rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

VTES moments of 2008?

35 messages from 19 participants · 03 January 2009 – 13 January 2009
original thread on Google Groups

a.gyh...@gmail.com

So a year has passed and think there has been a lot of stuff going on in the tournament scene and around kitchen tables this year. New cards, new combos and so on. What was your favourite innovation of 2008? This year has seen a lot of tweaks on historicaly strong decks, a new card here and a new card there. For me one of the coolest innovations has to be Ambulance in the AAA (Anson, Anneke, Alexandra) deck. Put Ambulance and Aching Beauty together in the same deck and you leave your opponent to make more decisions, which is really good - The more decisions your opponents need to do the more likely they are to take the wrong ones! What card (crypt and/or library) had the biggest impact on deck construction overall this year? For the crypt part, I got to say that Anarch Convert has made anarchism both easier and sexier (hello Laurie! When the new Shroudfilms coming out?). Its a simple yet perfect design and I give a salute to LSJ for this masterpiece. As for the library part - This is still something I have a problem deciding. I have no idea. What was your favourite play, game event (or something along those lines) in 2008? Mine is defenitly when someone backousts my friend Martin because he gets so pissed off he's *this* close to throw the table through nearest window. I've seen this happen twice and its an explosion of motions well worth to pay for to see :) You can feel the frustration hang in the air when it happens. What are you looking forward to this year? Any wishes? That theres a new imbued set. Kidding! Kidding! Or am I? What I do look forward to though is a new bloodline set! That would totaly rock my world to bits. Yours truly /alex fnurp http://intelliganism.blogg.se - VTES Strategical nonsense

huruem_...@hotmail.com

2008 was a pretty weird year for me, when I think about it. On one hand we've been given 2 major expansion (the anarch and KOT) and on the other hand, I think I've never seen more stupid archetypes on the same table with extremely bad decks. I thought all these expansion might have made tables less... contrasted... but apparently not. For the card that had the most important impact so far, I'd say Anarch convert too. Having crypts adding new mechanisms to the game was great. What I'd like to see, is turned official deck switching touneys (the one deck per round format) and a new laibon set. Arthur

Reyda !

On 3 jan, 06:35, a.gyhles...@gmail.com wrote: > What was your favourite innovation of 2008? i can't see any innovation this year, sorry... Nothing really new since the khazar archetype -_- > What card (crypt and/or library) had the biggest impact on deck > construction overall this year? -can't think of a particular one. Even anarch convert, at the end of the day, is a funny gimmick that helps a concept but is no panacea (plus i can't really understand how a 1 cap caitiff can convince an 8 cap to embrace anarchy ?). Tupdog on the other hand, while slightly overpowered, was a really good idea, brilliantly executed :) -for the library part, i would say that at last the idea of those "more than 1 stealth action" (à la "guard duty") becomes a standard with heroic might or . What took the designers so long ? :) (here i am waiting for people arguing that magic of the smith or night moves are here since the base set. I don't care, i know that all the good ideas where already there in the base set. Thank you.) > What was your favourite play, game event (or something along those > lines) in 2008? the Eurodraft, nice tournament, nice people, even if (contrary to what is written on the white wolf page report) i transfered out so that the first seed would not win the game by doing nothing. > > What are you looking forward to this year? Any wishes? innovation. > That theres a new imbued set. > Kidding! Kidding! > > Or am I? > i'd say : why not ? there is plenty of room for new hunters and their dedicated equipment... > What I do look forward to though is a new bloodline set! That would > totaly rock my world to bits. i'm not really sure it's a good idea. Bloodlines was great, let's simply run a reprint :) most of the "new cards" emulate stuff that were previously only playable by bloodlines. Compare Covincraft and Wrong & crosswise ... A new, smal set focusing on allies could be cool :)

LSJ

Reyda ! wrote: > (plus i can't really understand how a 1 cap caitiff can convince an 8 > cap to embrace anarchy ?). Eh? He doesn't. A Methuselah convinces the 8 cap to embrace anarchy. See "remove from game" text on Anarch Convert.

