Q: DI, Rewind Time and Iron heart

Hi, Short Q: Do these 3 cards function in the same way? jeroen

jeroen rombouts wrote: > Short Q: Do these 3 cards function in the same way? 1) Include the whole message in the message. Don't depend on the subject line to start or finish the context. 2) They're all playable "when a <specific sort of> card is played", so they're the same that way. Are you thinking of something specific? -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3C73EA3E...@white-wolf.com... > jeroen rombouts wrote: > > Short Q: Do these 3 cards function in the same way? > > 1) Include the whole message in the message. Don't depend > on the subject line to start or finish the context. sorry. I was in a hurry. > > 2) They're all playable "when a <specific sort of> card is played", > so they're the same that way. Are you thinking of something > specific? > Direct Intervention Master: out-of-turn. Burn a minion card as it is played. That card has no effect, and any blood or pool cost burned for that card is retrieved from the blood bank by the vampire or Methuselah who played it. If the burned card was an action card, the acting minion remains untapped. If the card was a strike card, the minion chooses another strike. => same action can be played again, same action mod cannot Rewind Time [tem]: Burn an action card as it is played. That card has no effect (the acting minion is not tapped). => same action can be played again? I think so, but i'm not sure. Iron Heart [pot][pre]: Burn an action modifier that requires Presence as it is played. That card has no effect. Any cost paid is retrieved. [POT][PRE]: As above, but burn an action modifier that requires Dominate. =>same action mod cannot be played again? After a burned Conditioning can you still play Bonding? the Jones [SER] Cancel the opposing minion's strike as it is declared. Any blood or pool cost burned for that strike is retrieved from the blood bank by the vampire or Methuselah who played it. The opposing minion gets a new opportunity to declare a strike. A vampire may play only one The Jones at superior each round. So the longer version of my question is do RW, IH and the Jones have the same effect as DI for their specific card type. Or something like that :-) Jeroen on self-imposed sleep deprivation

jeroen rombouts wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > > jeroen rombouts wrote: > > > Short Q: Do these 3 cards function in the same way? > > > > 1) Include the whole message in the message. Don't depend > > on the subject line to start or finish the context. > > sorry. I was in a hurry. Ah. Rule 0: don't post when you're in a hurry (I've burned myself by not observing this rule :-) > > 2) They're all playable "when a <specific sort of> card is played", > > so they're the same that way. Are you thinking of something > > specific? > > Direct Intervention > Master: out-of-turn. Burn a minion card as it is played. That card has no > effect, and any blood or pool cost burned for that card is retrieved from > the blood bank by the vampire or Methuselah who played it. If the burned > card was an action card, the acting minion remains untapped. If the card was > a strike card, the minion chooses another strike. > > => same action can be played again, same action mod cannot The latter is a standing rule. [1.6.3.2] Since nothing in DI's card text overrides it, it remains true. > Rewind Time > [tem]: Burn an action card as it is played. That card has no effect (the > acting minion is not tapped). > > => same action can be played again? I think so, but i'm not sure. Yes. There's no rule (nor card text) prohibiting the same action card. > Iron Heart > [pot][pre]: Burn an action modifier that requires Presence as it is played. > That card has no effect. Any cost paid is retrieved. > [POT][PRE]: As above, but burn an action modifier that requires Dominate. > > =>same action mod cannot be played again? After a burned Conditioning can > you still play Bonding? [1.6.3.2] remains true, since no card text on IH overrides it. No part of Conditioning applies when it is canceled, including the prohibition against other +bleed modifiers. The acting minion is free to play Bonding. > the Jones > [SER] Cancel the opposing minion's strike as it is declared. Any blood or > pool cost burned for that strike is retrieved from the blood bank by the > vampire or Methuselah who played it. The opposing minion gets a new > opportunity to declare a strike. A vampire may play only one The Jones at > superior each round. > > So the longer version of my question is do RW, IH and the Jones have the > same effect as DI for their specific card type. Or something like that :-) There is no "DI" effect in that context - only the basic rules. The basic rules do not restrict action cards or strike in the same manner that they restrict action modifiers (and reaction cards). [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Direct Intervention > > Master: out-of-turn. Burn a minion card as it is played. That card has no > > effect, and any blood or pool cost burned for that card is retrieved from > > the blood bank by the vampire or Methuselah who played it. If the burned > > card was an action card, the acting minion remains untapped. If the card was > > a strike card, the minion chooses another strike. > > > > => same action can be played again, same action mod cannot > > The latter is a standing rule. [1.6.3.2] > Since nothing in DI's card text overrides it, it remains true. Just for clarity's sake, after DI is played, if the cancelled card was an action card, the acting minion is free to take any action (as if the original action card had never been played)? I assume that any action modifiers that were played are lost with the action card? If the DI targets the action modifier though, then the methuselah is *not* permitted to play another copy of the same card? Would this also apply to a reaction cards? Regards, Mike Nudd VEKN Prince of London

