts Betrayed to stop combat, such a deck will shut down ANY combat deck. Every deck has a foil (Deflection vs S+B, Intercept vs Vote, ect...), and this particular foil relies on TB, which is well regarded as a fairly broken card. Thoughts Betrayed trumps any combat deck out there, regardless of what it is based on, so how it will affect a Pot/For combat deck is fairly moot. If nothing else, a For/Pot combat deck can Rush the vamps with inferior Dom, and then Kiss of Ra anyone with superior Dom who blocks, but again, this is a moot point. If one is to design a combat deck with the possibility of having to oppose a deck that is brimming with Thoughts Betrayed, there is no reason to build a combat deck, but as such a deck is rare, there is no reason to worry about it. [ quoted text not captured ]

tb...@lainet.com

In article <8414176...@dejanews.com> <50cmon$1...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, pd...@aol.com (PDB6) wrote: > As to a two discipline deck being "Boring/Unworkable", that is the most > absurd thing I have heard in quite some time. Good (i.e. reliable and > effective) combat decks are inherently very combo intensive, and as a > result, the fewer variables in the deck, the better it is. To make a good > Rush Combat Pot/For deck, you need to draw with fair consistiency all the > combat cards that are useful and thus make the deck work. As it is a > combat deck, it needs to excell at combat. To do this, it cannot be > watered down with another angle, otherwise you will be drawing a > Conditioning or a Raven Spy when you really want to be drawing an Immortal > Grapple or a Fists of Death. If you really wanted to make a slow and > innefective Rush Combat deck, please feel free to include a large > porportion of non combat cards. If you wish to make an effective combat > deck, I advise you to remain focused. I never said a two discipline deck was unworkable. I did say they are usually boring and unimaginative. A two discipline deck is highly workable because of its simplicity. The Pot/For deck will function great, however without superior Pot will be quite weak. Nakova can bums rush someone play torn signpost, fists o death, immortal grapple, and strike with undead strength and only do 4 points of damage. Then you would have to play a press. That sucks. Chester Dubois or Nikolas V. (Nosferatsu 7 blood Pot/for) could do 7 and get a free press from immortal grapple. Now that's combat. Zack North for his 6 points at least gets +1 hand damage. Vittorio Giovani would be as effective as Nakova for 5 blood. Given a choice when filling out a crypt for a Pot/For deck Nakova would lose out to Vittorio, Zack, Chester, or Nikolas. The crypt I would make would probably look like: Gwedolyn (11) +2 bleed 2 Helena Casimir (9) +1 bleed Selma the Repugnant (8) 2 Nikolas V. (7) 2 Chester Dubois (7) 2 Zack North (6) +1 hand damage 2 Vittorio Giovani (5) Of course you could replace someone with Nakova but the main reason to do so would be the excellent art work. [ quoted text not captured ]

PDB6

Tom Bucy wrote: "Given a choice when filling out a crypt for a Pot/For deck Nakova would lose out to Vittorio, Zack, Chester, or Nikolas." That is an understadable statment given no context, but there has been a vast escalation of combat decks around here recently, and FOR has become exceptionally useful in the face of brutal Gangrel and/or Toreador Blurred Gun decks.I completely agree with you regarding Potence and combat, and given the choice, I would have all of my vamps have POT, but given the choice between 9 point vampires with POT and for and 6 point vamps with FOR and pot, I tended to go with the smaller ones, as while POT gives you the big crusher 7 point strikes, FOR gives you all the manuvers and the presses. It is all well and good to have a vamp with POT and a hand full of Immortal Grapples and Potence Hand damage cards, but if you cant get to close range to Immortally Grapple them, they are all useless. Actually, your hypothetical crypt is fairly close to the one I am actually using, but my crypt is built in the context of another often used and very strong Gangrel blood gain/intercept deck that I could never hope to win any contesting against: Gwendolyn (11) POT, FOR Selma (8) POT, for Chester (7) POT, for Nikolaus (7) POT, for 2x Nakova (6) FOR, pot Vaclav (6) pot, for Vittorio (5) pot, for Duck (3) pot Lazar (3) for KoKo (2) pot Lupo (2) pot Given another play enviornment (i.e. no well known powerful Gangrel deck to likely be played) Vaclav and Lazar would be replaced with Badger or Zack and Guilano. The little pot/for vamps are included for quick pot Bum Rushes (KoKo kills any other 2 or 3 point vamp in the game...) and for Blood Dolls who are cheap to get out, can kill things quickly, and then just feed me and hunt late in the game (or bleed in bulk when my preys vamps are all mangled). In this situation, Nakova is completely superior to Badger (Badger is (6) FOR, pot; Nakova is (6) FOR, pot, Primogen, silly ability), and marginally (IMO) superior to Zack. I still want to use Uriah Winter, but man, that is just askin for it. [ quoted text not captured ]