Peter D Bakija

On Jan 5, 1:18 am, "Reyda !" <Rey...@gmail.com> wrote: > i can't see any innovation this year, sorry... Nothing really new > since the khazar archetype -_- I dunno--I'd think that "Anarch decks being remotely viable" brings a lot new to the game. > -can't think of a particular one. Even anarch convert, at the end of > the day, is a funny gimmick that helps a concept but is no panacea It is a good, interesting new mechannic (i.e. using your crypt to do something other than make a vampire) that solves a lot of the basic problems that plagued Anarch decks for a long time. How that qualifies as "funny gimmick" as opposed to "interesting new mechanic" is beyond me. > (plus i can't really understand how a 1 cap caitiff can convince an 8 > cap to embrace anarchy ?). Who cares? It is a viable, good new mechanic that helps make Anarch decks playable. Does it matter if it "makes sense"? -Peter

coincoi...@hotmail.com

> > What was your favourite innovation of 2008? > Everybody gets to be 2nd in the final table, except the winner. It is at least the most significant evolution of the year, although I am not sure if it is a good or a bad one. > > What card (crypt and/or library) had the biggest impact on deck > construction overall this year? > I suppose it is Khazar's diary. Although it has come out in 2007, the very strong archetypes with it only began this year. Anarch convert might get a close call, though. I would couple him with crimethinc which is full of possibility. > > What was your favourite play, game event (or something along those > lines) in 2008? > My first NAC was a lot of fun. Special cheers to everybody in Montreal and any people who was attending. > What are you looking forward to this year? Any wishes? > Give Laibon very competitive decks because now, when looking at it, they are the worst one, more or less. (Especially that the 4 independant clans each have now more than one archetype of a kind)

acheronni...@gmail.com

On 5 Sty, 17:41, coincoinmas...@hotmail.com wrote: > > What was your favourite innovation of 2008? Scourge of Enochians

Kevin M.

a.gyh...@gmail.com wrote: > What was your favourite innovation of 2008? Something must be said here about Revolutionary Council aka The Death Star Cannon. The fact that this card won both Day1 *and* Day2 of the NAC is simply incredible and such a feat may never again be repeated. Although I really like "If you don't win the final, you all come in 2nd place." > What card (crypt and/or library) had the biggest > impact on deck construction overall this year? Vessel. Stupid, bad Vessel. It isn't even close. Sigh. :( > What was your favourite play, game event > (or something along those lines) in 2008? My favorite *personal* play had to be at the NAC in Montreal, where on Day1 I was playing (what else?) Kindred Spirits Bleed http://members.cox.net/kjm1971/decks/The%20Unknown%20Ideal.txt preying on my good buddy Preston Poulter who was playing his finely tuned Cesewayo deck. It was turn 5 and Cese had No Secrets and a Sport Bike. I bled and could only pull 3 stealth to his (eventual) 4 intercept, but of course I topdecked the Elder Impersonation which allowed Uncle George with an Obf master to explain to Cese how there actually were secrets that Cese didn't know. Oh, did I say that Preston was at 5 pool at the time and my bleed was for 5? And that in Round2 and 3 when Cese got 1GW+5VP and Preston came in *SIXTH PLACE* that Uncle George proceeded to get all the hate? >:) > What are you looking forward to this year? Any wishes? I wish well on all my VTES enemies and even weller on all my VTES friends, especially if you come to the Origins convention. http://www.originsgames.com/ I wish that my NAQ http://members.cox.net/vtesinlv comes off without a hitch and that everyone enjoys themselves. I wish that all VTES sets this year (and every year) have no printing errors. I wish that bad players would stop self-ousting in the moronic belief that they just gained something. Hint: You don't EVER gain ANYTHING from self-ousting. I wish that we would get a Group1 expansion set, with ~100 Advanced Group1&2 vampires, and that White Wolf promotes it heavily to their non-VTES Camarilla Fan Club. I wish that Nergal would further my education on all things Infernal and Daimonionish. I wish that Hugh Angseesing would take me seriously. I wish that I am again at a table with Pascal and he helps me figure out how to kill him. I wish that stupid Ben Peal leaves me alone at all tournaments where we are both playing. >:( I wish that I hit the Megabucks(TM) so that I can host the NAC and ***pay for everyone's flight, everyone's hotel room, the open bar, and provide 10 boxes of prize support for every tournament.*** Pray for me. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/ Las Vegas NAQ 2009! http://members.cox.net/vtesinlv/

jason...@iinet.net.au

> I wish that we would get a Group1 expansion set, with ~100 Advanced > Group1&2 vampires, and that White Wolf promotes it heavily to their > non-VTES Camarilla Fan Club. The Camarilla game is set in the Reqiuem WoD. Old WoD is dead to the Cam, I'm afraid.