Mike Nudd wrote: > Just for clarity's sake, after DI is played, if the cancelled card was > an action card, the acting minion is free to take any action (as if > the original action card had never been played)? I assume that any Right. Unless there's some action card printed that says "one one <this card> can be played in a game." or some other restriction based on card play rather than action performed. > action modifiers that were played are lost with the action card? No. No action modifiers could have been played, since the action card was canceled when played. > If the DI targets the action modifier though, then the methuselah is > *not* permitted to play another copy of the same card? Would this also > apply to a reaction cards? The restriction on Modifiers (and Reactions) is per minion, not per Methuselah. [1.6.3.2], [1.6.3.5] [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <36e685b2.02022...@posting.google.com>, Mike Nudd <mi...@vekn.org.uk> writes: >Just for clarity's sake, after DI is played, if the cancelled card was >an action card, the acting minion is free to take any action (as if >the original action card had never been played)? Sure. > I assume that any >action modifiers that were played are lost with the action card? Moot, because you play DI as the action card is played - which precedes the playing of action modifiers. -- James Coupe but I lust after the raw pow0r of c. PGP 0x5D623D5D together with the humping great EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 elephant arse of gnome. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D - Vashti

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<2CDZ7SRH...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > In message <36e685b2.02022...@posting.google.com>, Mike Nudd > <mi...@vekn.org.uk> writes: > >Just for clarity's sake, after DI is played, if the cancelled card was > >an action card, the acting minion is free to take any action (as if > >the original action card had never been played)? > > Sure. Is it correct to say "as if the original [type] card had never been played"? If the action modifier is DI'ed, and not the action, the acting minion cannot play a new copy of the same action modifier, can he? If that's the case, and he can't, then it isn't as though he never played that first modifier card. Why the difference between actions and modifiers regarding the effects of DI? Or am I wrong about that? If the acting minion can play the same action card again, the logic seems to be that you go ahead as though the first action card was never played at all (otherwise the NRA rule would kick in, right?). Why isn't that same logic correct for action modifiers? Or, the other side of that question, if the acting minion cannot play the same modifier again after the first was DI'ed (due to 1.6.3.2), then what allows for him to get around the NRA rule to play the same action card again? A little confused, p.

"Patrick Harris" <pha...@sfopera.com> wrote in message news:2d0d1f86.02022...@posting.google.com... > > Why the difference between actions and modifiers regarding the effects > of DI? Or am I wrong about that? > The difference is that there isn't any restriction about playing two of the same action. There is a restriction about playing two of the same action modifier on the same action. The card *is* considered to have been played, but it has no effect. > If the acting minion can play the same action card again, the logic > seems to be that you go ahead as though the first action card was > never played at all (otherwise the NRA rule would kick in, right?). > Nope. The card is played, the action never resolves. NRA does not "tag" a vampire until the action is blocked or resolves. Cf. Psychomachia (<pre>).

In message <2d0d1f86.02022...@posting.google.com>, Patrick Harris <pha...@sfopera.com> writes: <Direct Intervention> >Is it correct to say "as if the original [type] card had never been >played"? If the action modifier is DI'ed, and not the action, the >acting minion cannot play a new copy of the same action modifier, can >he? Correct. >If that's the case, and he can't, then it isn't as though he >never played that first modifier card. It isn't, no. But for Action cards, it's usually a reasonable approximation. >Why the difference between actions and modifiers regarding the effects >of DI? Or am I wrong about that? Because the rules (not DI) limit the playing of repeat action modifiers. The cards have all still been played, they've just had no effect *other* than to note they've been played, basically. >If the acting minion can play the same action card again, the logic >seems to be that you go ahead as though the first action card was >never played at all (otherwise the NRA rule would kick in, right?). As Chris notes, NRA kicks in with action resolution. The easy way to remember this is to think of Mask of a Thousand Faces. Only the *last* minion, the one who was *really* acting the whole time (thematically speaking) is the one that gets tainted by NRA. But in rule terms, he's not the one who started the action - so NRA doesn't kick in as the action starts. >Why isn't that same logic correct for action modifiers? Or, the other >side of that question, if the acting minion cannot play the same >modifier again after the first was DI'ed (due to 1.6.3.2), then what >allows for him to get around the NRA rule to play the same action card >again? In short, that the rules are different. [ quoted text not captured ]