Curevei

On Jan 5, 8:37 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > > What was your favourite play, game event > > (or something along those lines) in 2008? You seemed to enjoy being ousted by Jake Washington.

Jadasc

[ quoted text not captured ] Based on the attendance at this year's charity Sabbat LARP at ICC, I wouldn't be so sure. -- Jason. (US2002021104, as it happens.)

ben...@gmail.com

SHROUD OF ABSENCE - Ben Peal

jason...@iinet.net.au

> Based on the attendance at this year's charity Sabbat LARP at ICC, I > wouldn't be so sure. > -- Jason. (US2002021104, as it happens.) Sabbat makes a fun LARP. And old WoD is far superior to new WoD imo. If WW proposed the Cam swap back to old WoD tomorrow, I'm sure the Cam would have people rejoining in droves. But the simple fact is that the Cam is an official partner to WW, and WW makes its money by selling new Requiem books, not old WoD books in second hand stores. So for WW to promote an old WoD setting to a club they want to be spending its money on new WoD books is something of a pipedream. That's what I meant by "dead". Don't get me wrong, people still love old WoD, and most would prefer it given the choice I suspect. But the official party line is that "Requiem is the duck's nuts", WW won't be spending much effort promoting an old WoD product to their new WoD fanclub. Which is sad, but there it is.

Kevin M.

[ quoted text not captured ] What does that have to do with marketing the WW product which will forever stay in the oWoD to club members which almost all grew up with the oWoD? [ quoted text not captured ]

Kevin M.

jason...@iinet.net.au wrote: > But the simple fact is that the Cam is an official partner to WW, and > WW makes its money by selling new Requiem books, not old WoD books in > second hand stores. So for WW to promote an old WoD setting to a club > they want to be spending its money on new WoD books is something of a > pipedream. WW already promotes an oWoD setting -- V:TES -- to everyone that hits their website. AS HAS BEEN SAID MANY TIMES BEFORE, WW doesn't care what product you buy from them, as long as you stay within the WW family. (I would certainly be willing to have Oscar prove me wrong by saying that this statement is wrong, but I don't think it is so I don't think he will.) [ quoted text not captured ]

Kevin M.

[ quoted text not captured ] Shaddup, you. It wasn't my fault that Tasha Morgan finally went out on a date with Jake Washington! There was nothing I could do about it! [ quoted text not captured ]

ben...@gmail.com

Some idiot wrote: > SHROUD OF ABSENCE > > - Ben Peal Er...yeah...that should've been in that reprint thread..

jason...@iinet.net.au

> What does that have to do with marketing the WW product which will forever > stay in the oWoD to club members which almost all grew up with the oWoD? Well, this is not exactly true. A good 60-70% of the club (in my neck of the woods at least) is too young to have played old WoD. You talk to them about Kiasyd or Tzimisce and they don't know what the hell you're on about. It makes me feel like a crusty old bugger. That may be a localised phenomenon however. >WW already promotes an oWoD setting -- V:TES -- to everyone that hits their website. Yes, I suppose this is true in a very scattershot fashion. >AS HAS BEEN SAID MANY TIMES BEFORE, WW doesn't care what product you buy from them, as long as you stay within the WW family. Well, I don't really buy that. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The old Masquerade RPG is a dead system. Requiem (aside from some mis- spelt names) actually has very little in common with Masquerade. The system used in Masquerade LARP is completely different to Requiem LARP. They are two very different beasts, with not a heck of a lot in common aside from the fact that they're both about Vampires (and the aforementioned mis-spelt names) Why would WW spend money/time/effort promoting a ccg based on a dead, out of print system, when they have a live, constantly expanding, current system they can promote instead? They only have limited budgets/resources to promote. Why spend trying to get a fringe market (larpers) to buy into an even tighter fringe market (vtes players), when they can spend trying to get a huge market (roleplayers) to buy into their new setting? (requiem, new WoD) It just don't make a lot of sense, fiscally. VTES isn't a huge earner for them. They probably of the opinion that they're better off targetting the big dollars and leaving promotion of VTES within the Cam with the few crossover members of both groups (like me). It's a hard sell, btw. LARPers and CCGers both seem to share a disdain for each others hobbies, each considering the other group super-nerdy ("oh you like to play dress-ups?" vs "go back to your pokemons") - the irony of which should be lost on no-one present. :) jase

The Lasombra

On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 19:43:14 -0800 (PST), jasonsvtes wrote: >VTES isn't a huge earner >for them. You're wrong there. Prior to the CCP merger it was the most profitable product line.

jason...@iinet.net.au

> You're wrong there. > Prior to the CCP merger it was the most profitable product line. Wow. I'm realy surprised to hear that. How does it rank post-merger?

floppyzedolfin

On 3 jan, 06:35, a.gyhles...@gmail.com wrote: > So a year has passed and think there has been a lot of stuff going on > in the tournament scene and around kitchen tables this year. New > cards, new combos and so on. > > What was your favourite innovation of 2008? Turning Anarchs into something viable was excellent. I hope we'll see Laibons (or at least the Osebos, Akunanse, and Guruhis) powered up that way some day. > What card (crypt and/or library) had the biggest impact on deck > construction overall this year? Couldn't find one. But I'm pretty sure some KoT new cards are really strong. I'd say Deep Song. > What was your favourite play, game event (or something along those > lines) in 2008? Playing at the EC and the NAC were two different but very enjoyable moments. Kevin, there's no way I tell you how to kill me again. It's hard enough to get a 2-3 loose-deal with your grand-prey work out, I'm happy I've done it once! Next time, Watenda will rush your Selma. On turn 2 :) Plus the Eurodraft was really nice. Players were incredibly cool! > What are you looking forward to this year? Any wishes? Tournament organizations seemed perfect to me, just continue. About the new cards.. I love 'em! Great job, Scott. > That theres a new imbued set. Bah, why not?

Blooded Sand

On Jan 7, 11:43 am, floppyzedolfin <floppyzedol...@gmail.com> wrote: > > That theres a new imbued set. > > Bah, why not? Solitaire sucks?

librarian

[ quoted text not captured ] But I heard it way over here! best - chris

Kevin M.

> jason...@iinet.net.au wrote: >> TheLa...@hotmail.com wrote: >>> jason...@iinet.net.au wrote: >>> It just don't make a lot of sense, fiscally. >>> VTES isn't a huge earner for them. >> >> You're wrong there. >> Prior to the CCP merger it was the most profitable product line. > > Wow. I'm realy surprised to hear that. How does it rank post-merger? You seem to know all about White Wolf's profit margins, Jason. Why don't you tell us? [ quoted text not captured ]

Blooded Sand

On Jan 8, 12:31 am, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > > jasonsv...@iinet.net.au wrote: > >> TheLasom...@hotmail.com wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Snarky..... ;)

jason...@iinet.net.au

> You seem to know all about White Wolf's profit margins, Jason. Why don't > you tell us? Well, obviously I don't, though I swear I've read on this group that VTES wasn't a huge earner. The point still remains, however. [ quoted text not captured ]

Kevin M.

jason...@iinet.net.au wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] With all due respect, you REALLY aren't paying attention, are you? You say that "I have endorsed and supported this game for 15 years," yet you didn't know that WW chose to keep the oWoD alive -- in VTES -- when they were closing out every other part of the oWoD? Could that decision be due to the fact that, assuming VTES is profitable, which it probably is since they have eventually sold out *every* expansion they have ever printed, there is some fiscal sense, as well as prestige and goodwill in having the second-oldest CCG as part of your catalogue? Keeping the CCG that already has solid rules and structure foundations -- as well as a consistent and supportive fan-base -- instead of creating a new CCG that may or may not be successful seems to be the rational way to go. There is NO reason to replace it with something else at this point and risk failure. [ quoted text not captured ]

jason...@iinet.net.au

> With all due respect, you REALLY aren't paying attention, are you? > > You say that "I have endorsed and supported this game for 15 years," yet > you didn't know that WW chose to keep the oWoD alive -- in VTES -- when > they were closing out every other part of the oWoD? With all due respect, I think you're the one not paying attention. I said that "The old Masquerade RPG is a dead system." and "Old WoD is dead to the Cam." I said nothing about WoD being completely dead, I spoke in context of the Camarilla LARP club. That was an assumption on your part, and a false one, given that I've played VTES since it was called Jyhad and Masquerade since 2nd Ed, and am quite obviously aware that the old WoD paradigm lives on in VTES. It obviously does make fiscal sense to keep VTES alive or WW simply wouldn't do it. However, marketing the game to the Cam has two distinct problems, as I've mentioned - a) The setting of VTES (that being old WoD) has little/no relevance to much of the newer player base in the Cam, and b) in my experience, there is traditionally very little crossover betweens CCGers and LARPers. I've played in Cam games all over the world for the last decade, and I've met two Cammies who regularly play VTES in all that time. > Keeping the CCG that already has solid rules and structure foundations -- > as well as a consistent and supportive fan-base -- instead of creating a > new CCG that may or may not be successful seems to be the rational way to > go. There is NO reason to replace it with something else at this point > and risk failure. Kevin, at no point have I endorsed a replacement of VTES. I am simply trying to explain to you why I don't think marketing VTES directly to the Cam would work, and offering a supposition as to why WW have refused to do so. The face of the club has changed significantly since the hard reset at the end of "old chron" and the birth of the Requiem venue - many of the newer members have no concept of old WoD, and I'm not sure how marketing a game that has very little relevance to the current club (aside from the broad concept that both games are about vampires) is really going to work. Again, this supposition is based on my own experience of the club for the past ten years, and my own national game (the australian game). Perhaps the trend of a large departure of older members and a large influx of newer guys and gals hasn't happened in America - an American cammie will have a better idea, but I suspect the trend is the same. I'm not trying to be negative, but I'm not sure your impression of the Camarilla club is accurate. jase

librarian

jason...@iinet.net.au wrote: >> With all due respect, you REALLY aren't paying attention, are you? >> >> You say that "I have endorsed and supported this game for 15 years," yet >> you didn't know that WW chose to keep the oWoD alive -- in VTES -- when >> they were closing out every other part of the oWoD? > > With all due respect, I think you're the one not paying attention. I > said that "The old Masquerade RPG is a dead system." and "Old WoD is > dead to the Cam." I said nothing about WoD being completely dead, I > spoke in context of the Camarilla LARP club. That was an assumption on > your part, and a false one, given that I've played VTES since it was > called Jyhad and Masquerade since 2nd Ed, and am quite obviously aware > that the old WoD paradigm lives on in VTES. Someone much smarter than me (not too hard...) said that basically CCGs and LARPS are opposite ends of the gaming scale. A LARP is a story upon which you casually drape some rules; a CCG is a huge rule book upon which you casually drape some story. Makes sense if you consider every distinct card as another entry into the rule book. So I agree - LARPers and CCGers don't tend to crossover too much, even when the setting is the same. That said, Dennis Lien, who is a dynamite VTES player, has been known to LARP. But like many of us, he loves all games - board, RPG TT, RPG LA, CCG, etc etc. best - chris

Kevin M.

[snip unrelated garbage, usual with most of Jason's replies] jason...@iinet.net.au wrote: > Kevin M. <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote: >> With all due respect, you REALLY aren't paying attention, are you? >> >> You say that "I have endorsed and supported this game for 15 years," >> yet you didn't know that WW chose to keep the oWoD alive -- in VTES >> -- when they were closing out every other part of the oWoD? > > With all due respect, I think you're the one not paying attention. > I said that "The old Masquerade RPG is a dead system." and > "Old WoD is dead to the Cam." I said nothing about WoD being > completely dead, I spoke in context of the Camarilla LARP club. > That was an assumption on your part, and a false one [snip] Read the question. I never said that you said the WoD was completely dead. I asked you a rhetorical question designed to illicit a response on your part which you might think about before you continued making a fool of yourself, as you have in all the threads to which you have responded. So, it wasn't a false assumption on my part, but rather an attempt to prop up what *you* wanted to discuss, rather than discussing what was wrote, a sure sign of a troll, or a fool. Strike One. jason...@iinet.net.au wrote: > Kevin M. <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote: >> You seem to know all about White Wolf's profit margins, Jason. >> Why don't you tell us? > > Well, obviously I don't, though I swear I've read on this group that > VTES wasn't a huge earner. The point still remains, however. No, it doesn't. Especially since you later say > It obviously does make fiscal sense to keep VTES alive > or WW simply wouldn't do it. So which is it? Nice troll. Strike Two. jason...@iinet.net.au wrote: > Why would WW spend money/time/effort promoting a ccg based > on a dead, out of print system, when they have a live, constantly > expanding, current system they can promote instead? Funny that. They DO spend money/time/effort promoting a CCG based on a dead, out-of-print system. It's called **Vampire: The Eternal Struggle**. Whis makes your statement of > Kevin, at no point have I endorsed a replacement of VTES. ...rather weak, don't you think? jason...@iinet.net.au wrote: > I'm not trying to be negative, but I'm not sure your impression > of the Camarilla club is accurate. I'm not sure your impression of White Wolf or of V:TES is accurate, so your notions of the Camarilla Club aren't to be trusted either. Strike Three. Again, you divert. Again, you keep talking about something that you want to rather than what was said. Again, you blame it on someone else. Given your poor technique and the fact that you are not a child anymore, I would have thought for sure that by now someone would have alerted you to how weak it is, but perhaps the fact that MANY people here have tried to explain it to you is a clue? A VTES Haiku by Kevin Mergen Please don't waste our time Now, too many newsgroup trolls Longing for The Ray [ quoted text not captured ]

Kushiel

On Jan 12, 3:34 am, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote: > A VTES Haiku > by Kevin Mergen > > Please don't waste our time > Now, too many newsgroup trolls > Longing for The Ray Real haiku has a reference to a season in it. troll posts roll our eyes bitter snow falling fallow rage our only warmth John Eno

OrgPlay

[ quoted text not captured ] Because V:TES is a great game with an even better community behind it. There shouldn't be a discussion beyond this :) Oscar Garza CCP|White Wolf

John Flournoy

On Jan 11, 11:00 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: > So I agree - LARPers and CCGers don't tend to crossover too much, even > when the setting is the same. That said, Dennis Lien, who is a dynamite > VTES player, has been known to LARP. But like many of us, he loves all > games - board, RPG TT, RPG LA, CCG, etc etc. I'd actually known Matt Morgan via LARPing long before either of us ever saw each other at a VTES table. > best - > > chris -John Flournoy

Kevin M.

John Flournoy <carn...@gmail.com> wrote: > librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote: >> So I agree - LARPers and CCGers don't tend to crossover too much, >> even when the setting is the same. That said, Dennis Lien, who is a >> dynamite VTES player, has been known to LARP. But like many of us, >> he loves all games - board, RPG TT, RPG LA, CCG, etc etc. > > I'd actually known Matt Morgan via LARPing long before either of us > ever saw each other at a VTES table. LOLL stop stop stop stop Matt Morgan LARPed? What did he play? Some technomage? ;) And what did *you* play, John? [ quoted text not captured ]

jason...@iinet.net.au

> So, it wasn't a false assumption on my part, but rather an attempt to prop > up what *you* wanted to discuss, rather than discussing what was wrote, a > sure sign of a troll, or a fool. Do you always get this bent out of shape when you're wrong? That's another one of those "rhetorical questions designed to illicit a response on your part which you might think about before you continued digging a hole for yourself" deals. > So which is it? Nice troll. Strike Two. It can be both. A product can make money and still not be a huge earner. There is room in between the two states of being. But the point does still remain, which is this: it doesn't make much sense to market a fringe dwelling game to a fringe dwelling sub-sect of roleplayers when the two games have virtually nothing in common. For all your bluster, you still can't refute that - in fact you haven't even attempted to refute that, and have now resorted to personal attacks instead. > Funny that. They DO spend money/time/effort promoting a CCG based on a > dead, out-of-print system. It's called **Vampire: The Eternal Struggle**. Their direct promotion of VTES to the Camarilla, which was the context in which this statement was made (nice skip, by the way), has been virtually non-existent. So actually, no, they don't. > Whis makes your statement of > > > Kevin, at no point have I endorsed a replacement of VTES. > > ...rather weak, don't you think? Not at all. I have never said anything even remotely related to the topic of replacing VTES. I cannot make myself more plain: you have literally pulled this out of thin air. This is a false assumption on your part, do you understand this? Please, show me one sentence, one word that I have written where I have endorsed the replacement of this game. I have simply stated that marketing VTES to the Cam doesn't seem to make much sense; this is possibly why WW's marketing department hasn't undertaken the task.If my tone came across as aggressive or implied that I was putting you down, I can only assure you that this was not my intent. I was simply trying to explain why VTES and the Cam just don't really mix, since you obviously have very little/no experience with LARPers, the Camarilla or the Requiem setting as a whole. There's nothing wrong with admitting "oh okay, I didn't know that" and play on instead of making unecessary personal attacks and constructing arguements on a foundation of baseless assumptions. I'm not trying to put you down, but your idea doesn't make much sense. It's not the end of the world, dude. Just wear it and move on.